Are Lesbian Bars Shutting Down Because of Trans Women? | Kat Blaque 

See, I'm a gay man who goes to gay bars occasionally, and nearly every gay bar in the country allows women in the bar in general, so I'd be quite concerned indeed if my local gay bar banned transgender men

i wish we measured whether people can be in a space by their behavior over their presentation. it seems like people are mostly worried about predatory people so wouldn't it make more sense to just be aware of predatory behavior and have like a zero tolerance policy?

If I hold Blåhaj in my profile picture, does that make me "Kevin with a fish?"

The lesbian bar we had in my medium sized city allowed EVERYONE in. They basically HAD to in order to make enough money. When ppl were creepy and crossed a line they were kicked out. A lot of times that would be a man but it included ANYONE who acted a fool. Which I loved because I’m not a lesbian but I’m not straight either. It was one of the most welcoming open minded spaces in the city. ❤❤❤

I always laugh at the "I don't date bi women bc they have been with men" thing cause out of the two of us, I, the lesbian, has slept with multiple men and my fiancée, who is bi, has slept with none. Orientation =/= sexual history or behavior. (and obviously it's biphobic even if she had slept with men)

I've listened to all of the versions of this conversation through your social medias and I wanted to take a moment to thank you for integrating subtitles. I love it! Thank you for the additional efforts, this video is visually striking!

I ran into this one lesbian at an lgbt+ walkabout once. I am not exaggerating here, straight after she found out I was bi, in one breath said that she wouldn't date a bi woman, and then in the very next breath, said she was once in a 5 year sexual relationship with a man. I was like, um, thankyou for telling on both counts: I don't care. I'd never even been with a man, and the topic previously had been nowhere near sex or dating, so I found it pretty bewildering. There had been no flirting on my part - she really wasn't my type, I didn't really like her personality which was coming over as pretty neurotic, and she was about 20 years older than me. It explicitly wasn't an exclusively Lesbian hangout, and we weren't even in a dedicated area for lesbians. We were literally walking around some medieval ruins outside, not in a city bar. And all of a sudden her neurons fire off and that's what randomly falls outta her. With retrospect, I think she may have been jealous about how well I was vibing with another lesbian. Either she was jealous of the other lesbian, or was jealous of me. Either way, that woman had issues.

the idea of trans women "taking over" lesbian bars is weird to me because, as a non-binary butch whos friends with many trans women and currently dating one the most common reaction when i take trans women to lesbian bars is very high nervousness. they only go in such spaces because im here with them and known there, even if i only go to explicitly trans-inclusive bars as someone who exists in the grey area between butch woman and trans man, because theyre afraid they dont look enough like women to be allowed in. the idea of trans women not only entering lesbian spaces alone but also aggressively flirting with the people there seems ridiculous if youve ever met a trans woman... maybe it happens, every group of people has assholes and bad people in it, but it's so very obviously not the norm.

This is an incredibly challenging subject for me. I'm a pansexual trans woman, who just started coming out and haven't started medically transitioning, I'm still "boy mode" more than not. The reason is my wife and I decided we want kids and it would be easier to do that now before HRT. I'm trying to avoid rambling, but I'm PETRIFIED of the idea that I might make any woman uncomfortable by being in a "woman's space". I've accepted, once I've fully initiated my transition, that I just won't use public, non-family bathrooms for years. I understand I just dont get access to locker rooms, spas, etc, probably forever (unless a lot of things change quickly and I wasn't a huge fan of those spaces anyway). I'm scared of even basic interactions I'm going to have raising my daughter, like a PTA meeting or school events, that my transness could ostracize her in anyway. Even my sexual identity, as a pan person, has changed. I have had intimate relationships with men in the past but even if I weren't with my partner, I just dont feel the same feelings anymore. My partner asked if that makes me a lesbian (she identifies as a lesbian) and I fear so much the idea of "invading women's spaces" that I just can't call myself that. I know I have a ton of internalized transphobia that I'm working through and I'm seeing a therapist about it, but it's so hard for me to heal that. It is so hard to watch these videos but I really appreciate that they exist. Sometimes itll take me weeks to finish videos because I can only handle so much. It creates an opportunity to face some of my worst fears in a safe space and I really appreciate that you make them Kat. Thank you.

The second caller immediately on the "I'd like to respectfully call bullshit" 💀

I want to flip the script a little bit: so I'm a cis bi/ace-spec woman who lives in a small-ish town with no lesbian bars, but before the pandemic there was a monthly sapphic meetup/dance party organized by a trans woman that I used to go to and it was really good and fun and valuable to me. I'm so thankful that the woman who was motivated to organize these events decided to make a welcoming space for me even though cis women like me have made a lot of lesbian spaces unwelcoming to trans women - I'm honestly *more* understanding of why trans people would want their own space without cis people than why cis lesbians would feel like they need a cis only space, so I'm really honored to be included. And yeah, because it was an event organized by a trans person, the people who showed up were often disproportionally trans, and by that I don't even mean it was majority trans, just maybe a lot closer to 50/50 than most spaces, yno? Because trans people tend to know a lot of trans people. So in my city trans lesbians are why we have even a little bit of a lesbian scene and I'm really grateful.

