Please let me know what you think! I'd love for everyone to have some high-quality discussion about the game in the comments. We'll be back to entertaining gameplay and guides with the next video!
I feel the ranged damage piint is carried by gear since they usually (at least for wizard) deals lower base damage than melee options most wizards agree that if you aren't stacking at least +7 true damage you cant compete
@devteam let me first start off by saying: (IM SO SICK OFF BALANCE CHANGES) remove zone battle royal gameplay. Combine the maps into a single map. This should play like sword art online. The deeper you go the harder it gets the better the rewards. Your gameplay loop should look like cycle or tarkov with a persistent map. Repopulate the map with loot/mobs and allow players to join in And extraction whilst the map is still up and PERSISTENT. This will give VARIABILITY in the gameplay loop. If I’m new I can stay at the top of the map and escape after I’ve farmed / quested while dealing with less geared people because gear people go deep for better loot and better bosses. Having everyone play their different gameplay loops together allows for more interactions and more fun. PERSISTENT MAP FTW SUBNOTE: FUCK MULTICLASSING PLAYTEST 1-3 still my fav
great video! love your ideas. especially the gear disparity and economy, it really sucks. I dont agree with the ranged meta issue as hitting your shots requires more skill compared to the W+Mouse1 melee classes that either outrun or ambush most ranged classes, tank/ block shots or throw an infinite number of knives/ axes.
What tool did you use to visualize all of your points? It's incredibly easy to read, even before you drawing on it in real time to emphasize points. Extremely well done, goddamn!
This is excellent video. Well researched, clear points, and honestly professionally delivered. I think this is going to make some good discussion in both the player space and the dev space.
Im starting to learn how to make games to make my own dnd but a real Extraktion dark fantasy. Dnd have so much Potenzial but im abosluty not fine about what the devs to about the last year.
I'm a senior software engineer/designer at a game dev company, 5 years experience I agree on all points, just wanted to leave a comment for the algorithm
I'm literally the same, around 6-7 years exp and senior softwater engineer in a game dev company, and I agree with everything said. You are on point. I just hope they listen!
Well done my friend. As a fellow hobbyist I just have to say, you've demonstrated better communication, better thought leadership and a better roadmap in 20 minutes than we've seen from this game in the last year. Well said. I don't agree with 100% of all your ideas here, but any plan is better that what we have now. I commend you.
I have had basically the same conversations with my friends who play the game. Very succinct and delivered super professionally. I hope this video gets the traction and attention from iron mace that it deserves.
I agree with a lot of the video but I feel like a couple of the points are just wrong. The base stats on uniques are very high compared to blue, but the way stats work in DaD means the value of those stats on the higher end HEAVILY fall off in value, so a person in full uniques is not 75% stronger than a blue geared person, but much less. Not only that, the amount of low counterplay cheese in the game makes getting very geared (Which should be one of the main motivations) feel kinda meh, especially in solos/duos. Gear is insane, and a majority of the playerbase is still scared to run anything higher than blues, making gear worse wouldn't help this in my opinion. Second point was about "Make random modifiers worse and make base stats better", Ironmace did this, we had this exact patch for around a week, and a majority of the playerbase said it was the most boring the game ever was, hence it instantly getting reverted. There was 0 build diversity, finding loot was not hype or exciting, if you found a piece of gear one rarity higher than the one you are currently wearing, you always picked it up to wear with 0 thought. There was no thought about what stats you need or if it has added damage it was just "oh I went from a green chest to a blue so now I'm 10% stronger". Which would only make the gear problem worse, because now you can't build specific attributes on green/blue gear to beat higher geared players, you will just always be out geared and lose against anyone with higher rarity items. Random attributes also add hype / rng to looting chests and bosses. I agree with a lot of the video and the format of actual constructive criticism was a breath of fresh air, but I respectfully disagree when it comes to gear.
Yeah it might be a product of the low ttk at the moment but I can’t remember a single one of my deaths recently that was because of better gear, its almost always bad positioning. If ranged damage was nerfed and the combat is more melee focused I can foresee a lot of statchecking tho.
I had a lot of topics I wanted to cover in this video, and definitely didn't represent them all as deeply as I would have liked. Like if we remove random modifiers completely, then I do think we'll have to have at least one other minor system that adds diversity, complexity, and more options while gearing up. Just as a random example, the devs previously mentioned a gear socketing system like in Diablo II. I remember that brief day or two where they tried the lower strength gear. Both sides for and against were very vocal at that time, but I feel like they did not leave that experiment running long enough to get good data. Regarding low gear players beating higher geared players, I do think lower geared players will have a much better chance if the gear disparity is lower. Finally, I wish that getting gear isn't the only goal in this game. I want Guilds/Clans where we can all contribute to building our guild hall, duel in a training room, etc. Also Hideouts that we can upgrade and customize. More customization unlocks in the future, and so on. Remember 4 or 5 player boss raids they once mentioned? I can see a lot of fun potential in this game besides acquiring the best gear.
the TTK has been 1-3 hits for at least a year, damage scales way faster than Vigor or Armor rating and on top of that they buffed headshot damage but left helmets only use being to give you more physical power, after that I gave up on the game as any skill expression was dead and buried
I wish I had also covered scaling (especially upper end), since I think this is a reoccurring problem and it gets out of hand in this game. You are right about damage scaling harder than survivability.
