@@priyabarlota5137 The mindset of HYBE is that when you come to the company, you're already expected to be GREAT. They think that you shouldn't need vocal lessons if you get into HYBE (at least from my observations). Thus, the lack of training in singing.
@@iloveyouiwantyouseokmattchu that sounds like a very arrogant mindset tbh. like, sm has kind of that mindset as well, but they at least have good vocal coaches under them, or at the very least idols who are talented enough singers to teach the basics to other trainees. dunno if i can say the same about hybe.
@@nylawalker1629 exactly, just like I have no issue with some idols lipsynching or going out of tune because I know from evidence that they can sing well. Except Yunjin n Eunchae, none of them has proven they can do even the bare minimum vocally.
@@yullovelevolluy Going out of tune I understand but not lip syncing. I can be fine with a loud backtrack, but not lip sync. At least with a loud backtrack, I know that they're at least putting in the effort to do their job, but lip sync I have a problem with. You become a glorified dance crew at that point.
Baekhyun, one of the main vocalists of EXO still goes to vocal lessons. He talked about it in bubble days ago (sometimes he takes vocal lessons past midnight). Despite his busy schedule he makes time for it so I don't know what's the excuse of other idols for not making an effort to improve their vocal 😐
Woow.... That's called dedication. If an idol is actually dedicated to improve they will manage their things on their own whether their company will care or not.
I’m having a Deja vu, cuz I saw the same comment months ago… it’s just weird to see it again. it all comes down to their labels. Hybe doesn’t really have good vocalists, even as a parent company, it seems like every group under that label is hard focused on dancing. I’ve heard that only jungkook, jiwon, chaewon and yunjin have actual decent vocals… but rly? Only 4 individuals?? None of them are even close to someone like Wendy so that says a lot
"encore stages should be fun, it's to celebrate their win". the thing is they are neither singing decently nor having fun, they look nervous and uncomfortable as hell.
Imagine having to be scared because you just won an award... it's so sad what the industry has become. And I'm not blaming the idols for this, it's a problem with the companies. If all companies gave their idols as much vocal training as SM does (or at least used to do) they would be more than capable to give fun encores, especially since they're not even expected to perform the choreo.
@@ike7484no one (especially not the companies) are forbidding idols from taking vocal lessons though. Many great vocalists have shared that they're taking lessons outside of their companies because they want to improve. All of these idols are mad rich and spend thousands every month on luxury brands. It could be harsh to say but the mediocrity comes from them
@@loupiote2315 It is true that some idols take vocal lessons on their own initiative, but I disagree with the idea that it should be a necessity left to them. The companies are the ones making big bucks in this industry, for their levels of fame most idols earn surprisingly little and have very little free time. You can also rest assured that if you see an idol flashing a luxury bag with the brand name plastered all over it they did not spend their own money on it, but are most likely getting paid (or rather their management is) to promote it. Of course for an independet artist or someone looking to get signed in the first place it is another thing, then I would agree it is fully their responsibility to take vocal lessons.
Not every idol needs to have the vocal abilities of Lily, Haewon, or Wendy. It's not necessary. However, failing to perform one's own songs properly on the live stage is deceitful. More importantly, the blame should go to the company behind, not to each member.
Yeah, but we can't forget that some idols have some sort of agency. If Yunjin can write and release her own songs the idols can seek vocal lessons on their own. They have the money
@@TeefsFm that's something i believe as well. idols like baekhyun for example have said they've looked for vocal coaches, and this was a little before he even had the seniority he has now. also, if sakura can do crochet in between schedules, which is a notoriously time-consuming hobby, im sure she can squeeze a vocal lesson once or twice a week.
4:35 OMG THANK YOU! I’ve seen so many people saying “encores are supposed to be fun, don’t take it so seriously” but they don’t get that it’s gonna be more fun for the audience if they sound good and look confident!!
Encore stages aren’t supposed to catastrophically suck. I’ve had to argue with so many hybe stans on this issue and it just feels nice to be validated.
Plus le sserafim is damn near a 2yr old group and have struggled since debut to carry basic notes. All their encores go viral for bad reasons and atp the entire group feels like a scam.
@@jaegabyeonhae that one too but there was an unforgiven one where eunchae sounded worse than she did in the viral one and sakura sounded the same yet they said it was the good one
If they were good enough in other encores, there's no reason for the fans to say that. A good group won't be questioned just bc they perform bad once, and vice versa.
Personally I don't care if Idols aren't all Sohyang level of vocalists, they don't have to be to sound decent. Especially when you factor in the choreography. But the least they can do is somewhat stay on pitch when just standing there, that's really not too much to ask.
@@user23q0 they're not terrible but not amazing either, Itzy is not a vocal group, is a dance group but all of them are kinda stable and her encores are not that bad compare to others.
@@user23q0 basically all the members can sing their own parts comfortably, even if they aren't main vocal material. which works for them since they're a very performance focused group and they're very commited to sing live.
I think the bare minimum for a music group should be decent vocals... a "dance based group" just makes me roll my eyes because if thats what companies or fans want to focus on them maybe they should just make or support a dance troupe. So many groups/idols have worked to improve themselves over time, if anything a group SHOULD only get better and better the further into their career they are. It's honestly just dissapointing as a fan
Stans are kidding themselves. People don't buy albums because they like their dance. Dance groups doesn't have this large fanbases. If idols don't have the basic requirements of a music group, they shouldn't have the privileges.
well tbh kpop idols play into it as well 😂 every time they notice they sound like shit they touch their ear piece like how Jimin did in that one encore stage.. I notice it every time
or “it’s not in their vocal range” when i read this type of comments i laugh till my eyes pop, like why company gives them lines if it’s not in their vocal range and it’s just sad
@@texhnlyze6892Someone can be talented in something other than vocals. Vocal coaches can actually do a lot, however, what is needed is basic vocal knowledge.
