A Tow Ball is NOT an option in a 4x4 Recovery? FIND OUT WHAT GOES WRONG 

Thanks for saying that Bob. There’s lots of content here to learn from.

Thanks Bryan. As you possibly may have seen in the comments. So many people still think I’m wrong.

Thanks

Thanks for the support

Thanks.

Glad it was helpful!

Thanks, will do!

You make some good points. Use the right tool for the job especially when it's so cheap and easy to do.

I think what Ronny was trying to show was what could happen in the worst case scenario. It might work 99 out of 100 times but you never know when that last time will be. No one knows the true strength of any tow ball internally. Could have been a bad cast etc.

Maybe a difference in shaft size as well, 3/4 vs 1inch, tight bolt vs loose bolt, etc. 2inch reciever vs 1 1/2 inch.

The temptation to hammer the gas is always there though once connected

Not really, I like my truck enough that I'm never going to smash the throttle like that. Maybe somebody else will, but not me. If Ronnie would have put a forged receiver, a 2-in ball with a 1 inch shank in the back of his rig, he would have ripped the back of that Toyota off before breaking that ball. He purposely got light duty tow balls to try to prove his point. Not saying it's a bad point, just don't condemn everybody out there that drops the strap on their tow ball for a simple recovery. Not everyone is driving a dedicated off-road vehicle and sometimes you have to help the next guy with what you have.

😂

Glad you didn't get hurt.

Why not just get a hitch receiver like I show in the video and make sure you're safe. As I say the metal plates are also known to fail. If you use the code madmatt you can get a discount on the products linked in the discription.

My pleasure!

I'll bet it does.

Thanks and some excellent points

glad to help :)

Yeah yeah

Excellent comment

Yup let common sense prevail. It's not as black and white as everyone claims.

@@CaseysOffRoadRecovery But you could also argue that if you never use it, you won't have a problem. ;)

no i haven't

I think what Ronny was trying to show was what could happen in the worst case scenario. It might work 99 out of 100 times but you never know when that last time will be. No one knows the true strength of any tow ball internally. Could have been a bad cast etc.

@@stewbird if that's the case no one knows the true strength of the cute recovery points that all these uneducated "experts" recommend. or a tow bar you put a recovery hitch into, or the bolts holding it all to the chassis, or the chassis itself. These "experts" like Dickhead Dahl falsely scare people into attaching to things a lot weaker than a tow ball, causing actual dangerous situations. There's an increasing amount of occurrences where "rated" recovery points are ripping off and flying along with a shackle. No 4x4ing snatch strap or kinetic rope has, or is going to, snap a tow ball, as demonstrated by Dickhead Dahl, the chassis will let go of the whole tow bar before a 2/3 cut through tow ball will break. Think about it.

@@TruBluOffroad You do realize that people have been killed by tow balls that broke free during a recovery right?! He mentions it less than 15 seconds into the video. It happens and is well documented. They essentially turn into cannon balls when they go. That is all Ronny Dahl was trying to demonstrate. The whole point is attaching to something that will not kill someone if it breaks.

@@cjr4497 He say's it on the internet, it must be true!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@@cjr4497 people have also been killed by airbags and seat belts. There's a lot of people in the world so almost anything that can happen will. That doesn't mean it's likely. If you're foolish enough you can get almost anything to kill you. Not saying towballs are the best option but the danger is way overstated in my opinion.

Yep and thanks for the Sub.

My thoughts madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

Glad it was helpful!

Ronnie didn't cut the first tow ball as shown in this video. My thoughts on the pin. madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

@@MadMatt4WD Ronnie's head was the only thing that came close to going through the windscreen in the first test. You can also get on eBay an 8 tonne rated pintle hook/50mm towball tongue that has the top arm of the pintle hook locked over the top of the tow ball. Factor 55 is nice stuff but I think it got its name because it costs more by a factor of 55.

@@dustyfarmer Yes F55 is not cheap. But it's very good gear and many who can afford it are appreciating the quality. Of course, there are many other suitable options.