Nerfing ranged damage isn't really needed, there's one super easy fix to make physical ranged not so bad...REMOVE SLOW ON HIT FOR RANGED AND INCREASE IT FOR MELEE. For Magic, nerfing the random damage values will help but they should also just get rid of any 'hit scan' attacks like Zap, Holy Strike, CoP, or Lightning Strike. All ranged should be skill shots and be blockable. They should then reduce the recoil you get from blocking without needing a perk so you are more incentivized to bring a shield and running without one is now a bigger disadvantage.
This was such a wonderfully put together discussion. I really love how you phrased your criticisms, and it is clear that you are coming from a place of love for the game. The number 1 thing that makes me rage quit/instant exit to desktop is when I either get kited to all hell (or have a zero-movement ranged fight of endless spam), or when I try and finally take the fight and the melee battle ends in 2-3 swings. If I bring in high PDR, I get kited/burst by magic damage, and if I go with MR/high mobility I get chipped by physical range damage. It is like so many of my fights are coin-tosses if I built my kit better than the other person! I've been playing battle royales and extraction games for years now, and some HR fights in DaD feel like the least agency I've had in any video game, specifically when it comes to how much influence I have over the outcome of a fight. There are some techniques that high-level DaD players have gotten used to to regain some of this agency that I just don't think are healthy playstyles for the average person (including door spam, range spam, dancing to avoid range spam, and unbalanced movement speed differences). Normal games before multi-classing felt like we were closer to this type of combat balance I've been hoping for, but now even normal games feel like pseudo-HR matches with how much the TTK has decreased with all these additional stats flying around (like slayer, spear prof, and other various shenanigans). Again, this was so well put together and I'm thankful to have a good place to share some more thoughts about the game that isn't toxic.
Think you hit the nail on the head! amazing video! I personally just cant stand playing during this multiclassing phase which pains me as I love this game.
More people gotta see this, not only the devs. I really hope this gets to other dark and darker content creators and they also chime in on their ideas for the game. Ideally the conversations should be had to refine and brung out some synergy between content creators
You have summarized and brilliantly articulated all of the key issues I have with the game. It has 100% been frustrating continuing to see repeated mistakes. Well done.
Really well argued points overall, though I do think the numbers you brought up when talking about gear are misleading. Stats from gear are added onto base stats, so going from +1 str to +6 str isn't a 600% increase overall. It's something like +1% physical damage bonus going to +6% physical damage bonus on a fighter, or less if the str is high enough. Still, I 100% agree that it's an issue. The most fun time on Dark and Darker was that one day where gear was bad.
I still think that an arena would be healthy for dark and darker. While it does pull focus away from the core gameplay loop, it accomplishes two other things. It lets new players dip their toes into pvp in a controlled environment, where they not only aren't risking gear, but they also actually get to try to learn the combat, vs getting ambushed, panicking, and getting frustrated.( I've seen a lot of new people quit after their first pvp experience. ) Secondly, it gives the hardcore pvp players a place to go, separate from normal lobbies. While that would mean less populated lobbies overall, it would let hardcore vets get their pvp fix, and newbies could have a little more breathing room in normal lobbies.
