A Professional Carpenter did THIS - I Was Shocked 

Please do not confuse the terms professional and craftsman. A professional is someone who earns money and a craftsman is someone who takes pride in the quality of their work.

In my experience I've seen far more shocking work from so called pros than dodgy diy jobs.

Continually. In particular electricians. Ever go on a sparky forum and ask a question only to be immediately jumped on by a horde of them telling you how you shouldn't be doing that? And then you look at the "shocking" work the qualified sparks have done in your house?

It’s sad how many tradespeople are either ignorant or have such little pride in their work. Thank goodness for the internet and DIYers and homeowners can access information to understand when they’re being let down. Thanks for explaining the different screws, I didn’t know any of that

Thank you for demonstrating the differences in screws. Had no idea about this before!

Exactly same experience. It is just the attitude of if you been doing something for a long time you are an expert regardless of the fact you've been doing it wrong all those years. It makes me not to want employ another builder ever again.

My own brother is a time served, experienced and very capable carpenter and I wouldn't let him hammer a single nail round my property now. His favourite saying is "Not my house". He was for many years a diligent and precise tradesperson but I have watched him over the years become more and more jaded in his profession, cutting corners at every opportunity so as to reduce the labour hours / material costs so he can increase his earnings regardless of the agreed job cost. Pure greed and no pride.

I did my whole roof (with two 2m * 1m roof lights) myself. Learnt it all from RU-vid, and it's spot on. This is horrific. But the builder who did my blockwork told me you could use any screws in joist hangers (despite me having shown him a piece of paper from Simpson saying you can't), and he was going to do some other work with screws. There's a lot of "I know best, I'm a professional" attitude out there, even when that directly contradicts what manufacturers, structural engineers or building control say...

Had the same thing with joist hangers being professionally installed using gold screws... Even when I demo'd the sheer strength problem they were oblivious to the implications... Sparks really annoy me too, given they have clearly documented standards it's rare you get one that is not just looking to lash together an install; only ever bothered if they are looking to present a job as an example for an NICEIC inspection.

The nails used on those hangers should be square twisted nails. When fitting those hangers a technique can be position the hangers with a couple of screws temporarily. Then fill in the holes with square twisted nails and finally replace the temporary screws

Nothing surprises me anymore, im in the process of fixing some shoddy work too. Good luck with it all.

Great progress. Keep it going. We like your tips and really enjoy watching the channel.

Great video. Thanks for sharing your approach to overcome the issues you found. My partner and I love watching your channel. We are in the process of a renovation project and found ourselves badly let down by our builder and have spent the last 6 months fixing the wrongs. I am tackling our roof joist this weekend. Wish me luck 🙏

Thanks Aiden! I learned a lot from this video. Please continue teaching us DIYers with these informative videos 🙏🏻

I've been an accomplished DIY'er since before puberty. One thing I learned very early is that the title "professional" gives you license to do poor quality work. I had occasion to hire a "professional union painter" once to paint an exterior wall using spray equipment. Having no experience with spray painting equipment, I was afraid I would just get paint where paint doesen't belong, so I thought it best to hire it out. He got paint on the door hardware. It would have taken, literally, 90 seconds using a phillips screwdriver to remove the hardware. When I asked him why he didn't simply remove it, he replied "That's a mechanics job. I'm a Union painter". I fired him, right then and there. I have never been ashamed of ANY of my DIY work. I am NOT a professional, and never will be. Thank you very much.

Great progress 👍👍👍 Millie!! 😸

I always wondered why use a nail instead of a screw. Thanks for explaining Aiden!

Nice one Aiden, looking sharper now the sun’s come out a bit! Thanks for the screw tips 👍

Excellent video, learnt a lot, thanks!

Thanks for all the videos, I’ve learnt a fair bit from your content. I’ve almost finished my extension, had to redo a lot of other trades work, to the point I wish I’d of done it all myself in the first place. Standards are so low with most trades I’ve met.

Great video as always

Yet again i have learned something from you. Re doing work!!!! I have had to do it loads of times, and folks like you have given me the confidence and the guidelines how to do it. It has to be something exceptional now for me to consider getting a tradie in now

Good work. Particularly important using the right technique on long span deep section rafters where particularly the long span trimmed rafter has a high end bearing load. Used the square twist nails recently and found that they really don't come out very easily!