As a AFAB nonbinary pansexual person in lesbian spaces. I feel that a lot of time AMAB people are made into the villans (Not a fan of using AGAB but i think its relevant). Id never be told im invading a lesbian space. It wont ever be an issue for me because of the whole 'women lite' shit. But for other nonbinary and trans lesbian friends it can be. I think people misunderstand the point of spaces. Every individual has different boundaries. Its ok to be a lesbian who doesnt want to date someone with certain parts or presentation but they can still exist in the same space as you without it being 'unsafe'. Their lesbianhood isnt invalidated because you arent interested in them. And the general refusal to clearly seperate cis men predating on lesbians vs trans women who are lesbians trying to exist in a space annoys me. They are not the same. In some very rare cases you may not be able to tell which someone is but thats where your individual right and preferences come in. You dont have to interact with that person. If you feel unsafe (as in they are not taking No for an answer or are behaving aggressively etc regardless of gender) then thats obviously not good but that isnt caused by trans lesbians? thats caused by people abusing a space either by intentionally infiltrating it (eg cis men) or by them being a disrespectful person (Cis or trans lesbians can overstep ur boundaries it isnt inherently to do with transness.) Edit: some fantastic replies in the comments but just a trigger warning there are also some transphobes in the replies to this comment.

I love the caller who calls out increasing income inequality. It seems so obvious to me... a lot of the lesbian inclusive spaces that are able to stay afloat have to intentionally cater to gay men as well, and while I love a mixed space, there’s a difference between including our friends and having next to no spaces left that actually CENTER us.

I've not had a ton of experience with lesbian bars, but what I have had has been positive. They're generally much more inclusive than gay bars that's for sure.

Hi Kat! I'm a transgender woman and I think I consider myself a lesbian? See, I'm pretty much only exclusively attracted to women, but I am terrified of even claiming to be a lesbian because even though I've been transitionning socially openly for about two years now, and my name and legal gender are going to be changed officially within 30 days of writing this, and I'm on hormones (though it hasn't been long), I'm still afraid of stepping in a place where I'm not wanted. If you go on a subreddit like r/MtF, it's chock-full of trans lesbians who have been on hormones for like 6 months, who are terrified at the thought of going to the ladies' room for fear of making other women uncomfortable, or of causing any kind of scene. Mostly, the trans women I've known are apoplectic with fear of intruding, of disrupting, or of just walking into spaces where we don't belong. It hurts because it's something that we're all very self-conscious about. When I hear this sort of thing, "trans women are invading women-only spaces, they're not real women, etc." I'm always really confused. Where are they, these aggressively confident, non-performing trans women? You know, they keep talking about these trans women, who "don't even do anything to try and be outwardly feminine", and who haven't even started hormones, and who don't pass at all, and like, uh... Really? You've really seen these trans women? Where the fuck are they? I've never met them.

I am a lesbian from and living in NYC, and I've seen plenty of people who may or may not have been cis men at Cubbyhole. No one around us seemed particularly bothered by their presence. I understand that many cis women have had traumatic experiences with men and penises in general, but there is no non-intrusive way to separate cis men from trans women from AFAB lesbians who bind and take testosterone. It's an incredibly subjective task that would inevitably exclude well-meaning trans women, who are already beaten down and excluded enough from our communities as it is. Plus we have to take into account that black women are more often read as male or having male features than women of other races. The policy as suggested by the first caller would impact black trans women the most, and how is that fair at all? How is that helping lesbians? I feel LESS safe in a space where I know butch lesbians and trans women will be scrutinized to this extent, just in case we let a cis man in. Any creepy person in our lesbian bars will be dealt with accordingly-I don't understand why this has to involve unnecessarily targeting trans women and masc-presenting women.

Bi NB trans woman here. Before I even realized I was trans, I went to a lesbian bar in San Diego in 2019 and I had no issues, but then again I wasn't there to pick anyone up, I was just with a friend. I'm almost at one year now since I started transition, and having a bad experience with another woman in public is one of my biggest fears. The little TERF in my head would have me thinking "maybe I AM an autogynephile invading women's sacred spaces". I would think the Hollywood queer scene is pretty tolerant, but I've been too scared to test this hypothesis. Any recs for a place that's chill, lesbian or otherwise, would be greatly appreciated.

It took me four years to be brave enough to go on a dating app. Now I’m paranoid that TERFs are using me as an example

I am a cis lesbian and I don’t get this. How are cis lesbians being hurt? You don’t fancy a person: swipe left; politely decline, like you would a cis person. Cis lesbians don’t get to police trans lesbians, and decide what standard of appearance is acceptable! If everyone is being respectful, there isn’t a problem.

