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A Nice and Easy Functional Equation 

SyberMath
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30 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 70   
@aleks0id
@aleks0id 3 месяца назад
Why can’t we consider a family of functions of kind f(x) = 1 if P(x) f(x) = -1 otherwise ?
@red0guy
@red0guy Год назад
If f is defined from Z to Z then f (x) = 1 for evens and -1 for odds will work. Otherwise, as in the video.
@ibraheemkhan6660
@ibraheemkhan6660 Год назад
Yes this shows that his last step wasn't correct When he got f(x)^2=1 You cannot jump and say f(x)=1 for all x Or f(x)=-1 for all x you can only say that [f(x)=1 or -1] for all x So some values of f are 1 and some are -1 He needed to add one more step to fix it Set x to 2y (which has limitations if it was from Z to Z)
@ibraheemkhan6660
@ibraheemkhan6660 Год назад
The last step wasn't correct When you got f(x)^2=1 You can not jump and say f(x)=1 for all x Or f(x)=-1 for all x you can only say that [f(x)=1 or -1] for all x Meaning thatsome values of f are 1 and some are -1 He needed to add one more step to fix it Set x to 2y This shows that if the function was from Z to Z, you can not say 2y contains all the numbers, so you'd have more solutions like it was mentioned in other comments
@franzlyonheart4362
@franzlyonheart4362 2 месяца назад
Exactly
@AlgebraicAnalysis
@AlgebraicAnalysis 25 дней назад
Kind of interesting from an algebraic perspective. Setting x, y = 0, you have f(0) = 1. So you have f(x-x) = f(x)f(x) -> f(x) = -1 or 1. Lastly, you have f(0-y) = f(0)f(y) -> f(-y) = f(y) -> f(x+y) = f(x)f(-y) = f(x)f(y). Considering the domain to just be some additive (abelian) group G, this means we have a symmetric homomorphism into the trivial multiplicative group {1, -1}. The kernel K is a normal subgroup, and the symmetry tells us that it has equivalent left and right cosets i.e. g + K = K - g -> K = g + K - g = g + (g + K) = 2g + K -> ... -> 2g is in K for all g in G. What does this say about the domain? One is that any "even" element, i.e. an element expressible as the sum of 2 elements, maps to 1. If the domain were the reals or rationals, this would be the whole set. If this were the integers, this would mean every even integer maps to 1, but what about the odd ones? f(2n+1) = f(2n)f(1) = 1*f(1) = f(1) -> every odd integer maps to the same thing. This gives us one of 2 options: f(x) = 1 (this includes the zero function since we're just identically mapping to an identity), or f(n) = (-1)^n
@JR13751
@JR13751 Год назад
How do you know if value of the function is not 1 for some values and -1 for other values?
@RexxSchneider
@RexxSchneider Год назад
You don't know, because the domain and image were never defined. The function can't be -1 for reals, but could be -1 for the odd values if the domain was the integers.
@JR13751
@JR13751 Год назад
@@RexxSchneider why can't the function be 1 for some reals and -1 for other reals?
@RexxSchneider
@RexxSchneider Год назад
@@JR13751 Because setting y = x/2 gives you f(x/2) = f(x).f(x/2). That means either f(x/2) = 0 and therefore f(x) =0 for all x; or f(x) = 1 for all x. Those are the only values of f which are possible for real x. If f(x) were to be -1 for some values of x then f(x/2) would also have to be -1 but (-1) ≠ (-1).(-1)
@toveirenestrand3547
@toveirenestrand3547 Год назад
For y = 0 we have f(x) = f(x)f(0), so f(0) = 1. For y = x/2 we have f(x - x/2) = f(x/2) = f (x)f(x/2) which gives f(x) = 1.
@red0guy
@red0guy Год назад
This only valid for rationals and beyond. For integer,x/2 is not necessarily an integer
@toveirenestrand3547
@toveirenestrand3547 Год назад
@@ETSIRAVE f(x) equals 1 for all values of x.
@patrickdevlin8553
@patrickdevlin8553 Год назад
This is a nice and short argument, but you need to argue that f(x) isn't 0 and that f(x/2) isn't 0. Namely, saying "A*B = A" implies B = 1 or A=0, so you need to handle those cases separately. But this is nice
@RexxSchneider
@RexxSchneider Год назад
@@red0guy It's actually valid over the even integers as well as the reals and beyond.
@rickdesper
@rickdesper Год назад
You haven't adequately addressed the possibility that f is not a constant function.
