An Infinite Debt - with Christopher Havens (Prisoner  

"To turn justice into something beautiful." I think that's an idea worth repeating!

When I was younger my half brother nearly murdered me. Tried to smother me to death with a pillow. My mother just happened to walk by and stop him. I look now a few decades later at how he's been a good father and a good person. One mistake almost cost two lives that day. I wonder how many people were just that one dumb stroke of luck away from having a normal life. How many people ended up needing someone to stumble upon them like my mom did and stop them. Has shaped my thoughts of crime and people since I was little.

This person took 'Do math, not meth' *_WAY_* too literally!

He was doing meth, now he's doing math.

I was good with algebra in prison but didn't have the resources I needed to help me with trigonometry when I needed it. It is what it is. Keep up the great work, guys!...💯

I've enjoyed a lot of Numberphile podcasts - this is the first one that triggered me to action. I'm pleased to be a volunteer and mentor with the Prison Math Project now.

This is the best thing you’ve done Brady. Very inspirational. Chris Havens may physically be in a prison but he has traversed a universe of wisdom and knowledge. This is life. changing.

This is why educational outreach like numberphile is so important. There's so many people that slip through the cracks of the education system without finding their passion in life because they're just not exposed to the content or not in an engaging way

Wow. Incredible story. Thanks for the hard work!

I think this was extremely interesting. I'm glad someone who was a threat to society has seemingly become a better person, and thus no longer a threat. I think this is a good thing, that he is getting opportunity to better himself, and creating that for others who fucked up in life and need to fix their path. I can understand the thought that "this is too much nice stuff and not enough punishment for a criminal". But I think that's looking at it from the entirely wrong lens... Of course you can't erase the crimes of someone who took the life of someone else, or any other crime. But I believe that educating and stimulating the minds of criminals so that they can change as people, is much better than them just letting them rot, eventually get out, and then make the same mistakes again, thus causing more damage to other people in society. This way, they won't do that anymore. And of course, there's the lens of "this is something someone who is out in society doesn't have the luxury to do, because of various societal issues"... And to that, I believe it's another issue entirely -- it's not that "prisons are getting too much good", but rather, maybe we should also be re-examining our own society. Maybe people should be afforded the time to de-stress from the daily grind of work, eat, sleep, pay the bills... And they could have time to get over addiction issues, or any other issues in their life. It sounds like, at least in this case, the separation from all the craziness in life, and the opportunity to sit down and just self reflect, and focus on learning something and being passionate about it, changed a person. I can't imagine this being the case for someone out in society, save for the extremely wealthy who don't need to work a day in their life. I am not saying it's all sunshine and roses in prison, obviously it isn't. But it's sad to think the only way this person became someone more productive to society is due to the aftermath of a crime, and thus being removed from that very society -- the one which drove him to become a drug addict and commit murder. Why is it that society could not help him prior to that? Or help any individuals struggling from issues, in society? Instead of people thinking "this guy is a criminal, and thus shouldn't be trying to better himself", why not consider this... There are lots of people who are struggling in the world, with addiction or various other societal issues, who aren't able to get help. We obviously do not want them driven to the point of fucking up so bad that they kill another person. So why not expand the mindset of "let's help those who are troubled become more productive members of society" to those who need it, even outside the prison system? We don't want them to end up there to begin with. (Of course this is not to undermine the efforts to help rehabilitate those already in that system, it's just as additional thought.) It would be wonderful if those who are struggling with addiction or other similar kinds of issues could be afforded the help, and the time off from society's pressure and demands, to be able to have this kind of self introspection and just opportunity to learn and grow. At least in American society though, it's like, if you don't work work work, you can't pay the rent, you can't buy food, and you can't pay for medical bills. There isn't any down time in our society for those who have very real issues to even seek help. And then they make irreversible mistakes, and end up thrown in jail. And at that point, rightfully so, but why did our society let them get there. Why are we living in a society where the only place which could heal and change a man was the place he was sent after committing a horrible crime? I think programs like this, which promote education and rehabilitation are great, but we as a society also need to see similar efforts put into helping those who are on the outside, yet still struggling with being productive members of society, all the same. I think about how other countries have prison systems which are already much more focused on rehabilitation, and how society in general is more conducive to just trying to help those who are struggling with getting their life together in general, in comparison to the USA. I think the most sad thing is that this person who clearly has a brilliant mathematical mind, was stuck in such a situation in his life, that he made the mistakes of drug addiction and murder. It's a shame that society wasn't set up in a way that he could have had this epiphany about math a decade earlier. But given what the facts are, right now, I think it's good that the program he started is something that can likely help people who made mistakes in the past become better people, and thus not make those same mistakes down the road. We as society need to do better than this, but at least it's one positive step.