But it doesn't break when you tow a 10,000kg trailer and hit the brakes... The real lesson is don't stand in the danger zone when doing recovery.

@@codywohlers2059 You're not shock loading a 10,000kg trailer like you do in a snatch recovery.

​@@JimBob-vb8oz I think you are

@@codywohlers2059 If you are then you're rough on your gear.

Just had this accident

Great glad to help

Watch this. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Jcv2wy5RKeI.html

If you’ve got the Factor55 recover that’s the best solution. Well done.

One would think so. But what are the standard quality pins made off? I don't know to be honest. As I say in the video I would still prefer to use the hitch reciver.

Well so here's the issue, the pin has a similar strength and material as the rest of the hitch, hot rolled carbon steel. If you added a grade 8 pin and solid bar insert, eventually the bolt will slice through the outer receiver, fracturing it. 13,000 single shear of a grade 2 pin, 26k double. That's a doozey of a pull. Likely close to the breaking of the hitch itself.

I'm consistently amazed at those who defend this dangerous practice all to save a simple device change.

@@MadMatt4WD I get sick of the common sense crew. "there shouldn't be any rules because everybody should just use common sense". Unfortunately, when corrinors reports keep coming in with the same cause of death, something needs to be done to educate the common sense crew.

Sure. The amount of traction required to move 15000 lbs is not 15000 lbs. you can push a car but you can’t lift one. Also we’re factoring for fatigue over time.

Its because he doesnt know what he is talking about. In canada with full sized trucks your towing ball should be 1 1/4. Think its rated for 30,000 pds. Your slings or chains will break long before the ball will shear. I've pulled bumpers off trucks ripped tow hooks from frames. Never broken a ball.

I’m glad to help.

There’s many videos showing that

Thanks.

Great point

You raise an excellent point.

There's another reason you don't recover from a trailer though... The trailer's chassis isn't at all suitable to do a recovery from. You are quite likely to destroy the trailer if the towball doesn't come off. Sure, there are probably exceptions out there but that's just what they are... Exceptions.

I didn't miss it per-say. I can only cover off so much info in each video or they would be way too long. In your situation you should speak with your local 4wd accessories supplier or research whats available for your vehicle.

next week we have @matts offroad recovery explain that. This video is to lay a platform for Matts video.

@@MadMatt4WD Ya Matt have caught a couple videos you guys did togeather. Good stuff

Thans Ken :)

@@MadMatt4WD Hill towing just uses one tow ball and a kientec rope.

Never have a tow ball or hitch in a recovery.

I wouldn’t use the factory points for anything other than light recovery. Fit a pintle hook to the 4 chassis bolts at the rear.

@@MadMatt4WD Thanks for the advice

awesome

@@MadMatt4WD getting a transfer case and gear box with 200,000 km less than mine and im also having problems with my current gear box from not wanting to go into some gears sometimes to 4L not working

@@Bobodeman, Of course, I have no idea what your driving. :)

@@MadMatt4WD 2000 mk triton manual. If you check my channel i have 2 videos of it. Both where basic dirt driving by the 2nd was more complex. Im also located NSW about an hour or 2 from Albury. Not going to state where I live for safety reason

Hey mate. No there’s not but that would not be a very strong design imo.

Yeah right. Wouldn't believe you ay.

@@MadMatt4WD Nope luckily despite three or four individual strands it held. I think ill replace it with one a little bigger. Easier then finding a new place for the boat.

We have a design that has a strap like seat belt on it. Much better IMO

@@MadMatt4WD okay I'm a little confused. A design for a winch? But whatever it is if it makes my life easier I'm interested in it.

Personally I wouldn’t use it for a kinetic recovery. A tow recovery would be ok if you HAD too. Use the right tool for the job.

@@MadMatt4WD I was also wondering if you don't have a hitch reviser would it be ok to loop a strap around the hitch itself because it's a solid connection?

