Aptera - Battery Management System 

Agreed, it's rare we get this kind of in depth update with a startup!

Plural? I saw only one engineer and what he said was very basic stuff. There was no info on how to control the battery temperatures, which is needed for fast charging and when it is cold/freezing. It is also common to operate each module with its own controller and then have one or two more boards do the overall interaction between these battery modules. The only difference is that they customize their system for the vehicle and can keep the optimization iterations much smaller and faster and have maximum control over the entire implementation.

@@n1vca🤡🤡🤡

​@n1vca , you have to accept that Aptera knows their audience, i.e., don't get too technical or detailed. Just a brief summary of what they've been doing. Think of it like an employee spotlight within the company.

@@n1vca We have had videos on this subject from other engineers in the past.

Im willing to invest the second I see ONE on the road.

@@carsonnak4842 There have been more than one on the road. Or did you mean a production model because you want the reward without the effort and risk?

🤣 So unusual for you Jeff! 😂

I wouldn't think it prudent for small startups like Aptera to open source their softwares.

@@adimchionyenadum2962 And what evidence do you have to support that claim? And I guess, tell that to Framework?

I'm wondering about liability/warranty issues...

@@narphizoid Well, they don't have to open up the bootloader, there is a difference between open source firmware and an open bootloader. They can open source their firmware and software while retaining control of it all. All contributions to the code base still need to be reviewed and approved by the maintainers.

@@adimchionyenadum2962, The BMS firmware is a minor part of a car, and nobody could create clones of the Aptera with just the BMS firmware, because they would need the legal right to copy the hardware design as well. Yes, they could create their own BMS hardware design and then use Aptera's firmware, but if the licensing is GPL, any improvements that they make to the code have to be shared back with Aptera, so it should help improve Aptera's code. In the long run, collaboration through open source often lowers the development costs for everyone, so it is a win-win situation. Sadly, the idea of open source is not common in the auto industry, but there are a number of laptops being sold with open source firmware: FrameWork (EC), Purism Librem 14 (Coreboot & EC), MNT Reform (all open hardware and firmware), System76 (Coreboot & EC), Olimex TERES-64 (all open hardware & firmware) and all Chromebook use Coreboot. For example, System76 created EC firmware for its laptops. Then, Purism took that code and adapted it for different chips to run in its Librem 14. At the same time, Purism was paying one of the principal Coreboot developers and his code commits help System76 that also uses Coreboot. Even though both companies are competitors, they realize that sharing their code makes their products better, and creates more loyal customers who appreciate the freedom they provide. I already want to buy an Aptera, but if Aptera open sourced its firmware and software, I would be 10 times more excited about buying the hardware, because it would mean that we in the community could support the car forever and keep upgrading and customizing the software even if the company went bankrupt.

I'm invested in pre-shares

Thanks so much!

That is funny I was thinking the same thing.

@@DaBinChe 🤣

🤓 YES! CEO Steve Fambro mentioned in a video that the MPPT board will have headroom for additional solar panels. However he also mentioned that an external connector may not be included in the first vehicles. When it gets added is still TBD. Perhaps an enterprising electrical engineer could develop an aftermarket kit for that.

@@fotoguru222 Thanks! I wonder if that would be on the same MPPT i.e. would need to match voltage (parallel) or would stack voltage (serries). And also, how much headroom? 200w 600w or 6000W 🤔

@@solarcannonballrun They haven't released any specs on their MPPT solar controller or what range of solar panel specs it could handle. However if I remember correctly the controller could handle another 700 watts or so, potentially doubling the output of the builtin cells.

Separate circuit boards for each battery module is pretty standard for EVs. Each one is close to the cells and connected to them with short wires. They communicate with the master BMS via a data link. This can be better than running long wires to hundreds of cells from a central BMS.

@@georgepelton5645 George, thank you for good explanation.

@@georgepelton5645Exactly! Long wires to a central BMS raises the risk of cross talk and line interference plus chafing while having a separate board for each module communicating over a common bus with a central master BMS has multiple benefits including allowing for one type of central master BMS to be used on battery packs with different numbers of modules so that they don't have to reinvent a new BMS for every size battery pack they use. This should help speed up software development and simply updates since they won't have to be writing multiple custom updates for a variety of different master BMS units or control modules. This should also allow for faster rollout of the different sized packs in the future since it will be a more flexible system capable of controlling a variety of different capacity packs. Watching Sandy Munro's Engineers discussion on battery pack design and evolution will give one a better understanding of the tradeoffs and benefits. Best!

Are you in the Accelerator Program (AP)?

I can't imagine the potential export fees, any estimates?

