An Official Lutheran Roman Catholic Dialogue on the Eucharist 

Always nice to see us and our fellow Christians come to agreement, especially on major issues such as this. Hopefully soon enough we can all be united once more in the truth of the Gospel

Make sure to keep going on this topic, Pastor! It is very appreciated.

"Concordia-Lutheran" is a term that my former professor Werner Klän (SELK), who is part of this group, often used ("konkordien-lutherisch"). He wants to distinguish from those Lutherans who somehow come from a Lutheran tradition, but don't subscribe to the whole Book of Concord. He is simply referring to the Book of Concord.

Part 2 of Joseph Ratzinger’s “Spirit of the Liturgy” gives a great summary of the connections between the early Christian liturgies and sacred spaces and the liturgies and setups of early synagogues. It ties really well to what Dr. Cooper is saying and completely blew my mind.

Your opening comments reminded me very much of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, an ecumenical statement built on language that allows for not only divergent but mutually exclusive beliefs to coincide as "unity". You went on to mention the JDDJ later.

I actually don't think ENOUGH people are talking about this final report from the ILC-PCPCU. I don't want to blow it out of proportion, but it seems like there are some really big steps made towards better understanding each other. Even the Justification portion had some advances I really liked seeing.

Erick Ybarra has a book out on Melchizedek and the eucharist that is super good. It covers specifically the sacrificial nature of the mass.

Why is this document SO HARD TO FIND! I swear you can’t find it from their website and can only find the link here.

Very glad this is happening, Lutherans and Catholics definitely have our differences but these differences are narrowing and the more of these left wing denominations like the ELCA and PCUSA show up the more our similarities are highlighted

This is amazing!

Oo, yes please continue this document! (The appendix on ordination is... interesting...)

I think it's great to find some genuine common grounds. However, if they in Rome still hold us to be anathema because of Justification amongst other issues, it doesn't quite seem to make a whole lot of difference. Rome rejects The Book of Concord, and Lutherans reject Trent. Perhaps I am oversimplifying?

I’m a Catholic and I really enjoy your videos! I’ve learned a lot about many different denominations

I throughly enjoyed it! Thanks be to God!!

As a R. Catholic, thank you for this video.

Can you read and interact with this book. “Transubstantiation: Theology, History, and Christian Unity” the author interacts with Luther and Calvin’s understanding of the Eucharist in light of Thomas Aquinas

In what ways are there problems with Odo Casel, Gregory Dix and Yngve Brilioth and the Four-fold Shape of the Liturgy? I'd be very concerned about fusing their theology with confessional Lutheranism.

Brett Salkeld has written a very detailed and well-documented book on the topic of the Eucharist, looking at the views of Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin. It would be worth a conversation with him on this topic. He can be found easily enough on RU-vid, I believe.

Found this footnote in the report regarding the use of the term “Concordia-Lutheran” “Reform-Catholic” and “Concordia-Lutheran” are terms coined to describe re- spectively the early and late 16th-century forms of the Lutheran movement. “Reform-Catholic” refers to the early Wittenberg movement that attempted to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within. The Augsburg Confession belongs to this phase. “Concordia-Lutheran” represents the developed form of Lutheranism that has become a distinct body, a “confession” within ecumenical Christendom. It is defined by the complete collection of documents in the Book of Concord, particularly the Formula of Concord. Cf. the corresponding distinction between “confessorial” and “confessional” in §1.3.”

This agreement is what I (as a RC) have been waiting for years to hear! Correct me if I am wrong on this point: Do the areas of agreement in this document IMPLY that the Catholic Church accepts the validity of the ordination of confessional Lutheran pastors? I would say IT DOES. That would be great news.

At the 1 minute mark - "...the objective power of God, through the minster..." - is that mediated by grace through the Spirit? Wonderful presentation, by the way. Greatly appreciated!!

The sacrifice is neither repeated nor is it merely a one-and-done thing. It is timeless and is in some sense on-going -- Christ didn't stop offering himself, that's what he's doing now and will do eternally in Heaven... ("Slain from the foundation of the earth"; "forever mediating"... etc) The Eucharist is merely our (time-bounded) participation in the once-for-all/yet on-going reality of Christ's sacrifice. What we offer is ourselves, our alms (bread and wine), and our praise/thanksgiving-the remembrance of Christ... but _through_ our offering and participation (in faith), Christ unites to us and offers Himself AND us with Him -- securing forgiveness, life, and salvation. Luther has this quote that ".. It is not we who offer Christ, but Christ who offers us.. and in some sense, our faith in turn offers Christ and presents Him as our only hope and savior before the righteous and holy Father.." That's the nuance, I think.

i applaud this. the anglican church needs to make this same agreement

why should Catholics (or Rome as you like to call us) be bound to the polemics of the 16th century and the theological understanding of that time? it's the deposit of faith of scripture, of the Fathers and of the councils that remains the same, not every nuance of theology. it doesn't disprove our claims if we hold something different than what Bellarmine held to.

As a Catholic, I do appreciate what you are saying. Obviously, I think you are wrong about certain things and vice versa, but I am glad that there are forums to better understand one another such as your channel. Keep up the good work. God bless!

