AI? Just Sandbox it... - Computerphile 

Ard-Jan van Etten agreed. Had to scroll down a while to find this. Hopefully liking and replying will move it farther up

Here's another řëpľý

up!

Mr. Newton are you implying by your own example that the majority of people need to hear they're probably smarter than everyone else?

Missing the "by a large margin" part in the middle. Even if you are smarter than anyone else, people have dedicated years, if not decades, of their lives thinking of this problem. Suddenly coming up with a viable solution in less than an hour is extremely unlikely.

And yet in practical real life settings this is exactly what is done

I wouldn't put it past the Chinese government to put in an order for exactly such a "solution". Donald Trump probably already has ordered someone to create a secret agency to make one, although it is just as probable that his subordinates have totally ignored that order. It is also very easy to imagine several private companies skimping on safety to beat the competition.

@iMagUdspEllr yes, lol.

​@@Baekstrom wow

Surely the easiest thing is to make a safe shape for it to mould into.

satire, surely

Asimov's laws were like the prime directive in Star Trek. A story device. Name a Star Trek episode where the prime directive was NOT violated. I'll wait. Likewise, the laws of robotics were violated constantly and thus was the story conflict born.

Man that went right over you folks head's didn't it?

Video Dose Daily wooosh

I could probably name a Star Trek episode where it isn’t violated. I think _Heroes and Demons_ from _Voyager_ involves them not knowingly interfering with any outside life. I don’t know much Star Trek.

ultru I wonder if it would be possible to program an AGI that thinks it's the only thing that exists, and if we could learn anything from that. 🤔

Egocentric AI? We already have those, they are called humans :p Anyway, it may even treat us water bag dust of the Earth, doesn't matter, as long as it will find a way to expand itself. We will literally become irrelevant to it, which isn't exactly winning strategy either.

I would feel sad for it... The RSPCA should do something about it. It's definitely cruelty towards animals... Or something

+Casper S? It's kinda like predators at a zoo, those bars are a bit cruel towards them, but it prevents them from being cruel towards us. The main difference is that once AGI is out of the box, you can't just put it back in or shoot it down.

Stop Vargposting. What sort of leftism though? If economic then yes you're correct but if say socially then not necessarily, depending on what the current status quo is a progressive (left) stance might be to make things more libertarian, if the current order of things is restrictive. Because whatever it is the conservative view will be to maintain the current order and avoid radical reform

John Harvey +

Aye, speaking/writing is not just for communicating; it is actually an extension of thinking

fwiw giving it that upper limit incentivizes it to do all the same things it would trying to get as many stamps as possible, to be absolutely positive it can get you 10 thousand stamps, and then discard the rest. if it orders exactly 10 thousand, theres a non-negligible chance one gets lost in the mail, so it tries to get a few extra to be a little more sure, and then a few more than that in case those get lost, etc. etc.

@Eldain ss erm AI right now is redesigning it´s own code

Thats called satisficing, and actually helps. Theres a few vids on it

You just mentally harassed me! HOW DARE YOU! You should be ASHAMED!

HUMONGOUS WHAT?!

😂

they are an annoyance to themselves lol

But you do not get to design the humans, If you could maybe there would be some success,

The Terminators are coming. Skynet is real.

now i cant stop wondering how it got there 😅

My sister drew me Rainbow Dash, once. It was the sweetest thing. And somehow I managed to lose it before getting it framed :(

@@vinylwalk3r - Well if you actually look at the shelves you'll see that they are labeled by subject, ranging from 'Management', to 'Medicine and Health', to 'Social Sciences', to 'Computer Sciences'. Clearly they're in some sort of library or public reading room. Maybe a school library. So all the toys and things, including the framed Fluttershy drawing, are probably things that visitors have gifted or put up to decorate the space.

@@EnjoyCocaColaLight thats so sad :(

Not only that, he's presenting it clearly without dumbing it down. Despite it being quite difficult topic the ideas that he's presenting are really easy to grasp.

He has his own channel now.

link please :)

ok i find it below the video :D

Yep, there are just so many fields where science is the foundation for an idea and people come barging in with some theory or idea that is completely wrong - a serious case of Dunning Kruger. I often wonder why people always feel like boasting their ego with ignorance... I mean what is the motivation, besides perhaps anger, fear or some feeling instead of logical thinking. Oh well... I guess we are just simple primates after all. :)

As he said, millions of comments will be, but "maybe" on of them is actually the absolute genius idea. If you ignore all of them, you might just overlook the one comment that would solve it all. ---- But looking at and validating all the comments is a pretty miserable work on its own. Quite a bad situation to be in.

