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Are $100 Loopwheel T-Shirts Worth It? 

Stridewise
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* Thanks to Son of a Stag for hosting me for this (not sponsored) video in London! Begin your quest for loopwheel with their t-shirt range - if you're convinced! www.sonofastag.com/collection...
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✰ Is Filson's $100 Briefcase Worth It? • Is Filson's $1000 Brie...
✰ All About Viberg's $700 Boot: • REVIEW: Is the Viberg ...
It makes sense to want to spend a few hundred bucks on boots or jackets that'll last forever, age beautifully, and reflect a high degree of craftsmanship. But what about t-shirts? If you're willing to level up your wardrobe, why do t-shirts always get left behind? Most guys probably assume that a t-shirt's a t-shirt, but there are some elements that people are willing to pay higher prices for.
00:00 Intro
01:30 What's a Loopwheel T-shirt?
02:41 What are the benefits of loopwheel?
04:20 Why do people like slub?
06:34 What are the best brands for loopwheel shirts?
07:40 Wrapping up
#sonofastag #loopwheel

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25 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 122   
@Cmez872
@Cmez872 2 года назад
Nick literally goes the extra mile traveling around the globe to bring top-notch content, love it and enjoy it. Thank you!
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
This made my night dude! Sent a screenshot to my buddy, thanks for the good vibes
@chrissoegono5139
@chrissoegono5139 2 года назад
This is great content, Nick! I love how your videos line up with my current searches and fashion timeline. I’ve recently started to get into loopwheel T-shirt’s myself after stumbling across a Merz B Schwanen white t. Previously, my go to was the J Crew premium slub, but immediately noticed a difference in quality after making the switch. However, if you don’t have a store nearby to try on first (shout out to Self Edge in LA), be aware that they run a bit smaller than the typical white T . New owner tip: make sure your selvedge jeans have all of the dye worn off, otherwise it’ll transfer on to your new beautiful white shirts 😩 (not something I was worried too much about with the cheaper J. Crew shirt). Thanks, Nick!
@14s0cc3r14
@14s0cc3r14 2 года назад
Without even watching the video: *My wallet says no*
@H..M..
@H..M.. 2 года назад
Correct! I’m still choking on the price tags of all the boots I have that don’t fit quite right.
@toddbaker64
@toddbaker64 2 года назад
@@H..M.. HA! I can totally relate. I need to put mine on eBay and try to recoup some money.
@freddierodriguez3036
@freddierodriguez3036 2 года назад
Great looking store, great host, and t-shirt suited you very well. I’d only pay that much money if I could buy it at the store in person. Best wishes and happy new year!
@iuhuh10110
@iuhuh10110 2 года назад
Warehouse makes great Ts, I love the loose weave of it. Studio D'artisan also makes a good one, but it's a bit heavier with a denser weave.
@tommysmith7031
@tommysmith7031 2 года назад
Depends on your disposition. The benefit is that the 100 pound keeps their shape longer. Other things to consider, how delicate is it? Can you put it in the dryer? I wouldn't though, it is not what I'm into.
@DMorgan77
@DMorgan77 2 года назад
I didn't know what loopwheel was, thanks Nick! My wife was in the room and said hey this sounds like you, first the sneakers (Koio) , then the boots and now onto the tees. I think I'll stick with my $19 Gettees though for now lol.
@36424567254
@36424567254 2 года назад
Technically there is also another premium alternative to t-shirts: knitted t-shirts, which are, in fairness, basically short sleeved light cotton sweaters (i.e. they are knitted at the seams, not sewn, and usually feature ribbed hem and cuffs). They are basically the dressier counterpart to the workwear-adjacent t's shown here. I really like them, personally, as they look casual yet much more refined, and still very much vintage.
@LeadLeftLeon
@LeadLeftLeon 2 года назад
Knitted tees enhances your playboy charms
@jeanmartox3570
@jeanmartox3570 2 года назад
hello to France!!! Happy new year for you and all your familly!!!
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
salut mon vieux!
@Charlesfrostman
@Charlesfrostman Год назад
Love the information and detail provided in this video. Only question I’m left with is, how would someone whose looking to start an apparel brand get access to wholesale loop wheel tops?
