Animal Death Prior to the Fall 

At least to me, when I read this, it seems like all animals were eating plants... Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

So if animal death wasn't problematic to God in genesis why does he reverse it in the millennium , the lion will eat straw and Lie down with the lamb etc.,?

I would like to see this issue discussed, not debated, among several evangelical theologians, rather than with just one.

My views are this: There were two falls, fall of Humanity (200,000 years ago) And the fall of Satan (7 BYA) On day 5 when God created marine and flying animals, Satan was already roaming the Earth, so Satan put evil in their hearts. Which explains death. A verse that always proves this is the verse: Genesis 2:5 "When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up-for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground," because on day 3 when God created plants it sounds like he covered the entire planet with plants yet this verse say no only the Garden. So what I've learned from the Bible project, that Eden was a holy place, unlike other places (hence the part when Adam and Eve were thrown out). So I believe that Earth was originally completely holy until Satan came and corrupted it. So God went and made Eden, a paradise that which he could not enter but sadly the serpant managed to get in and corrupt Adam and Eve.

Fact: No one knows how old the earth is, not even scientists!

genesis 3:17,18 seems to point to a second creation of thistles and thorns. if plant life was transformed why would that not apply to animals?

"Bambification" of our theology ! Love it - so true. People often want to hold to this " no death before the fall" idea - because the creation was "very good" - but as the speaker says it was good to accomplish God's objectives. Well done.

One thing that can help to clarify this is looking at Genesis 1:2-31 as talking about the garden only. God says in Genesis 1:25 everything was good. That was after the animals were created. There has to be a clear delineation between what was happening in the garden and what was happening outside the garden. It was a curse to be outside that garden where humans faced death. Also, consider that humans were commanded to subdue and have dominion over the earth. What is there to subdue if all is perfect? So good was the world at large; the very good was the garden. Does this make sense?

Just another way to justify evolution. Evolution is a religion that contradicts Biblical creation, to prove the Bible wrong. You cannot mix evolution in with Creation. And the changes after Adam and Eve sinned is NOT another creation or creation event. They were simply changes or consequences of sin. Death entered Creation at that time as the Bible states. The wages of sin is death. And from that point on, we needed a Savior. Christ lived a life of complete obedience to the law which no other man, woman or child had ever done. He was perfect, and only His blood could be shed to save all mankind. No other sacrifice could do that as no other sacrifice could ever be considered perfect. But we have new age preachers and scientists who are trying to mix in elements of the religion of evolution with creation to try to answer man’s questions and make sense to them, instead of relying on the Word of God. You cannot change the Word of God to fit your definitions. It doesn’t work that way. And if science is not fitting the Word, you might want to question your science. We prove scientific discovers wrong all the time. But for some, they hang on until they can change the Word to make it fit, and act like we should have seen it all along.

The Biblical definition of a living creature is that which has blood. The blood is the life (literally, soul). Plants do not have blood, and so they are not considered to be alive (or to have souls) in the biblical sense.

I use to struggle with animal death before the fall, but as I matured in my faith it became a nonissue. I still find it interesting that YECs are still struggling with-it, though. I agree with the points in this video. Thank you for this message. More people need to hear this message. This is what we need to pray about. :: We need to pray that false teachings are vanquished from the church and our hearts. This is a good ministry; I pray it becomes more popular in the American south. Thank you for this video. Great video, keep up the good work. God bless. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ with love from a nerdy Christian.

I disagree that humans were meant to live in the garden forever because of:"Gen3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken." They would not have needed to eat from the tree of life to live forever if that is how they were created. It was a spiritual death. And yes, I believe that many plants and animals died before Adam and Eve lived. Again, spiritual death for humans.

As an old creationist whom took a long deep dive through a young earth perspective before changing my view please allow me to offer a constructive critique. there are a lot of us who are on a truth seek (and all things because God is truth) and are appreciative for your perspective and educational material. However it is probably not advisable for you to start the conversation with a political categorization or stereotype as it puts your brothers and sisters in Christ in a defensive position against what good information you may have to share.