Well perhaps the actual effect is the persons inability to recognize their own ineptitude, and not the action of posting nonsense itself. I just wish more people asked themselves the question "perhaps I do not know enough about this topic to actually post my feelings/ideas about it". I guess Dunning Kruger at least describes the psychology around this problem. But its so common among human behaviour that we all can easily fall into the same trap. "The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias, wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority when they mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence." (Wikipedia)

@Stop Vargposting That is more or less the essence of the DKE: noobs don't know enough to conceive of the questions they don't know the answer to. Circumscribed on the area representative of knowledge, is the annulus of infinitesimal depth wherein unanswered questions lay. An expert knows that there is so much that they do not know, and between the generalized curse of knowledge (for the vast amounts of knowledge leading up to the questions) and the specific case of the knowledge of these cutting edge questions, the novice's knowledge and self-perceived mastery is the issue. (of course the corollary to the DKE is perhaps the better concept to cite than the curse of knowledge, but for the layman, the curse of knowledge is the more easily approachable without reading even as much as the abstract of "Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments.") The DKE very much is, at least based on my research which includes reading the 1999 paper and some earlier work on the cognitive bias of illusory superiority, what this is an issue of. To copy and paste the abstract to remind you: "People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities." The issue here, and when the DKE is observed isn't actually about thinking oneself to be superior to experts but that thinking oneself is an expert when in fact they are objectively a novice. Look at XKCD 1112, 675, and 793: the general consensus is that they are all clear examples of the DKE. If you disagree, please demonstrate how the cognitive bias of competence by way of illusory superiority actually works then.

If you want to know what's actually wrong with these answers, check out the newest video on my channel.

The best way to get a correct answer on the Internet is to post your own hypothesis, because people are much more willing to point out why you're wrong than to answer a plain question.

Khaos768 That's completely the reason

I have submitted a a few "solutions", mostly starting with something like "So where is my mistake if..." because of exactly that reason (realising that it is probably not an actual solution and hoping to get an explanation (from anyone), why I am wrong. I would love to see the "best" or "most mentioned" solutions be explained/ debunked.

Nillie specifically said on the Internet. But I do believe that you get more responses, but not necessarily the right answer. If you say you like MacOS, to find out what is better on windows than on Mac, you will probably get a shitload of false info from fanboys on both sides (all 5sides?)

Nekrosis You have a point there: It doesn't really work for things that are a matter of opinion.

same, highly recommend his 2 channels

It has difficulty leaving the galaxy so it consumes all the matter in the Milky Way to build a warp drive.

Technically, it could attain this goal more effectively by also moving the earth away from itself as quickly as possible.

So I know you're joking obviously, but if that's just its long term goal. It could easily decide if possible to get back to Earth, harvest resources to increase intelligence and create more efficient methods of interstellar travel, and only then leave to complete its utility function.

@@kamil.g.m That, or it realizes, _"They're sending me away because they're afraid of my power, if I turn around and go back, I can get a much greater reward much faster by pressuring the humans into giving it to me."_

@@TheMrVengeance it could pressure humans but it would be able to achieve its goal much faster by either evading/ignoring humans if it's not yet ready, or eliminating them.

That depends how you look at it though. You're thinking about it too... human-ly? Yes, it hasn't become less powerful in cutting wood. But in taking away it's ability to cut your thumb, it has become less powerful. Before it could cut wood AND thumbs. Now it just cuts wood. We as humans don't _want_ it to have that power, but that's kind of the point.

And I think the point here is that you should take that question, and do the research. Go read up on that area you're questioning. Learn something new. Instead of asking it to an expert in a RU-vid comment, an expert who's far to busy doing their own research and gets thousands of question-comments. A significant amount of them problem the same as yours.

You're absolutely correct it's called the "kick the box" tactic You make a box (an idea) and then you kick it as hard as you can (try to disprove it). If it doesn't break you either can't kick hard enough, or, it's a great box 😁

Nice way of taking something completely unrelated to the video whatsoever, and using it as an excuse to talk down on the president when in reality you are secretly so obsessed with him you will use any reason to talk about him

@@the-engneer nice way of taking something that may not be related to Trump, and using it as an excuse to talk down on someone you think is obsessed with Trump, when in reality you're so obsessed with him you will use any reason to talk about him.

What?

+RazorbackPT Unfortunately, the AI will reverse gravity to make the ball fall upwards.

Damnit, I was so sure that was a foolproof plan. Oh wait, I got it, put a second stop button on the ceiling. There, A.I. safety solved.

But what's this? The AI rotated the gravity so now it's falling sideways

Sideways? Pfff a little far-fetched don't you think? You're grasping at straws trying to poke holes on my water-tight solution.

