Achilles & Patroclus: Friends or Lovers? 

Ah yes, because I would want to mingle my ashes with my PLATONIC friend and make sure we get buried together so we can spend the eternity with each other, cuz yenno we're just bros and that's a totally normal thing for bros to do..... (in case it wasn't obvious enough, I think achilles and patroclus are soulmates and nobody can tell me otherwise)

some people: are here to learn more greek history me and maybe some people: here to see if they were gay

Who is here after reading “ Song of Achilles”?

Achilles' closest and most humane connection is with Patroclus. He loved him as much as his own life. That's why he still went to battle knowing that doing so will bring him his own doom, because life doesn't have a meaning anymore, when you're already dead inside.

I feel like the takeaway from this is that Patroclus' exact relationship to Achilles, in terms of whether they were having sex or whatever, is vague and open to interpretation, but what is unambiguous is that Patroclus was the most important person in Achilles' life. They were soulmates, and the romantic versus platonic distinction is almost secondary in the face of that.

I am going to believe they were gay because I want them to be gay. No one can say I'm wrong.

They loved each other- doesn’t matter what type of love, but it was strong enough to Achilles that he took revenge and gave his life away to be with Patroclus in the after life.

briseis was a war prize. agamenon took her away from achilles then achiiles felt like agamenon was disrespecting his honor that is why achilles got angry and stopped fighting. not because they were fighting to have sex with her.

Hello, Greek person and some who has studied mythology all their life here! Well, we have no proof the Trojan war ever happened it’s believed that Homer actually made it up because since he was a philosopher, he wrote the book to see what everyone’s views were and his own views on war. It is indeed vague that Achilles and Patroclus were just very, very close. But, other writers and philosophers such as Plato have seen them as lovers and many writers now because of *how* Achilles mourns. Now Breisis (I butchered her name sorry), as not actually seen in the original as having much of a character arc says something. She was used for symbolism. Since Achilles killed Breisis family, and many soldiers took wives forcefully, she symbolizes his pride and glory from being a warrior. When she is taken away, Achilles refuses to fight because again, his “glory and pride” from being a warrior in this war and being taken away from him, he refuses to fight. When Patroclus dies from trying to preserve Achilles pride and glory, Achilles mourns over him in a very dramatic and sad way. He does not burn his body right away and he held him in his tent and weep despite the look of horror from others. He made the suicidal decision to die in the Trojan war because he saw no point in living. Even Briesis for a short moment mourns over Patroclus, you can argue if that was romantic or not, but she did so because she represents part of Achilles, his warrior side and his glory also mourn for him. So in conclusion? You decide, I can really tell you otherwise. I personally feel like them being lovers makes the story have a deeper and more profound meaning, but I think if they were just friends it would have been fine by me!

Achilles and Patroclus were portrayed as lovers in Shakespeare’s Troilus and Cressida

Wasn't there scene where Achilles talked about showering Patrolicus in kisses and worshiping his unblemished thighs?

I CHOOSE to believe that SoA is the actual real thing and no one can convince me otherwise

Considering the Iliad wasn't created by Homer, he just wrote it down, and we don't know what the 'original' was - it was an oral story that likely changed with the telling and the teller, if later ancient writers made them lovers isn't that just as canon? What counts as 'canon' here? Even if the Iliad was totally 100% straight and that was how it was originally told, literally all our King Arthur myths are thousands of years late to the party, but we consider Lancelot and Excalibur and Guinevere 'canon.' Achilles loving his wife doesn't mean he doesn't also love Patroclus, wasn't it common for Greek men to have both wives and a boyfriend?

They loved each other, maybe they weren't "lovers" but they loved each other, no one can convince me otherwise.

I am a little late to this video but I feel like sharing my POV about this relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. I believe that the intention in all the books that talk about them was to portray their deep love towards each other, not focusing on the type of relationship that they had, whether it was lovers, friends, cousins or whatever. After reading a lot about their story I was able to understand their love and connection, how much they admired each other and how much they would of done for one another, and after being able to see that, I honestly didn't care what the title of their relationship was because the intention of the writers was to show the love, beyond a title. So instead of thinking whether they were this or that, let's enjoy how pure, honest and innocent their admiration and passion was.