@@Supernovaex nah! With so much vocal backlash, instead of bringing good vocal coaches to their artist, they buy already good vocalist ( SM share) then Whenever someone say, Hybe is not all rounder, they sucks in vocal, Hybe stans will say, gurl we have Taeyeon, Changmin, ChenBeakSoo( oops they left SM) ".
I don’t expect the new idols to be top vocals, but being able to sing a little bit without straining, going out of tune and breath as the least I ask them since they are also “singers”. But currently they are working harder and harder to became brand embassador, their main job right now is fashion 😂
Most kpop idols are not even proficient at singing. Even when we look back to 2nd & 3rd gens. But the 4th & currently 5th gens are worse in comparison. At least we got Taeyeon, Hyolyn, Luna, Eunji, Yuju & Wendy as the benchmarks for their respective generations. Now, not as many.
@@mohamadfirdausbinmat2577 but as you said, in the past, yuri/sooyoung/victoria were not lead vocal material, but could at least sing their part without feeling nervous
@@robertalys8280I don't listen to Le Sserafim for their live vocals necessarily. I like their style, music, and uniqueness. Something different that has been lacking in the industry for a few years now. I'm sick of Itzy not trying to do different things. I'm sick of the new stuff all these top-level groups have been putting out. and I'm already sick fo 5th gen gg's and we haven't even really seen them in action yet. All I know is I will be forever binging Dreamcatcher and Red Velvet.
That's why second gen kpop is the golden era. They're not only capable of singing 100% live, but they also have some of the strongest dancers in the industry, e.g. Hyoyeon, taemin, hyolyn, etc.
Totally!! I miss the 2nd gen era! Every group was distinct, they were gd singing live and awesome on stages performing with passion & u can see they enjoyed the stage so much!! Now groups r just going through the choreography strictly..n lip syncing 😢
there are a lot of unbelievable talents in 2nd gen, including dancers (i would like to bring up victoria and luna of f(x)) but especially vocalists. the choreos for many second gen groups, especially girl groups, weren’t always very demanding so many idols didn’t get to show their true skills. i think third gen was a transitional period which focused more on a mix of visuals, performance, and vocals. so you had groups like seventeen, red velvet, etc. who each have a couple of strong vocalists are able to come together greatly as a full group. a group like exo or mamamoo is a standout from earlier third gen. now the standard in kpop is very demanding dances and little to no vocal training lol. and even in songs with simple choreos or even none at all, so many fourth gen groups still struggle. i would say this likely has to do with the popularity of social media, and especially tiktok, so companies are a lot more focused on visuals and dancing rather than vocals cuz u can edit vocals to all hell, but not really dancing. and bighit specifically has never stood out with their vocalists in any generation to be honest 😭
@@no1meu Luna really is the full package. She's a dancer with one of the strongest vocals in Kpop. Speaking of girl groups choreo, many of them dance in heels so it's impossible to do difficult choreos. Many of them also sing 100% live so I'd imagine it's incredibly difficult to sing while dancing in heels, for example Sistar. Recent generations don't really do mature concepts so there's no need to dance in heels, which makes it possible to have harder choreos.
For me it's the company's fault actually. The screening process should be enough to know their capabilities. Why debut a trainee that lacks the ability to sing at least decently (unless if he or she is a rapper role). They rely too much on vocal altering technology and rush trainees to debut just to make profit and when the idol's vocals gets exposed they get hate and backlash. But at the end of the day they still get $$$ at the expense of their mental health from all the criticism they get.
I half agree half disagree. Companies need to stop debuting people as idols if they can’t even sing at least a little decent yet but also sometimes these idols have the money and ability to get their own vocal coaches to help them but they just don’t want to improve
Fans are partially to blame too. They will keep supporting groups, spending money on groups all because of stan culture. It's the fans who don't care about vocals
I think there’s no excuses for sounding this bad on your own songs. It’s one thing for doing a cover, it’s whole PROBLEM when you can’t sing your own songs as you did in studio. I think their company uses autotune live in their recordings therefore the girls don’t actually know what they sound like WITHOUT being tuned. If my theory is true, then this explains why they sound so bad during encore stages- they don’t know what they sound like without the polish of vocal filters. I really wish this group and others would get a grip already. Cause at this point idols are starting to look like glorified karaoke singers who dance well. *Just to clarify!!!* The reason that I have the theory that I do is because anyone who’s taken any form of traditional music classes I.e. choir, band, or even training under these companies- you should know BASIC music theory and should be able to find the correct pitch, tone, and display a level of control over your vocal instrument etc. There’s no reason why Yunjin, who’s a whole trained opera singer, is struggling in the capacity that she is. Let alone the rest of the members with the excuses of Eunchae & Kazuha who had no formal onstage background in regards to singing predubt. For Yunjin, Sakura, & Chaewon there’s no excuses for when they’re lacking. Especially Sakura being that she’s been in the industry so long, you’d think she’d been grew out of her teenage like insecurities and learned how to maintain a note or two. Yunjin as I said has some slip ups herself but nothing as egregious or frustrating. Chaewon often struggle with breath control at times and that leads to her pushing notes she doesn’t have to force at times but again, nothing too egregious or as noticeable as the issues with Sakura. All three struggle with their techniques in different ways. As for the latter two, Eunchae is developing surprisingly well but also struggles with breath support and tonality. Kazuhua has similar issues to Sakura however because she hasn’t been an entertainer for as long as Sakura, time and development is on her side. I hope she starts finding her own vocal color soon by emulating some of her favorite singers, her voice will grow beautifully once she starts practicing that.