@RexxSchneider
@RexxSchneider Год назад
If f is from reals to reals, then I suggest that he has. Setting y=0 leads to f(0) = f(x).f(0) which admits to only two possibilities, either case (1): f(x) = 0 which is a constant function; or case (2): f(x)≠0 in which case f(0) = 1. If f(0) = 1, then setting y=x/2 leads to f(x/2) = f(x).f(x/2). So, either f(x/2)=0 and we're back to case (1) on the reals; or f(x) = 1, which is a constant function. I'd be happy to hear what constant function from reals to reals, you think could otherwise arise from that line of reasoning.
@geoffreyparfitt7003
@geoffreyparfitt7003 Год назад
I'm sure that any standard approach will show f(x) is constant, and the values 0 and 1 follow quickly.
@tontonbeber4555
@tontonbeber4555 Год назад
Take x=2y => f(y) = f(2y)f(y) => f(2y)=1 OR f(y)=0 So only 2 possible solutions : f(x)=0 or f(x)=1
@red0guy
@red0guy Год назад
If f is defined over integers if(2x) =1 does not imply f is constantly 1. Only for even values.f(2x+1) could be -1...
@tontonbeber4555
@tontonbeber4555 Год назад
@@red0guy yes, you're right ... I did assume indeed that f was defined over R. But a function over integers only , returning 1 if even and -1 if odd seems to be solution too.
@jsojustosalcedootero2388
@jsojustosalcedootero2388 Год назад
But how do you prove the function doesn’t jump from the values 1 and -1
@theelk801
@theelk801 Год назад
I might be mistaken but I think you have to assume that f is continuous, which we don’t actually do here
@red0guy
@red0guy Год назад
Suppose that f(x) =-1, then f(x -x/2)= f(x)f(x/2) => f(x/2) = - f(x/2) => f(x/2) = 0 which is not +-1, so it is a contradiction.
@jsojustosalcedootero2388
@jsojustosalcedootero2388 Год назад
@@red0guybut for real numbers we can have f(x) = (-1)^|x| f(0) is 1 and you cannot divide by 2 the odd ones (that are equal to -1)
@erikkonstas
@erikkonstas Год назад
@@jsojustosalcedootero2388 I think you are confusing the reals with the integers... also, your f(x) is non-real for non-integer x.
@red0guy
@red0guy Год назад
Is your function even satisfying the ecuation? Is floor(x-y)= floor(x)floor(y) true?
@chaosredefined3834
@chaosredefined3834 Год назад
f(x-y) = f(x)f(y) Set y = 0: f(x) = f(x)f(0) If f(x) = 0 for all x, then f(x-y) = f(x)f(y) becomes 0 = (0)(0), which works, so a solution has been found. If there exists some x such that f(x) =/= 0, then f(0) = 1. Consider x free, y = x. Then f(x - y) = f(x)f(y) => f(0) = f(x)^2 => 1 = f(x)^2. So, f(x) = 1 or -1. Note that the problem did not require continuity, so it is possible that f(x) = 1 for some values of x, but -1 for other values. Next, consider x = 0, y free. Substituting into our equation, we get f(0-y) = f(0)f(y) => f(-y) = 1 f(y) => f(-y) = f(y). Next, consider x = a, y = -b for some a and b. Substituting into the equation, we get f(a - (-b)) = f(a)f(-b) => f(a+b) = f(a)f(b). But that's our Cauchy equation, which you touched upon. So, we have f(x) = k^x for some k, and we know that f(1) = k. And since f(x) is always 1 or -1, then f(1) = 1 or -1. So, we can have f(x) = 1 or f(x) = (-1)^x. And here is where we run into a problem. Syber did not specify the domain of the problem. If the problem is Z -> Z, then (-1)^x is valid. If it's real -> real, then (-1)^x is not valid. And if it's complex -> complex then (-1)^x is valid... except we get f(1/2) = i, which breaks the part where f(x) can only be 1 or -1. So, if the problem is integers -> integers, then f(x) = 0, 1, or (-1)^x. If we are working over R -> R or C -> C, then f(x) = 0 or 1.
@red0guy
@red0guy Год назад
Just a simple comment, you do not provide an explanation on why (-1)**x is the only combination of +1 and -1 values
@ibraheemkhan6660
@ibraheemkhan6660 Год назад
​@@red0guyi think because of the cauchy equation, it has well known solutions
@ibraheemkhan6660
@ibraheemkhan6660 Год назад
Can you elaborate why (-1)^x works for C but not for R?
@chaosredefined3834
@chaosredefined3834 Год назад
@@ibraheemkhan6660 It doesn't work for C? I said it worked for Z, which is the integers. If we allow it for C, we get past the problem of things being defined (which is not valid for R), but we have the problem that f(1/2) = i, which contradicts the point that f(x) = 1 or -1 for all values of x, including 1/2.