Do you think it would be possible for an EU member to setup a satellite production facility for EU product consumption in order to keep any tariffs at a minimum?

@@micbroc6435 Opening one or more EU production factories is definitely in Aptera's long term plans.

My betting is that the first EU fab will be at or close to CPC in Modena, once EU/UK homologation is sorted out, which may need a few vehicle tweaks and vehicle class regulation updates. There will be no need for workarounds unless you want to bring a US model in as a personal import. Equally, Chris A has said that anyone on the Accelerator programme could delay their actual vehicle until the exact spec is ready, so members in EU/rest of the world could still have a place, get all of the benefits (build book, numbered Aptera, etc.) without having to take one of the first 2000 off the line, which would be collected from Carlsbad, shipped wherever, import taxes, and so on. 2026 looks like the EU/UK model year, which is a shame because I was hoping to take mine to NUFAM in Karlsruhe in early Autumn 2025 - the next NUFAM would be in 2027...

Just a comment that a cell phone has FAR more processing power than what it took to land on the moon. ' “In 1978, the Cray-1 supercomputer cost $7 million, weighed 10,500 pounds and had a 115 kilowatt power supply. It was, by far, the fastest computer in the world,” Longbottom writes of the device, designed as the flagship product of Seymour Cray’s high-performance computing company. “The Raspberry Pi costs around $70 (CPU board, case, power supply, SD Card), weighs a few ounces, uses a five watt power supply and is more than 4.5 times faster than the Cray 1.”

@@n.brucenelson5920An original Prime Mainframe though it could move massive amounts of data was less powerful then the original PC-XT though it needed a massive amount of power and was so heavy it was delivered in multiple sections each requiring a hoist to move it and required a 3 phase power feed. The two we had used 8.25 inch floppy disks and we would joke about another power station having to be brought online every time we fired them up. No printed circuit boards but solid platinum hand wired traces. We only fired them up when absolutely needed for legacy work which required a tech monitor that process sometimes for hours until the power supplies warmed up and stabilized enough to chance turning the processing and drive units on. Now better than that fits in the palm of your hand, boots about instantly and will run for hours to days on a small battery. Things sure have changed since the 70's and 80's. Best!

I thought from the way they were described that the 8th was the PDC (the one with all the high-power switches)...?

That was my thought, and conclusion as well. Maybe he will clarify?

Power switching, distribution, and control I'd guess. Circuit breakers relay functions, etc

CTNS will be manufacturing our design! :)

I agree. It won't be initially, but Aptera is looking into what will be required when standards are in place.

To my knowledge all EV batteries preserve a small margin at either end of the pack to preserve battery life. But as an owner you should only be using the middle of the pack's capacity anyway say 70 to 40%.

@@bearclaw5115 The nominal 40 kWh pack already has considerable margin built into the rated pack size.

@bearclaw5115 On the Volt, the nominal charge range is programmed into the software. So if you charge to 100%, the battery will only be at 80% or 90% but your gauge will show full. Having a factory hard limit takes away the guesswork but there is.a cost to range. I'm hoping Aptera implements something similar or, at the very lease, gives us the option to program our own limits. If they're basing their ramge off of max limits of each pack, then these batteries aren't gonna last that long. I pre ordered the 600-mile ramge, which has the 60kw battery. Usuable battery should be about 45kw or 450 miles to preserve the battery. Maybe they will add a little more capacity so I can get my full range of 600 miles but with a 75kw battery that has 60kw usable.

@@rotaryperfection Aptera is indeed doing that.

It has a standard ac compressor and a resistive heater and a separate liquid cooling zone for the battery pack that can cool or heat the battery. Aptera has said a heat pump will be a future update. I asked Aptera's AI assistant, Lunabot, "Does Aptera have battery preconditioning ?" Lunabots response.. "Yes, Aptera has a battery management system that includes a heater inside the battery coolant circuit to protect the battery in extreme cold conditions." This response helpful to you? That helped 👍That didn't help 👎 AI Agent · a few seconds ago

Aptera's battery pack is heated/cooled via a bottom plate and is fully temperature controlled in all conditions. This includes preconditioning. The vehicle is fully operational for it's intended world market, all year round.

@@DemaGeek ​thank you very much. On which technical basis/concept do the heat and cool the plate?

​@@garywozniak7742thanks, sounds great

@@n1vca You're very welcome. Heating will be either from the motors or resistive, and cooling via airflow over the aluminum belly pan or by air conditioning as needed. Aptera has made these choices in a time saving effort to market, because the development of their own heat pump would be an additional two years.

LOL.

