A Woman's Place in a Material World (Suzanne Moore & Kathleen Stock) remastered audio

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Woman's Place UK was delighted to host this conversation between Suzanne Moore and Kathleen Stock to mark the publication of Material Girls on 6 May 2021. Material Girls is available from all good bookshops - bricks and mortar and online. You can subscribe to Letters from Suzanne at substack.
www.littlebrown.co.uk/titles/...
uk.bookshop.org/books?keyword...
www.newsfromnowhere.co.uk/pag...
www.amazon.co.uk/Material-Gir...
suzannemoore.substack.com
Material Girls is a timely and trenchant critique of the influential theory that we all have an inner feeling known as a gender identity, and that this feeling is more socially significant than our biological sex.
Kathleen Stock is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Sussex, UK. Her new book Material Girls is published on 6 May. She received an OBE for services to higher education in the 2021 New Years Honours, and has recently given evidence to a Women and Equalities Select Committee inquiry on reform of the Gender Recognition Act.
Suzanne Moore is an award-winning columnist and journalist. Her writing has appeared in Marxism Today, The Guardian, The Independent, The Mail on Sunday, New Statesman, and The Telegraph. She wrote for UnHerd about leaving The Guardian following hostility to her article defending women's right to organise and speak. She won an Orwell Prize, the UK’s most prestigious prize for political writing, for her journalism in 2019.

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7 май 2021

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Комментарии : 109

@Wild_Vegan_Child 3 года назад

I'm a woman, I ain't cis anything!

@ktwashere5637 Год назад

that phrase "cis" is absurd.

@bkilg2509 Год назад

I HATE IT!

@MelodyBee-yl7we Год назад

@@ktwashere5637 its a slur, HATE speech very offensive

@BANKO007 2 года назад

I am so pleased that genuine academics are turning their fire on the cowards amongst university elites, domestic terrorists in masks, and totalitarian ideologues masquerading as academics. Stock is just a normal academic (i.e. the way they all used to be) in that she appears to believe in the most important tenets of the enlightenment. (Sorry, trying to save space). Stock is now set to be elevated to the status of hero and I hope she is surprised how many will support her.

@casscamden740 11 месяцев назад

erm the so called academics got us all in this mess ...stupid things like gender studies even womens studies .having books about discussing what is a woman...FUCK RIGHT OFF!! theres males & females observed in pregnancy or at birth the end!!

@pegm5937 11 месяцев назад

Listening to this conversation 2 years later, its astoundingly how almost naively optimistic you both were. Kathleen was bullied and chased out of her university, The Tavistock experimented on thousands more children before it was stopped. Things got far, far worse. Let's hope that the conversation is on the upswing again.

@audreywoodward 3 года назад

I appreciate this discussion so much. I am constantly talking about this issues with my other gay male friends, it doesnt make me popular but friends are beginning, slowly, to understand my issues; about the erasure of homosexuality, and the 'how I feel' as a biological fact. And of course the growing invisibility of 'womanhood',

@blackknightfool 3 года назад

To be a woman is to be womanly which is to be feminine . To be a man is to be manly which is to be masculine. Lesbians are not women but homosexual females. Gays are not men but homosexual males.

@audreywoodward 3 года назад

@@blackknightfool when you develop you're first brain cell, please treat yourself to a pat on the back.

@helendancelot 3 года назад

@@blackknightfool RUe Paul clearly states that he is a man..

@blackknightfool 3 года назад

@@helendancelot do you deny that gay men have brains more like straight women than other men?

@youcantdiealonewithcats 3 года назад

@@blackknightfool Lesbian: homosexual female. Woman: female human being (specifically an adult human female). Where exactly did you get lost here?

@brianrobinson3236 3 года назад

Thanks so much for this, both. I've got to the last chapter, Prof Stock, and the book is simply wonderful. I had some misgivings in advance as to whether I'd be able to understand a book written by an analytic philosopher, but as soon as I began reading, my fears vanished. It's so crystal-clear. And I love the wit, which manages to be devastating about the irrationalities but always so empathetic about people. I very much warm to the idea of people being immersed in a fiction, as you discuss at length in the book. And I agree that it can be highly therapeutic, but as you say if it gets out of control it can be destructive.