While it is true that the words of institution are said quietly in the traditional Latin mass, the accompanying ceremonies ensured that these words are the focus of the mass - even for the people: bells are rung and the elements are lifted up so that they could be seen by the people. Attending a traditional Latin mass brings this home very clearly (whether said or solemn).

Augustine on sacrifice: "Since, therefore, true sacrifices are works of mercy to ourselves or others, done with a reference to God...it follows that the whole redeemed city, that is to say, the congregation or community of the saints, is offered to God as our sacrifice through the great High Priest...This is the sacrifice of Christians: we, being many, are one body in Christ. And this also is the sacrifice which the Church continually celebrates in the sacrament of the altar, known to the faithful, in which she teaches that she herself is offered in the offering she makes to God." (City of God, Book X, Ch. 6). I think Augustine has something to teach each side here. Contra Lutherans, the sacrament really is a sacrifice in the sense that it is a participation in, and offering of, the sacrifice of the entire City of God, including Christ's perfect sacrifice and the good works of the saints (which are mediated by Christ). Contra Rome, it is not that the act of offering the body of Christ is a good work and a propitiatory sacrifice, but that good works of the saints (who participate in the mystical body of Christ) are the true sacrifices offered whenever they are done, but are offered and celebrated together, as one, at the altar.

Interesting!

LSB frankly isn't the best presentation of modern Lutheran Eucharistic Prayers -- it awkwardly divorces the prayer from the verba, removes any explicit language of offering or the memorial recitation of Christ's work and makes the prayer a "thanks-giving" for the supper itself, which is bizarre liturgically. It was originally planned for LSB to include a form of the Canon of St. Basil (Byzantine), but the committee backed-out of that idea due to fear of upsetting the Synod at large... truly unfortunate, I believe. The Worship Supplement (CPH 1969) has a better example of Eucharistic Prayer in the three forms: Culto Cristiano, Cambridge, Apostolic Tradition of Hypolytus. That's the LCMS inheritance.. (whether or not acknowledged) The ALC/LCA heritage has the Service Book and Hymnal (1958; predecessor to the LBW) and the Great Thanksgiving of Dr. Luther Reed. Also a gold-standard for American Lutheran canons.

Lutheran Concordia Lutherans Confessional Lutheran Evangelical Augsburg Catholic Evangelical Catholic Orthodox Lutheran But personally, I prefer “the One True and Holy Apostolic Catholic and Orthodox Church.”

As interesting and as productive as a dialogue on this may be, it still means nothing if the gospel is not agreed upon. And to be honest, whenever I see "dialogue with Rome," it almost always results in the other party conceding to Rome. That is troubling. Far too often, dialogue with Rome is seen by them as a way of undoing the Reformation.

Here's an interesting conversation to have with Catholics: when the Lord's Supper is offered about 90% in attendance at a mass only take the bread and never drink the cup? why is that? it seems to me a very incomplete and unjustifiable manner to operate given their confession just before the bread and cup are offered. What say you???

Do reformed churches possess the Eucharist?

This might seem kind of nit-picky, but: There cannot be an "official Lutheran" anything. Lutheranism is an historic confession, not an organization with officials. The various Lutheran organizations and synods only speak for themselves.

9:44 starts meritum ;)

It is what Jesus said.

noice!

If representation means re-sacrificing then then it does not represent what happens in the sacrament. Jesus doesn't die every time the sacrament is administered. That is absurd as is the idea of a sacrificial lamb being sacrificed over and over. The crux of the matter if you'll pardon the pun is that a sacrifice is the work of a priest whereas the sacrament is the work of God entirely. Jesus is the priest the sacrifice and the altar of sacrifice.

The Catholic Church does not recognize Lutherans orders or liturgy as valid so I don’t see the point of this dialogue.