I've played since playtest 1, and I have a long history of balance thought and discussions under my belt across many games ranging from casual to competitive, thus I've decided to give my thoughts on the gear balance of dark and darker; which is where the majority of the games balance issues stem from. Ultimately it boils down to how Ironmace has chosen to balance the gear in the game; specifically damage vs resistances. Now what do I mean by that? Simply put there is an imbalance caused by the relation between resistances and damage in the game where the damage has been continuously raised to match resistances. This leads to a disparity between damage and non resistance builds where if you aren't running a resistance build you get 2-3 tapped if not one shot by a high burst damage build (looking at you add damage) or on the other end some builds require true damage to even be able to fight resistance builds. This all came about because Ironmace decided to buff damage to match resistances, except in rogues case where they couldn't buff damage due to modifiers in their perks so they buffed pen instead. There are 3 ways to fix this but I will highlight the one that I think will be healthiest for the games balance in the long run. Cap resistances at 50% and balance the weapon and spell base damage as well as add and true damage around it from there. This will help with the overall balance of the game and tone down the absurdly low time-to-kill vs non resistance builds, as well as leave room for perk and skill re-balancing that will not be pen/damage focused. my thoughts over 2 years of playing this game - Shickkz
This is a good video, its time to have these kind of honest discussions about the game if we want it to be here in the future. It may be critical, but his is the opposite of dooming, this is what putting actions behind your hopes looks like. One alternative to the 3-tier map backpack space issue, and its a band-aid we need to rip off eventually anyway: reduce the abundance of gear drops across the board. Loot drops have been buffed several times over in attempt to "equalize" the gear disparity issue and make gear easy to acquire for all. The result was increased inflation, and the same stratification between employed and unemployed, and those with game knowledge and those without. You can loot purples in your spawn room and yet gear disparity is as bad, or worse than its ever been. Less gear in circulation would mean even the wealthiest players would be running bis less often, lowering the acceptable window of gear to bring into HR considerably. Removing trade entirely would take this concept even further, and not much would be lost in the process IMO if they also nerfed random modifiers and reduced gear disparity. The gear you find in the dungeon would be more useful, even if it doesn't have the "correct" RNG rolls. There is nothing HaRdCoRe about a game where you make and spend the majority of your money on Instacart. It just makes the gameplay loop feel cheap. *we need to remember, this trade/reselling centric version of the game was DIRECTLY LOBBIED FOR by special interest groups mentioned briefly at **18:00** , namely the LordCollector Discord, Dytch, and Mendo. These people passed around petitions to quit the game, called it boring and abused their relationship with Ironmace to get the patches that nerfed gear disparity REVERTED in under 12 hours, this happened TWICE around hotfix 16-18 era. These people are where the "the entire game is gear, if they nerf gear the game will die, scrubs just need to git gud gear disparity is not a problem" etc. sentiments come from. That shit is literal propaganda.*
@@xxDrone95 Yep, its been this way since the playtest days. streamers get free gear, top leaderboards, and then form an "elite discord". Elite discord confers with the devs on the direction the game should go. Gets changes that benefit their playstyle, get their viewers to brigade any discussions that gain momentum that suggest otherwise. RU-vid keeps deleting my comment for a sketchy link but look up "Jay's thoughts about the devs catering towards streamers" on the DaD subreddit, the top comment has ALL the receipts lmao.
Very well put together, these suggestions clearly come from high game experience and knowledge. You understand the sistems Fully and is taking a neutral stance about the game without bias we see all the time on reddit and discord: "buff my class, nerf everything else" You perfectly hit every single important aspect of the game, and how to fix/improve it ! Amazing research done here, i hope the devs watch and consider your suggestions. You cleary love the game and want the game to last for years to come ! Cheers! Great video !
as someone who is literally brand new to this game (4 unsuccessful raids) im sure glad i found this channel, very informative clear and precise. im here for the ride! wake up Ironmace!
I had a few of the same arguments but it's usually met with "skill issue" in that toxic discord. I absolutely loved this video, thank you for making it.
Although I am fan of the idea of multiclassing, I do agree with you 100%. The game is not ready for it and many other things they have tested. The core gameplay loop is not hardened enough to be adding such systems. They have great project with a lot of potential, but they should right now stick with what they have and make sure the quality of the base game is in good shape, before moving to big game changing systems. I hope devs will see this and re-evaluate their approach.
Good video! I like the suggestions. One big problem with the home phase as you named it, is they seem to really dislike quality of life features, its almost like they take pride in things being obtuse or taking more steps to accomplish which also leads that phase into taking longer. I think they relaly need to flesh out this part to be more quick and intuitive without punishing players for it aside the points you made
