Angel Talk || s3e18 "Double or Nothing" 

Gunn trading his soul for a truck was about survival for his sister and crew. He didn't expect to survive to pay up

Is selling his soul for a truck silly? Yes, but it highlights Gunn's state of mind about life. It's things like this that makes Gunn's development so interesting when you know where he ends up.

Pretty sure Gunn wasn’t originally planning to break up with Fred like that. That just became plan B when she started to catch on to why he was trying to give her the best day.

I lost it when I'm In Love With My Car started playing.

Your concern that Angel might be made so happy by Conner that he could lose his soul was something I heard from other fans as well, and wondered about, until someone explained to me why that could never happen. According to them, once you become a parent (and I'm not a parent, so I can only take their word for this), no matter how happy your child makes you, it can never be perfect happiness because you're always worried for them, always concerned that something will go wrong for them. So as long as Conner is alive, Angel can never be perfectly happy. As I said, I'm not a parent so I can't be sure if that's true, but it does make sense to me.

22:00 - I've long thought it would've been fun to walk on to the Angel set just to shout "David" and see what happens. Goodman, Grossman, Boreanaz, Greenwalt, Fury, probably another dozen I can't think of right now.

Fred's "WELL NOT ANY MORE I GUESS!!" Is so fucking adorable.

The last shot of the episode is Acceptance: Angel disassembling Conner's crib. It's the saddest thing ever. 😥

The casino is concerned because Gunn is in love with Fred...love means you give everything you have to your paartner, including your soul technically...and your partner does the same. So the casino aren't happy about that. that is why in a wedding we say "to have and to hold for all eternity" and "everything i am is yours" that sort of thing. when people are scared...they get angry...when people get angry...they push people away...it's a natural response...Gunn was doing what he felt was best.

I'm really not an expert on these things, but I believe Groo is classified as a Himbo, not a Twink.

i keep seeing people saying "yeah well Wesley was wrong before with the translations of a prophecy before so he should have known better" that's just it though, he DID know better. I think his Shanshu mistranslation was running through his mind over and over during him translating the Sajhan fake prophecy, and he knew that if Angel hurt Connor, either by his own hand or by accident, that it'd destroy Angel completely, so he did the only thing he could think of, removing Connor from the equation. The father can't kill the son if there is no son to be killed

Alley:”He’s not the talking type.” Definitely not anymore.

David Fury approves of the number of Davids on this show.

Couldn’t believe he would trade his soul for a truck? Now I don’t think you would actually sell your soul for “Baby” from Supernatural… but you’d probably consider it for a minute.

21:10 Gunn didn't think he'd live long enough to have to pay, He was hunting vampires so good chance he'd be dead by then.

In a _Simpsons_ "Treehouse of Horror" episode Homer sold his soul for a donut; it turned out the sale was void because he had already given his soul to Marge.

Lorne is EXACTLY the person Wesley should have discussed this with. Big plot hole.

2:08 I think some reasons Was didn't tell anyone is 1 Angel could find out. 2 They might not believe him. 3 He knew that if he took the baby Angel wound never forgive him, He knew he was giving up his friend and everything else but he was still willing to do it. He didn't want anyone else to have to make this choice it was destroying him so he couldn't put them though that.

TBF if was a pretty cool truck, even before Gunn and his crew pimped it out into a demon killing machine.

I mean, the truck saved quite a few LA street kid lives (and Gunn, hero that he is, was willing to lose his life for theirs) 🛻🧛‍♂️

That cut to "I'm in love with my car" was absolute gold!

26:40 He was trying to make sure she wouldn't follow him and get killed by the gambling demons. I think he knew when he died she'd work it out and then they'd both have one good day to remember, But she'd believe it long enough to stay safe.

There's a rumor that one of those demons in the casino was Ben Affleck.

There’s a lot of people who watch the shows who think that a moment of true happiness is much easier to achieve than it actually is. Like when people thought he would lose his soul sleeping with Darla. Did they really think that was true happiness? Angel achieved perfect happiness once, without the burden of knowing that being happy could make him lose his soul. Now that he knows being happy could make him lose his soul, I imagine perfect happiness is even harder to achieve. It’s not that the “I would never hurt someone I loved” line isn’t ironic, because I think it’s meant to be: we know that Angel can become Angelus and hurt people he loves, he did it in Buffy. But I genuinely don’t think he believes he can be happy enough to lose his soul again.