@tysanders8700
@tysanders8700 2 года назад
Marketing...to convince you a $100 t-shirt is better quality and 'worth it'
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
I get no commissions or anything from this video btw haha
@grumpysorc3744
@grumpysorc3744 2 года назад
As I remember, Samurai ( Japanese denim brand ) makes pretty good t-shirts/polos for ~$ 120. It seems expensive, but you pay for quality/fabric features, not for logo.
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
Yeah that's at least a point for me, it's a function and not a brand you're paying for (eg Supreme)
@blackbearddmh1277
@blackbearddmh1277 2 года назад
Left Field NYC has some amazing loop t-shirts
@pbender97
@pbender97 2 года назад
After being fed up with regular T shirts stretching out and losing quality I researched and discovered loop-wheeling a few years back. Initial thought was the price point being high but after buying one from Warehouse and feeling the quality I was sold. Now my closet is filled with them from various brands. The cotton is so soft It's like a blanket wrapped around you lol. Great to see you covering them!
@Snail_Nailz
@Snail_Nailz 2 года назад
Which brands have you found best so far?
@pbender97
@pbender97 2 года назад
@@Snail_Nailz Entry SG, Warehouse, Samurai & honorable mentions go to Whitesville & Jelado !
@krisjones4051
@krisjones4051 3 месяца назад
@@Snail_NailzMerz B Schwanen is exceptional. Have two shirts, a hoodie and a Henley from them
@Snail_Nailz
@Snail_Nailz 3 месяца назад
@@krisjones4051 awesome thanks for the rec!
@Snail_Nailz
@Snail_Nailz 3 месяца назад
@@pbender97 fantastic…thanks for recommending so many options!! 🫶
@peanutbuttergarlicsauce8730
@peanutbuttergarlicsauce8730 2 года назад
Get some!!!
@AJMacDonaldJr
@AJMacDonaldJr 2 года назад
Very nice! 😺 I've never heard of loopwheel!
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
It's the Next Evolution Of T-Shirts
@kevinleyva3003
@kevinleyva3003 2 года назад
I made the jump and got a $120 Japanese made white T by Jackman..Never would have thought I’d take that step but the crazy heavy weight and texture kept me up at night. Went back to Mode Man while I was in Seoul, S. Korea and haven’t looked back
@Snail_Nailz
@Snail_Nailz 2 года назад
So u feel the Jackman tee was worth $120?
@kevinleyva3003
@kevinleyva3003 2 года назад
@@Snail_NailzI would have been happier if it was $80-$100 but I don’t regret buying it and after a year of wear it’s still in great shape. I probably wouldn’t buy it again. Probably.
@surfingmoose
@surfingmoose 2 года назад
Simply YES!. I own a few loopwheeled Ts and Henleys. My GF has claimed a few of them.
@duyluu3354
@duyluu3354 2 месяца назад
So is there a loop wheel that makes each sleeve too?
@anthonymerchanmorales8150
@anthonymerchanmorales8150 Год назад
A doubt I have about these shirts is if after buying it can take it to my tailor to make it for me bespoke the t shirt??
@MM-di7ux
@MM-di7ux Месяц назад
What is the best method for washing heavy weight t’s
@Onlypcgaming
@Onlypcgaming 2 года назад
Great video again @stridewise. After watching this, went to Son of a Stag and ordered 5 Warehouse tees and or pocket tees to add to my wardrobe.
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
Whoa! That's awesome dude, hope you told them I sent you :)
@Onlypcgaming
@Onlypcgaming 2 года назад
@@Stridewise I should of, LOL. I even order the shirt your wearing in this video too.
@trah666
@trah666 2 года назад
Brave Star makes these style shirts, high quality, double check sizing because they run a bit on the big side
@chrissoegono5139
@chrissoegono5139 2 года назад
I agree with Steve here. Brave Star is in my neighborhood (El Segundo, CA) and I’ve always had a tough time with their sizing - from shirts to jeans. I would hate the back and forth if I had to order online.