Can we just agree that their relationship is complicated and cannot be define as pure lover or pure friend

If im not mistaken, Plato actually wrote they were lovers. In his words I believe he wrote "They were a pair of divinely approved lovers." And the word companion in ancient Greece was also code for a romantic companion. As for his war bride, I would imagine he loved her too. Greece was far from straight and most people had several lovers. But there's also the Asexual part of me thst knows someone can be close without sex and it also be beyond friendship

"achilles and patroclus; did theu bang" hah, now you got my attention 😂

Does it matter if they slept together though? Wether we look at a modern retelling like The Song of Achilles or at the Illiad itself, I think you can see that their relationship was very special. In my opinion love isn't just about sleeping together. I think we have taken it a bit too far with this drastic divide between two different interpretations anyway because them being "only friends" or even cousins doesn't feel sincere enough for most (I don't have that deep of a bond with my friends or cousins) but a romantic relationship isn't exactly based on the early sources we have. Achilles was always very arrogant towards others but was totally different when around Patroclus. And let's not forget that he charged into battle, killing Hector and dragging his body all over the place all to avenge Patroclus. How much they cared for eachother is really obvious and you don't necessarily need sex to have this kind of bond. That doesn't make their love for each other any less real. Achilles seemed to love Briseis but would that really stop him from being able to love someone else as well? And from what I remember Briseis wasn't that important of a character. She was just Achilles war prize that was taken by Agamemmnon, right? She probably meant a lot to Achilles but he and Patroclus grew up together so I would imagine that their bond was more meaningful anyway. And what many forget is that their existance wasn't proven. At the end of the day it is just a story and everyone can interpret it how they want. It doesn't make them a bad person. The people that interpret their relationship to be of romantic nature can just read The Song of Achilles and enjoy the story (or - you know - cry) as they want to see it. It really isn't worth fighting over. I hope I got my point across, I'm not that good at keeping my thoughts coherent. And english isn't my first language.

I studied Ancient Greece this year at University and read both the Illiad and Song of Achilles and while I can see both sides of them being lovers or friendships and I interpreted them as lovers but I can see why others would see them as just close companions.

It's true that the society we have now values romance far above and beyond friendship, as though it is a higher, more profound form of love than friendship. While I adored The Song of Achilles, I seriously think strong friendships in media need to be portrayed more often and in a higher light... I suppose people just don't find friendship as satisfying as romance. Wether that's a social concept or a natural one, I don't know.

Alexander - Achilles Hephaestion - Patroclus

I understand that is definitely a chance Achilles and Patroclus were platonic but I simply chose no to accept that.

I love how she introduced the context

i really agree with this interpretation especially the part abt how achilles would love this Discourse abt him bc honestly. you KNOW he would lmao. as for me i believe he was in love with both briseis and patroclus, both romantically, but that his connection to patroclus was much deeper. there's plenty in the text that could easily be read as friendship if you wanted to but even for the time could be seen as romantic?? like wishing death upon all greeks and trojans so that he and patroclus could be alone and conquer troy together seems to be A Lot. + post-homeric things, in the translation i read of when achilles kills penthesilea and falls in love with her body, he compares the great sadness he feels to the one he felt when patroclus died; ie implying he had a sexual/romantic attraction to patroclus. obviously this isnt in the original text, but considering greek myth's nature to be shaped and evolve with the times and place it's portrayed in, it's safe to call them lovers or friends and neither should be a "bad" or "incorrect" interpretation, with evidence for both existing in and after homer's iliad.

I'm obviously not as much of an expert, but as much as I love TSOA and how romantic Achilles and Patroclus's relationship were written in that book, I think their relationship is much more ambiguous than just "friends" or "lovers" exclusively. Achilles obviously cared a lot about Patroclus, but he also marries Briseis (and they have a son? I'm not sure), it is also said that both Achilles and Patroclus slept with women. But Achilles cares deeply for Patroclus, so much that Patroclus's death enraged him and drove him to war the Trojans again, to hunt down Hector, kills him, and drag his dead body around as "revenge", Achilles cares so much about Patroclus, mourns him greatly, and doesn't care that killing Hector would bring forth his own death. Did they bang? I don't think that matters as much, Achilles and Patroclus were soulmates, in more way than one, and it doesn't have to necessarily be romantic

Thank you for taking the time to explain this from a slighly more academic perspective. Achilles Champion of Champions!

