Andrew is one of the great permaculture educators on the planet. Permaculture is based on how humans can meet their needs while enhancing, rather than destroying, the environment. The fundamental ethic is not about competition or domination, but about caring for other people and the Earth. This way of relating to the world is essential if we and our fellow beings are going to make it through the Great Simplification.
I know nothing about permaculture, but I pay attention to how people make me feel when they speak. Mr. Millison has inspired me to learn more about permaculture and the philosophy behind it. I will take a big dose of inspiration any day, and that isn't the same as hopium! Thank you both for this conversation.
Welcome to permaculture. Geoff Lawton said all the problems in the world can be solved in a garden. You are about to find a myriad of solutions you never knew existed.
@@Milkshakman his one straw revolution was one of the first books I read that combined ecology, natural processes and farming. Great read long before I knew about permaculture.
I live on a homestead that practices permaculture design principles and the benefits in terms of not only food production but positive environmental impact are easy to see. Thank you for promoting this.
I've noticed that the people who work in permaculture are some of the most optimistic people I've seen (who simultaneously acknowledge our biophysical realities). I really appreciated his advice and answers to personal questions at the end. I'm a civil engineer by degree but absolutely hated that field and most of my skills are a jack of all trades mishmash of automotive, machining, welding, and fabricating etc.. I often feel lost on how I can make myself useful in the future but he helped alleviate some of my anxiety when he said work on developing yourself and the jobs of the future will land as they shall. Thanks for this episode Nate, it assured me that even though I'm no green thumb and have poor social skills and can't find a community I jive with, that I'm still on a worthwhile path while I continue to develop a wide variety of skills.
Those skills you have will be incredibly useful in the world of tomorrow. Things break all the time, if buying something new is no longer an easy option, skills like yours will have great value.
We are optimistic because we understand what can be fixed. My wife's grandfather planted fruit trees that we enjoy, and I plant fruit and nut trees my grandchildren will enjoy. I told my sons as we worked on a 3 acre permaculture sight that this is just the first, we will do one for each of their children and grandchildren. My sons are 12 and 14 but understand generational wealth building. We can not help but be rooted and grounded to our place on the land and in nature.
The real irony is that the vast network of individuals working on supportive, sustainable life styles around the globe, is perpetually undermined by relatively small cadres of rich and power people who control the whole show. Personal enrichment to obscene levels, not the general prosperity and viability of the whole enterprise, is their raison d'être. While they win their personal battles, the war is being lost for us all. I salute the wisdom and benign intentions of Andrew Millison. I wish his good qualities were universal traits.
All the educational information I need to start is on RU-vid for free. Nobody is stopping my permaculture projects. The only individual stoping you is you. Get a job, buy a marginal lot not suitable for building (flood zone, washout, steep hill, etc...) for cheap and every week buy a fruit or nut tree and plant it. In three years you will have your permaculture site. I know, I have done it without tones of money.
@@johnowens5342You need control of the watershed in your area. Somebody is stopping you from getting control of the watershed in your area so you're not able to do everything you need to do to survive
Great interview. I received my my first Permaculture certificate from Scott Pitman about 15 years ago, who was one of the great Permaculture instructors and a mentor of mine. I currently implement the design principles as a contractor in home design and mechanical system design in the southwest US. Much of what I do revolves around home scale domestic water systems , minimizing external energy inputs, and the recycling of water and waste to be used as a nutrient input for indoor food production grown in a micro climate . The impetus for my focus on indoor food production within a home comes from experiencing the current ecological crisis first hand regionally through repeated fires, droughts or floods, Although I am in awe when I see large scale ecological success stories, and although I still observe and design around the flow of water on the land and work with the native landscape, the last 10 years of increasing elemental extremes has led me to question whether what has worked for thousands of years on a natural landscape will be resilient enough to be reliable in the years to come, which has been the biggest driver of my current work.
You did it again, Nate! As a cynical old "boomer" (sincere apologies for my generational "deficiency" ) I have to say that this presentation has provided me with an unexpected glimmer of hope. Thanks for that!
This episode was a dream come true. Thanks so much. Andrew is such a great communicator of Permaculture systems approaches. If you were thinking of any other permaculture folks to talk with I think Neil Spackman who worked the Al Baydha regrneration project or Brad Lancaster who Andrew mentioned or even Rosemary Morrow from Australia who has done a lot of permaculture teaching in refugee camps would be amazing guests. I love permaculture because it is a worldview that frames human beings as a potential force for good in the world.