@maxdashu 3 года назад

"the only civil rights movement where one group is being asked to give up rights": bingo. The same group that is always supposed to defer, women. Bollocks.

@beckyshah4600 2 года назад

Great conversation. Both of you have spoken so much sense. Am sorry you have had to endure such awful bullying just for stating facts. I think there's a backlash starting against these authoritarian trans extremists an their misogynistic agenda.

@MelodyBee-yl7we Год назад

oh yes #sexmatters

@Ian-ky5hf 3 года назад

It worries me that women being turned into an identity. Reality is being ignored.

@andreamolton8226 3 года назад

Great convesation between two brilliant women.

@keyboarddancers7751 2 года назад

Brilliant news to hear that the University of Sussex has declared its unequivocal professional backing to Professor Stock. Just a strong reminder here. There are A LOT of men (like me) who are keenly and fully supporting women on this Kafkaesque issue.

@anonnymous4684 2 года назад

Kathleen Stock has just announced her resignation from the university.

@keyboarddancers7751 2 года назад

@@anonnymous4684 Yes I heard. I think she'll be fine because she was already well established in her field and has the resilience to adapt to whatever's thrown in her path. Now if she was a young post graduate thinking of presenting those same arguments on the public stage, she would instead be giving huge consideration to her future career and we'd probably have never heard her name being discussed at all.

@casscamden740 11 месяцев назад

WOULDNT SHE STILL BE THERE IF THEY HAD DONE THAT?

@valerieurquhart3133 Год назад

"The greatest danger to both society and the individual is the suspension of critical thought." Socrates. We are so scr*wed.

@elgado 3 года назад

Great book and much-needed critique of gender identity! Thank you for the wonderful video!

@ullasanden4430 3 года назад

Tank you Kathleen Stock! Got your book 👌

@bristolfashion4421 Год назад

Helpful talk - thanks. The observation at 42:40 that "the tactics of the opposition are just mean-spirited, uncharitable & toxic..." is so sad to hear. In order to make sense of this whole issue it's essential that we engage in civilised conversation - how else can we do it ? The readiness of some critics to brow-beat and refuse to listen is truly depressing. Things *must* change. In order to progress, we depend on commentators like SM & KS to continue to show their characteristic patience and tolerance to work towards a positive outcome! "decadent, banal & frivolous..." Ouch! But I take your point. Many more issues should be ahead in the queue for our serious considertion! At the end of the day, this is such a colossal waste of resources.

@johart9994 2 года назад

Kathleen you can write ! Clearly ! Your book has educated me !! Wow

@jellokween1680 Год назад

Excellent book.

@luckystarship2275 Год назад

What I don't understand is how someone can change their sex on their birth certificate. That is just wrong.

@fabfran4104 2 года назад

Excellent discussion.

@helendancelot 3 года назад

There are many differences between a Late transitioning Male ( with a wife and kids possibly still loving and supporting) and a Teen girl (possibly loosing her ability to have children at all or having breasts to feed children)

@dorijoe 2 года назад

Or just having breasts.

@lorasaltis4134 3 года назад

Biologically, each individual is and always remains the sex they were born to. Transmen are women and transwomen are men. Accepting this natural reality is the only way we can live together fairly.

@virginmicrobe 3 года назад

It is so sad to hear of all the bullying you both had experienced, and one can't help but think that this phenomenon is a kind of fascism is a kind of witch hunt, and of an ageist prejudice too, even if not all the female attacked are more than 60's+. It is young people that are venting a way of dealing with the world in a very toxic manner, but instead of being stopped and shown their attitude is not productive or mature, they become indulged. It is extremely sinister that the trend comes too again like much other stuff even as Coca-Cola, from the supremacy and influence that the USA exercises over the whole planet. And yes, folk anywhere just repeat like parrots discourses and realities that in their contexts do not apply. One thing that I have spotted is that now they really do circumscribe who are their enemies in the Maleficum Maleficarum rules, and those are the "BabyBoomers", so yes is phobic and ageist with hunt what is at stake here, hatred of women in the left from the radical Feminism of the '60s and 70's that so much people fears. Really hoping for the tide to turn and for the coming shame of the leaders of such actions as that of writing letters and publishing bullying and trolling menacing and insulting women.