"There is overwhelming evidence that the higher the level of self-esteem, the more likely one will be to treat others with respect, kindness, and generosity." - Nathaniel Branden

This is truly beautiful. With the roaring wave of negativity streaming from the news, these are the changes we should hear more about. I am not very patriotic, but on this specific topic I think the statement "look to Norway" is justified. I believe the urge to punish crime largely stems from a mistake: Thinking that we fully control how our lives will turn out. You don't. You might lose a loved one through no fault of your own, and that will feel terrible. That does not, however, entitle you ownership of another person's life in return. The only thing you can do, is try as best you can to reduce the likelihood of acts of violence being commited in society as a whole, and an excellent way of doing that is humanizing prisons.

This was amazing Brady. Thank you so much for sharing

Gives a whole new meaning to "applied mathematics".

Brady personally thanks for this .Bring more stories like this

Thank you so much for doing this piece! He is an amazing human. Numberphile, as always, gets a big A+.

I'm speechless and near tears having just listened to this story. On the other hand I'm in shock being confronted with the Horrors of the american way of imprisonment once more...

This is the best numberphile podcast till now

-What are you doing there? I need to use The Phone!!! - Wait there. I'm recording a podcast. That's awesome!

I didn't think an episode of numberphile podcast could make me cry. The question of "what could have been" was so painful, but also what did happen is so beautiful. I can't think of what the family of the victim feel about this. Would they feel resentment that this guy who murdered their loved one is flourishing? Or would they see this as true justice, the way Cristopher described it?

That's something new. Worth telling. Thank you.

Great podcast. Thank you.

This was a surprisingly beautiful video.

Good for him! What a turnaround.

this is wonderful

What an incredible story!

You have made me cry Brady, I always said justice is not vengance, this is a living prove of that, the crime cannot be undonde, but life is what continues.

What an interesting story!

43:30 Well said. 100% agree.

this was so intensely interesting

beautiful story.

Wow great content

Brady, can you track down the guy who slid the math envelops under the doors? I would listen to that guy speak too.

Why are American prisons so... over the top dehumanising. There is no need for this.

Que história emocionante!

I think the justice system in the USA has too much emphasis on punishment end not enough on rehabilitation and that is part of the problem the USA justice system has. It is wonderful that Christopher tries to change that and it is wonderful seeing the change that mathematics made in his life. But I also hear the struggle he still has with this infinite guilt of a taken life. Although math often deals with infinities it obviously can not help with that guild and he is right that nothing he does ever can fully make up for what he did. But there is a solution for that. There is someone who is capable to pay the price and actually did it. The price for sin is death and God himself in Jesus payed the price for any guilt by giving giving his own life as a payment for sin. I whish someone who has contact to Christopher would tell him that perhaps it would help him.

When I hear "Justice System" I always think of Nineteen Eighty Four and Orwell's "Minitruth" and "Minilove". It is a Legal System. Justice is not punishment, it's doing the right thing at the time. Punishment is simply the other side of the balance sheet and a debt to the state is wiped clean after "paying" that sentence. Redemption is becoming the person who wouldn't "do that again". If a contrite person asks for forgiveness after redemption then that person deserves forgiveness. I'd like to think I'd forgive Mr. Havens in a heartbeat. If not then the shame is mine.

I really hope Christopher makes educational outreach videos exploring his journey and teaching what he's learnt and how he views things (life and maths) when he finishes his sentence.

Daaaamn 25 years what'd he do!?

Where is the prison located at?

I wondered what a convicted criminal who was interested in mathematics would look like. Turns out he's an exact cross between Tom Rocks Maths and James Grime.

Meth Math Myth - uplifting

From Meth to Math.

4:22 It's a stretch to say that prison serves a role of rehabilitation. When you look at how prisons are designed - at least in the US - rehabilitation is a bug, not a feature. It's rare, and it generally happens in spite of how prisons are designed, not because of it.

Any plans to talk to the mathematics professor Theodore Kaczynski?

7:47 "bruh"

This might be viewed as risky to give this person a platform, but I respect bradys courage to tell this story regardless of potential backlash

This guy looks like Robert Webb.

An infinite debt? Like our sin debt to God. Good thing Jesus paid the fine though.

Why the hell do you baby him? You talk about redemption and say that HE says the debt can never be repaid, but don't go so far as to say it yourself. He killed a man. No matter what good he might be doing now, that man is never getting his life back; his family will never see him again. You're awfully cavalier about the worlds Christopher shattered.