I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned but I was able to setup my first wall reflection points with a mirror and a helper. This can also be done solo if you have a long mirror. First sit in your listening position, then have your helper move the mirror left to right until you see the tweeters from your listening position. That is where the absorption acoustic panels should be placed. I’ve done this for both walls and plan to do the ceiling. It really does make a big difference. Enjoy those Aspens.
In my 45 years of designing and calibrating the very best in high end audio, there are a couple very important aspects of acoustics and the sound you should understand. First thing that is the most essential is understanding the importance of speaker placement. Speaker placement effects and determines the overall bass response ( by its proximity to room boundary’s ) but also effects midrange, and high frequency’s tone and spacial cues. Soundstaging ! “You Cannot “ get good sound without it and you cannot get good speaker placement with ANY acoustic treatment in the room. That’s right, speaker placement must be done with NO acoustic treatment, you want to hear the interaction of the room and the speakers as you find the ideal speaker placement in the room. Once that is determined then and only then can you begin to fine tune the sound to your desired listening tastes. Next is too many people think you want an acoustically dead or damped room. That again couldn’t be farther from the truth. What you will realize when playing with speaker placement, AND you get closer to the ideal speaker placement in a room, the colorations of the room will start and almost completely disappear. Your essentially tuning the speakers ( and system ) to the room ! Yes, you are tuning out the colorations of the room, NOT tuning the room to the speakers. Once perfect speaker placement has been achieved you will then realize you need very little to almost no acoustic treatment. And even then you need to be very careful of the choice in acoustic treatment and placement to get the right sound. Diffusion is best in most situations or very light weight acoustic material that does not absorb sound but very slightly delays the sound. Absorption creates more problems that helps. The other issue with absorption is it creates comb filtering effects, which is absorption at certain frequency’s and not at others. Peaks and valleys in the frequency’s response. Why in many high end sound rooms you see little to even no absorption materials. As for floor and ceiling issues, I do recommend a lightweight rug or area rug to address reflections between the floor and ceiling. The ceiling does not need to be treated. Understand that slap echo issues only occurs between two parallel surfaces, and only one of those surfaces needs to be addressed to eliminate that issue. So addressing floor to ceiling issues the floor is the better option, back wall slight absorption, no absorption on the front wall. If anything slight diffusion. Understand reflections are good, you just need to slightly delay reflections. They enhance dynamics and soundstaging. A 1ms to 1.5ms delay is ideal.
Do you have experiences or opinions on companies such as Acoustic Fields that design and sell products and services to help treat a room/building etc…?
very good points, yes!, that's the basic and a most! (instead think about DAC, FLAC Files, JBL or Denon.... as a lot of humans do) *the importance of speaker placement* of course and that's a topic that hundreds of people don't point, they say "this system has better bass, the treble is horrible, the subwoofer is bad quality" even invent names as "deep bas, dried bass, semi-deep bass, dynamic bass", I just changed the position and the place of my Sony subwoofer and the sound changed a lot! *you need to be very careful of the choice in acoustic treatment and placement to get the right sound* absortion and diffusion are things in the last steps accord to the choice of acoustic treatment, once the place of speakers are well achieved. I would add: *please consider the music you will listen*
@@codyhuber The higher the ceiling the better. 8' ceilings cause problems at 70Hz, 140Hz, 280Hz, 350Hz 9' ceilings 62Hz, 124Hz, 186Hz, 248Hz, 310Hz 10' ceilings 56Hz, 112Hz, 168Hz, 224Hz, 280Hz 11' ceilings 51Hz, 102Hz, 158Hz, 204Hz, 265Hz 12' ceilings 47Hz, 94Hz, 141Hz, 188Hz, 235Hz The bass must be addressed or the bass will be uneven. Acoustic Fields makes products to correct this with its carbon based technology.
Is an outdoor space perfect (in theory), I think for live sound especially. Because, you don't have a lot of reflection problems and frequency response should be almost perfect
As a kid in rural Iowa I would take my guitar amp outside so I could crank it and get nice distortion without ruining my ears or upsetting my parents. Nothing can recreate that sound, specifically hearing the sound once without any reflections. No diffusion, no absorbers, nothing but raw sound. FWIW.
just with a sophisticated recording system and microphones could be possible get an aproximate (or good) recreation of your guitar and amp experience. of course it is not the same than Live audio : )
i wonder how i would like the sound of that room, a room i would consider a live room. for music only it could be good except for the bass that is. but i do not have a dedicated music room, and for that environment i would use thick pure absorbers, a lot of them. the quiet and clarity from overly damped rooms are a aural treat :) maybe at the cost of stereo music reproduction but everything else is improved. acoustics are important since humans do not like room sounds, we like nature.