Great video. I had to rip the tanking off one of my workshop walls. The damp proof guy had only gone and drilled the damp proof holes 2 foot under the outside ground level 🙄 now I have to do his job properly for him. But at least I now have an sds drill to add to the tool collection 😁

Top job! I've had a builder with 30 years experience look at my self build and he says he couldn't spend the time to do such a good job. I'm not that shocked at the quality of the carpentry of your roof lights, I think a contractor on a priced job may sometimes cut corners. In a month or two I should be fitting mine, so it's really good to see how they are fitted 👍👍👍

Fixing my first house up - I've had roofers, plasterers, plumbers, electricians, screeders - and I'm genuinely shocked by how shit they all are. The lack of professionalism and quality of work is mind-boggling. To add insult to injury, they act as if they're doing you a favour by turning up. I've gone through 3 lots of plasterers in 18 months. First ones were mediocre and the finish was poor and they had to come back and sand parts of the walls down. Second plasterer left my hallway/landing looking like the surface of the moon - took me days to sand it smooth. First plumbers never returned to do second fix, the next plumber was an absolute disaster and had to come back 6 or so times. All highly rated on job sites. I won't get into the no-shows and no-quotes. You only have to watch those Snag videos on RU-vid to realise where we're at. Seriously, the entire tradfe industry is utter dogshit and full of greedy, incompetent fuckwits.

Great remedial work… I would rather spend money on professional tools ⚒️ than on a tradesperson, very rarely impressed… unfortunately.

I spend maybe 25% of my working week re-doing other people's work. It drives me mad. I install gas and electric meters, and previous installers often ignore every regulation in the book, making my life twice as hard. So I feel your pain mate.

That's why I do everything myself. If I do a crap job, at least it's cheap!

I’m constantly fixing other peoples work. I’m first and second fix carpenter but I did a lot of snagging when I worked on site. I’ve seen some shocking work from all trades because of that. It’s beyond frustrating that people get paid for those bodge jobs. Especially with the timber not fitted tightly around around those frames then the shit screws used to hold them in place. I’m glad you were able to fix it.

You will never regret spending money on Simpson hardware in the overall cost of your building, our engineering company spec it all the time, great stuff and backed with design data too. Palm nailers are used a lot if using their nails in tight spaces

Those right angle drill bits are a lifesaver! The problem is in the knowing! The more you know the more you realize problems with things I guess. I’m guessing Robin didn’t do this roof though! 😂 no Friday job/ smash bang wallop in his stuff 👍🏻

It makes me sad that work like this no longer surprises me. I do as much as I can myself now, very rare is it that I don’t regret paying for a professional to do work nowadays

Great video. Definitive lecture on "nails vs screws in structural carpentry". You should rename it along those lines, then it would reach people searching on that topic.

The proper way to to this kind of roof window frame after the roof has already been made, is with using no hangers/brackets at all. Take precice measurements, then build the frame on a flat surface and finally assemble the entire frame with long screws (wt-t or similar) through the rafters (ca 8x180mm in this case or less if you drive the wt-t through the first rafter) 2-3 screws per connection (depending on the rafters size). The upper WT-T screw can be driven in on an angle (up to 45 degrees). This makes the connection even sturdier. Just make sure that you choose a proper length as per screw manufacturer guidelines.

Thanks for the video. Its taken me 2 years to put right what one crap contractor did to my house in 5 weeks. He wasted thousands of pounds of materials and bodged everything. All his new stuff was nail gunned together in some sort of spray and pray machine gun style. I have used Simpson CSA screws for a lot of simpson hangers and connectors as i have been putting things right and they are very good. Like you i like to test everything i use. The 4.0x30mm ones are quite light weight but compare reasonably to twist nails but do not overscrew them. Use a low torque setting on screwdriver mode other wise their pull out resistance is badly affected. Simpson provide load values for the screws and the 4s dont match twist nails in shear but have better pull out resistance if not overtightened. Best to check if in doubt. The 5.0s come in length 35-80mm and combined with simspon brackets and hangers make seriously strong joints. Again dont overtighten toachieve best results. They do snap in the waggle test when tested individually and not fully inserted but when used in a plate or hanger iwth others they dont waggle.

How about my so-called professional builder fixing over 100sqm of plasterboard to the insulation board? Didn't have long enough screws to reach the battens that day, and decided just to "crack on"? To correct their mistake, I used extra long drywall screws to fix the plasterboard to the battens, then I re-skimmed all the walls. Of course, I didn't get the plasterer in for that, as he couldn't spell "plumb", nevermind achieve it. Every single contractor & subbie on my last project made numerous, and often visibly horrendous mistakes, and it was the same reason every single time... they just couldn't be arsed doing it right and didn't think I'd notice. On so many occasions when I did call them out when I noticed poor workmanship, all I got in reply were lies and excuses. The usual classic was, "but we've always done it that way, and we've never had a problem". I, for one, will never outsource trade work again in my life. Even if they offered to work for free, I'd still straight arm them. Well okay... so maybe a gas engineer. But even then I'd only let them touch the gas side of appliances, and I'd sit behind them while they did their thing. Apologies to any craftsmen out there, but the whole industry is in ruins as far as I can tell.