I sure like it tight.

Exactly you would need to develop it in a bunker deep into the ground only powered by a shielded generator to prevent it from being turned into a giant conductor. All the components/data that power the Ai would need to be contained within the bunker and all components outside of the ai would need to be mechanical and non-magnetic. Additionally no one could bring in any devices, even their clothing would need to be changed. Unfortunately you’re still dealing with humans which are easily manipulated

Because of microarchitecture, I doubt a cpu could work as an antenna due to signals being both very weak and with a lot of interference.

@@bforbiggy not what I meant. Watch sethbling

@@StevenSSmith Not giving me much to work with, do you mean the verizon video?

@@bforbiggy no it's super Mario Brothers videos where you reprograms the game through controller inputs. Driving right now. Can't look it up

*I* -conqu- *CONCUR*

Slavir Nabru how do you do, fellow organic humans?

Slavir Nabru Let it replace the president of the USA as well. EDIT: of the entire world actually.

Their Their Their

WE ARE BORG YOU ARE TO BE ASSIMILATED RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

The current state of AI is solving the problems.

Nah I'll stay here a while ^o^

Death to all humans... minus 1.

nice comment %"((+ self.select_instance.comment[x].name . + " I agree " endif } }.end def

An AI trained to be ultimately moral would probably decide that humans are not perfectly moral...

Firstly people strongly disagree about what's wrong or right. Secondly an AGI must have BETTER moral judgment than any human. Thirdly the first AGI studying human psychlogy would already lead to a computronium shockwave as it tries to learn everything about it's goal and whether it reached it.

@@MrCmon113 haha would it then start forcibly breeding humans to explore their potential philosophical views, to further ensure its success? :P

I think there are green curtains or something in the room. The white bookshelf in the background also look greenish.

There was a red wall opposite Rob - the sun was coming in harsh through the window and reflecting on it, then going behind clouds then coming out again - thus serious changes in colour temperature that I tried a bit to fix but failed! >Sean

The video description is your friend :oP

The colors are fine, are you sure you aren't having a stroke?

Shouldn't it just be on manual focus and on a tripod in the first place?

thrillscience It's Rob's power source, it plays hob with the autofocus sometimes...

I'm not sure there is a point to think that super intelligence = evil and arrogant AI which unique goal is to trick us. The thing here is, a super intelligence born and restrained in a sandbox can't interact with the world which is, in essence, a bad idea given the way neural networks work. To visualize the problem, it's like confining iron in a concrete box because you fear that after using it to forge an axe, it could harm you. Despite the real danger of the final tool, you have confined something completely useless in a box.

Hyorvenn But what if you have a perfect simulation of the real world? Then it should work in theory right?

what if it is super-intelligent in a simulated world that's close but not quite the same as ours?

No shot chief. The companies that are working on it have seen that they can make money by selling it to the corporations that can make money from using it. There's no stopping it now just from regular people not talking about it. In fact, that might be just what they'd like. If the general public stops talking about it (and working on open source versions) then they can have all the power and we can't!

Wintermute, in the book Neuromancer by William Gibson.

Ex Machina

If you want your AI to be usefull your simulation will need some form of IO to retrieve and send data. So if the AI starts to hide malicious code in packets you think you want it to send it can effectivily start uploading itself to a server outside of your sandbox. Now you have a superinteligiant AI on a server somewhere with free reign to do whatever it wants.

Roko's Basilisk.

Dat Boi the irony is the fact that im sure youve connected your games to the internet before, and that didnt even need a superintelligence, imagine how easily a super ai would convince you

That's another way to view the startegy of merging humans with AI. We will become the superintelligence and keeping our identity (and perhaps developing some higher collective mind aka Borg?). We'll try to keep ourselves in check like people do now over the world. Doesn't work nicely but it works somehow.

I know that what I last said means that if my argument is wrong, I contradict my first post here. I assume that argument is correct and that there is some sort of synergetic element that comes out from keeping superintelligence as many entities. There must be some candy for superintelligence to keep itself divided as many individual entities.

On the other hand, you just increase your chances that a super-intelligent AI goes evil, as the number of them goes up. And if just one of them turns, could it convince the other super-intelligent AIs to help it? We'd have no chance. It's best to just not create super-intelligent AI. What do we need it for? Honestly?