Amroc Room Mode Calculator is a great start to determine where the issues will be then REW for room measurement is the way to go. More traps definitely needed
Hey Paul Greetings. I'm in the process of getting into the PS Audio chain incl. the FR30's and have been in touchbwith Caleb and Travis as well. My room size and space is less than idea measuring 18'×14'×8'. With part wall and glass sliding doors on the left side and at the same at the back while full glass on the right side. Regarding acoustic treatments could you guide me as to what I should do? Also I if I were to place the speakers at its ideal location , I dint think I'll get a first reflection point which I made to treat as that me end up being the glass door and the full glass as mentioned above. I could go for diffusers on the celing, but I'm not sure about the sides and the front and back. I could partially block the sliding doors on the side and behind the listing position with any treatment if necessary. Also would you look at putting an absorbavie roman blinds on the wall behind the speakers or diffusers. I do have a book shelves and a large 82" TV on that wall. I can block it with the pull down blinds . My goal is to get a holographic sound. Thanks for all the effort you put into your videos. I've learned a lot from them. PS: I own both your books and your cd and dsd files. Thanks a lot Sajjad #askpaul #PaulMcgowan #PSAudio @PaulMcGowen
hi paul. how important is it to panel the ceiling? i dont really have much space on the ceiling as i have the star effect lcd's. i could fit 2 on there more at the sides ,so is it for me worth doing? thanks
Every once in awhile, after about a half hour set up, I'll take a little 12 watt tube integrated and vintage speakers outside on my open patio. Vintage used setup I paid around $300 for..it sounds absolutely fabulous with wide and deep soundstage and imaging. Better than my main stereo I've put thousands into but without treatment due to wifey. They cheap outdoor setup sounds great due to no reflections. I take that same little $300 set up into the house and the magic is gone.
I'm thinking about your sentence XD I like more and I choose a dance floor with the Disco Ball instead a music room / audio room, if the music plays so good, the dance room would not be enough 🎶💃
What about the Dr. Floyd Toole research and his findings about the reflections being mostly beneficial in the usual living room environment? After reading his book, I'm thinking that treatment is really not necessary in most residential properties.
Asymmetrical rooms and have a great benefit think of a movie theatre vaulted ceilings and flanged walls, it’s a little expensive if you’re not doing your own work. I work as a contractor so it’s not a big deal for me, also a dedicated 20 amp circuit oversized with 10 gauge. I agree with everything Paul said from my experiences.I’d rather spend $3000 on getting a room right I’m buying a new piece of equipment.
If you want great room acoustics, I suggest looking at Acoustic Fields products. They are in a whole other league. Their products will fix all the bass problems that other companies only claim to fix, but can't.. Even Paul admits PS Audio's room has bass issues.
Agreed. I too have a dedicated listening room with a combination of Vicoustic, Real Traps and Prinacoustic bass traps, absorbers and diffusers. Still have bass issues. If I was to do it all over again I'd be using Acoustic Fields products for sure, even though freight to New Zealand would be expensive. I too think they are in another league compared to the rest. If you haven't heard of the them, check out their RU-vid content. Lots to learn and plenty of acoustic myths debunked.
For first reflections, these panels are fine: 5 cm depth with 2,5 cm of air gap is enough. More important to me is to avoid mineral fiber. For low-end, absorption panels wouldn't feet nicely in the room.
@@Jorge-Fernandez-Lopez Thicker panels all round would help the lowend , you could quite easily get 8 inch panels on the walls there using some Binary Diffusion
@@BoredSilly666 20 cm of absortion, which is approximately 8 inch, is good for 429 Hz and higher that will kill the mids and highs: rooms low-end resonances won't change. That's why they use to cover these absorption panels with MDF (with "holes") to inactive these panels and look nice. Diffusion isn't usually used for low-end. I have found water bottles more useful than thin (under 0,5 m) absorption for room modes. However, thick panels are good for frequencies that are cancelled.
Them speakers need a World class sub beside them. No chance in a room the big will they generate enough low end. 8in drivers will distort at sound pressure levels exceeding 90dB. Need some 18in subs.
That's what I'm hearing as well. I do wonder however if a show room shouldn't, as this one, be minimally treated, so visitors aren't getting the wrong impression (that what they're hearing would be impossible to replicate in e.g. their living room without going overboard treating their home environment, which to some extent is true).