GREAT video! EXTREMELY well made, researched, and POINT BLANK STRAIGHT FORWARD HONEST. I was a HARDCORE DaD player since playtest 3. when EA came out i bought it SECOND 1 and was paying EVERDAY like 8-10 hours PER DAY. The whiplash of going back and forth on changes, the horrible balancing, and the LACK OF CONTENT added is what drove me to quit around December 2023. Multiclassing being added has only reinforced my drive to NOT return i HATE the lack of class identity. Then i saw they added +2 All attributed back and on more pieces like WHAT R U THINKNING IRON MACE?!?! In all my play time since playtest 3 i have been a 90% duo's player 5% solo and 5% trio. With duos being FORCED to play on the ice map (which IMO is the worst map) just ruins duo's for me. Before i quit in December (so during like November) My teammate and I did all quests except for killing the bosses 10 times because we r duos. Then they added map rotations which i thought was going to be awesome, but the duo version of the bosses were still the trio bosses and i feel they should be balanced for duo(whatever party size is on the map so like 205 health reduction and if needed mechanic rework, tho i dont think any CURRENT bosses need that as their mechanics all work). Another reason i quit as stated already was the WHIPLASH from FLIP FLOPPING on balance changes. 1 second they want longer fights then the next day they add +3 all on every piece of armor. Then they say +3 all is bad for the game but in 2 weeks they add +3 all back again. this has ruined my trust on their vision(they say they want X but do Y) and also proven to me IM just doesnt know how to balance/is not good at balancing. Another thing that drove me to quit was Barbarian/Throwing axes/Ranged meta(bows and throwables/NOT MAGIC) - Throwing axe being able to SLOW me (without Achilles strike) AND allow the barb to run faster is just simply NOT FUN. THEN ADD ACHILLIES STRIKE ON TOP OF THAT. it ruined the game. and the fact that from late October/early November to NOW APRIL 27th THIS IS STILL AN ISSUE AND STILL HAPPENING is just simple put A JOKE. secondly mentioned was ranged meta, how long does ranged meta need to be a thing until they realize its horrible??!?!? holding doorways for 5 minutes as a standoff cuz of ranged meta is NOT FUN. Why does a ranger do MORE DAMAGE than a wizard when the ranger gets to shoot IMMEDITELY vs a Wizard having to CHARGE UP his spell? I am one of the FEW ppl who dont think Cleric/Wizard is an issue. These are just a few of the reasons that drove me away from the game and have KEPT ME AWAY from the game PREVENTING ME FROM COMING BACk. one thing i lastly want to touch on is CONTENT ADDITIONS.... in NOVEMEBER IM said Druid and ice was coming next month(dec) and thn it got pushed back, then it got pushed back AGAIN, then AGAIN... DRUID IS STILL NOT OUT BUT THEY ADDED MULTICLASSING?!?!?! like wtf?!?! ADD CONTENT TO THE GAME STON FLIP FLOPPING BALANCE CHANGES WASTING MONTHS AND MOTNHS ON REPEATED MSITAKES!!!! And DONT GET ME STARTED ON HOW HORRIBLE THEM MAKING ARENA MODE IS. THAT WILL KILL THE GAME MARK MY WORDS. Dark and Darker and Dark and Darker arena WILL NOT COEXIST mark my words. One will kill the other.
I think a lot of the veteran players feel this way. We have love and passion for this game, but we have been confused and frustrated repeatedly by some decisions from IM.
This is an amazing video. It covers almost everything that is an issue and gives some really good points. I think if they take even a few of these ideas into the game it will be way better. One thing I can say is when it comes to the nerfing of gear and random modifiers(which I think is a good idea) they need to balance classes around the new lower gear. For example them nerfing rogue base stats to horrid levels instead of reworking invis. If a new system of gear it would be way way harder to get that strength and vigor out of the negatives from 6 vigor 9 strength to 15 and 15. Along with this classes like wizard really aren't great at low tier levels, but are extremely strong with high gear. However nerfing the high gear would make the class extremely painful to play. You can say the same with so many other characters. I can say a similar thing with fixing the ranged meta, while I think the ranged meta is bad you can't just make ranged way worse without killing multiple classes(mostly ranger). Then lastly when it comes to there "collecting data" they need to do that with changes on the test server. And to make the data collection better they need to make the test server a better test environment with stuff like max level characters, full completely quests, and possibly boosted gold rates/free gold.
beautiful. Been playing since the very first play test. For someone who plays high level and for fun you hit almost all the fundamentals that need to be worked on. Last few weeks I have found myself saying "this gameplay loop is ass". From my perspective it looks like they are REALLY trying to iron out the game for actual release(EX asking for help in all language translation and super unnecessary rush of multi classing) They need more money/project management/resources. I love this game and I think IM public image could be improved ten fold if they stopped over promising and underdelivering. It's in IM hands now.
This is 100% what's needed. I have stopped playing since multiclassing. My friends tried this game, but stopped playing after an hour because they couldn't be arsed to deal with the fast pvp encounters. I have talked to my friends who still play, but stopped like me when multiclassing came about what would do it to make it a better game. Your video hit the nail 100% - I am just afraid that they listen to the discord playerbase. It feels like most of them want multiclassing. And how does this get to Ironmace? Well hopium!