I've been watching Andrew's videos for years, it's awesome to see him here. Permaculture is such a deep subject. You can have big scale farms like the one of Richard Perkins, or suburban projects like the one of Angela Parkrose (parkrose permaculture). And a whole range in between. When Andrew said in the interview "if you want to work on the land, don't be an engineer"... I'm an engineer who sees the end of my employeability with the latest iterations of ChatGPT, and I'm really eager to be able to afford a house + land, but inflation is really forcing me to stay on this unsustainable treadmill for longer....
Compare the giant banyon tree in Pemgiri, India to the five artificially-watered golf course in Phoenix, Arizona! In the middle of a desert! The socio-economic symbolism is DEEP.
Earlier today I took a long, hot shower at a truck stop in the Phoenix suburb of Avondale. I've found that truck stop showers in the desert are extremely generous with their water volume compared to ones in wetter regions such as west of the Cascades in the PNW. I'm pretty sure they'd make Powell roll over in his grave.
There's almost nothing dumber than green grass golf courses in the desert. Humans are incredibly silly. Why not use the natural desert intact to make more unique golf courses that play differently than grass? It's like playing tennis on grass versus clay. Or playing golf on the linx of Scotland. Why not honor the environment and challenges provided by it instead of creating yet another manicured, architected course? Do dumb, and such a waste of water.
Awesome to see two of my favorite thought leaders in dialog. Excellent that permaculture is making a debut as part of the Great Simplification conversation.
Greetings from Huelva, Spain. Thank you Andrew and Nate for sharing. In the region I'm living in, in the south of Europe, we have had an autumn that began around the middle of last November!!! and a very mild winter. The swamps in Andalusia store little water. This week they are exactly at 29.88% of their capacity while last year they were at 34.55% the same week. Autumn is the rainy season here. Compared to the average of the last 10 years, this week, swamps have less than half the water they had. The aquifers of the Doñana National Park and Doñana Natural Park are so low, that in 2022 they have been censused 87.500 acuatic birds, far from the 470.000 from 2021. We really hope the rain will visit us this spring. Cheers Javier Bernat
I stopped buying strawberries and other fruit from Spain when I learned that illegal farms are tolerated in the swamp areas, taking the water from the swamps. It is not just the missing rain, it is also human greed that amplifies the problem. If this does not stop, Spain will sadly be the first European desert soon.
currently at my farm in Colombia putting all these concepts to work. its very rewarding. if anybody feels called to do this in a mid scale level don't hesitate to reach out.
Excellent interview. I especially appreciate the focus on what we can do. There is a need to understand issues, but my major focus is on thinking and actions I can take. Thanks for the work both of you, gentlemen, do. Peace.
This has been such an inspiring and essential episode. Resonated with many of the ideas: Watershed democracy - the hope in the younger generations to lead the radical changes we need - the "RU-vid University" - the tips Andrew gave to align to our best potentials - his hypothetical use of the magic wand!... Thank you Nate for your excellent podcast, it is definitely part of the global YT University!
Loved listening to this one - as somebody who is doing a mix of permaculture and regenerative (syntropic) agroforestry in a village in Maharashtra/India. Andrew's observation about the watershed being the natural boundary applies to our village as well. I had not realized it. Gave me a lot of ideas about communal work that could be revived. I just so missed Andrew being here - next time I get an invite to one of his sessions, I will definitely join!
Nate has set the stage extremely well by detailing the limits and now looking at the possible alternatives. Not this civilization but another that seems very exciting!
Our civilization has adapted and changed as we have grown as a people. From settlers to plantations to cities to advanced agriculture and now our awareness of ecological impact and long term sustainability put us in a great place to begin to transition to permaculture. So yes permaculture is for this civilization also.
What a brilliant chat between two great minds. Andrew is a living legend and his channel is amazing. Keep up the excellent work Andrew and i truely look forward to your Tour of India!
A lot of comments on this topic seem to be people gatekeeping permaculture and complaining that this interview doesn't dig deep enough into the concepts. I would say thats partly because its clear this is new for Nate and he's working to get his mind wrapped around a topic that is new for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he does another permaculture interview and does a much deeper dive than this interview initially is able to pursue. Amd while David Holmgren would be amazing as a guest for that sort of discussion Millison is no slouch. Let's give this interview the credit it deserves for introducing a new idea to this audience, many of whom will hopefully go on to learn more and be educated and prepared for another video on this topic.