So I’m learning Greek(also Latin) and my professor says that they Trojan war probably did happen but that it was about money and land and trading routes(cause you have to go past Troje to sail to the Black Sea), and that our heros didn’t exist. Also cause Homeros wrote it down centuries later, and the story about the Trojan war was told by people, and every person who told it changed it a little, so we’re sure that homeros version was not the original story. I liked that you explained these thing in your video and I really enjoyed it.

I just finished reading this and have been crying for like an hour . And no , they are not friends or lovers . They’re both . The love and the friendship is very obvious. His best friend and the love of his life in one person .

Just read The Song of Achilles and loved it. Enjoyed the hell out of it. And I am still recovering from the emotional scars it gave me. It's a damn painful story... But even I, as someone who loved the book a LOT, can see that the author was very much interested in making Achilles more fixated on Patroclus as an exclusive lover than he probably was. From my perspective, just based on his actions, there is no denying at all that Patroclus was the one person Achilles loved more than himself. I think it's also likely that their relationship was surely not purely platonic. But as far as them being monogamous or Achilles having a lack of interest in women? I think that is where people are starting to twist things to fit their biases. From what I understand, Achilles probably was quite happy to hookup with women. He may have even loved one or two of them. Did he love them more than Patroclus? I don't think so. Mostly because Achilles's actions seem to suggest otherwise. Achilles was pretty much ready to die after Patroclus died. Apparently, he'd rather follow Patroclus into the underworld than remain with Briseis. As much as I appreciate The Song of Achilles as a tragically beautiful love story, I understand that it's not strictly sticking to the original myths. Nor does it have to. The book is still wonderful. I think the problem comes when people want to twist the myths to be like the book. You can certainly have your head canon, but don't try to force it on other people. And especially don't get mad at people who study the original myths for not agreeing with your head canon.

I study literature and in particular literature based on ancient religions or civilizations, Ancient Greece is also part of my studies and I am very interested in the story of Achilles, according to the elements that I have been able to studied and the texts that I have been able to read regarding Achilles and Patroclus is very likely that they were lovers even the way Homer describes them in his literature of the Iliad does not leave one indifferent to this idea, even if Homer ignores the nature of this relationship, but when we study literature it is often a question of how to interpret the writings according to what is presented to us, Achile who refuses to fight, Patroclus takes his place and dies at the hands of 'Hector, Achilles' anger, sadness and determination to avenge Patroclus or even die in battle as he feels that without Patroclus life is not worth living, Achilles who would rather die in battle than live without P atrocles, or even the way Achilles killed Hector and then desecrated his body by tying it to his chariot and dragging it all over the city of Troy, Achilles who resents Patroclus for having delivered himself to death and tells him that he has to forget the shared kisses, that for me comes out of the context of friendship. It should be known that in Ancient Greece it is known to all that homosexual relations were known and attested, especially homosexual relations between men, even if they were not known to the general public, in particular between a master and his pupil, or between a king and one of his favorite warriors, in the Iliad Achilles has no connection or even affinity with his men the Myrmidons and sometimes treats them very badly. it is only with Patroclus that Achilles is described as being tender, even though he had Briseis as his love and lover, Patroclus was his favourite, the one who was the attention, his world, once he lost Patroclus no longer mattered to Achilles. If the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is a friendship then it transcends all borders.

First of all I have to say that I have read none of the works mentioned nor have I studied anything related to them, so correct me if I'm wrong but do it nicely please. But I've seen a lot of comments saying that sure they were lovers because of this and that work. I just want to mention that she stated beautifully that we can not know whether or not they were. We will never know what the author of the Iliad intended. So it's all speculation. I'd just like to add the thought that authors from times passed describe friendship in a way that to us today would seem a very intense or a hidden or a beginning romantic relationship. I'm not saying anything, I just want to bring some further ideas into this discussion. But hey! I'm planning on reading the English translation of both the Iliad and the Odyssey in January!

Lovely video. :-] You communicate information clearly and concisely. Well done.

Thank you for making this video and sourcing from the text! I've been wondering.

What bothers me most is not the ambiguity, but the way people get SO defensive whenever anyone implies their relationship might've been romantic. Besides that, I very much doubt people would deny any romantic undertones so vehemently if one of them was a woman. Whatever unconscious bias we might have should be kept in check since we're talking about a completely different period, to which our current social conventions do not apply.