I have a topic that might add to the discussion. Dark and Darker has a ton of different tags. It brings in players from an enormous number of genres. It's First Person. It has (kinda) intricate melee combat. It's an extraction game. It has a BR zone mechanic (sometimes). It has Classes with different builds and abilities. It has Quests. It has a High Fantasy setting. It has Group play and Teamfights. It has Solo play. It has an Economy. It has complex gearing. Gear is found and randomly generated. It has Hardcore aspects (in that you usually lose your gear permanently when you die). From all this, you bring in FPS players, ARPG players, Pure RPG players, MMO players, BR players, Survival game players, maybe MOBA players, maybe Fighting Game players, etc. Hell, you even have some actual Dungeons and Dragons players. That all sounds great at a glance, right? More players = good, after all. The problem is, all these different groups of players want something different from the game. Players coming from a heavy PVP background want skill expression. They want an even playing field where skill matters more than gear. They want packed lobbies where they're going to run into other players/squads frequently. Players coming from an RPG/ARPG/MMO background, however, want to be rewarded for their time. They want to grind, and they often don't want to be interrupted while they do so. They'd be fine if they went the entire round without ever seeing another player. They also want to feel powerful at the end of their grind, so that if they DO happen to see another player down the line, they'll be capable of defending themselves, and the gear they worked so hard to get. To further convolute it, some players in BOTH of the categories above have friends to play the game with, and some don't. So here you have this huge rift in the community of this game. It's very apparent if you spend any amount of time on either the subreddit, or the Discord (I wouldn't recommend doing either...). Literally no change that IM makes will go without criticism, because there's no way to please both camps with the player count that we currently have. If we had Fortnite or CoD numbers, then sure, we could sustain enough modes to accommodate everyone, but currently, it's just not feasible. To make things worse, the split seems to go fairly cleanly along a certain Social Media line. Most Twitch Streamers and other Content Creators tend to be largely in the PVP camp, whereas most Redditors seem to be more in the RPG/Grinder camp. So when a Dev goes to a Twitch Stream or does an interview with a youtuber, or guest stars on one of the podcasts, they get one set of feedback, but if they browse the Subreddit, they get a completely different set of feedback (I'm not really sure which side the Discord would fall on. I don't have the mental fortitude to endure it long enough to see). I feel like, before we can even talk about focusing on the Core Game Loop, IM has to decide which camp they want to DEFINE the Core Game Loop. Maybe someone smarter than me has an idea of how to reconcile these 2 types of players, but I'm having trouble seeing a way to please both of them. Perhaps there could be something besides gear for the grinders to grind for? Something that doesn't contribute to PVP gear disparity. I think I've heard a couple Content Creators (Soma was 1, I think) recommend PVE only enhancements. That might be a good place to start.
First, thank you for the long thoughtful reply. I can tell you care about this game. I think there is a way in which we can please most of these types of players (but of course not all). We can have the sweaty hardcore pvp, but also have progression and grinding mean something without it becoming too powerful. If the playerbase expands enough, then I could see other limited game modes solving some problems too.
I agree with most, I think the suggestions in the video mean goin down the br/pvp/extraction path. And tbh, I dont see another way, at its core this game is Tarkov but with fantasy style combat and BR elements. The Diablo players and DnD players are here, but at its core this is not the game for them, unless they are open to BR/pvpsweat aswell. This is a important aspect of why IM is going back and forth so much, the RPG people cant get a good WoW or Diablo game in DaD but we can make this a unique extraction/br/melee game. In other words, the combat has more to offer and can hang with pvpshooter titles, the lootsystems and skillstree/spell systems are very shallow compared to PoE or others.
I agree to all points and i think that not only unique items should have special effects, small effects would make the game way more fun. For an example there could be a smithing system that can be leveled (Home Phase Quality) that makes it possible to make wolf claw gloves (doesnt require gold to craft only materials) that apply 1 bleed dot damage every time you hit a limb (minor buff as u want to hit the head). But at the same time if you mess up the smithing minigame the item breaks into components (gold sink).
Congrats man! You've earned yourself one more subscriber! Keep up the professional work! Ironmace could really use people like you to make Dark and Darker even greater.
I used to love playing Dark and Darker. The original playtests were some of the best gaming experiences of my life. The time to kill and lack of skill expression led me to leave quite a while ago, but I am really hopeful that it will eventually become a great game. I really like most of the ideas you have presented here.
if the devs arent listening they need to. your advice is spot on and honestly they need to listen to people like you if they want this game to grow. awesome video. you earned my sub.
Loved the video and the breakdown of everything I had an interesting idea when it comes to add damage modifiers. Removing add damage modifiers is definitely needed but I think a great replacement is putting in more armor and magic penetration. This would still allow people to counter build against tanks (high amor or magic resist builds) but it wouldn’t have any effect on time to kill for those that don’t build armor and magic resist. Allows for build flexibility still but removes add damage stacking as a must across the board to be competitive
This mann just gave a concise corporate n professional solution to a very serious problem facing this company.... And he did it for free. What an angel.