Permaculture is one of the main tools we have for navigating the future. Most of the patterns in permaculture come from indigenous cultures that learned to exist as part of nature, co-creating the conditions for life so that they and their non--human relations could survive and thrive for 10's of thousands of years.
Thank you for acknowledging that permaculture is a tool. It isnt a quick fix. But it is a viable set of ideas to help us move through the great simplification. And if we can preserve this methodology through the worse times, I have no doubt it will present the most coherent framework for organizing human societies.
Though India is awakining to permaculture concepts but a few locations have been for 60 years but o ly recently have they awaken. Even with old systems are reviving those systems. So glad the Paani foundation Ranindra sign and so many others had to fight the frozen culture problems
I enjoyed this talk - thank you. I wonder whether you've ever interviewed anyone about geoengineering? IMNSHO, this is an essential subject that must be addressed in order to improve our common future. Jim Lee would be great?
An incredibly wonderful and Helpful podcast Nate and have subscribed to Andrew’s RU-vid and Shared to All Our Aotearoa government could Learnt from this and connect with India more 🕊🌏❤️
One of my favorite episodes so far! Absolutely love the idea of watershed democracy. Political boundaries that match the natural boundaries? Makes too much sense.
I have a 3 acre permaculture site. Over 100 fruit and nut trees and a large garden. I have plums, pluots, persimmons, peaches, pears, apples, figs, mulberries, cherries, olives, pineapple guava, grapes, kiwis, hazelnuts, chestnuts, pecans, mammoth hickory and black berries. I have also built a pond and stoked it with fish. This is completely real and can be done.
@@johnowens5342 Agreed! Ive been on the same acre for 17 years. I've established a Camelia sinensis agroforestry system: tea, mulberry, honeylocust, bamboo, elaeagnus, chestnut, hazelnut, rabbits, and chickens ...and I'm an avid treatment-free beekeeper.
On the subject of shit, did you notice the importance Vandana Shiva attributes to cow shit. We need more of that, not less, like the Davos people are saying.
Thanks, Nate. I really support this new direction toward constructive solutions, on both macro and micro scales. Definitely go to India and do the film with Vandana. (And get your shots, babe. We want you around and kicking for as long as you're willing.)
Fantastic episode! You and your guest speaker are very inspirational. I wish everyone would have a listen! Will share on FB for starters! Also, I have been a student of RU-vid University, watching lots of videos on permaculture and alternative living. Thank you Nate, for your program and all the great guests you have had on your show.
CFB Greenwood in NS was chosen as the site for an airforce base, because of its fog free days. No thought was given to an aquifer now covered with runways.
1:18:42 This is worthy of an entire podcast (not episode, but PODCAST) unto itself. Regarding ayahuasca: I've seen entheogens turn narcissists into even bigger narcissists; hallucinogens are no panacea. Psychedelics are beautiful tools when responsibly employed but they ain't gonna save the world. I think the "rock bottom" scenario is a more powerful catalyst. We are rapidly approaching bedrock at the moment. Regarding A.I.: I dream of a wetware/A.I. symbiont that will extend the perception of organic minds. This may be a necessary step in cosmic evolution.
India, a great cradle of civilisation, may also be the cradle of restoration . If there are as many smart people in India as I have met in Australia there is hope.