@@callum3261 there’s a thing in recoveries where if it works it’s fine. That sounds like it goes against everything I say. The idea being every recovery is different and will require a different approach. People like things to be black and white most recoveries have lots of grey in them. So considering the dangers and such you then make a considered plan that is as safe as you can make it for the situation you’re in. Part of the process if you know you will be performing recoveries is to prepare the vehicle as best you can. There can be lots challenges at that point with the modern vehicle. So you decide whether you hook on that way. If you do I suggest you keep the recovery energy as low as you can.

A tow is rather different to what we're referring to which is a kinetic energy recovery.

Not really the same thing mate, towing vs recovery.

Not the same thing but I have a 1/4 tone if I’m a little hung up I’ll use the hitch only if I’m buried would I consider something else

My thoughts are here. madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

Great point

Acceptable as a last resort.

We tried that, it bent the pin, had to torch it out.

my thoughts madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

This video is a precursor to a video where Matt explains his use of the triball.

nice points

Thanks

They got this new metal called chinesium

Next weeks video is Matt explaining it. Personally I think he could just use a proper hitch receiver.

If you watch how he connects the rope to that receiver it diverts the energy into multiple points and could possibly be stronger than a tow shackle, but I’m still with Madmatt’s set up because there is no way that the snatch rope can slip off or get miss aligned during the pull.

Personally I think a 5 star hotel and a swim up bar is better.

Use the tool designed for the job.

I’ve done videos about that over the years. If you go to the blogs on the website you’ll see my detailed thoughts. Basically it’s ok imo as a last resort.

Thanks and welcome

I've been surprised to see him use that; even suggested at one point he get a D-shackle mount to replace it. They're so cheap and easy why not?

Our video next week is Matt explaining how he does it. Personally I think he could use a hitch receiver.

@@MadMatt4WD In a few of the latest videos, A pintle hook has been used and the three ball has been put away. The three ball is used in tow when you dont know what size ball joint is going to be when you tow a customers trailer, they dont know most of the time.

Interesting.

That’s acceptable.

That can happen too

You make some good points. But your towballs are rated to tow not recover so bare that in mind. As you indicate a towing load is vastly different to a kinetic recovery load.

A std pintle yes but not with the screw in ball.

@@MadMatt4WD So even with 2 5/16" ball that has huge stud for retention?....and latch against top of it?hmmm

I think you're right. "fit for purpose"

I think we agree.

Totally agree.

i can but try

MadMatt 4WD As a mechanical Engineer myself, I just shake my head at soo many things I see and read nowadays. Keep up the great work. Many people genuinely appreciate it.

Thanks Brent, I really appreciate you saying this. It can be a tough gig. I have a few people who I bounce ideas off as [part of my prep.

@@MadMatt4WD it's one thing to sound like you know what you're talking about, or have a piece of paper that say's you know what your talking about, but it's clearly a totally different thing to actually know, understand and back up what you say.

This is my thoughts on that. madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

@@MadMatt4WD The link gives a very good and balanced opinion with substantial justification. I like it!

Yes I've seen your design and thats a good thing.

Yes. Not designed for kinetic recovery although in an emergency they can be used without connecting to the tow balls directly.

So that justifies using the wrong tool for the job?

If I know what people do but there’s still a better tool for the job than that.

Yes but that's the safety factor not the WLL

i'm not sure I understand what you’re saying .

@@MadMatt4WD on the reciever reese makes a one piece solid steel reciever piece that can be used with block and tackle d rings and other re overy devices that dont endanger those who use them of coarse that's here in the colonies and if a vehicle cant come free with a gentle pull then take a shovel and bury it the rest of the way because it isnt worth retrieving but here most retrieval is still done by winch and chain and by professional retrieval engineers

@@shaneharrison4775 Nice

Those things are designed for the purpose. Those lefties are stiffer than most normal bicycle forks

I’m a master engineer and that is spot on. But, don’t even chance that towbar, because the whole assembly decapitates a human with ease. Get your truck down the off road shop and have two proper tow points on the front and two on the back. ( Ideally hooks so you have no shackles at all ) You need to be sure in your mind that if you strapped your first born into your truck that you could tie a helicopter to them and fly them round for a bit. (Get side hooks as well if you can)

Nice play. Comment first and then see how ya go. Love ya work and thanks for the support.