Hey I love the video and expresses my disappointment with the last season aswell. I think being able to voice your frustration while being able to give constructive feedback is difficult and you defitnetly nailed it!
excellent video, it's impressive how majority of gamer are agree with your idea, lot of idea i had the same with my friend about the state of the game but the devs are not aware of i hope they will implement contents on your way it will be a good game!! keep going
I was a newb player before I quit. I only survived goblin caves maybe 2 or 3 times out of dozens of runs; solely by clearing a pve room that I knew well, and hid by the nearby escape stairs. EVERY time I can across another player, I would die. Being up against veteran players or anyone with experience is unbelievably off-putting and not knowing what the hell to do in PvP. My last experience before I quit the game: I spawned no where near my favourite hide and escape spot, well, that's okay, I'll just slowly clear my way through the outside rooms towards it. So I'm clearing, taking my time, resting to heal from the damage I take from goblins and I find my first legendary pair of gloves. "Oh those are nice! I can't wait until I eventually hit level 15 and can play with the auction house system". I find a room which has dead goblins on the floor. Uh oh. We're a good few minutes in here so hopefully this person has left. I find a chest. I open the chest, nice loot! *Stab stab stab*. I'm dead. I didn't even hear this fucker sneak up to me, that or he was stealth next to the chest. "I'm done" I said out loud and turned the game off. I would like to come back, but the newb experience has to improve, I get the hardcore nature of the game is a draw for some. But I would argue that for a majority, the time it would take to grind dungeon runs to even get close to being competent to actually survive a run, is currently too demanding. Perhaps a starting load out arena may help with this curve? If I could just jump in, smash with other players until I figure the PvP mechanics out, then dungeon runs might not be so daunting? Idk Maybe I'll come back when druid comes out and run around as a rat.
A couple of points here: First, the introduction phase for new players is pretty unforgiving in DaD, and that can create a negative loop that feeds itself, specially for PvP encounters - you die when you try to fight other players because you don't know what you're doing, which makes you start avoiding other players to try and escape, which in turn keeps you clueless and afraid and more likely to die to other players. The only remedy to this is to start caring less about escaping and more about playing and learning the game, even if it means dying over and over, to the point you at least win 1/10 fights. From then you can work on winning 2/10, then 3/10 and so on. That leads to a second point, which is I get some people just don't have that kind of time, patience or nerve. It's a game that at least tries to be a hardcore, unpredictable player-driven experience and markets itself to a niche audience that likes that kind of environment. If you find yourself frustrated by the game instead of enjoying the process, it may be better to just spend your time elsewhere.
@@zedre7633well said. It's fair enough if that is the goal for the game, if the developer wants hardcore that only encourages hardcore players, then power to you. Just don't expect such a model to sustain a high player count. How many players is Ironmace losing to the new player negative gameplay loop? Could a compromise be found to save players that want to get into the game, but can't invest the current time requirement as is?
100% agree. I really love this game so I have a lot of patience for it and it’s devs, but I do feel like they need to start being a little more strategic since the bigger this game gets the more structure is needed.
I like what you did and I can tell you thought about this in detail. As I mentioned on my other posts. I don't like the idea of completely removing multiclassing, but there has to be pros and cons. I'm ok with them putting it on hold for now, to concentrate on other stuff. But, I do like the idea of my warrior being able to specialize in any weapon type, or a ranger getting hide. Or a rogue, getting some low level magic from wizard. Each character should be unique, I'm good with the shared stash. But, for the love of all that is holy, keep the quests per character. Each character and stats and quests should be unique. I don't want it to be profile based, but character based. I love this game a ton. I'm 50 years old and my wife is 52, we've played since the second steam test. This is all we like to play these days. I also think that it is ok to have a market. The idea of not reselling items isn't a bad one. So, I should be able to sell any goods found in a dungeon, or any item that I create. If I bought something off of the marketplace and go back into the dungeon with that item, I should be able to sell it again. I usually play the solo or duo queue. When we do trio queue, it is just the two of us. I don't want an arena now, I think it will split the player base even more. I would be ok with a hideout, or house, castle etc... where you can invite people to your home and you can practice duel or hit dummies for damage tests and the like though. I don't like the idea of buying skins, I think the items in the game should make your character look unique. I would prefer they sell new classes. If they have to sell skins for items, it should still be identified as the item it is, so I know its a warhammer and not a sword. I agree with the gameplay loop. Focus on the dungeon crawl. I loved when it went Ruins, to Castle, to Hell. I like that idea. New levels, new classes, new skills for classes. If they player base gets larger, the gear issues aren't as big of a deal because you will have a ton more players to pull from to fill those high roller lobbies. Though, I do think a shrinking of that range does make sense. Again the TTD does need to be longer. I like the idea of gear based matchmaking, or rank based matchmaking. My wife and I play all the time, but we are not elite and getting stomped by guys like you is something we can deal with, but in general we are middle of the pack players and do enjoy it more when we play against such people. Thanks for doing this and take care.
I truly think an arena mode could be insanely good for the game. Imagine you dungeon dive to get the loot, then on the surface you fight for full loot in 1v1-3v3s in a gladiator-like setting. would give purpose to the current gameplay, and allow those who strictly enjoy it to continue that, while giving PvP heads like me our place as well. I feel this idea enriches the current gameplay while adding onto it as well. also opens the overworld/player housing ideas + allowing people to improve pvp skills reliably
Agreed! In particular I don't like the multiclassing system. No skill tree is even needed for existing class specialization. Literally just have the first perk slot upgrade at level 30. Whatever perk you slot here is a "mastery" variant with stronger, more build defining effects. This, combined with reworking/rebalancing the existing perks to be more interesting would be a much better use of development time.