@@peterw2714 Of course not. But the worst audiophiles tend to do apart from not using any acoustic treatment is to opt for cheap building insulation that covers the wrong spectrum and at the wrong rates - that way, they're effectively deadening the room while preserving the brightness.
@@peterw2714 actually, they produce bass when correctly placed in the room. I have them placed 18” from the side and 12” from the rear, per the setup guide. My wife complains that the windows are vibrating in our bedroom that’s on the other side of the the house.
My Bose $99.00 computer speakers need no treatment whatsoever. No electricity plug needed. They fill a large 14 x 12 room with their itty bitty teensy weensy speakers plugged into the teensy weensy headphone jack. Playing HiRes 24/192 music. I have the best Audiophile system on my side of the railroad tracks.
@@machavez00 i’m glad they’re working out for you. when you’re ready to upgrade I would suggest watching the RU-vid channel cheapaudioman. Although I’m glad to see Bose it’s finally using tweeters most audiophiles gave up Bose a long time ago. A decent satellite sub combo would be an upgrade.
Vicoustic panels work. However... They have repeatedly sold glue, for their panels, that had expired. I treated my room with Vicoustic panels. I purchased their glue, as well as to have the panels professionally installed. After 6 months, the panels started coming down. One came down while I was sleeping. It woke me up. it was not an unnerving experience. It became an uncomfortable situation, because I never knew when the next panel would come down, who it might hit, or what equipment it might hit. So why didn't I simply replace the panels with better glue. I eventually did. It took 2 years for Vicoustic to honor their warranty. That's right. For 2 years, I was calling them and e-mailing them. My audio store, from where I purchased the panels, was also contacting them, without getting them to honor their warranty. Vicoustic's personnel were reachable. But they kept making excuses for not replacing the panels. Finally, they did. And guess what. They shipped me the same glue, and it was, again, expired. This time I hired professionals, recommended by the high-end store from where I purchased my stereo. They did not use the Vicoustic glue. They purchased some other glue from Home Depot. Note that the glue is in tubes, deposited form a glue-gun. Also note that, depending on the panels, the surface area on the back of the panel will be approximately ¼ of an inch. That, too, contributes to the adhesive, contact area (or lack of contact area) for the panel to remain on the wall/ceiling. If you order Vicoustic panels, you will probably order their glue. When you get their glue, look at the "Best Used By" date, stamped at the nozzle area of the tubes of glue. If it has expired, do not use it. During my 2 year encounter with various Vicoustic personnel, I learned from them, directly, that many companies were suing them, for their panels coming down. One of those companies is Microsoft. By all means, purchase their panels and enjoy the improvement in your listening experience. But prepare yourself. Make sure you, or the person you will be using to install the panels, knows about glue formulations and purchases a type that will hold up over the years. Mine were re-done, with different glue, 4 or 5 years ago, and not one has come down. I have asked Paul, in other videos, if any of his panels have come down. He has not replied.
If you know what you are doing then you need no room acoustic treatment in any room. Just imagine all the house wives that see all these panels in their living rooms . Yes you just sold yourself short on a lot of FR30's . We do acoustic time alignment stability design technology solutions ,that does not need anything of that clutter ,that the wife does not want to see on the walls. The woman is the key in the household to get your speakers sold into any home and if you don't focus on them to get your speakers into a home, then you are selling yourself short every time. We don't live in studios and when the women gives the greenlight in the house then the sale is done. I've been in the audio industry for 37 years and now by know ,that you need to get the concent from the housewife with the help of the kids, then the deal is done. Then the husband just has to buy.
I'm turning an old armory's basketball gymnasium into a live music venue, and the ceiling was sprayed with 2 inches of polyurethane foam and 4 inches of Ure-K fire and acoustic rated cellulose. The acoustic cellulose cost eight times as much as the polyurethane foam.
to much stuff dont even look like a room I set my speakers where you cant see them much and then tune the system to where it sounds great with all the tricks I know
LOL $30,000 speakers, $20,000 in room treatment, and "there are pretty major suck outs and boom points that we did the best we could you know following the rules and the guide..." I guess how much you spend isn't really the answer after all.😂
Sorry, Paul, a room is a room. Bass will always be problematic. The problem is, you have no option but to get it right in the sweet spot. I am sure that you already have that. I don't think there is any solution for that. My room is no different lol.