I listened to this while tilling the garden, so I don't have my usual point-by-point criticisms. However, this was a good podcast and Millison is obviously doing the good work of making change. To my criticisms of permaculture: 1) I am against design in general and permaculture design specifically. The reason is because it is Form Follows Function (as Toby Heminway used to say). Evolution by natural selection is Function Follows Form. There are random mutations in morphology that prompts adaptive function. For more on this see Stephen Jay Gould. Going down the rabbit holes of design and form follows function leads to things like Intelligent Design, which is just crap and invented by a researcher at the Discovery Institute as a rightwing political tool. By the way, Millison starts out by defining permaculture as a design protocol, which is good. I have gone around and around with the permatrolls on social media since 2006, and he at least he is clear about what permaculture is. I addressed the design aspect in a chapter of my second book. The chapter title is: The Flaw in Permaculture is Design. [Hints for Managing Collapse (2014:259ff)] 2) I don't like the multilevel marketing aspect. This has been going on since at least 1975 when the term was first registered. One has to take a design course before one can call themself a permaculturalist and the people who are making money on the multilevel marketing are quick to point this out and keep people in line. 3) I don't like the taboo on eclecticism. As Patrick Whitefield said in Permaculture in a Nutshell (1993), "You cannot pick and choose. You must buy the whole program." When I went to a class with Toby Hemenway, I asked him about this and he agreed. I prefer trying things and picking and choosing what works. Some permaculture ideas, like keyhole beds, are good. Other ideas that permaculture has adopted are sometimes listed as invented by them, for example living on the land over time and seeing what it can do and what it needs. Millison's stories about India were quite fascinating. I was reminded of Sir Albert Howard being sent out to India by the British government to teach the locals how to farm. He ended up learning from them.
There was a time in the lifespan of America where you could drink from almost any stream. Today, that would be an unhealthy proposition. Even our processed municipal water supplies are suspect. I live in Ohio where, not to many decades ago, the Cuyahoga River near Cleveland was ON FIRE! "Misplaced priorities" should be our national motto.
Nice to have an episode like this that presents solutions, though I agree with Nate first step should be defining the problems. Also my thanks to Andrew Millison for mentioning Peter Zeihan. Both Nate and Peter take a systems level approach. Peter also sees a great simplification coming though he doesn't call it specifically that, and he identifies different drivers (that will cause a simplification).
I think that Permaculture has a place in The Great Simplification, but ultimately small farmers are the ones that can feed many people (not everyone wants to be a farmer), and that does require row cropping (potatoes, corn, squash) and other traditional farming that can be regenerative. Chris Smaje talks a lot about this in his book, "A small farm Future" and would be a great guest.
Permaculture, as was said, is an analytical framework and design methodology guided by observation and concrete objectives. Lots of people who practice permaculture use row cropping systems. I think people miss that most of the issues we face are issues of scale. Row cropping would not be hundred acre monocrops. But that doesnt exclude small monocrops as necessary for production efficiency.
Nate, could you please invite to your next podcast professor Charles A.S Hall? He is such a great scientists and also has good data on peak Oil and Biophysical economies
@@stevebreedlove9760 Absolutely, what surprised me the most about him is that he is a systems ecologist. I thought he was an engineer, Charlie is truly a systems thinker.
Hey Nate I follow most of your stuff I would sure love to hear your take on let's say the stuff, Dane Wigington is talking about Geoengineering. Cheers
I think it is getting late, very late. I believe that Greta Thunberg and Manchester University Professor Kevin Anderson among others are getting it right by choosing not to fly again. I too have foresworn flying, and for three years now, no longer own an internal combustion engine. I am on the grid again now, after a three year hiatus, but not nearly the profligate user I once was, and have incorporated solar. Also doing things in general much more simply, or in a lot of cases just eliminating things. I don't think that my actions will make a difference, but I find it easier to simply walk my talk. No dissonance kicking up a ruckus in my head needing quelled or rationalized. The question that each of us needs must answer, is if not now, when? When will we decide to make sacrifices for the greater good?
Luckily I hate flying and have no need to so I don't. On the other foot, I've always loved to drive. I send lots of carbon skyward daily by depressing the pedal of an 18-wheeler. When I was a teenager in the 70s I marveled at my ability to make a car accelerate by merely pressing softly on a small pedal. It was like having a superpower. I'm grateful for the deeper appreciation of that superpower Nate's podcast has given me.
Yes, the flying is a huge problem. Anderson is right. We have to put our money where our mouth is. Meanwhile, in order for Greta to sail from the US to Europe two sailors had to fly the US to accompany her 😮
Sounds like putting on a masks alone in a car when you know you don't have COVID because you ended every human contact you had. If the solution has no impact then it can not be defined as a solution. I'm not the type of person that non solutions bring me comfort or quell my mind nor do I talk a talk that requires of me living non solutions for consistency. Your question is wrong so you have arrived at a non solution end. How about doing something beneficial? Last time the seas rose and the earth warmed plants did great. You could try permaculture.
@@johnowens5342 if environmental campaigners at any level are not willing to commit to some loss of lifestyle privileges, no one will take them seriously. It's memetic.