I really hope changes like this are attempted in the test servers, I've been hitting similar discussions about the random modifier removals and how that would likely be a healthy change for the game and for balancing purposes on IM's side for simplifying the design and data collection accuracy, that and I look forward to the multiclass limitations they mentioned implementing in next patch, and would like to see how they approach that aswell.
After watching the Gray Zone Warfare playtest, I think having one giant persistent map with the option to go deeper would be the best way to experience Dark and Darker. Bosses and loot can be put on a respawn timer and the matchmaking problems would be solved instantly because everyone is on the same map. You could also acquire "Town Portal" scrolls, like in Diablo 2, to go back to the tavern/hideout and place your gear back in your stash. I think this would solve a lot of the extract portal issues as well. I know this is an impossible scenario given all the time IM has put into developing DaD, but I'm beginning to get burned out with the constant testing of gear, maps, and now multiclassing. The game feels more like a science experiment, than something I can play and have fun with. Hopefully IM can listen to your feedback and apply them in future patches because these are all amazing bits of advise. Otherwise, I don't know how much longer I will be interested in playing this game.
I never comment about a video twice unless I’m responding to someone but I’d have to safe that this video was phenomenal. I agreed with most if not all your statements and really hope that the devs/sdf take some of these ideas into consideration.
Fixing the core game play loop could probably be done in the week if they tried and make the game a far better experience. I agree with all points you made about gbmm, multiclass, gear disparity etc
I think getting a translator for this video would do some good and hopefully help you be heard and get the attention that’s deserved. Made all great and valid points and I couldn’t agree more.
As a veteran of Rust, Morhau, Chiv 2 and now also DaD (with 1.7k hours), I agree with absolutely all of your points. I don't think there's anyone who offered such detailed and well thought critique of the game. Many of these points I discussed with friends or randoms I played with this past year. Some of the points that stood out to me are: Random modifiers: since playtests I always thought it was a bad idea to have green items be completely superior to blues just because of random stats. "Reading" random stats on items is one the weirdest skills to develop for new players and it's intimidating for them to understand how damage works and how the random modifiers influence your stats. But it's a must if you want to be better, because you need it to gear up and to properly value whatever you find in dungeon. Ranged meta: this wipe I mained ranger and I do think ranged damage is too strong, though ranger does not seem strong in multiclass "era". I think I could still perform decently with -25% damage as you said, since I had no problem fighting duos in ice caves as a solo unless at least one of them was good with ranged damage. But what about new player ranger experience? Only ranger with spear perk is decent at clearing mobs, which is the first thing any new player needs to learn to kick off the game loop. I would imagine that fixing gear disparity would solve the problem for high end of HR. But new players should be the main focus, which leads me to... New player experience. The game is at a point where I don't feel like convincing more of my friends to try the game. I feel like all the big changes that happened recently are mostly targeting veterans of the game (like me), who are comfortable with playing HR, who are ok with grinding multiple characters to try out the multiclasses. Squire was one of the best changes that happened the past few months. I would be happier to see more changes that are felt more in normals or welcome new players, content that they can access without having to grind. Lastly, you are right about players losing trust, because I feel it too and I hate to say it. I love Ironmace for having the balls to take on such a huge project with the threat of impending doom (the lawsuit) hanging above their heads. DaD is probably my favorite game of all time, and as a software dev myself I understand there is so much complexity to a game like this. But them not staying true to what they say time and time again is not good for anyone, and they definitely need to rethink how they communicate things like that. I'm looking at their deadlines as maybe foolishly hopeful, and I hope they take them more seriously, because I would love to see this game go big.
Honestly i think changes to TTK should be prioritized pretty heavily, it also ties back into the gear gap so theyll have to balance both at the same time. Great video, alot of great ideas and obviously you put a good amount of effort into thinking and making this video, good work.
A lot of great takes here. The only place i would disagree is about random modifiers. Loot being exciting is really important to me, and I think the fact that a blue can be better than a legendary keeps people looting chests, killing wraiths, etc. it can also help noobs snag that lucky pull that pays for a weeks worth of kits. If the best stuff is locked behind HR bossing, a lot of players will never loot any of it themselves. Though I suppose creating more incentive to push for the boss every run might be good too? Not sure. I would be more ok with it if there were more POI’s that dropped sick loot outside of the boss
Everything is said right to the point! Especially about multiclass. I came to play an authentic dark fantasy, and I get rogues with crossbows, mages with warlock/cleric spells and vice versa, and so on. Why do you need a fighter if the barbarian has a better base and take all the perks from the fighter to him? Author, if you see this comment, please tell me if there is a chance to convey the message of your video to the developers? Or perhaps someone has already started distributing it on the discord server?