Really appreciated your review of the texts. Nicely done. I think that's what makes this a great topic to write about. It's myth and you can write about it in a number of ways.

Banged. Banged. Banged. Banged. Banged.

How interesting! I have been wanting to read more Greek Mythology. This is such a great idea!

Surprised this wasn't about speed skating, even more surprised to hear you reading ancient Greek. Thank you Prof. Libby! I really like your point about society valuing romantic relationships (gay or straight) more than friend relationships. My (tiny, illiterate) knowledge suggests that in earlier times a good friend was considered more valuable than today, when everything (incl friendship) is so sexualized. Achilles gay or bi, great. But what I see is that the Homer poet may well have been making a poetic statement or dichotomy for Achilles: "take my wife & I will not fight or kill for you, you've hurt my pride; when my friend is killed, I will avenge him by fighting & killing, a matter of my pride." It's a sort of see-saw.

Wish every professor be like you. It would be refreshing.

I don’t really think it matters a ton whether their relationship was platonic or romantic, but what we do know is that they were life partners, and that is the most important part of their relationship

Thank you so much for this video! I'm writing my first essay in uni on this topic, and although I realise a youtube vid is not a scholarly source, it gave me a core to work with :)

Brilliant ♥ I'm reading "The song of Achilles" right now, what's your opinion about it?

This was so beautiful. And what's even more is that I am surprised to see this material right in the present of 2018...and they say history is dead. Honestly I couldn't agree more with the evidence and such, I am only 17 years old but I have been engulfed by history ever since I was of a much younger age. Seeing you express the topic using straightforward evidence was interesting and once again, I honestly thought you speaking Ancient Greek was beautiful. I did not think that was even possible, what with many great civilizations losing their language down the ages-such as the Ancient Egyptians. But WOW!

um i'm just here for a school project, basically we need to do a music vid and i chose mr. loverman as song so i just wanna incorporate the anime which i watched (banana fish) and the story of achilles and patroclus with the mv lol-

This was a great video, you just gained a new fan Libby!

I totally agree with you. This current trend of erasing friendships is kind of creepy. I'm 100% okay with stories like Song of Achilles (one of the most well-written books, ever) and I'm fine with the stories that portray them as platonic. But there is a huge emphasis on promoting shipping over friendship and I think it's unhealthy and leads to some of the worst fanbases (like the fans attacking the actors for Bucky and Falcon for stating it's platonic). There is plenty of room for all kinds of love and instead of tearing down non-sexual, non-romantic love, we should build that up, too. I'd argue in many ways it can be even stronger and just as powerful.

Imagine going back in time and trying to explain this to Achilles. (If he existed)

they love each other very and deeply. change my mind.

"Achilles and Patroclus. . DID. THEY. BANG". - I died hahahahahahah

It doesn’t matter to me whether they were lovers, just friends, or their relationship didn’t grow beyond brothers in arms, what matters to me and what I feel is the takeaway from their stories is that they loved each other deeply. So deeply in fact that Achilles was willing to walk to his death with no armor to protect himself just for the chance to see Patroclus again. To love and be loved so deeply is the takeaway. Patroclus loved Achilles, and Achilles loved Patroclus. Achilles mourned and grieved, and he raged like a fire in the aftermath of losing his Patroclus. He was willing to do what he must to get his revenge and to somewhat dull the pain his heart was doubt feeling when Patroclus lay dead in his arms. To love someone without restrictions or limitations, to love just as fiercely even beyond death is something that is frightening, but so beautifully tragic that one can’t help but romanticize what they felt. Tragic love is what it was, tragic but ever so beautiful as it was precious. A love we all seek for ourselves. Whether your viewpoints be that they were platonic, or romantic, there is no denying that they were soulmates, and the universe, try as it may, could never separate them for very long. They were the true ride or die, and no other love story is as deep and as rich as theirs. Platonic or romantic, theres no denying that they loved and they loved so deeply. “He is half of my soul, as the poets say.”

Due to the myriad cultural and historical differences between our ideas of what friendship and romance look like, I think the question is one that won't really have an answer that's easy to define in our modern vocabulary. What we do know is that Achilles loved Patroclus more than life itself, otherwise his rage and bloodlust wouldn't have been so famous.