@marjorieesteakley1982 Год назад

Gender identity ideology is part of a larger reactionary counterrevolution against the New Left of the Vietnam era, which had extracted unprecedented concessions from empire and capital. The 4th Industrial Revolution is designed to preclude the population from ever rising up again and to reinstate serfdom.

@judithpetree6329 10 месяцев назад

Excellent discussion, raises relevant questions to which Prof, Stock provides intelligent and dare I say it, "common-sense" answers, something that sadly, appears to be missing in much of the discourse around "gender identity" and which have immense and far-reaching social, psychological, philosophical, medical, academic, and legal implications.

@johnglenn2539 2 года назад

If you can't define a category (ie "woman"), how can you argue that something/someone is within the category?

@bungey3800 3 года назад

Where have the previous comments gone? I posted a comment yesterday but it’s gone now..... My copy has just arrived 🥳

@iristhornton7904 3 года назад

Return it and get your money back. Have a read of Serrano comments and watch Posie, and a few others. Waste of money - if you have a brain and a spine. Its for the 'not very bright' and the 'nice' (but actually nasty).

@moodyonroody5313 3 года назад

@@iristhornton7904 I watched KJ's vid with Julia Long but they hadnt read the whole book - they highlighted extracts which they didn't agree with and it did look as tho KS was personally insulting JL ... however without reading the book can't be sure of the whole context. Can you be more specific Iris cos on the face of it looks like a book I'd like to buy.

@helendancelot 3 года назад

A problem that I perceive is disparity in some male to female rights of expression. Boys can be expelled if they have long hair or any number of hair styles that girls wear at school. But a boy can wear long hair if he says he is a girl.. Skirts also

@helendancelot 3 года назад

I thought Unisex worked quite well in the 70s... Not all things were unisex some spaces were protected by sex based rights. In the 80s the marketing advertisers reintroduced boys and girls divides as a marketing ploy or promotion

@ktwashere5637 Год назад

I grew up in that period and have no memory of what you are talking about.

@acerrubrum5749 2 года назад

Turn the question, Define what a man is and why do you think you are not one. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

@deejayp9668 2 года назад

Just viewed this; so glad I did! If the World didn't have - REAL - women in it, we'd probably have self-destructed thru' sheer BRUTE-FORCE IDIOCY by now. Good luck with your book, Dr. Stock!

@mathieudube1183 2 года назад

What does 3rd sector mean? NGOs?

@videomillsy 2 года назад

In the UK the Third Sector is charities

@casscamden740 11 месяцев назад

ANYONE WHO HARMS A CHILD SHOULD BE SACKED, SUED & THEN PUT IN PRISON FOREVER

@presstodelete1165 Год назад

Everything is based on Gender, Gender is performative, this leaves us with Everything is Performative and all bets are now off.

@gebruderschwarzwald7931 11 месяцев назад

Please stop touching the microphone. Every time you do it actually makes a sound and by that way deteriorates audio quality. Thank you

@robbiespence6504 3 года назад

19:00 Helen Joyce's book on gender history out in a few months?

@PanicBeach 3 года назад

Mid-July!

@UteHeggenTranswidowHeals 11 месяцев назад

Trans widows, ie, women now divorced from suddenly crossdressing men, are at risk of sexual assault, coercion, aggression before they leave. Data now up our experiences @ YT channel: Trans Widow Ute Heggen

@michaelroper4238 10 месяцев назад

They kept referring to Serrano as ‘she’ … why oh why

@helendancelot 3 года назад

Poor scientific practices even regarding collection of relevant data.. From supposed professional medical and psychological persons

@Cladina_Green 11 месяцев назад

"Transwomen" don't want to be flexible. Invading women's spaces and making us uncomfortable excites them.