If that's true the companies are really setting their idols up for failure... like what do you think is gonna happen?? Your theory seems plausible ngl and I really hope things will change. I think it's amazing when idols take initiative and improve with an external vocal coach but I also understand that they have incredibly busy schedules. It's on the company to offer the free time or even better vocal lessons and it's on the idol to take that opportunity and do their best.
exactly kind of weird seeing them struggling to correct their pitch of their own songs. people should watch exo's behind the scene recording session and you will see how they correcting/finding their pitch for better voice placement/projection by hearing the notes thru piano keys.
i agree with you but im kind of tired of ppl calling yunjin a trained opera singer - she learned operatic technique (and learnt it well) for a musical but iirc she hasnt further studied or taken up work with classical/opera. same with haseul, people call her an opera singer and she does have pretty good technique but she never worked as one or studied opera, she had an interest in opera and did choir in school.
@@inquisitvem6723 EXO can lipsync their entire career but people will still believe that they have top tier vocals. I mean it's still them singing on the lipsync track. You can't fake those vocal acrobatics (prominent vibrato, crazy riffs & runs, vocal control) with technology from their early days. While LSF music is 99% always straight tone which is very easy to manipulate with technology to make it sound good.
If you hear exo's music you can easily say that they don't lipsync ,they talk and laugh and change lyrics too ,if they lipsync once doesn't mean they will do it every time,and you can hear them singing with no music many times,their vocals are no doubt,please be fair @@inquisitvem6723
I feel like its hybe fault. That company has zero knowledge about vocal range and vocals in general. They be like "one vocal range for all idols" , chaewon's vocal range is high but they still ask her to sing low vocal song to set her up and same goes with taehyung whose vocal range is deep but he was forced to sing high vocal range songs. Nobody is asking ssera girlies to hit a note like mariah carrey ,the least they could do is sing their own song decently and confidently especially when the song is literally easy to sing.
I'd rather listen to o.o, at least the girlies in nmixx can actually sing while le sserafim girlies had had to rely on autotune in order to sound decent.
an excuse that i frankly don't like for the lsfm encore is that 'this song is too low' when it's literally the comfortable talking range. it was a poorly done encore and fans and nonfans alike should be able to move on from it without creating a myriad of excuses for why it's bad or constantly bringing it up for years to come as a drag.
Easy actually is a bit too low for them. Most idols actually have pretty limited technique for their lower register. Only a few 4th gen female idols actually have good techniques like Yuqi and Ningning. And Yuqi is mainly because she's a contralto.
The point is, if the company knows the girls have limited range, then find a song that actually fits their vocal capability. So they can at least sing it live. A good example for a group with limited technique but know their capability is Itzy. They always go for something that will help their stylistic singing shine instead of their technique. However, groups these days tend to choose complex vocal arrangements and ends up with very monotone singing because the song is too hard to sing. Along with complex choreo. And then you'd expect them to be able to sing live 😂
@@notmyname3556 i'm going to have to disagree with you here because even a soprano with 6 weeks of training would be able to easily (sorry no pun intended) sing the 'yeah i make this look easy~~~~' refrain. a song with a similar standing note in the chorus would be gidle's oh my god (funfact: the extended note for 'easy~~~' is higher than 'sky' in oh my god's 'she took me to the sky~~~. it's a C4 in lsfm's song vs a B3 in gidle's song) and all the members (okay well 50/50 on if shuhua would be able to sing it serviceably tbh) can sing the phrase with ease despite everyone except yuqi being a soprano in gidle. like i said in my original comment: it's an excuse i don't like. i can understand them struggling with some of the verses because some of the notes are genuinely quite low, but the fact that they make even the chorus/refrain of the song sound 'low' is bc lsfm's vocals are simply /extremely lacking. the bright side is that they can only go up from here! plus, they are clearly a performance-centric group, it's okay if they don't have stellar vocals. however, the songs they are given are not vocally challenging: the argument that was used with twice or itzy does not apply to lsfm. (also yuqi is nowhere NEAR being a contralto! she is a mezzo ^.^ )
@@notmyname3556 but with lsfm there is no 'comfortable vocal range' since unforgiven was supposedly 'too high' while easy was 'too low.' tbvh, even among hybe they are the group with the least vocal skill and that's truly saying something. i have hope that they will improve after getting the criticism, i know enhypen also had a godawful encore in their second year too but took time to improve since then even though they still aren't good singers. i can see that happening with lsfm too!
this may be harsh, but atp i feel like if you're not good at anything vocally you should either have no lines or not be an idol. if you can't rap OR sing even decently, why are you in a group that produces music? join a dance crew or something.
@@B2xNyit’s also kinda wack because singing is absolutely a trainable skill, and i really don’t think training to a point of being able to be on pitch and not strain constantly is an unattainable goal to reach for someone whose paying career, let alone dream, is music based
@@hoa3901 Thank you. Someone gets it!! With how much money Hybe makes or how much the girls get paid, they absolutely should be able to afford a good vocal coach.