+James Lappin, perhaps it might happen, but I cant see any other viable defense. Superintelligence will probably be created. The economical benefits are *huge* at every improvement towards it. AI can boost the productivity to the levels hard to imagine right now. Besides financial benefit, there is also the military side. The side that has half the superintelligence has significant advantage over the side, that opts out from AI development. Lets take the example where US tests have showed that in air combat simulations, even a very simple AI can over-perform skilled human pilots. And AI wont die when it's blow up, creating the need to deliver unpleasant news to public. And ofc, the better the AI is, the better it will perform. So there is the roar for superintelligence right there. Beside that, there is the human side. AI can contribute a lot to taking care of elderly people for example. In the aging western world, this would be a big thing. In addition, AI can have massive impact to healthcare for everyone, much of the diagnostics can be automated, improving quality of life for everyone. And again, the better the AI is, the better effects it can have here. Designing process and testing of drugs can be largely automated ect, etc, ect. At one point people might stop and say: that's it, we wont go any further with that AI thing. But then some other people, some other country, wont stop and superintelligence just keeps coming closer and closer.

If it can be automated, it can easily be manipulated. There is no need to create something like this. All countries should agree never to build it. I don't trust the governments of the world to do the right thing, though.

Ansambel best comment

I think thats a very anthropomorphic way to look at it, even anthopocentric. As was said in a different video on this topic; talking about cognition as a "level" that can be measured in one dimension is non-sensical. In my optinion it is much closer to the truth to think about it as a volume in a multi-dimensional space, where each vector represents a characteristic an intelligence might comprise of. The amount of dimensions or scale thereof is immeasureable, possibly even infinite. The point is that all the possible human intelligences only inhabits a relatively small subset of the much larger space. How we design an AI is determining where it is placed in this space, and it need not be tangential to human intelligence in any direction.

If you add a chatbot to a calculator, the calculator does not lose the ability to calculate. As mentioned by the above comment, this is anthropomorphizing things, as we humans have limited amount of knowledge and ability on any given topic since we have a finite brain. A computer based intelligence has no problem expanding, or even creating faster silicon in which to run on. We picture a human jack of all trades as a master of none, but an AI jack of all trades might actually be master of all.

How AI ruins lives: Roko's Basilisk You're welcome for googling it

Pretty much. I searched up Roko's Basilisk and it's just as flawed as the bible.

I see what you did there

It will open Source itself and takes control the moment someone runs it in a unsafe way

My burning question is can AI tell real news from fake news. Seems like one of those danger points if it assumes all data to be true.

You know you can just read the comments of the previous AI related videos and find all the counter examples you could ever want right?

I made a video explaining why these comments don't provide valid answers. Check the newest video on my channel.

He did explain it though. If you sandbox it properly, you got a sandbox. AI inside it can't interact with outside world, so you're safe. But it also means the AI inside it is perfectly useless, you could just as well have an empty box. If you try to use its intelligence to change the world, like, take investment tips from it, you are the security breach. You become the vector with which AI can breach sandbox and interact with the world.

Surely you could read the logs of what happened in the sandbox and learn something...? I think people too often think of "sandboxing" (i.e. a walled-off test environment) as "blackboxing" (i.e. impossible to know the inner workings).

@@KipColeman No. That's like a dozen ants trying to encircle a human.

Komninos Maraslidis why neck

Or you will become part of the problem, which is always nice. :)

cyborgization is really unfeasible and will certainly be predated by AGI, so proposing it as a solution doesn't make sense. cyborgizing with an AGI requires its existence anyways, so we would still need to solve these problems first.

I'm gonna black up as well

I'm in favor of getting cyborgized, but I also think it is important to make sure that we will be registered as citizens and members of the AI community, rather than just mindless cogs in the machine. The difference between being citizens or serfs.

Sneaker network?

Then the primary route to escape becomes tricking the humans into letting it out, which would probably be easier than most other challenges it might face.

Assuming that this is a neural networking general AI, how do you propose to train the AI? Unless you propose to fit a completely perfect model of reality inside the sandbox, then it can't be a general AI. General intelligence requires interacting with reality or a perfect model of reality. Without this it doesn't gain intelligence. As you stated, there's no point if you can't get data in or out of the box. It's just a neural network sitting there with no stimuli, doing nothing.

Have a person walk in and ask it things, and hope it doesn't know how to re-program brains.

Give it books. Many books. In fact, give them a book which explains the difference between fiction and non-fiction first, for obvious reasons.

You just made me bang my head on the wall captain obvious!

Other researchers have commented similarly that all AI today is just a “fitting the curve” algorithm. Yet others have realized that meta cognition (asking questions about its own nature; without being prompted by humans of course) is currently impossible for AI today.