They aren't doing 48v. They aren't doing a heat pump either. For now it's all off the shelf, except the BMS battery pack and binc, to keep costs down

​@@maj429like he's said in another video, a heat pump would be nice, but they're very complicated and take up more space. It would save quite a bit of energy, but they don't have the funds currently for justification for the heat pump system.

That's not a rumor. I heard that direct from Aptera. DCFC will monopolize the charging capability of Aptera's battery, charging at 40 to 60 KW and bypassing Aptera's internal charging circuits. (The peak solar charging rate will be 0.7 KW, less than 2% of the DCFC rate.) However, solar power will be added on top of any AC charging you do.

I think it is unlikely that Aptera will offer LFP batteries due to their lower energy density, because more weight would reduce the energy efficiency of the car. For example, EVE Energy's NMC 2170 are 290 Wh/kg, whereas LFP is only about 160 Wh/kg. However, some of the new LMFP and M3P batteries are getting up to 230 Wh/kg, so it might become a viable option in the future. NMC has a lot more capacity degradation at higher voltages, so I assume that Aptera will limit the max voltage for normal charging or at least offer an option for the user to limit it. Ideally, the charging is usually limited, but the user can can select to charge to 100% before going on long trips.

Tu-be or not tu-be That is the question!

I hope if all that happens & that discharge of ac and an Anderson type dc outputs become standard.

The total weight of the vehicle is like 1800 lb, so it can't be that much

@@corneliusvaI’m looking to see what the weight differences are between the different vehicles. I’m under the impression that each module in the LD is approximately 40 pounds. If that’s correct the battery weight in the LD would be 240 pounds.

More than likely if the individual module BMS board has an issue, the central module will alert the vehicle to a problem and would probably not allow charging or discharging until the bad board is replaced. It's a very unlikely problem, but depending on how the packs are built, the module BMS should be replaceable.

@Flyingwigs sounds good some gas cars things just stop working not telling you which board is bad, techs have to look at wiring diagrams. SOME CARS TELL YOU WHAT CIRCUIT OR BOARD IS BAD. APTERA SHOULD HAVE LESS A MESS AND WIRING.

I plan to have an early model in Iowa and will report on my experience.

..in this case Na-Ionen akkus would work better...

@@user-hv8vx7si1o Sodium Ion batteries do not yet have sufficient energy density to do the job.

When they are ready - unlike the original Tesla Roadster, which was shipping knowingly defective vehicles in 2008.

Yes, with 811 NMC chemistry. EVE energy is likely to be one source.

I wouldn't count on it with the LE models. Once the US has a V2L standard in place, I think Aptera will add that capability down the road. I know they have discussed it.

Aptera may not be willing to reveal the supplier yet.

Their website still has the option to invest as of 8-March-2024. Wishing Aptera much success! It's still a long shot but I do so want them to make this car a reality.

Investing is still an option, but the Accelerator program is closed.

Invest $2000 get $1000 off the vehicle is still open I believe

Unknown but probable. They will already have to deal with four solar inputs, only two of which are guaranteed. Roof, Dashboard, Hood and Hatch, hood and hatch optional. Those four inputs will have to be managed and balanced the same as the six battery packs. It would be simple enough to add a fifth input for extended solar, and a sixth for extended battery. And they've already said they plan on an external solar option.

@@richardryley3660 I hope you're right. I've never been able to get a real answer to this question.

@@ScottOstr I can agree with that. All we can do is speculate at this time.

Can the optional hatch solar input be reconfigured to accept externally solar trailer ? Going long distance road trip with extra 3 square meters sounds like a dream.

@@Seadogstudio Love this idea. I suspect we'll also see a big improvement in solar panel tech soon.

Probably immediately after one is built.

I think it's unlikely that 4G is going to be dropped anytime soon because 5G has to have much closer towers than 4G and 4G can go for a very long way in terms of distance between towers. T-Mobile uses some very long range ones through West Virginia and those are 4G

5G devices are backward compatible with 4G. 5G was hyped up and rushed out so that consumers would "demand to download a movie in seconds" (despite needing more than an hour to watch it AND they stream it on their device, they don't store it). Those sales funded 5G antenna deployment. I'm a former firmware engineer. 5G and Live Update are dystopian. If people knew the information that Google had on them AND if it was the government, not Google, they'd go out into the streets and begin randomly shooting people with their boom sticks. Sell it as convenience however and consumers are EAGER to surrender their Rights ...and mine.

Aptera tracks inventory per vehicle down to the serial number of each individual cell. I don't yet know what the service recommendations will be.