@EzforEmo
@EzforEmo Год назад
I have several merz b schwanen loopwheeled t-s,1950 version. They are def the most comfortable t shirt ive tried. They are like 55 bucks
@kamchuenso7836
@kamchuenso7836 Месяц назад
Great ones though I think 215 version is better .......just like more thickness into it~~
@TheShannonagains
@TheShannonagains 2 года назад
No Stridewise, I am not willing to spend $100 on a t-shirt, but I am willing to watch a video on it…
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
Hey that's all I ask
@cesarsanchez9697
@cesarsanchez9697 2 года назад
Lol! My sentiments exactly!!
@coryjones9573
@coryjones9573 2 года назад
I like expensive boots.and leather luggage!not sure about 100 dollar tee shirts.i just started buying filson and Woolrich flannels this winter here in michigan.
@clamum9648
@clamum9648 Год назад
I might be interested in buying some higher quality t-shirts though I can't say I have the "shirt loses its shape" problem. I'm thinking of one shirt in particular, a Social Distortion band shirt I got in 2007, that I still have today and it looks about the same as it did when I bought it (graphic might be a little faded but not even that bad, honestly). Other shirts I've had for that long or just a few years less are the same. And those aren't expensive shirts, they're all cheap t-shirts. Some of them don't have side seams either; that's not really an uncommon thing for t-shirts, actually.
@SpartanFarron
@SpartanFarron 2 года назад
This just made me aware that my $5 2-pack uniqlo supima shirt doesn't have any side seams. And it's one of my cheapest shirts that I've worn the most in the last 12 years. Still no holes.
@Phlegm_Thrower
@Phlegm_Thrower 2 года назад
I have a couple as well. Those t-shirts in the video are ripoffs. Loopwheel is actually a cheap way to make t-shirt. You're just paying for the heritage look.
@carlwest5936
@carlwest5936 2 года назад
I like quality goods like selvedge denim and goodyear boots but I simple do not see the benefit in loopwheel shirts. I’d rather just buy a super thick soft 100% egyptian/pima cotton one for like $40
@spiljay2
@spiljay2 Год назад
You said earlier on on the video that the tee you're wearing is smaller than you're usual taste. Do you feel the same way after six months? Also have you expanded into luxury shirts in the time since this video, and if you have, what've you learned?
@SinkingStarship
@SinkingStarship 5 месяцев назад
These kind of fancy T-shirts are very well made from aesthetically pleasing, tactile fabrics. Here's the problem: they suck at being T-shirts. I've tried all the fancy heavyweight shirts and they all disappointed me. Now I mostly wear just super basic JCrew Jeans tees, and ones from a defunct denim store called Lone Flag, even though the rest of my wardrobe is filled with products by specialty casualwear brands. Why? Because I live in the Southeast US where it's friggin' hot most of the year. Fancy tees suck at being comfortable in hot weather. They don't keep you warm or work well as layers in cool weather, and they're hot in hot weather. So I ended up selling mine in favor of basic, comfortable options. Maybe super heavy tees are great if you live in San Francisco or somewhere where the hottest it gets is still pretty cool, but for me, they make no sense. Another factor: most of these fancy tees are too darn short! I want to tuck in my T-shirts, and have just an average length torso. But fancy tees tend to be short, and the often heavyweight fabrics tend to feel clunky and cumbersome if you do manage to tuck them in. For me, light, soft, long tees are the best. If any of the high-end brands actually made tees like that, I'd be happy to wear them, but I haven't found them yet.
@4120306
@4120306 2 месяца назад
I don't throw away t-shirts because they lose their shape. I throw the white one away because they turn yellow, black ones because they turn grey and colored ones because they lose their vibrant. Long lasting at $100? I could rotate 10 decent quality supima cotton uniqlo t-shirts with that money.
@LeadLeftLeon
@LeadLeftLeon 2 года назад
Once you upgrade you don’t go back. Notable difference in feel between a uniqlo tee vs a $40+ tee
@LeadLeftLeon
@LeadLeftLeon 2 года назад
Start with black when upgrading to quality tees. Easier to keep clean
@bw3126
@bw3126 2 года назад
Good quality content Nick. With that said, I have purchased Eddie Bauer legend wash T-shirts for two decades now. They don’t lose shape, they don’t shrink, the fit is perfect. They’re excellent quality for about $20 (or less) per shirt. I cycle through them for one reason.. pit stains, which anyone who wears antiperspirant probably knows about. Personally there’s no way I’m dropping $100 on a T shirt that’s gonna pit out just like a $20 one. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of and own a lot of heritage clothing, hence watching this channel, but $100 for a T is just silly, regardless of how quality it is.