Had a professional glazier come and do 7 windows. All the internal silicon cracked, trim on the outside downstairs wasn't properly attached and allowed water ingress, trim on the inside fell off. No certificate. Slowly redoing it all.

I've never over priced or made a fortune on a job but always corrected my mistakes for nothing as I know nothing compared to those so called professional's who's work I correct. The first thing I learned is that it's easy for those with no skill to complain about a tradesman skill's that came before them when that tradesman is not onsite rather then admit your own mistakes.

A good video. I am doing a self build. I was told by my building inspector that all the doubled up rafters needed bolting together with through bolts. I didn't use hangers. Why did they use them on yours was it a requirement or was it to cover up the shoddy cuts?

You know there's also a very good chance that person that did the framing did this on the ground so all of those places where the connectors are there's a very good chance there's a nail in there already as you pointed out there is a gap on either end I think that would be a good indicator that somebody nailed it together on the ground then had a friend's help to nail it to the other framing that was already up in the ceiling so those screws which you are very correct in pointing out they are not nearly as strong as the nails although I'm mixing apples and oranges here the nails are more flexible they're softer actually dim the screws the screws they are harder but more brittle which is why it is that you were able to bend the nail multiple times put the screw broke after just once hitting the side of it also could not see but if you were to toenail it then it would be real strong but of course you wouldn't want to toenail it if it doesn't extend to the proper length as you showed me but those Simpson plates they cover for multitude of sins so that's just Overkill if there's already Nails banged into the ends through the boards or toenails into the boards from the side and that's actually a wonderful thing actually about nails when you hammer a nail you can do this sideways now maybe that doesn't make sense to people but can I explain it to you this way do you see how those people do the skateboards alright how do you jump up into the air when you're standing on a skateboard will they have the name I forget what it's called Ollie's I think it's called that's something that is apparently a lot easier then it looks or am I saying that backwards it's a lot harder than it looks so I don't see a problem with it but then you probably have a trained eye for structural roof framing

I never new there were structural screws

Milly made an appearance ⭐️ Nice job btw My first job, was selling these products you've shown us today. Another Job done ✔️

Where we are we have specific nails and nailer for attaching hangars to the beam, that have a higher shear strength than regular nails

Are you installing a vapour barrier to the entirety of the ceiling, just wondering with the rock wool eliminating any airflow throughout the roof structure❤

If your timber is short either end then move it to one side and it's only short on one end. Hey presto, problem halved!

The other pain with redoing your rooflights is that it's so much harder to remake it from underneath than from above when the roof wasn't installed.

Exactly the reason I do all my own work. I know a handful of people who I would trust to do work on my house, but you have to book them well in advance because they’re always busy. Seen too many that’ll do merchants in the game. Hope you didn’t pay them all the money.

Redo other people's work!? Don't get me started... I'm still working through it! Really interesting info on screws... and nails to be honest... Thankfully... Luckily (unluckily... we'll see) I didn't get to examining all of the joist hangers... so just crossing my fingers!

yep had roofers MISS the entire wooden batterns or just split them out the sides

You are better doing it yourself and doing it properly 👍👍

Lets just say some top tier VELUX Certified (trained and accredited by VELUX) installers cannot install VELUX windows...

You need to document everything and " adjust " the invoice . There is no excuse for this if you pay a fair rate and receive a hack job .

What are you something I I work in the housing industry I basically sort out squeaky floors et i’ve had numerous conversations with NHBC about, square fix nails that you suggested nine times out of 10 they come out if there’s any movement in the floor or structure, they will come out we need to remove them and then put screws in because the joist hangers fall out that’s just in my experience.

Yep, I don't hire anyone anymore if I can help it, only exception is gas engineers and when working at height (though that might change soon as need to point gable end :-/ ).

Simpson CSA screws are the correct fastener when going through hangers, straps or brackets. How anyone thinks CSK scews are suitable alternatives clearly shows the standards of trade education and pride in the job are being severely eroded. Keep up the fight mate.