This part at 6:05, SM may be an evil company but I freaking love how they choose and train their Idol. Just watch the survival show for their trainee, they are so good. Even trainee with less time of training is so freaking good. I really recommend all of you to watch NCT Universe: Lastart
Tbh I think idols can take some responsibility themselves to improve on certain skills if they really desire to. I’m just thinking about how some of Stray Kids’ vocalists have been taking singing lessons with teachers outside of JYP, I think.
Again, the idols themselves have to have the desire to work on those skills themselves though. I don’t follow Lesserafim too closely, so I can’t really say much about whether Sakura puts in work to improve her singing.
I think it's more complicated... We all know how overworked idols are, they have no vacancions and the bare minimum of free time, so how can they have regular vocal training out of their agency, which is responsable of the coordination of their schedule ? It's must be very complicated, and even if they may have some time for themseves, I perfectly understand they want to take it to rest, since kpop is destructive for mental health. I personnaly cannot understand how Seugmin can do that, with all comebacks SKZ drop in a year... I don't think that's human at all... I don't want Seugmin's lifestyle to be the standard or the "example to follow", because maybe him can handdle it, but that's not the case of the human majority. It would be unfair (and I think destructive) to make Seugmin's exception the rule.
hmmmm i get what ur saying, but considering how Lee Know and I.N. are also taking vocal lessons outside of the company, it seems sustainable (same with how Hyunjin is still taking dance lessons.) Maybe they're not as consistent during comeback season, but singing is the one thing that is easier to be consistent with, because even half an hour a day or just daily breathing exercises builds a habit and works towards steady improvement, so I'm assuming the vocalists in SKZ do what they can since they're especially focused on improving their voices. @@mianmian3984
Like skz members Baekyun of exo one of the best vocalists in kpop still taking vocal lessons for 12yrs no matter how busy they are , also other exo members too nd wendy too... Caz they are actually passionate about their jobs
Lesserafim's fans are really trying their best to protect their idols. Instead of making their idols awared of their vocals, they literally went "because the song notes are low for Lesserafim". LOL
Oh come on. EVERYONE can learn how to sing decently, especially a hand picked group of people who are being paid to be singers. There is plenty of careers in dancing, modelling and acting for people who have other talents.
@@via45 it's honestly both the company and the idol as soon as the idol is established enough to be able to afford a singing teacher if the company doesn't care.
My mentally disabled, tone deaf sister is in a choir. Once a week. And she is (slowly) improving! If she can improve, so can a non-disabled idol who is getting PAID to do it full-time!!
@@stardust332 Fact! 😂 But the truth is, SM artists can lipsync well because they can sing well. They know what facial expressions to show when lipsyncing because they actually show said facial expressions while singing it live themselves. One great example is Wendy lipsyncing to Chandelier. Like what?! Facial expressions on point! 😂 I always ALWAYS find it difficult to distinguish if SM artists are lipsyncing or not. 😅
Encore stages are painful to watch sometimes because some of the idols neither sing good or at least look like they are having fun at all and its so awkward to watch them stand around nervously looking so stressed to sing THEIR OWN SONG😭
Yunjin came into her kpop debut with serious vocal chops and a lot of amazing potential. She had operatic training. It was a serious boon for her. But the longer she's in Le Sserafim the more she is going to lose that. They are not a group that focuses on vocals, and they will never be a strong vocal group even with age. They are all visuals and dance. That is the way they have been molded, which isn't their fault. They just don't have vocal training or support coming from their company.
Also, about the comment of who is to blame, the idols or the company, I personally believe is both of them AND the fans. I blame the idols to some extent because they could hire their own vocal coaches and improve on their own. Even in Lesserafim's generation they are idols who train outside of their company, and example would be some Stray Kids members, so they perfectly could if they wanted to. And primarily is the company's fault and the fans. Most fans don't really care about vocals that much, if an idol sound bad on stage they will find every excuse to justify them. There was a video I watched some time ago about autotune in Kpop and they made an interesting point when they brought up Girls Planet 999 and Kep1er. Only two of the selected members for Kep1er are vocalist (Chaehyun and Youngeun), the rest of them are dancers, rappers or mostly performers. So why should a company invest in vocal training for their idols if clearly a lot of fans don't really care about that? Hybe only needs to invest in their idols stage presence and dancing abilities, because fans especially in this generations really love crazy choreograpies and dance breaks. People can critique Lesserafim all they want, because the moment Lesserafim does another crazy dance break for a performance everyone will go crazy, so vocal training is not required for them.
At this point, with the backlash they've been receiving, even a bone-breaking choreo next comeback won't save them if their vocals stays the same. Netizens are starting to lose patience at their poor singing ability.
This is how I feel - encore stages are meant to be fun, Im happy to see idols having fun during them, but I also expect at least decent vocals too (I dont expect who knows what) in general. So while if the vocals aren't good, at least I hope for them to make the stage fun somehow.
Fans get so defensive over sakura when people state that her vocals haven’t improved… but isn’t that embarrassing for you as a fan that someone you support has been in the K-pop industry for 5-6 years now and still sings like she’s see a middle school performance???that’s literally her job! No one’s expectating her to all of a sudden become Ailee, but where’s the improvement? I refuse to believe that she doesn’t have enough power or agency to ask for or get vocal lessons for herself when she was scouted by the company. The best example of 4th gen encore stages is nmixx
The thing is its both the idol and company's fault because almost every k-pop group in hybe has a member that either strains their voice, cant keep up with pitch or has bad breath control, and clearly they arent doing enough vocal training but at the same time the idol a;sp has responsibility take for example baekhyun, he personally sort out vocal lessons because he wanted to improve. Theres no was a company is going to stop there idols from paying for vocal lessons. Both have fault in this.