Greek mythology is extremely misunderstood. I wish they knew what it all means.

"Achilles and Patroclus did they bang?" I'm dead 🤣🤣

Brilliant!!! Thanks for sharing! Nameste

Well explained!!!

Very well done video!

as a greek I thank you for caring. great job

I wouldn’t wanna be buried with my best friend. Love her, but nah

Thank you so much, it was very helpful 🌷🌷🌷

could you write in greek the thing achilles called briseus cause i couldn't understand, please?

Lovers

The important question is "Would it have even mattered to their society, if they did, or didn't?" Probably not. After all, they would not have had children whether they did or didn't. That's sort of like asking a gay couple exactly what they do . . . if it's A or B or C or none of the above or all of the above, or only A&C or A&B or C&B ??? we don't care for all those precise details. The Greeks cared for even less details than we do now for "gay couples" that say they are "gay". It doesn't really matter in our society exactly what they do, specifically, except that they said they are a "gay couple". For the ancient Greeks, it didn't matter exactly what a male-male couple did, if anything, except that they were "philos", (male friends or loved ones) and they had phileo (love or devotion) to one another, and they had a philia for one another (male-male love) and possibly might of had Eros for each other as well, we don't know (erotic love, maybe with or without "banging together"). And they were together all the time. (a couple). It's best to describe Their Relationship with Greek Words, or English Words Derived from Greek, to help understand how they felt. "Friend" is a German word, that they Did Not Have "Friends" in ancient Greek, they had Philos (male loved ones). And they did not have the word "gay" or "homosexual" either. Different Cultures. They defined what one wanted to know about each other differently back then. And, sex wasn't a "sin" either, they didn't even have the word "sin" in their vocabulary (sin is Latin). They had Ethics (ethos meaning Character) and they had Philosophy. And they had Myths to explain the unexplainable, but they didn't rely on Religion to guide one through the difficulties of life ("Religion and Morality" are both Latin words) The Greeks used Philosophy to guide them in their lives. And they relied on Gnosis (knowledge) unlike many folks today. - - - Now, do I think they had Sex. Absolutely YES. I think that would have been the norm for a couple back then, an older Patroclus would have had his beloved Achilles, and adored him, and protected him, and slept with him too. And he died in battle wearing his armor, probably to Fight for Him, because he hadn't grown into his armor yet. For the record, there is no mention of Achilles have any erotic relationship with anyone, male or female. Ditto for Patroclus. Considering these were MALES, and they were not guilded males, or eunuchs, then sexuality was not viewed as a sin, and there was no concept of "celibacy for morality" then I think it highly likely they would have slept together affectionately. I think that's normal. As they got older, and had they survived, they likely would have taken young wives, Patroclus first, then Achilles would have mentored a younger male as Patroclus had done him, and then eventually Achilles would have married a female later. At the times of their marriages with females, they would have been Experienced, and likely grown tired of being with a male that grows ugly with age, and happily become married to a young teen female, with a Higher Age Difference than the male - male relationship. BTW, having male-male relationships was not considered "gay" or "queer" or anything unnatural or abnormal or different in any way. That is today's culture that defines male-male relationships as "weird, but lets support weird people". It was simply Reality. And the acceptance of natural love and desires.

I can't agree with you more on the point about friendships vs relationships and how friendship is far less important in modern fiction than relationships. I think this leads to many issues of interpretation of cultures throughout history and even the modern day.

I say they were lovers!

is the art in the thumbnail of achilles and patroclus or nisus and euralysus? bc ive heard both. sry kinda unrelated but just curius if anyone knows :)

there was a prophesy in i think that said he will die in the war but will be remembered so i don't think he would feel suprized that people remember him

I know nothing about Achilles and Patroclus, but this is such an awesome video!

he didnt love briseus she was literally just a prize and not having the prize is a disgrace apparently

why not both things?