Pretty much every tradesman I've ever met in site has slagged off the previous. Many but not all have an 'i'll be gone' mindset. On the flip side, work is often awarded based primarily on the cheapest price. In my view money often takes precedence over workmanship on both sides. Everybody wants a quote but if you think about it, there is something's Ng to be said for the estimate and dialogue too; both have their place. Good luck getting a quote from a black cab.

Certainly an interesting take on things. I'm not going to defend the framers' use of hangers in this application. And I would have run screws the way you did. But, it appears that the skylights were added after the fact, which explains their shoddyness. To a certain extent. I also cringed at the screw heads sticking out of the hangers. I guess the main thing that bugged me is the use of the word "structural". Generally that doesn't just mean it's part of the structure. It means that the component has a critical stress or load bearing component to it. The framing of a skylight is not load bearing or stressed. It just holds up the frame of the skylight. For that purpose square twist nails are probably overkill. Although I liked those screws and hopefully I can get some of those around here! Secondly, those long screws specifically state they are for timber framing. That's a different animal than what you're doing there. Again kind of overkill.

Rockwool in between the rafters?? Not sure on that as how do you maintain the airflow through the roof? 🤷🏼‍♂️

I know my weaknesses and asked a guy to come in and fill about two centimetres of concrete skim across the width of the room about 20cm wide. I thought I'd never do as good a job as a pro. It was an absolute joke what he did. He filled to above the rest of the floor and so now at some point I'll need to somehow grid that back down to floor level if I need to cover it with more than carpet. I got a firm in to wire up solar panels and they sent the electricity down to the meter cupboard via an existing 2.5mm group which is just under the limit of what the panels in theory can generate. Luckily they did put a breaker on of the right rating but that's hardly good news. The same company raised some roof tiles while fitting the solar panels and then forgot to put them back down, so the next time it rained I had water coming into my attic space. I had another company come and fit new high efficiency double glazing units, they were honest enough to say they cracked one unit (with a nail by the look of things) and another was scratched. They came back to replace those and the new fitter seemed to be clueless with making a neat job of the silicon round the window so we are gradually scraping off his mess. I'm dreading needing to get a heat pump and have been spending ages learning about the right things to do just so I can watch them do their work. But I will say that the company who fitted other newer UPVC windows did a brilliant job (thanks Belisol) and the company that fitted our new kitchen were also really good (thanks Bemmel & Kroon).

Surely if you want specialist screws you should supply a spec list on all the materials , most of these rough necks don’t care or don’t know or both, But rarely is the work supervised or inspected, most customers are as greedy as these naff tradesmen all they want is cheap and cheaper, they have no money for construction but will pay big money for a daft kitchen or fancy car. You should name this guy put his face on a poster warn your neighbours and if you can kick him off the rest of the job. He’s getting a way with it again.

I'm not a carpenter and I'm a better carpenter than those carpenters.

I'm not sure your 'bending screws' test really works to tell us anything - other than that some fastenings are made of harder metal than others. In construction, the load on the screws or nails is not a bending one, but is a sheer load acting on the screw or nail head where it goes through the joist hanger. Obviously with any joist hangers, using the recommended fastenings is a good idea. Most framing, studwork, and roof construction is also done to a budget and with time constraints, and so the important thing is that the work is structurally sound, and the tradesman is not expected to produce immaculate joinery where it will never be on view. What's shocking to me here, because I'm a bit old school, is that brackets and joist hangers are used at all in a skylight window frame, especially where they are seen.

How did building control let it go? Should always be twist nails for hangers.i for one would not be correcting someone else's work.

I've sacked everyone I've ever had to do work in my house appart from my plasterer and had to do redo it myself. Its unbelievable how poor the quality of 95% of "tradesmen" work is. Also nothing annoys me more than empty holes on hangers.. especially when you can get 500 twist head screws for a few quid

yes! a kitten! ❤ that was really a shoddy job. do you think screws like the ones they used could have actually snapped given enough time? crazy how brittle they are

Trades people always slag off other trades work. The problem is there doesnt appear to be any accountability. I know why people DIY.

I was shocked 😜

Your using the wrong insulation

That’s why you do as much as you can yourself. Most Tradies are self taught and are 🤬 I used our neighbour ‘renovation’ trader once to tile a bathroom floor as I was too busy. It looked like he’d tiled it with his eyes closed!

If that’s as far as the shoddy work goes, I’ll take that all day long, few screws and hangers that aren’t structural I wish

I’d be FUMING mate. Did you speak with the builder regarding it? Even just to let him know how shit a job they did!