I always hoped it was an Enchanted Truck, that never needed Gas, or to be repaired.

Fred has clearly watched far too many Soap Operas (me too it seems) where having Leukaemia and breaking up with someone to protect them are common tropes

An interesting concept here in Double Or Nothing. We have Gunn as an impetuous teenager does a deal to sell his soul for a truck. I think what the writers were trying to show was when we are really young we can make terrible decisions that can have life long repercussions. Great scene in the casino when the tensions builds and Angel only draws a 3 card, adding to the comedy. Cordy stabbing his hand and Angel cutting his head off was brilliant, only for the gangster to grow another head. Great comedy at the end too, when Angel says 'does anyone else owe this guy' and the whole casino takes revenge. All in all a pretty decent entertaining episode.

21:23 Yes, Alley. FUCK YESS!!! I was not expecting that.

Yes, I think Wes should have spoken to someone else about the prophecy, but then miscommunication was the problem for both sides. No one bothered to let Wes know about the conversation with Sajjan about him making the fake prophecy...or about Wolfram and Hart putting Connor's blood in Angel's food supply. Wes was kept out of the loop, and therefore still carried out his plan because he didn't know all the context.

Honestly I thought it was an Alley edit but no it’s actually in the episode, Charles Gunn walking towards the casino with Gangsters Paradise playing in the background, the whitest black song you ever heard! You ain’t slick Gunn my mom knows the words to that song 😂

As someone who was critical of your reaction to Angel's behavior, I want to be clear I fully understand Wesley's behavior. I also don't know what I'd have done in his position either. Bottom line tho is he harmed someone's child. While I don't excuse Angel's response, I expect it. He came between a bear and her cub.

And the quote of the episode is Her name is "I'm a real woman, not a stick figure." Get the picture? 😂

Wesley's character arc from here is *chefs kiss*

Watch order between shows doesn't matter this season.

0:47 I couldn't agree more with that question. Where Do We Go From Here?

Oh my God, that fucking Queen edit!

I guess they were poking fun at the idea that Gunn was doing some thug type of deal by having him strut to that song Gansta's paradise...otherwise it comes off cringy and stereotypical of the decade. For him, he was in a state of mind of feeling he would be in this lifestyle with a short life span and didn't think he'd ever get to enjoy a long life.

Like others have Said, Gunn was just lying his A** off to try to keep Fred from trying to rescue him when pretending didnt work anymore. He went from being selfish trying to give himself the best last day on earth by trying to be selfless in convincing Fred that he wasnt worth missing--of course it didn't work and it was still f***** up of him. The part that bugs me with this episode is where, even with the ability to grow a second uterus head I still think Gunn could have taken him or at least his crew could have. Had Gunn actually sold his soul for a truck and nothing more than i would say him and Dean Winchester may have a bit in common. Also, Alley, feel free to use as many of the references as you want, just never forget what came first ;) On a more serious note: The therapy nerd in me just has to say that bringing up past issues, especially in a fight is quick way to ruin relationships. Might want to check out Gottman or the Imago dialogue to help with communication problems.

I feel bad for Wes but from a parental perspective, he essentially killed Angel's kid by sending him to an extreme hell dimension, intentions mean jackshit at that point. I think Angel's reaction was actually pretty subdued considering!

Yeah I'm more on the "Wes was wrong" side. At the very least he has to tell someone about it, notably Angel (it's not like he's full blown Angelus or something). Taking a prophesy at face value is just dumb and we've already seen Wes mess up a translation in season one. So his heart was in the right place but he handled it about as poorly as you could.

I'm watching this while my own lil Irish American baby boy is sleeping, these episodes definitely hit different now than when I first watched this as a young teen. Was that Coolio song really in this episode or did she add that in? Either way well edited episode

I agree with wes based on hs state of mind at the time. Same as gunn and the truck...

"reminded me of Twilight.." 😑 😂

i know what you mean, but i do get a bit uncomfortable when youre talking about angel getting a moment of true happiness with the baby...

I never warmed to this episode. It wasn't quite a bottom rung or anything, but I never really thik about it much when not watching it, either. Not sure if you're really supposed to. Gunn doesn't and wouldn't have either if it hadn't of came back into his life in the same way Giles's Eyghon past caught back up with him.