@DancingSpacePotato
@DancingSpacePotato 2 года назад
I simply don’t have time in my life to do the research and find products that align with my need to be environmentally conscious and humane. Nick does the work for me and all I have to do it learn a bit more about a certain thing and then slap down the cash to buy a $100 shirt or $500 jeans. I can’t blame you for my current obsession with Edward Green Galway’s, but I blame you for everything else
@Zofer-1920
@Zofer-1920 2 года назад
Hmm…my understanding of some of this was actually quite contrary. Knitting in the loop is more cost effective in that there is less labor for constructing. Less labor to stitch a seam since it doesn’t have one. However, without side seams this means it will not be tapered to your body. Does the process allow for tapering? If so that would be good. Also of the weave patterns of looking irregular, I find it to be more often a less pleasing look. I’ll venture there are better thread counts and shirt styles where it’d work nicely, but in solid color t-shirts I haven’t quite been persuaded. A premium priced t-shirt would have to have a higher thread count for me to enjoy the “irregular weave” pattern. Thanks for the video though. It’s a solid topic to be discussed for sure! Open to any further information if I’ve misunderstood anything. Thanks!
@TheGrzzi
@TheGrzzi 2 года назад
taper is what I was thinking about also. I have the rite stuff and the velva sheen tubular T shirts, and while ( esp the rite stuff ) they are good they are boxy. So far the best T shirts I have are the UES ones. Suvin gold cotton, very soft, substantial, non tubular...
@36424567254
@36424567254 2 года назад
Your analysis missed one thing which is actually the whole key to explain why they cost more: the circular knitting machine produce much slower than modern machines. That's it. You can produce much less in a given time frame, you then have to charge more for it, as simple as that. It's really not unlike selvedge jeans; machines produce slower (and are expensive, too), so they cost a premium. In addition to that, just like selvedge jeans, again, those brands usually use better, usually thicker, more expensive cottons. Since they produce in small batches, they also have to order the cottons in small batches, which means even less savings on bulk buys and thus higher prices again. That's a good part of how a 100€ t-shirt costs that much more. Ofc, the vintage aestethic also costs a premium, as design work always tends to do. Most other brands instead buy cheap low quality cotton, in volume so large they get it even cheaper, knit with much faster modern machines, and then have super cheap labour to sew panels in some poor country.
@Zofer-1920
@Zofer-1920 2 года назад
@@36424567254 thanks, that’s a reasonable factor that would change the cost for sure. Knew I’d get some info. Thanks. 👍
@36424567254
@36424567254 2 года назад
@@TheGrzzi regarding fit, after some time obsessing over slim fit t-shirts, I've realized that imo it's largely a pointless quest, unless you like the super slim, (and super uncomfortable) fashion look. What actually matters, and visually represents a good 80% of what you see as "slim/well fitting" or "relaxed" is in fact the fit in the bicep rather than how tapered the body is. Indeed cheap tees are often huge there, in order to fit as many people as possible, or use elastane, which I strongly encourage everyone to avoid - you'll be surprised how much longer the tees last as well as feel better to the touch. Good t-shirts are more reasonable sized, even at the cost of not fitting bodybuilders. Morale of the story: I think tubular knits are more comfortable and generally look good as long as they fit the arm properly. Are they worth 100€? Well, maybe, depends on how much the benefits matter to you and whether you can afford it - personally I would only think about it after paying other priorities. However, less expensive brands with basic designs do exist.
@TheGrzzi
@TheGrzzi 2 года назад
can tubular T shirt be fitted? I have few expensive ones, they are boxy. So far best T Shirts I got are UES. Good colored T shirt is not a problem to find, problem are the white ones.
@36424567254
@36424567254 2 года назад
Afaik, no. Current (which are actually old) machines cannot produce fitted t-shirts. Though I personally think fitted t-shirts are just a false idol anyway. Like, you _think_ you want them, but you probably actually don't. They're uncomfortable, hotter, and they don't even flatter you much. The only thing that really matters imo is having fitted *sleeves*, which most cheap t's lack, and which is actually the biggest visual clue of whether a t-shirt looks fitted or not.