They always go to Romans 5, when in fact Romans 8 is THE TEXT that shows that "corruption" (death) did not exist before the fall. They set up Romans 5 as a strawman, while ignoring the other things that Paul said. Also, plant death is NOT viewed the same as animal death. The best argument for old earth is that the fall happened in the very beginning and that Genesis is not a comprehensive person by person account of the generations that followed Adam. If I was an old earth creationist, still currently studying this issue, I would be opposed to day-age creationism, gap theory, and progressive creationism. I would defend my belief from a genealogical and lineage stand point rather than claim that there were not 6 literal 24 hr days.

Interesting argument from the psalmist. Thank you for sharing. What about the verses that seem to imply all creatures bring herbivores in Gen 1:29 and then God allowing carnivores afterwards in Gen 9:3?

Just a thought. How did the devil take the form of a carnivore (snake) if everything was an omnivore.

What would be the purpose of tree of life? If Humans were immortal, they wouldn't need the tree of life live forever. Even if someone were to say the tree of life was all spiritual, would that meant humans died spiritually if they didnt eat from that tree? Then that would also bring up the question, was the fall about spiritual issues? Nothing seems to indicate physical unless one uses the word death to mean physical death. I think the Fall was only spiritual. Paul said death spread to Mankind as a result. What death is this? Well the Book of Romans talks HEAVILY on Spiritual death. Paul keeps saying he died in sin (stuff like that). This indicates he is telling the Romans about spiritual death as a result of the fall. Now you may use the argument from silence and say just because it doesnt say it, doesnt mean it's not there. Well, this is different than if you were talking about red blood cells for example. We have tested and found red blood cells. But for physical death, the Bible does not make a case for it as a result. Jesus reversed the effects of the fall at the cross, defeating death. Isaiah 11:20 says the new creation will still have death, but only physical. Paul calls us a new creation many times. Revelation 22 talks about those outside New Jerusalem. Those people arent those in the Lake of Fire as they would already be destroyed. These outsiders are those that exist outside the church and is the reason why the river and the trees are there in New Jerusalem...for the healing of the nations. They still sin. This is the whole point of the New Covenant. For people throughout the world to know and be healed and to cry no more because they no longer have to fear the second death. It no longer has power over us. Jesus defeated it and only people give power to it when they dont follow God. The only way, the second death can have power is if we give it power. That second death is the lake of fire where those in it are destroyed, no longer existent. This is the reason the fall of man was so detrimental. It caused a deathbound road for our souls. Physical death is merely as small as an atom compared to spiritual death. Yes, we are sad when others die (humans and some animals) but that's just how the laws of nature work. God created the universe to work the way it does. God never changes and He never changes the laws of nature. If humans didnt die before the fall, why doesnt God make Christians live forever physically? Because that's not God's character. He doesnt change the natural laws and doesnt do "magic tricks" because the spiritual status of humans or human individuals change. It's inconsistent.

Fun fact: there's no passage in genesis that suggests that death did not exist in any way shape or form prior to the fall

Your preaching a false doctrine. See Genesis 1:29-30. Plus if you believe in old earth then you’re saying the Word of God is wrong. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Thank you for sharing this! I’ve found it very interesting and reasonable. I’ve struggled with the idea of animal death before the fall, but the points made here were very solid.

The way OECs interpret I Cor. 15 is a text-book example of eisegesis. That single verse decimates their view, and so they read into the verse what they want it to say.

The great Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas, in the 13th century Summa Theologica, says that it is "utterly unreasonable" (omnino irrationale in Latin) to think that, prior to the fall of Adam, "lions ate grass." Animal ferocity and predations was, in his eyes, part of the natural order directly created by God. Theoretically, there is no difference between a Young Earth created with pre-Adamic predators and prey and an Old Earth so created. However, on a psychological level, I don't think Christianity has absorbed the profoundly shocking image of an intelligent and loving Creator who, prior to the emergence of the Adamic species, spent well over 500 million years making huge varieties of predatory and prey animals who constantly hunted down and chomped on each other, often eating each other alive (and then periodically destroying most of them in mass extinctions). What was He up to all that time? What does that indicate about His character? Of course, the volcanically world-destroying God of Revelations seems to be back in character with the God of Pre-Historical Predators. But I'll leave that to the theologians.

and God said, "Humans Be fruitful and multiply (as prey for the predator so that I may feed you to them for atonement to the Universe)."