@chaosredefined3834
@chaosredefined3834 Год назад
@@red0guy It's a cauchy equation, so it needs to be f(1)^x. The only values allowed for f(1) are 1 and -1, so we get 1^x or (-1)^x. Since 1^x is always 1, we get the two options I presented.
@koga2960
@koga2960 Год назад
Here is my rigorous solution (point out any flaws if you see them, I will read your comment but I might not reply) From f(x - y) = f(x)f(y) we can plug in y = x and get f(0) = f(x)² for all real numbers. If the function f exists for all real numbers, then f(0) exists and is a constant. plugging in x = 0 and y = 0, we get f(0)² - f(0) = 0 which means f(0) = 1 or f(0) = 0. Case 1: f(0) = 0. If f(0) = 0, then f(x)² = 0 for all real numbers x, and this implies f(x) = 0 for all real numbers x. Let's test this solution out: f(x - y) = f(x)f(y) 0 = 0*0. It works. f(x) = 0 is a solution. Case 2: f(0) = 1. Since f(x)² = f(0) = 1 for all real numbers x, then f(x) = 1 or f(x) = -1 for any given number x. (That is to say, it is possible that, for example, f(2) = 1 and f(3) = -1). However, plugging in x = 2y, we get f(y) = f(2y)f(y); and since f(y) = -1 or f(y) = 1 then f(y) is nonzero. This implies f(2y) = 1 for all real numbers y; which means that f(x) = 1 for all real numbers x. Let's test this solution out: f(x - y) = f(x)f(y) 1 = 1*1 It works. f(x) = 1 is a solution. No assumptions have been made throughout this solution. There must be no other possible solutions. The solutions are: 1. f(x) = 0 for all real numbers x; OR 2. f(x) = 1 for all real numbers x.
@ibraheemkhan6660
@ibraheemkhan6660 Год назад
Looks good to me
@actions-speak
@actions-speak 11 месяцев назад
Very nice!
@maxvangulik1988
@maxvangulik1988 Год назад
beta(x,y)=gamma(x)gamma(y)/gamma(x+y) if that was f(x+y) on the left, this might be a cool path to follow. Unfortunately I don't see how to transform it.
@rakenzarnsworld2
@rakenzarnsworld2 Год назад
f(1)=f(1)f(0) f(0)=1 f(1)=f(1)f(2) f(2)=1 f(2)=f(3)f(1) f(x)=1
@Skyler827
@Skyler827 4 месяца назад
I'd like to see some functional equations where the solution is a little more complicated
@franzlyonheart4362
@franzlyonheart4362 2 месяца назад
He didn't even get it right.
@MathOrient
@MathOrient Год назад
Awesome :)
@giuseppemalaguti435
@giuseppemalaguti435 Год назад
f(x) =sqrtf(0)
@edsonarantes7500
@edsonarantes7500 6 месяцев назад
The teacher must be Turkish.
@AlgebraicAnalysis
@AlgebraicAnalysis 25 дней назад
That matters why?
@dariosilva85
@dariosilva85 Год назад
f(x) could be -1 as well.
@SyberMath
@SyberMath Год назад
No
@dariosilva85
@dariosilva85 Год назад
@@SyberMath Set y=0 and y=x, you get two equations that you can combine into f(x)[1 - f(x)^2] = 0, and all three solutions work, f(x)=0, 1 or -1. There is no reason to exclude -1.
@RexxSchneider
@RexxSchneider Год назад
@@dariosilva85 Set y=x/2 and you get f(x/2) = f(x).f(x/2). If f is from reals to reals, then the only possibilities there are that f(x/2) = 0 [hence f(x) = 0], or f(x) = 1. You can see that f(x)=-1 does not satisfy the equation derived since (-1) ≠ (-1).(-1).
@RexxSchneider
@RexxSchneider Год назад
@@ETSIRAVE There is a slight issue with that argument, because it assumes f(0) = (-1). But what if f(0)=1, and f(x)=(-1) for x≠0? You need a little more to show that isn't a possible solution.
@ibraheemkhan6660
@ibraheemkhan6660 Год назад
@SyberMath f can be 1 for Evens and -1 for odds if the question was from Z to Z
Год назад
What is f(y) ?
@frax5051
@frax5051 Год назад
Well, what you are doing there is just plugging the value of y in the place of x so the solution is the same.
@seanfraser3125
@seanfraser3125 Год назад
Plug in y=0 to get f(x) = f(x)f(0). So either f(x)=0 or f(0)=1. In the latter case, plug in y=x to get 1 = f(0) = f(x)^2. So f(x)=1 or f(x)=-1. If f is continuous, we must have f = 0 or f = 1
@koga2960
@koga2960 Год назад
you dont need to assume that f is continuous to find this solution
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