@TheGrzzi
@TheGrzzi 2 года назад
@@36424567254 you re probably right that the sleeves part getting right is very important. I dont want super slim or tight, too close to body cut, just a few cm less of a circumference at the opening then at the chest. Looks better for me. I got some not so great quality old Abercrombie tees and they fit great ( their old muscle fit ). Newer boxy fit I dont like.
@Phlegm_Thrower
@Phlegm_Thrower 2 года назад
I might've missed it but it doesn't look like you mention the material at all. I have a couple of loopwheel cotton t-shirts, and they don't cost anywhere near $100. T-shirt has the simplest construction compared to button up shirts or jackets. So in my opinion, unless the t-shirt is made out of expensive material like merino, I wouldn't pay that much for loopwheel weave or slubbiness.
@Snail_Nailz
@Snail_Nailz 2 года назад
Mind sharing the brand of ur loopwheels? I’ve been wanting to try one for ever but just can’t pull the plug on $100+
@Phlegm_Thrower
@Phlegm_Thrower 2 года назад
@@Snail_Nailz no brand, it was an anime tshirt I bought in Japan. lol
@realdonlee
@realdonlee Год назад
Great vid! For anyone looking for an affordable alternative, MUJI actually sells 100% organic cotton jersey loop wheel tees in two packs for I think about $10 USD
@tomasparra720
@tomasparra720 Год назад
Loopwheel cannot cost 10$ Maybe you are talking about tubular t-shirts, that's a different thing.
@kyleschroeder7746
@kyleschroeder7746 2 года назад
Does David know that that he’s wearing a sweatshirt from the US Air Force Academy? Go Falcons!
@shirayasha
@shirayasha 2 года назад
cool video
@bcross9109
@bcross9109 2 года назад
lack of a side seam makes me think you just can't tell if gets twisted in the wash lol
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
There's always a naysayer!
@minnesota-hk1vp
@minnesota-hk1vp 2 года назад
Probably the wrong video to ask this question but would you review more loafers….maybe tods
@itsZdan
@itsZdan 2 года назад
around 40 seconds in, top left "sourse" :\
@1ns0mniac
@1ns0mniac 2 года назад
For it to shrink after the first wash? hmmmm
@Dominicreviews
@Dominicreviews 2 года назад
Hey Nick. Your recommendations scrolled a little too fast
@davidmun1601
@davidmun1601 2 года назад
I am sure those are some great shirts. If you can afford them, who am I to stop you, but for me, it will have to be a big no.
@jnice6952
@jnice6952 Год назад
I like the concept but it think the shirt looks bad. Looks like a bag no tapper to it at all.
@minnesota-hk1vp
@minnesota-hk1vp 2 года назад
Cool! I can understand because cheap shirts just don’t last!
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
Yeah there's a practical purpose to these!
@christiandenton2304
@christiandenton2304 2 года назад
No way 30 to 40 euro is more than enough for a good quality t-shirt.
@robertomugabe11
@robertomugabe11 2 года назад
10 dollar max
@abcthecamper1799
@abcthecamper1799 2 года назад
It looks ugly.. send it to me ill get rid of it.. jokes aside, great video.. Im spending around 40$ (from asket) for one t-shirt.. 100$ is a little too much for me :D but it looks high quality and fits great on you.
@rimaarts
@rimaarts 6 месяцев назад
Real mccoys has so weird sizing on sweatshirts. Nothing between 45 and 55 inch chest loopwheel sweatshirt. Like seriously?? Didnt you miss like 2 sizes? And nowhere to try ballpark on...
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 6 месяцев назад
i can't pretend to understand japanese sizing, fortunately a lot of western brands doing loopwheel these days!
@bryanguest2807
@bryanguest2807 Год назад
Thanks Nick. Now I need a $100 slubby loopwheeled tshirt to match my $400 neppy, slubby, 23oz denim. My wife will probably divorce me.
@Stridewise
@Stridewise Год назад
hahahah dude it'll fit you sooo well with time I just got Tanuki's white tee, which isn't loopwheel but it's cheaper and good
@davidallen346
@davidallen346 8 месяцев назад
Well Nike charged $35 a t-shirt so ✔️👕
@bubbie23jw
@bubbie23jw 2 года назад
You may have the best job in the world?