@dougmoore5252 2 года назад

My woman’s place is in our home.

@pyeriotsquad 3 года назад

Comments are being deleted. Just goes to show how pointless it is to give an inch of ground. Never sacrifice language / truth. You two speak some sense, but please don't throw women under the bus to win woke points.

@iristhornton7904 3 года назад

They sell 'books' to the not very bright. They are the problem! Sell outs.

@CatherineKarena 3 года назад

Since when, read the damn book

@germalina9879 3 года назад

Do you mean because they both would agree to use preferred pronouns in some situations?

@CMark50 3 года назад

You just lost me by saying "we" can't use the term "mother" anymore. This is where you stop this craziness. Right here and right now say - NO. Do NOT play to the crazy. Mother is the word that you use.

@maxdashu 3 года назад

Yes. We do not surrender "mother," and do not accede to "cis."

@wesmundo154 2 года назад

I thiiiiiink she was being tongue in cheek…

@CMark50 2 года назад

@@wesmundo154 Nope. You do realize that a man in a dress pretending to be female, and this MAN has NEVER served a day in ANY branch of armed service, on October 19, 2021, was appointed as the first "female" 4 star Admiral. You're mistaken in thinking that any biological female making ANY kind of a comment regarding the invasion of the female space by males pretending to be female as tongue and cheek, Wes. - I wonder how many biological females understand the depth of the insult that Biden initiated with this classless political move. Biden slapped down all biological females...

@baconsarny-geddon8298 Год назад

Pretty sure that was a joke...

@ribbonsofnight 8 месяцев назад

In addition to being a joke it is not important that mother be able to be used metaphorically. It is vital that it be able to be used literally. To say otherwise would be the worst of Newspeak.

@JustinSmith-kn9ef Год назад

Is a womans space at the pinnacle lesbian?

@hansiesma16 2 года назад

I got into a debate in another post yesterday. I realised that I had previously watched this video thinking here are two reputable women so the channel must be reputable but then below is part of a what this transwoman had to say in her post to me. The first sentence refers to her claims that she used a toilet and experienced these women banging on the cubicle door and shouting for her to get out. Doxxing, physical assault and spitting? "well you should understand that the women that attacked me were with women's place.uk which is a hate organisation that espouses the very things you said. As were the women that leaked photos of me and my address on Facebook because I spoke about my experiences of hate crimes at an event. As were the women who used that leaked information to show up at my address and physically assault me and spit on me at the corner of my street as I was returning from shopping. Do you know who else has ties to that organisation? Maya. And she didn't simply accidentally misgender someone. She chose to repeatedly misgender someone and stated that she refused to gender that person correctly because of their appearance."

@ktwashere5637 Год назад

is there any evidence that this actually happened? It sounds like this person has taken what happened to JK Rowling and claimed it as their own experience.

@baconsarny-geddon8298 Год назад

>"I can't find any actual rational argument, to criticize anything in this hour-long video... So instead, I'm just going to stack unconfirmable hearsay, on top of identity-politics dogma where your race/sex/gender-ID etc determine the validity of your claims, on top of vague implications, on top of guilt by association... And hope that SOMETHING in that 100% evidence-free, argument-free mess of smear-tactics somehow sticks..." This kind of ineptness would be funny, if it wasn't resulting in so many women getting raaped by biological males in women's prison, and the needless chemical/surgical of many girls (Especially lesbians, with the same-sex attracted making up over 80% of needlessly mutilated, detransitioning minors, with the vast majority girls) But the REAL problem we should priori tize is "mis-gendering", right? You just keep supporting those convicted raapist "women", and the people irreversably mutililating children, justified by exactly ZERO empirical evidence of any medical issue/bennefits, coz OMG, someone trying to stop the raaping and child-mutilating (amongst other horrors) dared to MIS-GENDER someone, which (unlike raape, or chopping the 100% healthy breasts off a 14yo, with no empirical/medical justification, or chemically sterilizing her with puberty-blockers) is just going TOO FAR!!!