How Human Nature Works Human nature is the desire to receive, also called “desire to enjoy,” and it functions by receiving what is beneficial to itself and rejecting what is harmful. Everything in our lives is built upon this calculation where we first try to distance ourselves from harm, and then seek how to draw ourselves closer to what is beneficial. Human nature also includes a multilayering of systems that work simultaneously on still, vegetative, animate and human levels. One of those systems is our bodily one, which operates involuntarily. If our bodies are healthy, then they know what is good for them and draw that goodness to themselves. After the bodily system, there is the emotional system, which also functions relatively according to instinct. From the emotional system, we move to the mind, and from the mind to the intellect, and so on. That is, we have systems over systems that concurrently work on receiving what is beneficial and rejecting what is harmful. Such is human nature and the essence of our lives. Our every desire, thought and action operates according to the calculation, “How can we receive what is most beneficial to us and reject what is harmful?”
I’ve got 160 acres of heavily forested land in Northern California on a ridge with NO topsoil, it’s fascinating how so much comes out of so little, is that permaculture?
@@nonexistence5135 it’s amazing up there because it’s loaded with tan oak which is a large food producer, unfortunately lumber companies hate them because they shade out the conifers , but I want to develop a strategy that enhances the animal kingdom and not necessarily the human society
What kind of educational background would I need to teach this type of course at a community college? Is it possible to have this kind of career in academia? Love to get your advice. Thank You!
My reaction to this blog surprised me. I was almost immediately annoyed (and I mostly love your work). WHY?, I asked myself. I guess it started with the very word '"geomorphology". I was expecting something better and clearer. A bucket of water and a shovel (or hoe) is all that is needed to teach contour irrigation. OR even just a lump of clay, a toothpick and an eyedropper. It is NOT hard, and yet there was all that talk around it without actually teaching it. Toward the end I liked some of what was said about your backyard and the RU-vid university, but I find the idea of Andrew flying around the world to look at what he himself with his students could be doing where they are standing to be inconsistent with the love of Gaia. Finally, again and again, when you ask the question how can we change the culture, you and your guests seem to be"humanities blind." -- creative, narrative literature. Would someone please write the right novel -- or even song? Sorry if I rant, but to say nothing would be dishonest and would help no one.
I should amend this comment to assure you that I agree with just about everything said. My problem is probably pure impatience. This stuff has been known for some 50 years already and I think it is going to take dramatic action for anything to actually get done. Decentralism and voluntary simplicity is really what it will take. All that "village" talk was great. So, how do you get people to leave the cities and form new villages as soon as possible?
Watersheds are... obvious as the organizing principle as they generally are also bioregion boundaries. This is basic permaculture. This is organizing principle not only for design, but for governance. Regenerative Governance is organized exactly this way. Because it's obvious. Or should be.
Why don't you just hook up with David Holgrem, the co-originater of Permaculture and have a roots based dicussion about more than one a less a 'hybrid x-pert'...as my philosophy mate used to say-"Go back to the Roots!,... ya know, before franchising!"-
Population: Yes. Obvious. 12 billion in a simplified future with regenerative (permacultural) systems. As Andrew says, when regen ag is *systemic*, you not only get equal or higher production by weight but **also** 40 - 60% more nutrients by weight. BOE calculation around 2009.
Have you ever heard the sound of insects in a compost heap? Yeah I know, it's hard to capture a good sound and there's not many examples online. Some work backwards at 40. Apparently it makes for better predictive power, canny and patience.
Thank you for the learning. I am among the YT university members. Please look more into David Holgrem. I must disagree with both of you regarding the Boomers as I am that. Let's get real, the bottom line here is Shell, Exxon, Monsanto, Bayer , Corteva, Cargill, on and on....their $$$ and influence in our corrupt legislatures are the real obstacles here. Please don't blame the Boomers. This is uncharacteristically short-sighted
Come on man. Get yourself a copy of Mollison's big book and read chapter 14. Just like Savory's book, it's only been out for fifty years now. Get with the program already if you want to talk about all the problems in the world.
