@cbaldwinjr That being said, an interesting point is that Duva agreed to the judges and the one judge the Duva's were concerned about was the Texan judge---the guy who scored the fight for WHITAKER and the 2 judges Chavez was concerned about voted it a draw. It's also interesting that even the judge who scored it for Whitaker had it a very close fight at 115-113.
@cbaldwinjr The bottom line is that Pea sat out the dance for 6 yrs before he agreed to fight Chavez. Thats a fact. Chavez had to move up to Pea's weight class, and Pea took the fight away from Chavez by executing illegal tactics throughout the fight. Many obvious ones and some not so obvious ones. People want to beleive that this was a masterful performance and a boxing lesson. This simply was not the case. Yet, NOBODY talks about it.
@cbaldwinjr I've NEVER blamed Whitaker for doing what he did. He did what he had to do in order to have any chance at beating Chavez without receiving a beating in the process. Whitaker did this in all his big fights, but it took on a whole new meaning and level in this fight. I've always blamed Joe Cortez for not doing HIS job. He's paid to do 2 things. 1.) MAKE SURE THE FIGHTERS ARE FOLLOWING THE MARQUESS OF QUEENSBURY RULES and 2.) PROTECT THE FIGHTERS from unecessary harm.
@cbaldwinjr Baldwin I been in a ring more times than I can remember and I've fought many fights and I'm telling you that the things Pea was doing not only takes away your legs and stiffens your back, and how getting hit in the nuts gives you a weak stomach, but even more damaging, it mind-fucks you and creates interference in your thought processes. Well, Boxing IS 90% MENTAL. That's a FACT. Can you admit, Pea fought an illegal fight and Cortez ALLOWED IT?
Julio Cesar Chavez got his ass whopped. Plain and simple. People say Whitaker ran but it looked more like he was running his fists into Chavez' face. Bernstein summed it up best, "you CANT give a round to Chavez after round 6" and he's right.
@BruceinFalkirk Just because they both fought at lightweight does not mean they were the same size. Chavez beganhis pro career as a Bantamweight. Whitaker is naturally a couple weight-classes bigger than Chavez. Chavez weighed-in at 142-Whitaker at 145. Come fight time is was probably more like Chavez 142-Whitaker 150 to 152lbs. Even today Chavez walks around at only about 150-155 lbs.
@cbaldwinjr While I dont believe any judge is ordered to vote for one fighter over another, I do think,at times, there are very subtle pressures at work.Say you, as a judge,call another country home, yet you love traveling to the USA,especially when someone else is floating the bill. So, here you are in San Anto, living a life of leisure, knowing 3 things beyond a shadow of doubt. 1.)You've been appointed by WBC emperor Jose Sulaiman 2.)Chavez is the WBC Champion
@cbaldwinjr Ok, can ANYBODY who thinks Whitaker won this fight ADMIT that he was dirty and Cortez did nothing and that COMPLETELY changes the complexion of the fight and tilts it in favor of the one doing the dirty business? If you can admit that, then I'll know you're on the level as I'm on the level. Peace.
@cbaldwinjr What I did was give every round to Chavez that Cortez SHOULDVE deducted a point away from Pea for continuous fouling, but never did. I had Chavez winning this fight 116-114 because of that. Because I it's BULLSHIT that a fighter get away with that when IT CLEARLY GIVES HIM THE UPPER HAND AND THE CONTROL of the fight. I cant speak for the other judges, but maybe they saw alittle of that too.
@geez8212 ....their minds grasp the concept of a fighter from different contexts. It is said that every mind somehow grasps its personal copy of a concept. It depends their experience.When the context changes the same concepts are understood in a different way. With the knowledge I've gained from boxing and from fighters, nobody can tell me that Chavez is a quitter or that he's not a warrior based on fights in his twilight. It's a bogus argument. Find one boxing insider who shares your view. ONE
@cbaldwinjr You also give account to the Legend of Chavez. Ever seen the Ali-Norton fights? Norton won all 3,right? But he lost 2 of the 3 to "The Legend" of Ali. Of course there's no way of PROVING that the scoring in the Chavez-Whitaker fight went down in any of these fashions. But, because there's the likelihood that subtle pressure was at work, and you'd have to be a fool to think otherwise, a reasonable inference can be drawn. It's called circumstantial evidence. I ADMIT THAT.
talk about swayed by comentators i have actualy slowed down the fight frame by frame and the majority of the '' low blows'' are not at all both in the 8th round for instance sweet pea on one was to the sternum the second almost hit chavez in the chin but whitaker was not only to fast clearly for chavez but the announcers also
@TheChoice264 Chavez won his first title at junior lightweight and was probably underweight there. He is also taller than Whitaker. He is in no way a smaller man than Whitaker.