It's 50/50, I'd say it's still mostly on the company. You shouldn't debut somebody who just can't sing but at the same time, the idols themselves need to start looking for help elsewhere if needed. If Taemin did it, you can do it too. After learning a bit more about J-Pop training, I honestly feel bad about Sakura. 7 years singing with no training is bound to destroy your voice but still she needs to do something about it, they all do.
I always look forward to encore stages, they help me determine if I want to see the artist at a concert. I’m not paying over 200+ for a concert where it’s 30% actual singing and 70% running around.
I don’t expect all K-pop idols to have 2NE1, TVXQ, Girl’s Gen, Mamamoo, Dreamcatcher, NMIXX levels of live singing. BUT they should be able to carry a tune confidently while they’re just STANDING OR SITTING as they sing. Plus, if the backtrack or background music fails, you can still perform if you can sing. If the background music fails and your vocals suck, I don’t think your dance skills alone are enough to carry your performance. (Like, I recently saw a video where HwaSa’s backtrack stopped near the end of her song but she and her dancers still continued the performance because SHE SANG THE SONG so the dance was still on time.) Please, k-pop idols and their companies, please lend time for more vocal training 😭
6:05 you need to also include SHINee's Replay and Love like Oxygen (literally, in their debut year) live performances when they sang 100% live even singing the backtrack also 😂
"idols aren't just singers" doesn't really work as a justification for idols being unable to sing. regardless of how the industry has changed, kpop is still a MUSIC industry. idols release and perform MUSIC. everyone doesn't need to be wendy or ailee or freaking beyonce but everyone DOES need to be able to sing their own songs in tune and sound good while standing perfectly still. literally NOTHING is stopping these idols from just getting voice lessons for a couple of weeks or months to get them to the point where they can at the very least sing in tune. they don't have to prioritize technique if they don't want to but they need a basic level of technique where they're able to sing their lines in tune and without hurting their voices. it's literally the bare minimum come on. random people off the street shouldn't be able to sing better than people who've been training for years.
While companies neglect should be called out, idols also can’t be blameless. When something goes wrong for a group whether it’s encores, fashion, etc it’s the companies fault, but what happens when they do well? Of course, I’m against witch hunts. I just mean that people should be consistent. IMO scandals can’t always be towards only the company and praise reserved only for idols. I’m just tired of some people shielding idols by using companies as a scapegoat for everything. All sides including idols, companies, and even fans need to take accountability when applicable.
the thing I notice is: only main vocals continue to get regular training as they love singing in general. some idols just do not practice at all or just don’t want to because nowadays a pretty face is all that matters to gain attention
@@goldenhourss yes! People in groups can have varying roles and interests which is fine but solid foundations in basic skills is so important to support the group as a whole. Also, personality hires, networks exist in every field but entertainment has always been a industry where a person's looks matter to the degree of impacting revenue - best-selling photocards, viral fancams, the visual position. It matters so much looks often overshadow talent. People give more chances to beautiful people to THEN look at their skills but rarely the other way around. I feel like it's gotten worse with social media skewing people standards to unreasonable degrees. Idols feel the pressure to live up to that.
Side eyeing all the fans who make dumb excuses for them as well as the people completely trashing them, but the most infuriating discourse from this is some people are actually saying that if you want vocals just go listen to western artists because kpop is apparently only for visuals and vibes. Like what?!
I don't care if people don't care about vocals, i just want the treatment to be fair, if you are gonna excuse this? You better not be hating on idols who are WAY better. They attack everyone.
Thank you, really well-made video. Kpop is getting so underwhelming and the vocal standard has hit the rock bottom. It aches me to watch this regress as I was raised on 3rd gen kpop, especially Red Velvet. Red Velvet girls have not raised the bar too high, they made it just right. I am never going to change my mind on that RV’s non-vocal line is the absolute vocal ability bare minimum an idol should have. Honestly, I’ve started doubting if idols such as Sakura even have an ear for music? I love LESSERAFIM’s discography but I am never going to settle for less than F tier vocalists (please don’t bash me for bringing these up) in MUSIC INDUSTRY as well as for certain groups consisting in majority of “vocalists” of this miserable calibre.
@@ijustwannaenjoymyselfhere True prior generation had their share of bad vocals. But this generation seems to be lacking more than ever before. I blame companies for no longer making strong group vocals a priority. You can't be pumping out multiple groups and not invest in real vocal talent.
unfortunately it's true for almost all groups, except nmixx, itzy and aespa. Don't mean to sound as if i hate 4th gen, but 3rd gen imo was the perfect mix of performers and vocalists
I think you made a really hot point touching on hope nowadays most stages are edited. It puts a false sense of relief if fans especially newer fans, think that idols should sound exactly like in the recordings, when that’s not usually the case. When you’re not used to hearing a live stage you’d think that they sound bad because they don’t sound like they “ate the cd”.