@Anonimo-tb6ge 3 года назад

Hi! :-D Just to point out: you're falling for the "duality myth" (body/soul or body/mind) false dicotomy. This is a pure *idealistic* coordinates (in opossition to material philosophical coordinates) which I've detectedA LOT during past years mostly from philosophers coming from countries with a prominent cristian protestant cultural background (USA & UK). I think the key is to start thinking the scientific approach (biology, antrophology,etc) and try to do philosophy from there (pure material coordinates) discarding the myth of the duality body/mind as "you're not your mind neither your sould" in fact, existence of "the mind" hasn't been proved so far (neither the soul :-P) meanwhile "you are your body" (with you own psicology ofc) has been proven since loooong time (indeed centuries). Democritus & Epicuro were on point as they discard the duality soul & body meanwhile Plato & Decart sadly fall for it. To be able to start approaching this matter from a proper philosophical material coordinates, the body & mind/soul duality must be discarded ... indeed, I would say that "an identity" as it is understood by most of critical philosophy approaches are a kind of analogy of "the soul" or "the mind".

@jrd33 2 года назад

"existence of "the mind" hasn't been proved so far" -- I am more certain about the existence of my mind than I am about the existence of my body. My mind in the only thing I have a concrete awareness of which doesn't require the use of my senses which I know to be fallible. Putting the scientific approach before philosophy is putting the larger thing inside the smaller. It doesn't fit.

@DCI-Frank-Burnside 2 года назад

I'm broadly supportive of Stock, but she chose her words badly in a book that was inevitably going to attract controversy. Particularly the word "fiction" which could have been substituted for any number of more diplomatic words.

@hansiesma16 2 года назад

I'm all for calling a spade, a spade or in this case a sciencefiction.

@fabfran4104 2 года назад

It is a fiction. You cannot change your biological sex, to say that you can is a fiction.

@DCI-Frank-Burnside 2 года назад

@@fabfran4104 None of the trans lobby groups are saying that trans women are biologically female, as far as I know.

@nijikirainijinosei92 2 года назад

@@DCI-Frank-Burnside oh they moved on to that years ago. Just searching some key words on Twitter like "trans women are female/biologically female" or on Google if that doesn't work, will pull up lots of people outright arguing that a penis can be a female body part, often on the basis of the idea that sex is literally not real. And unfortunately I think a lot of young people who go into transition DO now think they are altering their sex. I think she made several poor choices in the book, though very much mostly good ones. But I think she's spot on to point out that it it is a fiction to state that some men are women. If we can't state that we can't get anywhere at all.

@ktwashere5637 Год назад

I prefer the word "lie" to be honest but that's just me.

@michaelpoplett2745 2 года назад

Oh, for Christ's sake, get on with it...

@SuperKripke Год назад

If trans women are kept out of women's spaces, what are the odds that either of the two speakers in this video would be allowed into a woman's bathroom.

@patperks3122 Год назад

Very high, they both look like women to this woman.

@baconsarny-geddon8298 Год назад

??? Neither are men/"transwomen", so 0.000%.

@SuperKripke Год назад

Wow I would have at least given them a 50% chance of being allowed into women's bathrooms but you think there's no chance! I guess it would be an own goal to exclude trans women if cis women are inadvertently excluded too.

@tubsymcghee7169 11 месяцев назад

Gender and sex are just social/cultural constructs. They are too diverse and complex for our inadequate categories. To argue that these things are a binary is just unscientific and wrong. Trans people are some of the most vilified and at risk groups in society and transphobia and bigotry in general serve an authoritarian agenda that is being weaponsized for use by reactionaries, fascists and religious fundamentalists who are opposed to women's reproductive freedoms and freedom and personal autonomy in general.