@NISHUGARVU
@NISHUGARVU 2 года назад
Ghanta 100$
@maurice5402
@maurice5402 2 года назад
Honestly I don't see why anyone would ever spend that amount of money on a t-shirt. If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't.
@djhungzilla
@djhungzilla 2 года назад
Agree this is insanity
@abcthecamper1799
@abcthecamper1799 2 года назад
ebay is a great place to steal some stuff like this for cheaper..
@fontainenick
@fontainenick 2 года назад
I mean, the video is about why someone would buy one. That's all I would wear if I was a millionaire, lol.
@LeadLeftLeon
@LeadLeftLeon 2 года назад
Ofc 1 million isn’t much money at all
@ginger9049
@ginger9049 Год назад
You can get loopwheel tees for like 25 bucks. I think the hype around Japanese imports is great but certainly exaggerated when it comes to basic garments like this.
@cainman5807
@cainman5807 Год назад
I vote no on a T shirt that’s $100
@26155101
@26155101 19 дней назад
Looks like a gap shirt
@colmcgillveray1010
@colmcgillveray1010 2 года назад
Most Fruit of the Loom Ts are Loopwheeled, folks... Keep an eye out and pay attention.
@tomasparra720
@tomasparra720 2 года назад
No they are not 😅
@tomasparra720
@tomasparra720 2 года назад
Tubular T-shirt it's not the same that loopwheeled
@uniquemeek5520
@uniquemeek5520 2 года назад
I would much rather have a 6$ disposable t shirt from Walmart. There’s no reason to spend that much on a shirt unless it’s like cashmere.
@fontainenick
@fontainenick 2 года назад
Yeah keep that SE Asia slave labor market going eh?
@fontainenick
@fontainenick 2 года назад
@@S-A-M. No, I am saying to quit giving money to the fast fashion industry in general. I don't want to give any more money to such a terrible industry. None of this stuff in made in NYC by the way.
@aamirh3567
@aamirh3567 Год назад
so you gonna keep buying disposable clothes that put more strain on the environment? nice
@alexandrospapavasileiou1799
@alexandrospapavasileiou1799 2 года назад
Absolutely NOT😁
@sisleymichael
@sisleymichael 2 года назад
A $100 t-shirt? As P.T. Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every day." Seriously, I could buy a lot of t-shirts for that price, some socks, underwear, Wrangler jeans, and a nice shirt.
@phillycheaseman
@phillycheaseman 2 года назад
Why are you watching this then? If you’re buying Wrangler jeans then you obviously are on the wrong channel
@fontainenick
@fontainenick 2 года назад
And all of these (probably Walmart) cheap things you are buying are made by someone making starvation wages in SE Asia somewhere. These quality items are made by people who want to be making them and really will last so much longer than the 'fast fashion' garments that will just end up in a landfill.
@martintanz9098
@martintanz9098 2 года назад
Sorry, but no. Maybe worth paying a bit more for better quality, but $100 for a T shirt? No way. This isn't a pair of boots that will last a couple of decades if maintained and repaired from time to time. T shirts are supposed to be disposable.
@Zelinc
@Zelinc 2 года назад
Are they though? Or is this what the world has come to where t-shirts are disposable?
@martintanz9098
@martintanz9098 2 года назад
​@@Zelinc it may be what the world has come to, but I am going to say yes, as far back as I can remember, which is back to the 1970s. It was, and is a low cost, moderate quality item not really made for longevity. If you wanted quality in outerwear, you chose to wear something other than a T shirt. Like, perhaps a a polo shirt, or a button down. Or even a light weight sweater. And as far as I can tell, before the 1960s, with very few exceptions, T shirts were more or less considered underwear, so the undergarments men wore in the 1950s or before are really not the same garments we are talking about today..
@dm9078
@dm9078 2 года назад
No I am not!
@Stridewise
@Stridewise 2 года назад
oh yes you are!
@Daniel-df7fz
@Daniel-df7fz 2 года назад
£100 for one loopwheel t- shirt or £10 for ten uniqlo t-shirts......the heritage sjws might go crazy ;-)
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