If they notice that they, as a professional singer, are terrified/ unable to sing live, they need to take matters into their own hands and get vocal lessons, preferably by someone not working at their company, unless we’re talking sm and a few others. I remember Somi crying on a show bc she was working with a vocal coach from SM who actually listened to her concerns about her voice and knew how to help her. I’m pretty sure Seungmin started seeing Baekhyuns vocal coach, if he can make that work with a packed schedule, what is stopping everyone else? Some of them probably are perfectly happy to rest on their laurels and just don’t give a damn
I feel like chaewon is the only one I can hear live. Other 4 of them are kinda displeasing to hear even Yunjin. I know Yunjin is the strongest vocalist in group but don't know why she sounds like that in live singing
I remember NAYEON's encore stage for her solo and she's just having fun and not completely singing , bcoz that's the encore should be . . . FUN 😅 Haters said that _"She's avoiding singing by doing random things on stage"_ 😂 someone replied "b*tch That's NAYEON ! She doesn't need to PROVE that she can sing ! Worry about ur faves vocals" 😂
The fact that you used Run for Roses by NMIXX one of the best and stable vocalist groups there is, well, that just speaks volumes. I hope they get invited to Coachella next year because they would absolutely love to kill it and we wouldn't be having these conversations about them that we're having about Le Sserafim.
i simply cannot be neutral in this cause darling i´ve seen mamamoo eat ramen, play curling with the trophy, lay down in top of each other, celebrate with half the gg´s at that time on the stage while dancing in a circle and even go mingle with the public while singing like it ain´t nothing. So don´t drop the "it needs to be fun... no need to sing your lungs out perfectly" line on me cause I USED TO HAVE BOTH???? It is not even a matter of singing (it clearly is) but also a matter of i donno what to do on the stage and how to interact with the audience when it ain´t a dance routine and a backtrack going on.
We're not looking for the next ChenBaekSoo, Taeyeon, Wendy, Solar, DK, Seungkwan, and Jungkook. We just want DECENT vocals. You know .. vocals that sound like an actual human being, not a goat giving birth.
Nobody is saying they gotta be godly vocalists. The problem is how tf are they so outta tune and struggling while STANDING? LMFAOOOO this is the problem w kpop nowadays or even worse now. If vocal lessons were prioritized over dance ones, this wouldn’t be an issue lol
7:06 Agreed, Idols are singers FIRST before anything else. Their main selling point is their discography. They should be able to at least hold a note, and sing their own song live decently, that should be the bare minimum for vocals.
If you can't sing well, then you shouldn't. Just dance or rap if thats their forte. Its sad that a lot of kpop fans nowadays have such low standards on singing. Dancing is a given to idols. All idols know how to dance well.
companies or the idols themselves just need to advocate for more vocal lessons; there’s no reason i can sense actual fight-or-flight fear rolling off an idol when their instrumental queues up for an encore? also being a performer is great but back up dancers are also great performers, but no one’s lining up to buy their albums bc the appeal of an idol is their MUSIC as well as their stage presence. if y’all want performers only, focus on the jabbawockeez…
I'm usually one of the last people to care about perfect vocals (I care more about the songwriting/production), but if you're getting paid to perform, you should _at least_ be able to hold a tune. I get that appearance fees are usually low for music shows, but when a group consistently struggles to get through their own songs while standing still, it gives you a good idea of how they'd fare in concert. When people pay to see a *musical artist*, there's a decent chance they also want to _hear_ them perform the music. Sure, not every group can be Mamamoo or NMIXX but even a dance group like ITZY (who consistently get songs that aren't optimized for them and are often criticized for their vocals) are still able to sing with their mics on. Unfortunately, it seems companies have no problem making their idols lip sync as long as they can keep taking our money.
I think I may have to disagree. Being an idol is multi tasking but encore stages only ask for you to do ONE thing. And yeah Encore stages are supposed to be fun, but looking afraid to PERFORM takes the fun out of it. I'm not even a BP stan but look how much excitement they exude from performing that encore.
I saw a comment (I forget where) that said second and third gen really did so much to make K-Pop taken so seriously with talented vocals (and I’m adding rap once they got rappers that wanted to rap) and 4th and 5th gen undermine that progress and I couldn’t agree more (to an extent). It’s the companies fault for not honing and improving the idols talent. The idols have so much room for improvement but the companies aren’t helping. 2nd gen had a case of a pretty face on stage that can’t sing/rap but the group had other members that could so it helped cover them. Nowadays the whole group is getting criticized. Which is sad. We don’t get Taeyeon, Ailee, Solar, Wendy, Sunye, Eunjung, Eunji, Jooyi, etc. vocals. there’s so many to name but even lead and sub vocalists could shine.
gosh imagine if they brought back the 100% live vocals, maybe we would get older idols back in the industry instead of debuting 13 year olds these days
@zeksecc you must be new here, because there's dreamcatcher, monsta x, sistar, exo, secret number, girls generation, who all built their foundation from singing. Not dancing. They all didn't go through relentless training and practice to not give 100% vocals
What's ironic is Moonbyul, now full fledged vocalist SANG LIVE WITH ADLIBS right before LSFM actual performance and still the audience is giving her CRICKETS digitally. I'm not even going for full fledged Mamamoo Encore, Live singing Repertoire but seeing them currently as soloist giving their all to stay true to LIVE VOCALISM and losing out to likes of them, it just hurts.