There is no evidence for an old earth it is all to do with how the evidence is interpreted which in turn is whatever a person's bias is

Genesis 1:20-22 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth ABUNDANTLY the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth ABUNDANTLY, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. So IF there was no animal death before the fall, why would God tell the already "abundant" populations in the sea to reproduce? With no death, the animals would reproduce forever and the sea would end up overflowing with so many fish that they would eventually pile up to the point where there would be no place in the water for them. So yeah, there would have been animal death before the fall

maybe beasts ate only plants before the fall, then after the fall, they started preying on eachother. Also there was prob no violence before the fall but that doesnt mean the beasts lived forever. why would they?? they are not created in Gods image

Human death before the fall is not problematic. Human death before the fall was possible, that is why the tree of life was in the garden. God specifically told Adam and Eve to leave the garden because of the tree of life, so they do not continue to eat from it in their sin state. Adam and Eve were physical beings made from the dust of the earth. They aged naturally and most definitely felt pain to some extent. pain is a sensory indicator that you are within mortal arm or danger. When God talked about death from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God was talking about spiritual death, which combined with physical death would lead to eternal death (separation from God in the lake of fire). Do you not find it odd that they never multiplied before the fall? No child was born before the fall. The tree of life was always at arm's reach, so why multiply, the moment they were out of the garden and access to the tree of life was lost they immediately started the multiplication. time was not on their side this time.

*Well done!*

The earth isn’t 6,000 years old

maybe physical death was always part of the great order of things? I dont know. I cant quite subscribe to the literal 6 days of Creation and the rest of it. I dont dispute the order of all things, its just so intricate and incredible..from Atoms to Galaxies. I do reckon something terrible took place a very long time ago...that warped Mankind. Just think how life could be if we had no greed and selfishness. No war, no terrible social and economic problems...no Sin. Why should animals have to suffer? looking at the natural world, it all works perfectly. Then you look at us, collectively, and the ruin we are bringing about. Whos to say that if we took from the 'tree of life' we might well have advanced a lot faster...so much so that we ought to be out there colonising new worlds...with Gods blessings. I dont know. What I do know is that there must have been a Man called Jesus, you only have to read of how He treated People, and what His ultimate goal was about. If only we could get just a glimpse of what is to come, with a New Heaven and a New Earth.