it sounds like permaculture is kind of like communism in that it is an overall plan that takes into consideration multiple integrated ecological systems? Isn't that the idea of communism? If the plan is followed then the most people possible receive a modest but adequate existence and there is appropriate sustainability and productivity? The communism ideology is more about sharing and equitable distribution i.e. economics. But permaculture would be more about ecology? I have only listened to a few minutes so far, but it seems like we've been down this road already. this road is called the road of logic, road of reason, road of critical thinking and the road of evidence based practices. What is logic? We assume that we all would agree on what logic is, but we don't. Markets are logical for some but not others. Reason? Markets are reasonable for some but not for others. Critical thinking? Markets don't care about critical thinking. Evidence based? Markets are all about evidence, but market evidence is different for every market participant, every consumer, laborer, serf, investor, bureaucrat. In our society and in societies that call themselves democracies like India, the free market rules rule. I don't think it is hyperbole to call this the religion. Basically state religion. Fundamentalism, free market fundamentalism. I know, we are post enlightenment, we aren't supposed to believe in the big muscular caucasion hand sweeping down from the clouds and sorting things out, yet that is what is driving the free market fundamentalism military crusades that is keeping as much of the world a free market as possible.
Hay Nate, I grow seven varieties of garlic and will be planting ten acres of hazelnuts, reclaiming land that had been clearcut. I am not sure where you guys are going with this permaculture stuff, But I will say it is the old people that know about this shit, We work with 8 to 16-year-olds teaching how to take care of the land. This is not new and you guys make it out to be a great discovery and you intellectualize it to the point that it becomes impotent, But cheers and thanks.
@@stevebreedlove9760 Sure I get it Just get on your jet, and fly to India to find out how to. Design systems are created by intellectuals, not by real humans living on the earth.
Seeing a lot of hopium in the comments section. I for one, am disappointed that Nate clearly caved in to the hopium peddlers in this episode. He questions were pretty tame. I expected less coddling and more hard questions. The speaker made a lot of unsubstantiated claims about India and ignored the reality of their climate, political, toxin, and population realities.
Where's the hopium? Do you even know what that means? Or is that just your knee jerk reaction to anything that's focused on positively addressing the issues? You like to spread the message that there's no point in trying to do any good?
I am in the permaculture space. It isnt hopium if you dont want it to be. I definitely see a lot of folks interested because they want to have a less impactful lifestyle. I am presenting for and Intro to Permaculture course in a few weeks and I frame it as "only way out is through." Meaning how do we survive the coming contraction. How can we heal land, heal ourselves, or communities and how can we provide for ourselves in a way that honors reciprocity and limits. My work is firmly rooted in socioeconomic and biophysical realities. It isnt hopium. It is a syncretic discipline that uses science but also recognizes how science contributed to the current predicament.
Travelling all over the planet, especially India, to help them deal with problems exacerbated, if not caused by... climate change. I hear this criticism all the time when deniers are talking about Greta, and I dismiss it as bullsh*t from the ecologically ignorant, blind if you will, but to hear this guy's excitement, "it's incredible, mind-blowing, crazy" over his trips, it's sickening.
I have to push back on this interpretation of Permaculture. Not once did I hear the most fundamental principle of what Permaculture is all about. There were lengthy explanations of watershed boundaries and historically and culturally embedded practices that were and are more productive. Beneficial outcomes, lost knowledge, yadda yadda yadda. Andrew likes the sound of his own voice and has I'm sure lots of great things to say but slow down man and stop virtue-signaling with references to indigenous ingenuity or the self aggrandizing of your efforts. The Great Simplification of Permaculture is that it is all about OBSERVATION. I know what I'm on about here as I have myself been a teacher and practitioner of Permaculture for almost 30+ years and the fundamental best outcomes of practicing Permaculture were not addressed at all.
What about the part about Arizona where you can observe permaculture techniques with quick feedback as the green from the plants is in stark contrast to the arid landscape. Or the boundaries of watershed because that's what has been observed over the generations. Just because he didn't repeat the word observe 1000 times like some basic PDC doesn't mean that his interpretation isn't based on observation.
@@bobmathieson987 so what is your point exactly? That this entire interview, the messaging, the examples, are tainted or incorrect because of his lack of focus on explicitly stating observation is the core? That's an odd takeaway for somebody claiming to teach permaculture.
I hate to be contrary, but I listened to the first 25 minutes of this talk and it strikes me as some kind of joke, to see if you can say almost nothing meaningful and get people to think they are being enlightened.
I tend to agree. If Nate could get David Holmgren, co-originator of Permaculture, on the podcast we might get a very valuable - and perhaps surprising - conversation.