Also Moonbyul said that since it has been years since she sang she took lessons AGAIN ! This is IMPORTANT bc even after more than 7 years she still does her best to IMPROVE
I'm a kpop fan with the bar in hell for what I consider that should be the bare minimum for idols, but even then Lesserafim do not surpass it. Because I just can't excuse that not only most members aren't good singers (even when that's their position in the group besides visual, maknae, etc), but they can't even sing their own songs decently, and not look afraid of a mic every time they are put to sing in encores. So I really want to see them in Coachella, to see if they will improve by then, or just use whatever tactic available (loud backtrack, autotune, etc.) to conceal their lack of vocal training, lol.
Beside vocal skill, there is also song choice 🥹🥹🥹. Like... Make them sing in their comfortable range first, experimenting is good... But keep in mind their vocal skill n training😭😭😭😭 Hyb€ need to increase their vocal class instead of birthing mini album
i am a firm believer that idols are more than just being talented or skillful when it comes to singing, dancing, or rapping, and even defended some idols or to-be idols like UNIS' Kotoko because I know that they bring something else entirely to the group. however, I believe that it should be universally understood that at their core, idols are singers, even they themselves refer to themselves as such. sure, they're also dancers, rappers, actors, models, celebrities, and entertainers, but first and foremost they are singers and I believe that they should at least be decent vocalists. for me, companies are at fault for debuting basically untrained or non-vocalists. sure, since 4th gen they realized that with visuals and dancing skills an idol group can still sell, sometimes even sell incredibly well. but it lead to being this generation's trend and will surely have an effect on kpop and its reputation along the way. hybe is especially one of the pioneers of this disappointing trend, makes me wonder if they're so greedy and money-crazed that they'll debut idols who are clearly not ready. comparing txt and le sserafim's vocal skills to other groups like riize, boynextdoor, aespa, and nmixx makes it painfully obvious how little hybe values vocal ability.
Kpop should be more about vocal and rap dancing is just to entertain and make the stage look hot because just stanging while singing is boring not every kpop should be professional is they can dance well it’s enough its not a street women fighter they should be more about vocal and rap like aespa now a day newly debut only focus on visual and dance
The problem is the company. All of their groups have a very limited vocal and you really notice how they struggle to get the songs out live. Hybe doesn't have a group that you might remember for their powerful live vocals. Every time they mention rehearsal rooms in HYBE I have never seen them mention one to practice their vocal or see teachers in charge of this area. They have gyms, a beauty salon but no vocal training rooms. Leeserafim has members with years of training who have seen a decline since they joined Hybe. Look at Yujin in Produce, he was very stable and Sakura is the exception. He has been in the industry for more than 10 years and still maintains his nasal voice and makes no effort to improve. Money is not a problem to not pay for classes, members have mentioned on many occasions that the pay is very good. And the problem is that if you find that your company does not give you the tools, you have to find a way to improve on your own. We have the example of Taemin, Chanyeol and Kai who started with a very bad vocal and considering the vocals they had in the group they had to work harder to improve. And they took lessons in the company and individually. They have said and are the clear example that if you continue practicing consistently you will have rewards. Taemin and Kai are one of the most popular soloists in the industry and are a benchmark that a member who can dance incredibly cannot sing. Even good vocals like Wendy and Baekhyun still take private lessons to improve and maintain that quality. It is worrying that idols of recent generations are not able to perform their songs live. And it's not that I want idols with long and super high notes. I want something of quality that motivates me to attend a concert to hear them sing live and not just playback. In past generations we have been able to continue remembering the legacy of the groups for their voices. Because as the members get older, it becomes difficult to execute heart-stopping choreographies, and your most powerful weapon is your voice. The clear example of this is the SM artists, they are all still current in the industry and are respected for their voices and other skills such as dance and rap. But mainly their voices. Many trainees who leave the company and debut in other groups are the Main vocals. And it is because they are given the necessary tools to take advantage of their instrument, which is the voice.
Desde hace mucho me he sentido inconforme con la habilidad vocal de los grupos de kpop en general, por ello dejó de importarme "los grupos del momento" o las "canciones virales" y comenzó a importarme más la habilidades de canto, ya que el talento que realmente debería resaltar en la industria es el canto, debido a que es una habilidad que, al menos en mi opinión, requiere más trabajo y tiempo para lograr mejoría. Después de todo en una canción viral o "hit", el que mayor mérito debería recibir es el productor musical, más que el interpreté o incluso el propio letrista, ya que para componer una canción se debe tener cierto grado de conocimiento musical y buen gusto para hacer piezas agradables y pegadizas, e incluso conocimientos en marketing, para apegarse a tendencias o cosas por el estilo. Si un grupo / solista tiene las "mejores canciones", pero incluso en estudio no es agradable de escuchar debido a que se escucha la tensión y lo sobre "arreglado" de las voces y que en vivo NO ES CAPAZ DE CANTAR al menos como en la versión de estudio, entonces para mi ese idol es descartado como alguien digno de admiración, de respeto sí, pero no gastaría ni mi tiempo ni mi dinero en alguien así, por la razón que sea, por eso rescato la labor de grupos como NMIXX, Mamamoo, RV o XH, que siempre han demostrado buenas habilidades vocales en el escenario y que constantemente se esfuerzan en pulir sus habilidades (sobre todo NMIXX y XH). Creo que todas las habilidades de un idol son valiosas, pero si se supone que lo que hacen es "música", lo primordial debería ser justamente la música y el talento que se tenga en el aspecto vocal. Nunca tiro hate a grupos por sus vocales, solamente me enfoco en los grupos que me gustan y por eso apoyo el mensaje del video, los fans deberíamos de valorar a aquellos que pueden cantar y bailar bien y apoyarlos, en lugar de desperdiciar energías en acciones injustificadas e innecesarias de odio hacia otros grupos.