Here's the deal. Some years ago, at St. Rose of Lima Catholic Church I was sitting looking at a rather ugly stain glass window of an Indian girl, Kateri is her name. I spoke to Jesus in the Tabernacle i.e. the Blessed Sacrament and I said "Lord let the Indian girl pray for me." Several months later as I had just finished writing a letter to the Lord, I went out to the porch where I and my wife sat on a swing and I pondered the messages of Medjugorje and thought that it would be nice if a relative of mine would pay attention to the messages since it would bring her peace and generally good stuff. At that very moment my wife asked me "Do you smell flowers?" I said "No, what kind?" She said lilies. Well, I was hoping for roses because that is usually the odor people get when stuff happens, but sometimes lilies can also be the odor. Besides, I would not know a lily odor then or now. Well, moments after the odor incident I went into the living room and noticed the bottle of holy oil we had been using looked different. It was quite low as we had been using it for some time to anoint ourselves or the children when ill or for this or that, just the day before to anoint my wife's hand which was deeply cut by a kitchen accident. Anyway, the bottle of oil which was on the mantel next to a statue of the Sacred Heart, looked different and upon examination the bottle was full, it was only perhaps 1/3 full the day before. So, it turns out the day this happened was the feast of Kateri the Lily of the Mohawks. I had always liked the story in the book of kings where the oil never ran out, it appealed to my nature. So on the feast of a Catholic Saint for whom I asked Jesus in the Tabernacle for her prayers, the Lily of the Mohawks, my wife got the scent of lilies and I got the oil multiplied all with perfect timing having finished a letter to the Lord, while contemplating the BVM's little visit in the Balkans. Now, of course there are more things: My mother saw the veins and capillaries in the Blessed Sacrament and on one particular day at mass when she had lost her pyx she got it back at mass. The antiphon at that mass was "the angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him" So indeed the angel does. Keeping in mind that I have no power of miracles, only God does, and I do not advise others about such things, but only relate my experiences because the hour is late and while Peter's Barque is in poor repair, it far exceeds treading water in the land of the pope as self. So, here is some more: Now there are more miracles, ones where the sun in the sky is blotted out by what looks a lot like the Blessed Sacrament, a round disc. It forms in front of the sun and from around it gold and rose colors often display, similar to a monstrance. But the disc itself seems to move, it gyrates a little so that you can see it is in front of the sun, it blots the sun out of the sky so you can look at it. This miracle of the sun we (my wife and others) received in December of 1987 in Medjugorje while on pilgrimage there, we got it at the top of cross mountain and I asked the Lord in His mercy for the miracle and He relented. Cheap praise the Lord prayer did not work, only an authentic appeal to His mercy did it. After receiving the miracle of the sun it was late in the day and a long climb down the mountain, the tour guide said not wot worry we would take it with us. The remainder of our time there is was clouded over, no sun to be seen. Upon our arrival at home back in the US we wondered. Could we still see the miracle? Yes indeed, not only that, we have prayed with others and they too could see it. We do not attempt it at noon, but later in the day, although we often catch it in the corner of our eye at other times. It can be quite very bright so I do not advise others to seek after this miracle per se, but perhaps if one is a pilgrim one may ask the Lord for it and He will do what He will do, or not do. Frankly I attribute His generosity of the miracle of the sun to Mother Mary, He has a hard time saying no to her and He wants people to love her as He does. You know the queen in the Davidic kingdom is the queen mother - right? I have to say that the one Protestant we prayed with was rather taken aback by it all, she was a tad shocked I would say, her Catholic husband not so much, just happy to have the grace of a miracle. We get the miracle of the sun to this very day. I for my part would urge everyone to become Catholic, for at mass the veil of time is turned back and one is indeed present at Calvary and one is to offer oneself as Jesus did. You see that is how we fill up that which saint Paul says is lacking in the sacrifice of Christ, the only thing Christ could not do was our personal offering to the Father. You see you need a priest to confect the Blessed Sacrament, and the Blessed Sacrament is truly Christ as He said in the scripture: real food. That is why He is reserved in the Tabernacle and that is why Catholics have died for the Blessed Sacrament. He even heals sore throats at communion as he did for me one day out of the blue. As for various "teachings" within medieval times in the Catholic Church. I think the video's author mixes confused teachers and outright heretics in the mix of what he mistakenly labels as Catholic. You see the faith is unchanged. Understanding may deepen but guys like Berengarius or Monika Hellwig etc. are not teaching Catholic things. You can always find examples of that, many in high places even today. The irony is that actual Catholic know what the teachings are and these so-called teachers are basically a lot like Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden - confused at best, but only Catholic to non-Catholics. One can consult the catechism for pretty explicit teachings. The hour is late, answer the call for unity prayed by Christ in the garden. In that prayer He explicitly invoked the hierarchy of the Godhead, His mystical body requires a hierarchy in reflection of the Trinity, there is to be a visible head of the church and a hierarchy on earth, it reflects the nature of God in His mystical body. Just as in marriage there is a hierarchy which is to be one in both obedience and unity. Christ is the example, One with the Father, in Obedience and submission. Being God He did not grasp at it, but submitted all things to the Father, BIG TIME. So, get your collective selves in gear. The boat awaits.

Dialog with who? Pope Francis? You have to be kidding. Have they rescinded Trent? Have they embraced faith alone? Our unity is in Christ, not Antichrist.

The real issues is getting over 500 years ago. Rome isn't 500 years ago. Lutheran's need to get over 500 years ago. The American Lutheran's of Concordia are obsessed with 500 years ago. Truth

Sweet Mother of God, I am only a little over 6 minutes into this video and I am already confused as to the various sects of this whole protestant experiment thing, and that is just among the Lutherans or 'Lutherans" or whatever. I already know from watching Anglican Unscripted that it's totally nuts over there. I mean it seems like navel gazing into minute sects all of whom disagree quite fundamentally, and nobody is in charge among Anglicans or "Anglicans" or whatever. I shall watch further to see what I may glean from the video. Perhaps I may learn something other than the tragic mess that screwed up a Lutheran uncle of mine as he saw his church devolve into crazy; the man was damaged by it all. He's dead now, so, he's Catholic at last ;)

65 percent of RC in America don't believe in Transubstantiation. Probably alot of Priest as well. We have to move past 1500s terms. Aquinas will put you in a comma.

No peace with Rome.