Can’t beat a professional shite job 👍🏻. The only slight defence on 7mm short, was the timber wet when it went in? Some shrinkage possible. As a DIY’er only trimmed out one space with hangers using square twist, getting the buggers started in confined space was the hardest part. Mine did not look like that mess. I am forever correcting pros work in my place, plumbing main culprit, dry joints missing washers equals leaks. Some of the joinery as started on Friday and finished Monday, which is why I DIY!

Aside from the poor cutting and instalation of hangers around the roof light, if you look at the installation guide for keylite and velux units you will note that the trimmers should be installed at an angle top and bottom, so that warm air isn't trapped in a square sided box beneath the unit, those trimmers are wrong as they are square to the opening, 😢

You should see the shoddy work here in Australia thats nothing to what youd get here

They used screws because you can take it off with ease to fix their work.

If this cap did this on price work there is your answer, he had to work fast so he cut corners

Love the guys that have to hire out and then critisize on the job they got. Do it yourself next time.

You definitely got stung by the Carpenters ......the bee knew better ✌

I do almost all my own work, as i dont trust anyone else. I can see that what i have done is right and correct to the literature and videos freely available from the manufacturer.

Professional prices amateur work.

I am a builder and plan designer for over 30 years. You are correct in using nails vs screws not designed for the applications and many builders need to be aware of it. "Do Not " replace nails with screws. This is a simple "Head-In" so it is supporting the a single roof rafter mid span. From what I see its over kill. Lack of understanding of structural components and connections "TRUE". The Design fix is very simple we took away 1 roof rafter. 1) We added 2each rafters as double roof rafter to replace 1 rafter = solved for the continuous rafter load no calc need. 2) Structural span of a single head-in 2x6 block @ 32 span. with 3 each 16d nails on each end is about 840lbs. That split for tributary loads applied is 1680 lbs along the rafter . The cross blocking is only supporting the sky-light. The builder is in "OVERKILL" 3) The panel span of the roof sheathing alone without the complies with code.

How's the rat problem been waiting for the update ha

Screws.... work in pubs and the number of "screws" that just fail in picnic benches would make you cry!

No offence to tradesmen but I haven’t met any that take pride in their work. Most are self proclaimed professionals, that tell you they’ve been working in the trade for 10+ years. Sometimes it’s better to do the job yourself, even though it takes twice as long. I sleep better at night, knowing the jobs done well.

Sadly this doesn't surprise me, from all trades I've come across bad workmanship. All that professional means is that you're paid not that you're any good at it...

I wonder if that carpenter watches your channel

Need a cat video!

This is what you pay the big bucks for...shoddy shite!

lol . I make most of my living out of sorting other peoples fuck ups out

They probably had a shit price from the main contractor.. Happens all the time. The whole house building industry is all about who can deliver at the lowest cost. Resulting in house bashing lash ups! Not excusing shit work but I've been in this industry over 30yrs and nobody gives a fuck about quality only price! I see carpenters jobs being advertised for 150-200 a day. I was earning more than that framing roofs 20 yrs ago. Might have something to do with the don't give a fuck standards!

The middle, upper class are begging craftsmen to work and to pay them Tax. I get multiple lucrative wage offers every day. Remember, they refused to pay us trade craftsman real money 20 years ago. Instead they began importing cheap foreign labour to replace us. I said back then, good luck with that, take a look at the buildings where your importing the labour from. Without new blood our quality trades, craftsmen will disappear. We’re beginning to resemble South Africa’s demise.

Twist nails are also high tensile steel like gold screws, the heads snap off twist nails quite easily!

Yep you want to get screwed hire a semi pro professional. Been there and learned my lesson. Find a great professional or do it yourself.

As bad as this is, at least it looks like they tried to do it right but lack key knowledge in certain areas. These guys at least doubled up the rafters and trimmers and tried to install hangers. You can't even imagine how many roofs I work on where "professionals " don't even do that bare minimum! Shocking stuff!

Joist hangers are modern crap. The correct carpentry joints should be used. Building inspectors insist on these diy fixings. Never use any screws in structural carpentry.

You should try framing for a living for a year and your work won’t be as good as his.

The use of joist hangers in the first place is the big elephant in the room here. Totally incorrect application and a waste of materials and time. The use of screws vs nails for structural applications is valid but a bit of a moot point here in the UK as we don't get screw-snapping earthquakes. That being said, nails are just cheaper and faster - the shear rating over screws is a bonus.

OMG mate. Their just a couple of trimmers, non load bearing !! Their just there to support the perp ends of the skylight.. what a load of rubbish 😂

You should video your inspection. Everything is legal just need to straighten out the hanger