Thank you for this video, I was trying to release one myself but I honestly felt like I couldn't put EVERYTHING in the video, Theres so much to talk about and advice to be given to IM, But you hit everything spot on :) -Sleepy
Thank you. It certainly was a struggle at times to put all the information I wanted into a digestible and informative video. It could be better, but I'm happy with it.
100% correct and very easy to understand I don’t think anyone can disagree with the major points of imporveing the core game loop - also I 100% agree that they are spending their time on a lot of stuff that brings no value - how do we make sure iron mace gets to see this?
100% agree and where did Ruins go?....people might not of liked the multiple dungeons down but the map alone back in the day was fun af. It sure would be a nice map for solos, or duos to have as another option to gather some quick gold or experience something less stale with a more lively map and interesting mobs.
10:00 i think spud put it well too. increasing non pvp stats like undead weapon damage or undead/demon damage reduction for increasing static rolls to rarity of gear. also, stuff like increasing loot found based luck and maybe a new 'quest item' based type of luck.
Loved this video! I wholeheartedly agree that the gear disparity is currently the biggest issue this game faces, and is by far the biggest reason the game struggles so much to bring in new players or keep people playing high-roller. I also like your idea regarding preventing flipping/market manipulation but wanted to mention (emphasize) that still letting players sell gear that has been brought into raid would be extremely important. Tarkov stopped letting players flea-market gear earned from PvP and it really hurt the reward aspect of PvP. In Dark and Darker this would be even more important due to the nature of the games loot. One point I find important that I didn’t hear much about in this video is that I think the game should try to avoid becoming any more ‘hard-core’ than it’s already been. For this reason I think the recent removal of name tags in high-roller only hurts the game. Multi-classing is also a giant problem in this regard but isn’t as binary. I don’t know what the best path forward is for multi-classing. I have a lot of fun with multi-classing, but also find it extremely frustrating. I think removing it altogether is *probably* the best choice, but the topic is complicated and I’ll have fun playing DaD either-way. I think the biggest reason to remove it though is simply to allow the devs to focus their efforts on balancing the rest of the game. Most of the perks/skills and items in the game (especially in the Weapons, Chest, Pants, and Helmet slots) are considered off-meta trash right now and are consistently relatively worthless, so theres no shortage of balancing work to be done outside of multi-classing. The only minor disagreement I have is your idea to nerf ranged classes as hard as you mention (30% dmg reduction.) I do agree the ranged meta is currently a bit of a problem but I’m fairly certain such a large nerf would be overkill. Thats pretty much all, thanks for reading. Hope the devs see this video and take your points seriously!
very well made vid with interesting points. the only gripe i have is the the gear changes on some parts. I don’t think making the AR and base stat on it different but the random modifiers need a huge change. uniques that are cheaper than blue gear is abysmal. everyone hates range meta but if we remove 25% range dmg, i believe rangers suffer the most. wizards like apollo can’t frontline which is good bc wizards should be behind frontline spamming spells. Rangers are cringe but then it feels like they are just throwing frany axes as arrows. love your ideas and NEW experiments are needed so i think it’s fine they tested multiclassing and gbmm but now take it out
The focusing on core gameplay loop, stop repeating old mistakes and remove multiclassing are your strongest points in my opinion, can't say I agree with all your balance ideas though.
If Ironmace just implemented every change you mentioned in this video for a single week on the test server, just to see how the community responds, I can guarantee you the test server would have higher pop than the normal servers by the end of that week. I agree with every single point you made, and have had the same thoughts on several occasions throughout the wipe. Everything from the removal of random rolls to the lengthening of TTK. Here’s to hoping the devs are humble enough to give all this a try. Well done sir.
Brother I'm 1 Minute 36 Seconds into the video and I can already tell this is a fantastic guide for the devs to save this game. I hope they see this and take some notes. Love you NotLikeThis
It's like you've been listening to my friends and I ranting in Discord about the problems every time a new patch comes out lol. I would have loved (and still would be thrilled) to see the Diablo inspired socket system for gear that the devs mentioned back in the day instead of random modifiers. Gear disparity is the biggest problem in this game in my opinion, and like you mentioned it makes no sense for a blue with the "right" rolls to be better than it's unique counterpart with bad ones.
im glad you made this video i highly respect it. these are defenitly core issue that need to be addresed with the devs and i hope this reaches them. Great video 10/10
One huge change to the game would be to more closely balance all the characters base stats, then you can more easily balance gear to match each character and their abilities, much easier to go off averages and data if at least one element of the game is balanced, if each character has a maximum of 5 stat difference it's enough but it's not the case right now