@@MadMatt4WD Thanks. And thanks for the vid. If you are prepared it is way easier to do tasks without taking risks (maybe you never need side hooks, but when you do, the risk strapping to something you shouldn’t in a blind panic goes away :)

I would argue it's not designed for the job of recovery

That’s interesting. Have you watched Ronnie dahls videos on tow balls.

@@MadMatt4WD I haven't yet. I'll make time to watch it

Agreed, though there are some negatives to that as well. For example, any sort of side-loading will put the strap against a hard edge which has the potential to cut/damage it. But if my choice is this or a tow ball, this wins every time.

My thoughts. madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

@@MadMatt4WD I should have read some of the other comments where you posted this - pretty much mirrors my own thoughts.

So are you saying in a low load situation?

No I pulled out a smaller size camper with my tow ball

Thanks for the comment. Because I’m no physicist I actually got this video checked prior to it being released. I’m confident it’s correct but I’ll get them to read your comment and respond if appropriate.

on some they are but not on my Toyotas, when they are used in big recovery they have been known to fail

Correct but if you launch it at a higher enough speed it'll go through steel or disintegrate. If an item is lighter it just needs to travel faster to do the same damage as a heavier item travelling slower.

I have this same question.

those pins are rather thin and if you bend it, you might have a very hard time to get it out and release your tow strap.

Gents. Thanks for the question. Best off reading my Blog at this link. madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

Don't use the pin as it bends and can break. Use a hitch receiver. READ MadMatt's blog it explains your options and more on safety.

@@Malc664 You must have read a different blog as the one above says different.

Well except it doesn’t seem to be the part that we see fail.

It has some drawbacks. Here's my thoughts madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

@@MadMatt4WD Thanks for the reply and write up. I will continue using the pin for now but look at getting the hitch adapter.

And yet the Australian government has a mandatory standard that must be on all snatch straps sold in Australia that says do not use a tow ball. Now we all know governments don't do anything they don't have to. www.productsafety.gov.au/standards/recovery-straps-for-motor-vehicles#:~:text=its%20minimum%20breaking%20strength%2C%20expressed,used%20in%20the%20recovery%20process

The triball isn’t going to fail but the right tool for the job is always best.

@@MadMatt4WD If as you stated the triball isn't going to fail why isn't it the best tool for the job, Multi functional would make it the best tool no?

Because it's not designed for this job. It's like using a pair of multigrips to undo a bolt. Yes they do it but not as well as a spanner.

This is a 50mm/2” ball

The part the ball is attached to is light weight.

Ok. That’s interesting. In Australia that’s often used to tow up too 3500kg trailers. And we are a nanny state on safety.

@@MadMatt4WD What is the tow rating on the ball and is it 3/4" or 1" shank size? Also what is the tow rating on the receiver 5000lb 7500lb or 10,000lb?

The ones I use are rated for 10,000 pounds, I stay away from the light weight parts.

Interesting points.

My thoughts on that. It has some disadvantages. madmatt4wd.com.au/2014/01/27/is-a-hitch-pin-acceptable-as-a-snatch-recovery-point/

What do you mean falsified the results??? I think the double shear ensures a strong attachment designed with good engineering principals that won’t fail with the loads we are dealing with.

@@MadMatt4WD Just that after 8? Attempts a used ball didn't break and had to cut them to break. But it does show how tuff a jeep is. Totally agree with the double shear. Just using some real life experiences with metal/bolts/pins in the hitch receiver scenario from working with machinery and mechanicals. Over time creates stress points and we know how well people inspect the equipment. About 1 in 10 vehicles I service, the tow ball is loose and been used to the point where the threads are worn and worn the tongue to the point it needs replacing.

@Sydney Mower And Automotive Centre Excellent points. The video I reference shows that hit number 8 busts the ball off. From what I saw it hadn't been cut or tampered with. Of course there could be camera magic going on but having met Ronny a couple of times he doesn't strike me as a guy who would falsify this testing.