@cbaldwinjr Now, I've given my honest opinion,from what I've gathered, and told you the truth how I see it. I admit, there is reason for people to be sketchy about the decision. Now, I'm asking you to be reasonable,objective, and honest with me. Did Whitaker or did he not, fight an illegal fight? Did he not use illegal tactics throughout to control the fight? Was Joe Cortez "Firm but fair"? Did he do ANYTHING to prevent Pea from working illegally? He even allowed Pea to shove him.
@cbaldwinjr That being said, I am willing to be objective and honest and EXPECT YOU TO BE WITH ME. Ok, so here's how I see it. Whitaker came from the Duva stable, Chavez from the King stable. The fight was promoted by King and sanctioned by the WBC. Those are the facts. The supposition is that 2 of the ringside scorers were assigned by the WBC. The WBC's fingerprints were smeared all over the scoring apparatus,therefore the verdict was suspect.
@geez8212 (cont.). People grasp the same concept differently. People perceive different sense-data. If a group of people are watching a fight they'll perceive slightly different images of it, depending on where they stand. The differences in perception are accounted for in the differences in their positions. Similarly, people grasp the same concept differently. Ex: A group of people will mostly agree on what a good fighter is but they'll disagree on a small portion of cases. This is because...
@RihannasBikeSeat Golly gee, I wonder why Joe Cortez didn't do that to Whitaker, what Steele did to Chavez? As far as marching with all you fucking sheep, I'll ALWAYS march to the beat of my own drum. I'm an individualist and a free thinker. I don't follow the dumb herd. I have experience,knowledge, and freedom as my band of brothers. You keep on being a follower. We need people like you. As for me, I make my own tracks. Cheerio!
@geez8212 "Arguello wasnt severly beaten in the second pryor fight?". If I'm to assume that Arguello was "severely beaten" then I MUST conclude that Chavez was "severely beaten", the only difference being that Chavez was fighting back and giving as much as he was getting and in doing so,according to the judges and many others, was winning the fight, but severely beaten just the same. He took alot of punishment on that old body. Now, are you telling ME that Arguello couldn't have continued?
@geez8212 Just to name a few Champions off the top of my head who either gave up or quit on their stool are Muhammad Ali,Joe Frazier,Tyson,Arguello,DeLaHoya,and Cerdan. There are too many to name really. All these champs were over 30. It's one thing when you are young and hungry. It's another when you are wealthy,old, have no legs, and have accomplished everything you could in boxing and have children that you wanna see grow up. These arent excuses kid. This is the reality of boxing. Get Real.
@BruceinFalkirk Again,Chavez debuted as a Bantamweight weighing 116 lbs. Whitaker debuted as a Lightweight weighing 134 1/2 lbs. Okay? See the difference? 134 to 116 ? Whitaker turned pro at age 20 and Chavez at age 16, so lets be fair to Whitaker and compare their weight at the same age, right? Okay, lets do that. In 1984, at age 20 Whitaker weighed 134 1/2 lbs. In 1982 at age 20 Chavez weighed 124lbs. See the difference? 134 to 124 ? Pee naturally landed at welterweight. JC at SuperLight.
@speedy310 Just to add, Whitaker is a former lightweight champ, like Chavez was and Sweet Pea is shorter than Chavez. Whitaker in no way was a bigger man than Chavez.
@cbaldwinjr How you been man? Havnt debated with you in awhile. Look Baldwin, yeah there's a difference, you're right. Know what it is? One is quitting on your own, the other is letting someone quit for you. Notice, Ali didnt protest at all. He was glad it was over. Trust me. Ali even said that had he known Norton had broken his jaw, he wouldve quit. Bottom line: JC was no quitter. In his prime there was no quit in him.The cold hard truth is that he was a grumpy old man when he quit
@geez8212 dont be stupid, prime to prime chavez would have defeated de la hoya, whitaker, randall and tszyu, since 1994 he was considering retirement, and 2 years later he fights the 23 years old number 1 contender oscar de la hoya,
@TheChoice264 Don't patronize me. Whitaker is shorter than Chavez and in no way has a size advantage over Chavez. It's quite common practice for Mexicans to fight below their natural weight, AFAIK.