Thank you so much for this. This info is really great and really helpful. Can you please clarify a bit? So the question of whether the events were real or not, is one thing. The question here is more about the ancient text (whether based on fact or fiction) overtly describing them as romantic lovers. Rather than platonic love of your cousin. So pretty much everything indicates platonic, and not romantic. With exception of a review by Plato of the Myrmidon play? Or is it the Myrmidon play itself that portrays romance between them? Also, what about the date of writing? Because it might have been the case that earlier original text/story traditions was was fully platonic (never indicating any romance between the cousins). but then, the other text might have come later as their sort of ancient Song of Achilles gay/romantic take on the stories. Also, what can you say about Patrolcus being older than Achilles? It seems that this was the case, and a misconception that Achilles was the older one. Also, really intelligent observation about society in romance. I have always had that idea of culture in the back of my mind. It's so true that our culture is severely lacking in understanding of platonic love. And indeed does go a bit overboard into imposing sexual and romantic motivations into things. In many cases, when it doesn't exist at all, and is clearly platonic. I think this happened in a book where the author might have had some original intent for Arya and Jon snow to evolve into romance. But then changed is mind. And the how much love there was in all the Stark siblings missing each other for a long time. But users insisting it was romantic.

The only way anyone can know the truth is by being there at that moment..anybody can write anything about Achilles ..I mean he was famous enough..

can you please give us a slight idea about achilles age when he died , please

The kind of love Achilles had for Patroclus transcended lust or physical pleasure. I believe they were the best of friends, souls sworn to eternity. They were BROS. I think it would have been directly mentioned if they smashed because that is vital info.

Very good overview! As for queer portrayals of Achilles & Patroclus - just yesterday the BBC series Troy: Fall of a City gave us the (to my knowledge) first primetime portrayal of them as lovers. (They also have a threesome with Briseis, so by modern standards they're both bi in this version.) Since it's an ensemble show where most characters & relationships are only painted in broad strokes I assume they chose this route as a shortcut to make us understand Achilles' wrath when Patroclus dies (because like you said, our society does put more emphasis on romantic relationships). I'm very much in favour of this, though, because pop culture in the last century has given us countless deep male friendships (usually the ones that have a big slash following, unsurprisingly - from Sherlock & Watson over Kirk & Spock to Starsky & Hutch) and more queer people on tv (and queer people of colour in the case of Troy: Fall of a City, since both Achilles and Patroclus are portrayed by black actors) is a good thing in my book. Anyways, I do apologise for rambling - as you can tell, this is a topic near and dear to my heart. And now I'm going to check out your review of Maurice, one of my all-time favourite books. :)

lovers yes bang bang bang bang

how about friends to lovers?

LOVERS !!!!!!!

Came after that infamous comparison shown in NBC's Hannibal

The game Hades brought me here.

I don’t understand what she said she thinks. They were lovers or just friends?

Do I have to write an epic poem for my d&d game?..

One thing to remember, that most people don't mention, is that the name Patroclus means 'glory of the father' and has another form which is Kleopatras. The female form of this name is, believe it or not, Cleopatra. Therefore it's most likely that Patroclus was not, as most people think, younger than Achilles, but older, and was a kind of father figure to Achilles. Possibly in a way which anticipates the later Greek practice of Pederasty. It is also likely that Patroclus was thus not that person's given name, but his nickname, or some form of title. I think their relationship has to be informed by this knowledge. Although, as I seem to recall reading in the Illiad, when Patroclus had fallen in battle, Homer has Achilles going to bed and 'longing for his [Patroclus's] manhood'. Now, even through the minefield of translations and linguistics, I think there can be little doubt left from this line of text that despite the father/son-like relationship they had, there was (just as in the Pederastic relationships) a distinct sexual element. Notwithstanding, as Achilles went through his life-journey, although his relationship must have been (sic) a sexual one with Patroclus, he still felt himself falling in love with a woman. As most men tend to do! Even if the Illiad was indeed just a 'novel' (which I believe is not the case, but forms a testament to genuine historical events), it is still a worthy exercise, despite the lack of historicity of the characters, to decipher what Homer was trying to insinuate or assert, in order to understand fully Homer's text. After all, it was utterly central to later Greek and indeed Roman culture. Alexander the Great of course famously thinking of himself as the modern-day (of those times) Achilles, and having his own personalised copy made of the Illiad which he kept with him on his conquests. His relationship with Hephaestion being unquestionably sexual attesting to his own 'understanding' of Achilles and Patroclus's relationship with each other. Alexander later becoming infatuated with Roxana, the Bactrian princess, just like Achilles with Briseis. When you take all this into account, I think Achilles and Patroclus's relation is pretty much self-evident. It's more our modern, all encompassing concept of 'homosexuality' which attempts to put people into artificial 'pigeonholes' which is brough into question by the ancient literature.

