Antinatalism Sans Pessimism (?)

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A lot of ANs (were they to hear this) would say I'm stating the obvious. My excuse is, like a lot of people, I came to AN via pessimism. Now I'd like to see a separation, based on anti-suffering ethics for AN and resignation for pessimism.
And if not, at least I can say with those chaps from the Bundy rum ad, "at least I tried" ( • Bundaberg Commercial 2... ).
www.reddit.com...
Harrison, “Antinatalism, Asymmetry, and an Ethic of Prima Facie Duties” - drive.google.c...
Harrison, “Antinatalism and Moral Particularism” - drive.google.c...
Magnusson, “On Risk‐Based Arguments for Anti‐natalism” - drive.google.c...
Rachels, “The Immorality of Having Children” - drive.google.c...
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2 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 18

@craigcandor 15 дней назад

I'm always turned off by the overly pessimistic AN vloggers. I don't see a problem with accepting the staunch reality of AN without being given over to extreme sadness. Maybe AN is a statement of the facts of the case, whereas pessimism is a prediction of the verdict. Excess pessimism can influence the verdict.

@andrew_mcintosh 15 дней назад

What puts me off about that lot is just how repetitive, unoriginal and boring they are. It's just the same old tired whinging without any attempt at anything interesting. I'd say AN is more than descriptive, since it's an ethical position. Pessimism, to me, is more the descriptive part. Although yes, it is also heavily biased.

@asasill3660 14 дней назад

When your philosophy on life is fundamentally anti life you may have a problem. Isntead of thinking about all the things that are challenging in life go out and live it. Our purpose is so much more than to simply not suffer and feel pleasure. I have a lot to say on the topic but its a youtube comment

@andrew_mcintosh 14 дней назад

Of course, if someone is opposed to Life itself in some way, that's a problem. And it's a problem taken up by whoever has that view. Hopefully, consciously.

@MegaTang1234 14 дней назад

Interesting

@andrew_mcintosh 14 дней назад

Thank you.

@WackyConundrum 15 дней назад

Agreed. Antinatalism is a position ("conclusion"), to which we can come from different premises or worldviews.

@andrew_mcintosh 15 дней назад

What do you think about a separation of AN and philosophical pessimism?

@WackyConundrum 15 дней назад

@@andrew_mcintosh Exactly what I wrote in that reddit thread. Philosophical pessimism doesn't seem to necessitate antinatalism. And antinatalism can be reached from premises and worldviews other than the philosophical pessimism. So, the two are distinct but there is an important overlap.

@mysticaldarkness4341 15 дней назад

Haha! Too right at the end there.

@andrew_mcintosh 15 дней назад

Glad somebody picked it.

@kratersignal 9 дней назад

very interesesting even if do not fully understand

@andrew_mcintosh 9 дней назад

Good on you for having a go at it. It's really more of interest to people involved with AN and pessimism anyway.

@inyenzi6378 15 дней назад

David Benatar's asymmetry argument isn't based on philosophical pessimism, neither is the consent argument. There are also misanthropic arguments for antinatalism - based on the harm that future humans will cause to others, animals, the environment, etc. I also don't think antinatalism directly follows from philsophical pessimism. Even Schopenhauer and the Buddha had children. You need pessimism PLUS a sense of moral obligation or duty, or a sense that you ought do something to improve the world, or least to not make it worse. Pessimism doesn't directly mean that one necessarily acts with a sense of moral duty. You could be a pessimist and also just be a bad person (according to antinatalists) and have 10 kids - I don't see the contradiction here. You need pessimism PLUS a desire to act morally to get antinatalism from philosophical pessimism - it doesn't just directly follow.

@andrew_mcintosh 15 дней назад

It's true Benatar wasn't deriving from philosophical pessimism but his AN is, I think, an existential pessimist position since he puts so much value on suffering, even to the point of arguing there's more of it than we realise. It's hard to see his description of Life as anything other than pessimist. Yea, AN is the ethical position one can take that can be derived from pessimism, whereas mere pessimism isn't an ethical position in and of itself, although it's making a moral claim about good and bad in a universalist way.