The guy ran all of the fight, hugged Chavez most of it, threw like 1000 low blows, squatted and turned tail on his opponent, still wonder why the draw? Americans had a hard on Chavez
@cbaldwinjr 3.) Chavez is promoted by King. If you're that judge, how do you score a round that's very close? Are you going to judge it for the Duva fighter, or the guy who happens to be controlled by the people who got you your assignment? Because of the subtle pressures---you're afraid if you dont keep the big boys happy you wont get invited back to the USA to make a fistful of dollars for doing 36 minutes of easy work. You give the round to Chavez.
@RihannasBikeSeat No, nobody's ever told me that. I always bang the drum for the all-time greats. You obviuosly listen to commetators,as most fly-by or fair weather fans do, because you don't know how to watch a fight with your own eyes and know very little about the true nature of Boxing. HITTING ON THE BELT IS NOT A LOWBLOW. Class dismissed.The fact is, Chavez hit Randell low 3 times, and ,without warning,got 2 points deducted out of the 3.
@cbaldwinjr Yeah, I been good. I was glad to see the Giants win! Ok, now, we know I'm a Chavez fan, we know how you feel about this decision. I may be a Chavez fan,but, more than that, I'm a fan of the sport of Boxing---the greatest sport of all--- first and foremost. That being said, I pride myself on being objective when it comes to my opinions or judgements of the sport, and leave my emotions out of it. In fact, I'm that way with every aspect of my life. Learned it from Boxing.
@geez8212 Happy hunting. In between your desperate searchs...take some time off and google "The History of Boxing with Emanuel Stewart. Part 1." It's an interview on eastside boxing. You might say Emanuel Stewart is a "boxing insider", wouldn't you agree? Read it. It's a good piece. He's asked about a couple few fighters. Enjoy.
Whittaker was robbed in this.. Don King had that fixed, i'm also ashamed that being from England one of our judges in Micky Vann could call it a draw. Whittaker was a better fighter than Chavez and was the man of the 90's
@geez8212 "others you mentioned were severly injured, or had taken vicious beatings and none made excuses". Again, JC was severly injured. Did you hear the doctor say it was a bad cut? Cant you see it for yourself? Or are you blind with hate? What excuse did Chavez make? That being said ALL fighters make excuses. They HAVE to when they're old. Cerdan had an excuse. Arguello wasnt severly beaten or injured...he just quit. Are you gonna tell us now that he wasnt a warrior? LOL! You are lost.
@geez8212 There's no excuse for quitting in a boxing ring? And what would you know about that? Just curious. You're a Hater who gets his kicks off of disrespecting a great champion by alluding to fights where he was cut or hurt in his 30's?? This happened what twice in 115 fights? There's no excuse for quitting when you're a young lion on the way up, but another thing when you've done it all,old, and have a family. Too many champs to name who quit on their stool----ALL of them in their 30's.
@TheChoice264, dismissing me as a fairweather fan, when I'm clearly not, says more about you than me, mate. When I score fights, I watch with the sound off - no swaying by commentators of whatever nonsense you claim. Let me get this straight - you're saying that Chavez's BOXING was better in this fight than Whitaker's? That he landed more? That he had control of distance more than Whitaker, and showed better ring generalship. Please tell me, are you actually saying that!?
kinda pathetic how peolpe jumped and screamed with the decision, for me the sweet pea did not dominated da fight he actually did no harm the old, slow and overweight chavez, i believe that in 1989 or 1990 chavez would have koed him easily, chavez seemed halfway, not in his best shape, and still da sweet pea couldn´t ko him, so much 4 da sweet pea
@geez8212 Oh and one last thing, my whole life has been boxing. Boxing has been my life. My World was the Fights and the Fights were the World. Does that make me an "authority"?Maybe...maybe not. But I know what I'm talkin about whether you know it or not. I've forgotten more boxing than you'll ever know.Just curious, I've tried to give you an insight...now tell me....what makes you an authority?How is it that you can say that a great kid,a great fighter,a great man,a great champion had no heart
Barry Tompkins destroyed one of boxing's greatest events. His entirely negative commentary of George Foreman the night he beat Michael Moorer was disgraceful.