Higher Amp values means thicker wires and more waste heat for a given power. They're actually being more efficient going with higher Voltage. W=VA (or P = VI if you prefer). Ideally you would bulk charge the entire battery assembly as much as you can with the highest voltage you can, then balance the smaller components (either pack level or cell level) at the max voltage those components can handle at that level. Parallel components can be charged simultaneously but power is limited by the lowest max current any one component can handle including the wiring.

Yes. We don't yet know the costs, but Aptera will have instructions on line and will strive for a 24 hour parts shipment turn around time.

It would only save 8 lbs in weight. It wouldn't be worth it for most people.

It's true, 4 kg in weight is nothing, but you can have 100 kg of solar panels on the roof at home, it costs you nothing, and if you only drive around the area, you can charge it in the evening. You don't have to painstakingly manufacture panels and glue them to an aerodynamic surface and painstakingly test how long it will last. You could easily sell cars, your big advantage of the car is its low weight, great Cx. This is how you beat everyone. Now the main price will be the deciding factor, and you can reduce this by simplicity. In the end, everyone is about money and you need to produce as soon as possible.

@@jirivaculik1152 "you can have 100 kg of solar panels on the roof at home, it costs you nothing, " I don't understand how you claim this? However, the Aptera design has far fewer parts than conventional design and a great example of simplicity in a vehicle.

@@n.brucenelson5920 Yes, your design is excellent, you have few parts. That's great, but I've seen a lot of videos where you glue and test solar panels. It must be a lot of work and you don't know what it will do in 5 years. No one has much experience with it. And if there is a problem, it will kill you. Without panels, you could already sell cars and gradually complete this technology. How much will the panels with assembly cost?

@@jirivaculik1152 Aptera has a patent on their solar panel assembly process that is likely to start bringing in revenue independent of the vehicle manufacturing. Sunpower has a 40 year warranty on panels made with the same cells - the longest in the industry. Aptera has been doing testing of these cells almost since they started. As a continuous improvement company, the were able to move on from the original plastic coated cells to a much more robust glass design that may be the most scratch resistant portion of the vehicle. I am really excited about what is coming.

Aptera plans to use longer cells in the battery pack for 1000 miles of range, but the same number of cells, placed in the same lay-out and using the same wiring harness. I guess the height of the battery box may be made smaller for the packs with shorter cells. But they are aiming for a minimum of redesign between the energy sizes, so cooling systems and electronics etc. should be the same. A pack with less energy and a shorter range, can be made by omitting some of the cells. Source I think I heard it in one of the interviews of either CEO's or engineers from Aptera, put on RU-vid this year 2024.

Yes, I remember the same thing, but I was referring to the firmware and software changes. I mean the firmware/software will have to know what size battery it is working with. @@NikolaiBeier

A few parameter values could be different between different packs, but the program/algorithms does not need to change. The safe way to guard the cells against too high a charge and too low a discharge does not depend on the estimated capacity or the estimated 'state of charge'. @@Rang62455

@@NikolaiBeier more cells -> more weight and more money to pay...

It has to go through the controllers, due to the voltage differences.

Heya Bruce, I would say, maybe? Could you not build a buck converter setup to boost the voltage to what the inverter needs? You could probably build a 10Khz control loop to maintain an output voltage pretty good, but it would def be a pretty neat and custom ckt. Aptera, want me to build one for ya? Might be more efficient... ;)

@@jordanyamamoto9350 🤓 If you know enough to build an inverter, you should know the solar MPPT charging circuit output and the battery loads like the motor controllers are both connected to the battery terminals and monitored by the BMS. Where the energy goes varies millisecond by millisecond depending on the instantanous variable loads. If the load is demaninng more than the solar is providing that instant, the solar power is going to that load with the battery providing an extra that's needed. If the solar is outputing more than the load requires, the extra solar output will charge the battery, assuming it's not full.

Yeah, it's the latter. If you're driving, the solar charge will probably all go to the wheels. If you're stopped, anything that isn't used by the system will go to charging the battery. You can say that the solar can drive and charge the battery at the same time but that isn't technically true. The solar power isn't wasted though, unless you aren't moving and the battery is 100% full. But the solar cells can't drive the wheels all by themselves unless you're like creeping along in rush hour traffic. You will always lose charge while driving and gain it while parked.

@@richardryley3660 Nope - we've been told to think of the solar system as a "trickle charger" that adds charge to the battery. It cannot generate enough current at any given moment to directly power the motors.

No, due to power density and cold weather performance issues in achieving the performance goals of the vehicle. Aptera will be useing 2170 811 chemistry NMC cells in these first two vehicles. The 600 and 1000 mile nominal range vehicles will use taller batteries with the same diameter and chemistry.