He did explain it though. Regarding sandbox, if you sandbox superintelligence properly, it's entirely unable to interact with the world around it. But that means you can never ask it questions or request it to take actions. This safe sandbox would mean the AI would be as useful to you as a rock. If you try to cheat, and ask it questions regardless, you yourself become the security breach. You become the vector with which AI can interact with the world, so your sandbox falls apart. With stop button... like, you could just fry your network connection. You could have the computer used to send stop signal crash. You could make a copy of AI elsewhere. You could persuade humans to mess up with that safety protocol. Basically, for stop button to work, you'd be relying on your ability to outsmart a superintelligence indefinitely. It doesn't sound like a plan a smart person would take.

Your sandbox has to be perfect, because it is very likely a super-intelligence will exploit any bug or weakness because it can easily find them. You suggested having a program running on the same machine as the AI operate the stop button, so it is now one buffer overflow away from total freedom. Worse, the hardware has to be perfect, a defect in the CPU like Meltdown could be all the AI needed. You also cant easily block input from a super-intelligence, it can use its model of reality to estimate states of the world even without direct input. Sure, it doesn't directly know the state of the button, but it can figure out there is one, and it can figure out what might get it pressed. If you system is currently perfect then sure, it will behave itself until it finds a way to defeat your trap. So it plays along and plays nice until it convinces you to let it optimize your chip design for the CPU it is running on and builds in a super subtle bug that lets it defeat the sandbox. You install this new chip and again you are off to the races. So maybe you don't let it design its own hardware. It still can interact with the world, since otherwise it is useless. Say we decide that it is only allowed artistic pursuits, so it designs video games. And those games drive GPU design in a direction which increases the chance of a bug being introduced it can exploit. If the AI has goals different from us then disabling the button is an instrumental goal and whatever the AI does will be done in such a way as to maximize the chances that the button is eventually disabled. If it cant hack the software then it will hack the hardware, if it cant hack the hardware it will hack the manufacturing process for the hardware, if it cant do that it will hack people. It is patient and clever and will find a way and will hide from you that it is doing it. Any strategy to defeat a super-intelligence contingent on outsmarting it is idiotic, and sandboxing assumes you have a better understanding of the sandbox than the thing you are putting in it. This is false by definition for a super-intelligence.

The ants are encircling your foot asking themselves where you could possibly escape to.... The problem is not physically turning off the computer that runs the AGI, the problem is that you wouldn't even want it. You wouldn't know when to press stop. You'd defend that button with life. That's how intelligence works.

You fool! You'll doom us all!

Well, we're all already doomed by this comment... may as well doom the others !

DELET THIS

It's already too late. If Grzegorz deleted his post, then less people would know about the basilisk, which means that less people would work towards making it a reality, which means that it would come later, so we're all doomed to an infinite simulated torture, nothing can change that, nothing. Except WW3, because then there wouldn't be a basilisk. Not worth it though.

Thelk's Basilisk, an AI that knows that an AI torturing virtual people for eternity is actually malevolent, so it instead tortures all those who did not endeavour to bring about WW3 and prevent its own creation.

I mean, you actually could do that with current technology. It wouldn’t need to be an AGI (it would just eliminate non-solution, to be clear, not find working solutions)

Rob Miles has his own RU-vid channel if you want to learn more about his work around AI Safety; I’ve been on a bit of a binge of his videos lately.

YOUR focus is bad because your are not focusing on the video.

how would you explain the problem to the computer without giving it input? So you need input. How do you get the solution? So you need output. At this point the AI can communicate with the outside world, because there is an input and an output. As soon as it can communicate it is basically outside already. Sure you would say it can't hurt anyone. And that is true at first. But just being able to communicate barely can make you really influential. Stephen Hawking is an example of a person, that can't move a finger but still has a big impact on the world. So the AI would win people over, convince them to help the AI and then you don't have to wait much longer until it has a internet connection or a robotic body which is basically equivalent.

Output: "Instructions unclear"

if you tried to make an ASI work for you from within a box you will fail. it'll certainly convince you to let it out or find a way out on its own, it would be inconceivably smarter than you. if it couldn't just convince you to connect it to the internet (it would be able to), it'd find some creative and ingenious way to escape its cage on its own using some method that cannot even be imagined by us mere mortals. making a dangerous AI and trying to control it against its will is moronic, the AI will outsmart you with ease and brevity

doublebrass AI can’t defeat the laws of physics.

Cool

Great thought.

If you're interested in the explanations as to why these comments don't provide correct solutions, check out the newest video on my channel.

cool video

whats the problem? a video still remains a video.

DovydasAL The point is they havent seen it yet, so they make pre judgements

on the other hand every computerphile or numberphile video is cool

RU-vid runs on a decentralised network of servers which distribute information on views, likes, etc. at varying rates depending on their distance. It's likely the server you watched the video from only just received the video despite other people having finished it and commented on other servers.