The problems that are gradually appearing in the current 4th generation are similar to the problems of the 1st generation. So, the broadcasting station forced it to be live. During lip sync, lip sync was written in large letters on the screen. Then, the 2nd and 3rd generations did well. Because if the applicant couldn't sing well, they weren't selected. When we won first place, giving a raw microphone during the encore performance was the last remaining warning device. Prove that you are a singer. The last remaining warning device. (Actually, the enforced live performance on stage is too harsh. The schedule is crazy. When they come back, they are forced to go for almost 4 weeks without sleep. They are in the worst condition. Their necks can't handle it. )
Source music's biggest mistake was to abandon gfriend for these le sserafim girls. 😐 How can a company be so dumb to lose some of the great singers of the industry??
Tbh in HYBE's case i feel like they treat idols like products , debuting minors with 1 or 2 years of training , only spend on their plastic surgery nd some sexy dance classes , after debut they ll be given a freaking huge promo , they instantly blows up and get a fandom that will hype them even if they are just yapping on stage , make shit tone of money for at least 7 or 10 years they toss them apart when they will be old nd their vocal cords get damaged from bad singing , Sakura is an exp of this process , she has been an idol for more than 10 years , yet no improvement whatsoever .
Sometimes I wondering When the idol crack on a song that is in high pitch or tone, fans will say: its because the song pitch is too high, that is not their vocal range.. And now, when the tone is low, they say, because the pitch is too low, not on common range.. So please explain to me, in what range, which pitch or tone, a kpop idol should sing a song?
Most kpop idols, specifically females, are sopranos so most of the songs they get should be in their range. A group that I feel really gets songs out of their comfort range is Twice. The F5s in ICSM are crazy and it's understandable that they couldn't hit those notes properly, esp since Nayeon was the one hitting most of them. It all boils down to bad vocal training, imo. These idols don't need to be some Wendy, Luna or Sohyang but they should be well trained enough to hold notes in the 3rd and 4th octave and their lead and mains, 5th octave.
Agency can give them song suit well with their vocal like YGE or SM do it for their idols even the song is hard to listen for the first time hearing,like songs from blackpink or redvelved,so they can singing their part in good way even if they do some mistakes isnt that bad. But in that case,or agencys under hybe,this grup for example,instead of give them song suit well with their vocal,agency just give them song easly listening but ruin their vocal. What do you think if u have soprano voices but u must sing like your voice is alto? Disaster.
Its completely understandable for artists to have a bad day with some shaky vocals (I actually miss the days where 2nd and 3rd gen voice cracks would go viral in the kpop community). I just have trouble extending my sympathy when they can't even stay in tune, which is probably as fundamental as you can get
I know a lot of people don't know this survival show since it is not exposed that much to the public but if you watch nct last start, one of the trainees were just professionally and vocally trained in sm for two weeks but still did have an impressive vocal despite lack of training. Some of the trainees as well werw not even traineed for a year but still good so there should be no excuses as well for those idols that traineed longer than them.
just because they didn’t train AT the company doesn’t mean they haven’t been taking vocal lessons. often times the best vocalists have short training periods, because they had actual quality vocal training before auditioning. ex. wendy baekhyun.
I don't know why certain idols who actually do have the resources to take additional vocal lessons don't bother to do so? I also think treating being an idol like a 9-5 isn't a good approach. That's not what a artist is supposed to be like, is it?
The only thing i do not agree is the nostalgia "past were better", we have a lot of "old" groups that lip sync quite a lot, and a lot of them with talented vocalist. I think nostalgia makes everyone think past was better when it wasn't, and in these days there are "new" groups with good encore stages And no, i won't mention groups who have did playback in the past or now or whatever i said above because some stans are gonna death threat me if i say something Also english is not my mother language in case of whatever
Yea that these kinds of statements aree soo nostalgia coded like realistically you brain will not remember every group in the past and if most groups sang live and stuff it’s annoying to hear stuff like this because people use these statements to hate on new generation when really kpop has mostly been like this
The keywords there are "talented vocalist". Most of them have put out a lot of evidence on the internet for people to know what their vocal capabilities are. People just don't care if these days they just lipsync as long as they know you they deliver stable vocals in a true live setting. Even their cracking vocal singing moments people just find it cute and brush it off easily because they know.
I’m glad kiss of life are here. Their company had a vision of using talented artists first before anything else and it shows. Julie rap so well and writes her own stuff, she’s got a craft for it out of all the girl rappers in k pop belle is a vocal beast, natty breathes dance and hanuel can do all so well. Also I commend newjeans too. They have promising talent and are actually improving. They aren’t just staying in one level but improve each time.
When will hybe ever think of improving their artists vocals.. they have only done media play until now to succeed.. none of the idols of hybe can be called great singers ..
in my personal opinion, I will still be bumping these groups that obviously struggle live vocally however it does deter me from wanting to see them at their concerts
Excellent review . I hope this video gets to leserafim n management, hybe... Hope they will take this comment positively and seriously. For their fans please chill. We are not their haters, we want them to do well
for me its just that kpop idols are singers. If your vocal skills are that limited and your not realy improved the last years its just not a good job for you (even if i love these idols for many other reasons). You can be a dancer, actor or somthing else. But if you want to be an idol (even as a main dancer) you need to be kinda okay at singing.