This is just based on what I have seen visually, but it looks like CTNS is engineering what Aptera designed, with their own modifications for efficiency of course. CTNS does appear to be the more experienced partner, after all. What this means though is that the BMS should have essentially the same battery to work with. The hardware would still be designed with the same basic structure and software interfaces. The same goes for the 600 mile and 1000 mile Batteries. Different batteries, but the same pack with the same type of cells. They could even replace the battery technology while keeping the same pack, as long as the diameter is unchanged.

This reminds me that I was going to mention that the BMS should still be usable with the 600 mile or 1000 mile batteries. They won't have to write a whole new BMS for those packs. Or the 250 mile variant either. It will just need to be tested and validated with the different hardware. A clever design. 😊

When you give them 100 millions dollars

Shortly after production begins.

@@ubaldinovega5775 so never. That’s all I needed to know.

That’s understandable, but once they hit the road, expect the price of shares to at least double or triple

Nothing wrong with being a bit risk averse and adopting 'late stage'. Won't affect you but will add a bit more delay for early adopters---again freedom of choice.

I just checked my dashboard. It is still showing H1 2025.

Hmmm, Mine says 2025. Probably not a hard time frame either. I want mine ASAP too, but I'm not going to complain about it. They aren't Ford, they haven't been around for a literal 100 years, it'll probably take a hot minute before they're ready fthe public.

Kinda like fsd for tesla, it’s always next year. But for an entire vehicle.

@@micbroc6435 My wife and I both rode in a prototype close to what was originally announced in November of 2021. Due to the surprising demand, the production method and the quality of the vehicle has gone WAY up compared to what was planned. The body tooling is finished and the production parts were on public display in Paris this week. They will still go through validation testing, and unlike Tesla in 2008, Aptera will be shipping fully validated vehicles.

If you don’t have the launch vehicle then it will be TBD. First ones they are making will be 400 mile range. If you change to that it will say 2025.

Aptera is set up to maintain management control. They learned that lesson when they gave away too much control to Idealab the first time around.

Evs have active cooling and many technologies to prevent battery fires. It's not to say they don't still happen, but ev batteries catching fire are very uncommon and rare. When media talks about 50 ev fires but they don't talk about the 1000 ice fires per 100,000 vehicles then it makes ev look dangerous and unsafe. The truth is that they are safer. Ice fires aren't easy to put out either, especially if it's a gas fire.

Tesla vehicles have only caught fire when they were in accidents that punctured their battery packs and shorted the battery cells. This can happen to ANY EV battery and is not a function of the BMS.

@narphizoid yes exactly, and they have insulation, and they are placed down below where it's less likely to be punctured. On top of that, there's battery cooling, better batteey chemistry, and charge acceptance control. There's some training and practice on ev fire safety where they directly inject the vehicle and flood it with water to cool down the battery, then put a tub around it and flood more water. It's requires much less water and it's under controlled conditions.

I don't give a dam about diversity I am looking for COMPETENCE..NEED I mention a Press Secretary and V.P.? I am supporting Aptera 100%.

We already know that there are women and people of color on the engineering team that have been featured in other videos.

Why would you 'love to see' stats on that adamc? Are you one of those EQUITY NUTJOBS that always advocate dumbing down everything rather than evolving knowledge and expertise to ever higher levels? I was raised to be color blind and never focus on the color one's skin, eyes, hair, etc. It's the 'color' of one's character and the knowledge, achievements of their brains that's the most important along with real human being focused principles! Aptera is being designed and built by very smart, very well-intentioned people in a way that should benefit all people...even those who won't have one.

Chris Anthony has already co-founded a battery company and it is now public. He knows as much about battery tech and BMS design as almost anyone. Perhaps you don't know the history of the employees Aptera has had working on the development. The entire project has set risky and ambitious performance goals before themselves, but it is clear that they are generating a great deal of new IP that will find application even beyond the vehicle market.

There has to be a body first - then validation of the production intent models before they start shipping. Tesla didn't do that and shipped Roadsters as "shipping models" when they knew the transmissions would break on acceleration. They almost went bankrupt before they got that fixed.

I think it's smart to put time and effort to making videos likes this with investors money than making actual production vehicles. it's important to gain trust from investors. because you can't make a good living without money.

@@JS-qn4dy Aptera is not Elio. Take a look at the Body in Carbon that Aptera showed publicly at a trade show in Paris last week - made with tooling paid for with investor funds that had individual tools made from 100 ton steel blocks costing millions - each. And then look at the patent portfolio already granted - that will bring in its own independent revenue stream beyond the vehicles themselves. There is no "instead of" here. It is shameful to suggest.