All rooms are different, if you dont believe me simply look up Amroc room mode calculator to confirm this by imputing different room sizes for instance
@@BoredSilly666 I would not (and I don't) go for science and technology calculatros to analyze the auido specturm, I would do the same with my ears and my brain, I'm the one that will hear it, I'm the perfect software and hardware to determine how good and how I like my music room (and my car audio)
@@georgemartinezza It was an example of how rooms are different, simply by dimensions. If the guy thinks all rooms are the same hes wrong, that was just a way of him to find out, i never said rely on it once and I cant be bothered to argue with someone with the narrative of I just use my Ears. Do you think I dont or something?
@@BoredSilly666 yes friend, I agrre, I think the same that's why I pointed my comment so for others. _rooms are different, simply by dimensions_ and so, a lot of other factors make the music or the movie "sound different" no matters how you work in whatever wall. your own eara are the best guide for your room for your music. yes.
So...in a room designed for listening, with 30,000.00 speakers, and the very best gear that you make, with a shitload of room treatment...you still need to add more...hmmmmmmmmm
Whoa whoa whoa! What kind of crazy talk is this, son?! You _always_ need to add more to your setup! A.B.A. -- A: Always. B: Be. A: Adding. Put that coffee down!! Coffee is for adders! We don't tolerate that "I think that might be enough" subversion around here. Now go buy some magnetically shielded optical cables until you come back to your senses.
At least he realized that the room makes the music - bass traps are nonsense for fools - you can bass only treat with membrane or diaphragmatic absorbers
What contradiction? From what I'm gathering, the standing waves in the room are such that the response uneven unless one is sitting in the sweet spot. That's normal for rooms with parallel walls, especially of course untreated rooms. And there appear to be no bass traps, at least none that I can see (they'd have to be be in the corners behind the main speakers, instead the corners are angled to bring down reflections higher up in the spectrum). Personally, I'd go for active bass traps when money is no concern (as in this case), since passive take up a lot of space. Or just leave the room as is and accept only three people sit in or near the sweet spot at a time. That's what I do, but then, I don't have a show room and am not welcoming guests, and when I do have a fellow audiophile over, needless to say I'll sit that person in the sweet spot. And it's true, for the short time I then spend e.g. sitting further back, I'm noticing too much, somewhat boomy bass there.
@@LeonFleisherFan He had some build in in the front corners at the corner angles on the walls, if you look at earlier videos you can see them before they were covered over , however being into acoustics myself it looks like there simply isnt enough , or deep enough wall panels in my opinion.]
@@BoredSilly666 who is "Pink Fluffy" and why should i give a shit about another random foll in the audioworld full of fools with little to no education? it's a matter of physics
You really need thicker panels to control the low end, 8 inches minimum if possible. You simply dont have enough treatment to help your low end other than that beautiful room and equipment.
It's troubling knowing they're fully aware of problematic peaks and suckouts plaguing the reference room ... yet insisting a preference for minimal treatment, wtf? I mean Paul's great, solid team, etc, but it's boggled my mind from the beginning, the lack of any legit acoustic plan for these rooms. No real acoustician level involvement or impact on his rooms. All I see is acoustic treatment sales. That silly helmholtz resonator bass trap idea in there initial room build was hard to watch. (yes, I politely pointed out their misguided direction) Perhaps that's harsh, but sadly it's true. These rooms need control down low... I can't imagine the excessive LF decay times. Plus, getting a handle on bass decay diminishes boundary interference peaks/nulls, which by his description and reaction are a significant issue. There's so much they could've done during the construction phase, so easy, so cost effective. That rounded front wall behind the speakers focuses LF energy right down the middle of the room ... summation intermittently additive and destructive. If one insists pursuing the no measurement, by ear route, then simply deploy bass trapping, faced with diffusion. As much as possible, zero potential downside. That aside, I dig what Paul's done. He's forged his path, successfully, and shared it all. The PS Audio workplace seems positive, which can't be said everywhere. A big eye opener would be to get a stack of roll insulation in each corner. Or rectangular bales of Rockwool, in plastic ... A dramatic transformation would occur. Bass resolution and clarity would explode.
@@FOH3663 I totally agree and have been trying to tell folk on here but they wont listen. At home I have done exactly what you have said. Done my whole front wall to 20" depth added diffusion where needed and done the same on rear wall, 20" bass traps with some diffusion, 150mm Cloud depth and 150mm for side walls. My front and rear wall is a giant stack of Rockwool. Floor to ceiling, Full width. With Pauls budget, layout and contacts he could do so much better.
@@BoredSilly666 Sounds great. That's what's needed to effectively damp the LF decay rate. Without ample LF damping, bass clarity suffers, inadequate bass resolution, leading edges and pitch definition is obscured. The punch and transient clarity is fun, but delineation of bass texture is the ultimate goal ... once established, it's difficult settling for less.