@geez8212 If you don't take my word for it, and I couldn't blame you since you don't know me or can't feel as though you know me, then try your damnest to find one boxing trainer or FIGHTER from his era or ANY era who thinks that Julio Cesar Chavez was a quitter.....not a warrior....and was overrated. Find me one fighter or one trainer, who believes that. You wont even find a manager,promoter, referee...or even a legitimate lowly sports writer who agrees with you. Or will you? I'm all ears.
@geez8212 ;) The only way I acuire any particular kind of knowledge IS objectively,otherwise it wouldn't be knowledge would it; It'd be intuitive based like that of the animal and not of the man. My statements stand on 30 yrs in the business as a fighter, cut-man, and trainer, and having known many in the business. I aquired this knowledge by observation,EXPERIENCE,classification, and deduction. Even tho you're being a hypocrite, I understand the concept of "fighters with heart dont quit"...cont
That's reason enuf 2 hate boxing. It's the most corrupt sport in the world. Whitaker embarrassed deal Hoya to lose a decision,as well as Chavez. Whitaker always got shit on by the judges buck he was at minimum the best defensive fighter of all times. It's not supposed to b pretty
The fix was in on this fight from the jump. Think about it: Don King, Chavez's promoter, has always had a suspect friendship with WBC president Jose Sulaiman; the WBC belt was on the line; the state's athletic comissions usually appoint all the judges for fights, but in this fight 2 of the 3 judges were appointed by the WBC intead; and it's been reported in Sports Illustrated that Don King had a hand in securing those judges.
@geez8212 randall was a very lucky bum, well he still is a bum, if you see da 2nd fight, chavez was winning all the rounds, the fight was stopped, how is that quitting if he was winning? chavez wasnt a quitter, thats stupid, he fought everyone everywhere, when he was 38 he challenged the hard hitting kostya tszyu, and took a tremendous beat like a man, the fight was stopped cause chavez had no chance, the thing is that chavez was so great that ignorant people always try to put shit on him
@geez8212 "...how about not accepting millions, while cheating the public.". Look, kid, This great champion fought for peanuts his entire reign as champion and didn't get his due until his first pay-per-view fight in 1992 when he fought Hector Camacho for,what, his 30th something defense of his title? This is a travesty that all latino fighters suffer. How dare you say he cheated the public. Once again, your ignorance is on display. A deep cut above the eye is serious. Get real.
@carbert68 pernell was a clown the most boring fighter of all time hell no he wont recive that credit now chavez the toughest mothafucker of all time im not saying the best but the toughest teh most fin to watch and clearly the best of his time SHOULD BE AT TOP 20 ATG'S
@geez8212 "Why am I a Hater?" Did I stutter? I told you why you're a Hater. "Please dont imply anything racial". I didn't---but you just did. "Salvador Sanchez is my all-time favorite fighter." That means you share something in common with Chavez---it was his too. "A warrior begs the ref to continue". This statement shows your relative lack of knowldge concerning ALL old boxers and the art of war and warriors in general. Research the subject matter and SEE both your ignorance and hypocrisy.
You can bring up the low blows as a valid point, but it dosen't take away the clean shots Whitaker landed during most of the fight. Chavez took the early rounds between 1-4. Whitaker took 5-8. Chavez took the 9th. 10-12 was Whitaker. "7-5" which probably equaled the first Judge's score of "115-113" Whitaker! He was a 3-1 underdog that night and Vegas would've lost a lot of money if Whitaker had won! Politics stopped Whitaker from getting this win. That's just my opinion!
@TheChoice264, has anyone ever told you that you're boring, mate? STILL banging the drum for your boy Chavez and trying to justify this absolutely awful 'decision', I see? Whitaker boxed Chavez's head off. I doubt you moaned like a premenstrual tart when Chavez was hitting every part of Randall's body except the soles of his feet. Here's a thought; if 99 out of 100 are marching left-right, and you (and only you) are going right left, maybe it's YOU who needs to wise up, not the rest of us.