I will now ignore the fact that i ever saw this. They are and will forever be fruity to me.

I could care less about Archilles and Patroclus being gay. I think that what Libby says, that Achilles would be proud that after about 3,000 years we are still talking about Him. If he existed in the first place. I would also LOVE to learn more about what Libby knows about Ancient Greece and new evidence from the digs and findings over there.

Homer didnt I imply they were more then friends I think, i prefer to think of them as best friends almost like brothers hence achilles grief.

What about achilles and atalanta

very good very nice

Prefer Madeline Miller’s view on this matter

Well to be fair since it's been said Homer's Iliad came from oral tradition and so many aspects that were not included in the Iliad eventually came to be accepted as canon , I think it's valid to say they they were lovers. There's plenty of other stuff like Achilles's heel, Cassandra's prophetic nature by apollo, Neoptolemus and Andromache, Philoctetes, Paris' death that doesn't appear in the Iliad but has become so engrained in the telling of the trojan war. At this point I don't think the trojan war belongs to Homer's Iliad alone.

Achilles falling for Briseis doesn't bother me. Heck even Odysseus, who won't stop talking about his wife had other lovers,

In my opinion, I believe that its hard to tell if they were friends or lovers. We can just tell them as 2 people that lived being in each others life until the story goes on in more detail. Why can you ask? First of all we dont know if the story that was told in "Iliad" was even real when we dont even know if the "Trojan war" happened since the lady also said that the time is called "The dark circle" and noone os sure of what happened they are just some stories that are told after and some poems that were found. Secondly, yes we all know that in greek mythology it was common for them to be gay and tes for them to cheat in there wifes and yes to have boy/girlfriend even when they are married since from the ancient greek mythology that was very common and that maybe made it even interesting but we cant just say that bcs Pluto said that when he was also based in "Iliad" right? The thing is that there are not really any evidence that proves that they were gay or straigh or were in friendship or realtionship so everyone can believe that they were lovers or friends since we dont know exactly who is right even if we study really deep. Thats my opinion bcs really think about that time was called "The dark circle" we dont even know if they even existed so we dont really know much just the last 3 weeks of The Trojan war

I believe love is subjective and the line between either platonic and romantic love is often blurred in the process of understanding one's feelings of fondness. Although there is evidence that does not suggest explicit confirmation of the kind of relationship they had or limit it as merely best friends, the gestures of inseparable companionship and the depth or richness of their coming-of-age even until death was something impactful and cannot be qualified by mere storytelling alone as it was a given that Patroclus adored Achilles in all his raw and glorious qualities and Achilles cared and mourned him deeply and greatly in their lifetime. This may or may not necessarily be equated to platonic or romantic love but the idea that these gestures alone could define lovers proves an undeniable connection that bonded their souls in their lifetime which was not a result of the queer celebration in modernity nor a devaluation of friendship over romantic love. Facts just speak for themselves, If evidence suggests that they yearned to mix their bones and ashes, then it could mean a grand gesture of eternity would it not? Love should be celebrated and in all the proof layered down to characterize their gestures even without sufficient description of mental or emotional states and interest would still reveal and yield similar interpretations of romantic or even platonic love as soulmates, and that is not to be ashamed of a hero.

OF COURSE Achilles and Patroclus were not only the best of friends, they were deeply in love.

I just like Achilles destroying people in battle. They keep saying he was a lover and they call his cousin 2 names which is messed up. Movie was epic wished they had done Odessa after.

whos here to understand Hannibal's metaphor to Will

The woman (I don't know her name in English) wasn't a sex tool, she was a trophy, non of them really cared about her, it was all about pride. I am from Greece and I have read it it doesn't say anything about Achilles loving her

Alexander and Hephastian did exist tho

1:18 1184 seems like a pretty close date not out of his @ss

Question if what you say is true (and it seems like it is I just like to research on my own before I fully believe something and you just give me new sources please don't get offended 🙏)what is your take on Alexsander the great and Hephaiston their realationship and the fact that they compared themselves to Achilles and pat. Make a video if your willing or if it's simple then just comment or which ever you prefer if you choose to respond please do 🤞