SUMMARY OF THE BOOK OF GENESIS (My little contribution) . (From John 1 v 12 just like Genesis 6 v 1-4), Sons of God are True believers in God . Unlike Job 1 and 2, Where Sons of God refer to angels. . . . 1) The Earth was not created 6000 years ago . 2) In Genesis 1, the earth was probably created thousands or millions of years ago. . And this is when God created a perfect Heaven (sky) and Earth, and This earth wasnt void and deformed but it was perfect. . God always create perfect-complete things. And not deformed, void, formless. . This perfect created heaven and earth had water on it, plants, and many living things like DINOSAURS. . . 3) In Genesis 1 v 2, It says the earth was formless, void, and ''Water'' was already on earth such that the Holy Spirit was hovering over the waters. . Here it shows that there is a jump of events which took place which left the earth void, formless, and polluted water, on which the Holy Spirit was hovering over, and these events are not recorded because the bible is not some history-science book. . God sets the scriptures in a such a way that it shows the most important things we need to know. To avoid distractions. So, God destroyed the first heaven(sky) and the earth killing/wiping out all dinosaurs, and all living things. These events took place between Genesis 1 v1 and Genesis 1 v 2 . . 3) Then now comes the Creation again. second creation after the first creation which God destroyed or we can say, The first creation after the first creation which God destroyed living the world void, formless and polluted water, on which the Holy Spirit was hovering on. . THIS EXPLAINS WHY GOD said Replenish the earth or refill the earth. because it was once filled but God destroyed everything in preparation of the creation of humans. . . 4) Then comes in order the 6 days creation which i personally believe there were not 24 hr days but rather 1000 years according to 2 Peter 3 v 8 and Psalm 90 v 4. For 1 day to God...to us its 1000 years. . So those 6 days of creation of Genesis chapter 1, were 6000 years...in earthly time and not 6 literal days. . . 5) Genesis 1 v 26 God created humans All races, Blacks, whites, indians, Asians etc all these people were created at the same time, male and female and were commanded to multiply and fill the earth. have babies and fill the earth. Eat the fruits. . LABOUR PAINS: At this time, the labour pains for women were very minimal. Women could easily give birth to children . Sin has not entered the world yet. . . 6) God rested on the 7th day (1000 years) without creating anything. . . 7) After the 7th day (1000 years) God decided to create one man, ADAM, The first Hebrew Prophet for one reason To till the ground and take care of His fruits and flowers in the Garden that He would create...which later He created in Eden and placed Adam in it. No Eve is created here yet. . . 8) Adam is lonely, God creates animals for him to name them and play with them. But Adam was still lonely . . 9) So God creates a woman, Eve, for him, as a help meet. As an assistant in taking care of the garden. And were not commanded to have sex and have babies. Such commandment was never given to Adam and Eve in the garden. . Until they had sinned and got kicked out the garden of Eden thats when they had their first Sex and Eve conceived and gave birth to Cain and Abel. With increased labour pains. . . 10) Adam and Eve sin God curses the snake, removes the legs and commands it to move on its belly, God increases labour pains for all women because of the Sin of Eve, God removes free things like food from Adam....No sweet without sweat now. , All the races of people outside the garden sins along with Adam. why? Because Adam was representing all races on earth. . All the races of people were being represented by Adam. . . 11) Adam and Eve get kicked out, and have babies. Cain and Abel. . 12) Cain kills Abel and goes to Nod and marries a gentile idolatrous woman from among the races of people like whites, blacks who were outside the garden populating and gives birth to Enock and builds a city. Because there were many idolatrous gentiles there. . . 12) In Genesis 6, Sin is increased on earth because Jews, sons and grandsons of Adam, just like cain, continued marrying idolatrous races of people and turned away from God except Noah and his family. . (From John 1 v 12 just like Genesis 6 v 1-4), Sons of God are True believers in God . Unlike Job 1 and 2, Where Sons of God refer to angels. . . 13) Some gave birth to giants like who were humans just like Og the King, Goliath and his brothers. . 14) The giants of genesis 6 were humans a product of humans and humans. Jews and gentile people some of whom were already giants. . Angels do not procreate as Jesus says in the new testament. Therefore it was not fallen angels who were marrying women but Jews...true believers in yahweh marrying idolatrous gentile women....just like King Solomon as we see later. . . 15) God sends a local/regional flood which destroyed all the wicked except Noah and his family. . . 16) Yes the flood was not global but local...regional in that area. . It did not kill all the animals and birds on earth It did not kill all races of the People on earth . . Let me stop here for now, lest i write a book. . . From your brother in Christ, (Pililani Blessings Mughogho Malawi)

Not sure what old earth, young earth has to do with animal death before fall? Seems unrelated, would someone help me know what the argument is? Why is animal death what keeps people from believing old earth view?

Thanks, gentlemen, for your scholarship. YEC demands insane mental gymnastics - so illogical and unfounded. How did this dogma gain such traction?

Could the God of the Bible create the world in six literal days?

We no longe need the truth. As we have opinions are not truths. But we can now look at the comments from peoples opinions that differ from one another. As it's their truth. The thing that comes to mind is the tree of knowledge and suffering for the sins of the parents. All think they know god because they think

Fuz and Ken, thank you for giving this sensible answer that agrees with both science and the bible !!!!! bambification. adam had tree of life. God gives prey to the predator it is good it is his will . i preditors did not start after the fall. rtb says animal death prior to the fall, but no human death prior to the fall. the garden of eve was an enclave with predator lions kept away by the four angel guards. outside the garden was very different with predators.

WHAT a lonely sound world'. every one has the truth and only truth of thy own thinking. augg

Adam and Eve never ate of the tree of life. It says in Gen lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever if my memory serves

Adam and Eve in Genesis was the Jewish retelling of common creation stories of pagan religions of their day. I don’t believe they are meant to be taken literally.

I hate to say this but no it is not the case on what he says because everything won’t be good if animal ate each other since the being so it won’t be a good creation because the bible says he made everything vegetarian perfect no Suffering of any kind so adding the millions of years time line is dangerous