Yeah or just use the correct tool and not have the concern.

@@MadMatt4WD i very very rarely off road with my truck but it does tow a lot. that’s where my question arose.

Your better of taking the hitch out and fitting the strap through the hitch pin then.

Great logic. Just don't hit the straps but rather just use them to do a tow recovery. Also use a shovel to dig out around the vehicle and do things to reduce the recovery load.

Yes I have listed it elsewhere during google it and you’ll find stuff fairly easily.

@@MadMatt4WD actually no, you don't find anything legitimate. Just lots of speculation and uneducated, unsubstantiated hearsay.

This was the first result I got when I searched up towball deaths. Scroll down the article for the list. www.4wdingaustralia.com/4x4/4wd-recovery-deaths-in-australia/

@@MadMatt4WD 1 of 9 in 20 years with a mention of a tow ball and I'd put money on it that it had part of the tow bar with it. If it was the ball that snapped I'd put money on it that a chain was being used. I mean seriously Mat, surely you're smarter that Dickhead Dahl and can see from his video that tow balls don't snap from use with a snatch strap. You need to do better. I'm sure you have good intentions, well I hope. But by adding to the towball scare, you're endangering more people who will opt for something of questionable strength that is more likely to fly at people, because they believe blindly that a tow ball is a straight up no go. Most of the vehicles out there the strongest thing on their car is a towball, and unless they have hundreds of hp and massive tyresm there's no way they can possibly get enough momentum to break telstra rope, let alone a towball. But if they're scared of the ball and desperately find something else to connect to, there's a good chance they'll hook to something that will fly off and kill, like a bull bar or rear bumper. Warn people to take extreme caution and to educate themselves, because as evident in the link you provided yourself, people are hooking to all sorts of things that are clearly not up to the task. One of the things that people connect to that also fly off at fatal speeds are those cute "rated" recovery points that all the big brands sell. Don't be a suck hoping the big brands might give you freebies or help promote you. Don't be scared to tell the truth about their rip off, selling priorities. They don't care about people. At least the people should be able to trust people like you to tell them the truth. Don't mislead them!!!!!

Scotty You obviously know way more than the rest of us so who am I to question your infinite wisdom. Why come here to insult me and make assumptions about what i know and do? Have a mature debate by all means, we do not have to agree thats fine with me. I'm only too happy to be wrong. But the way you're approaching this is with arrogance. Now I will respond in good faith that you will stop with the attack and begin to have a helpful conversation. You may notice I'm one of the few channels that actually responds to nearly all the comments. Thats because I'm serious about what I do and serious about helping people. Did you know it is mandated in Australian standards that you must not recover of a towball? It is one the label of every snatch strap sold. So why am I wrong to repeat that warning? At the start of the video I say towballs and hitches for very good reason. That is because the hitch is known to fail. Do you know what the Hierarchy of recovery is? I don't like the rated recovery business either and prefer to use the terms of suitable recovery point. Unfortunately everything gets attached to a thin piece of chassis in some way which is hardly a good solution but if a Kinetic recovery is done right we know that it can work. I personally hardly ever do a kinetic recovery prefering one of the many other methods available to us. Lots more I could say but it's late and I'm off to bed. Oh and I don't like swearing and calling people names on my channel so let’s try and keep some level of professionalism. I found this comment in the junk pile and approved it to have this conversation.

Well said

Yes strictly speaking yes but for the purpose of this exercise is it important to communicate that to the audience ?

@@MadMatt4WD Maybe. I feel like it's reasonable to say something like "a double shear splits the force between each shear, so each shear point takes half the force of a single shear"

Yes, would love to hear your opinion of pintle hooks at the hitch.

I have no issue with a Pintle hook so long as it's correctly mounted. Next week my video is Matt explaining how he uses the TriBall and I think he explains it well. Personally I think he could use a hitch receiver in the front and be safer than the TriBall.I certainly didn't lecture Matt but I did challenge some of his practices.