I don't want anyone feeling unsafe but I do appreciate that the second caller pointed out the issue of punching down and the hypocrisy of the first caller's arguments. All I could think when I heard the first caller talking was: swap out 'non-fully transitioned' with 'black' and now we're listening to a local complain about how ever since their city was forced to desegregate, the nearby family-style diner has been feeling mighty unsafe in the presence of all those hypersexual black individuals. Like, 'yes, once they start acting and dressing white so I can visually confirm their respectability, then will be ok'... sort of vibes. I still respect that you were willing to listen to everyone and allow them to speak their piece.

Bruh 🤯 that title alone made me pull on the side of the road

When I first started dating my current partner we had a lot of issues surrounding the word 'lesbian' as they are a transmasculine non-binary person, and so when I would refer to myself as a 'lesbian' they would get really upset at the idea that my identity didn't include them. Whereas I struggled because I feel like 'lesbian' is a large community of people, and instinctively should mean a variety and include myself. It causes a shame reaction for myself and my relationship when I hear other lesbians call out trans folks with such negativity. it's like unless you're a cisgendered woman dating another cisgendered woman, you have to be bisexual or pansexual because you're sure as hell not a lesbian.

Thank you Kat for exploring these topics in your videos! The fallacy that trans women are the reason lesbian bars are disappearing just doesn’t sit well with me. Lesbian bars ARE disappearing but it’s not because of trans women!

I love these call ins so much! So many different people from different walks of life always call in. Hopefully I can call in sometime when a trans dude’s commentary is relevant!

I actually got a job at one both for the money and to help it stay afloat. The place would not function without trans women

I am always confused as to why there aren't things like trans bars etc? Like people are always complaining about trans people in bars or sports etc etc - well why can't trans people have their own stuff too?

I really appreciated how respectful you were in all the conversations. It made listening pleasant and thought provoking

Require people to conduct themselves with the expectation of enthusiastic consent. Make it super clear this is a condition for entry. Have no fear of booting people out for being predatory or rude. Build a reputation on requiring respectful behaviour from everyone. Rude predators are what wreck your night. Not a polite person who’s not sexually appealing to you saying “you look fabulous” then leaving you be, buying some drinks, and dancing with the person they came with.

Both gay and lesbian bars have been in decline since the 80s, so 100% scapegoating. But I don't think wage gap or income inequality can account for the virtual extinction of lesbian bars either. I think as gay acceptance expanded, bars became less required for gay social life, and settling down with a partner became a more realistic possibility. And I don't think it's controversial to say lesbians settle down far more frequently than gay men. Men and women also just have different interests sometimes, at the risk of sounding essentialist. I know a lot of lesbians are still frustrated a majority of gay spaces revolve around nightlife and drinking, feeling that centers men's interests. So I think most of this is voluntary, to be totally honest. It's not as if gay men or women are more marginalized than we were in the 80s, anyway. I wouldn't say exclusivity's the main reason for the decline either, but it certainly hasn't helped, especially as queer rights expand beyond L and G. They should all just be queer bars by now, it's [current year].

I can't speak for this experience as I'm not trans but I've been curious how my experience as a cis bi woman would be at a lesbian bar. I've encountered gold star gay gatekeepers before and it's annoying to be seen as not gay enough, or the straight up disrespect of being told "oh you're just confused, just admit you're straight/gay." I can't imagine allowing yourself to transition freely and be yourself and be told those things. It's heartbreaking. I guess if one bar wants to be exclusionary than you can't do much about that than go to another one that is more inclusive

The questions about dating apps reminded me of the James Charles situation a few years back where he posted photos of himself like you’d see on RU-vid, and listed himself as a straight woman because he only wanted straight men to respond… and that was just wrong. Those sorts of things are cause so many problems for the community. Because of people like him, trans women become targets because they get grouped into the same category as people like him, and that’s very dangerous.

as someone who knows the owners of lesbian bars in DC, London, and NYC, the reasoning of the second caller (is not just statistically proven) is the same reason that lesbian bar owners cite.

Lesbians don’t drink enough , rents are high .. not a great combo for a bar .

I'm curious to hear from people in the comments - do your cities have full-time lesbian bars? I thought those were a thing of the past, having mostly closed down in the last 5-10 years (particularly in North America), rendering this whole conversation rather quaint

Just started watching but have to say this lighting/hair/art/dress/lipstick combo is all such 🔥

I'm a bi cis woman with an ambivilant relationship to gender. As someone who has felt the weight of womanhood their entire life, I don't want to burden other people with that. I don't want trans women to have to go through that if they don't want to. And I'm certainly not going to exclude them from women's spaces if they fail to conform to the standards that I've spent my whole life trying to shed. "You have to look/act like a woman" to be in this space just feels antithetical to feminist values. If that lets a few creepy men past the vibe check, so be it. I'd rather be inclusive than exclusive. 🤷

Hello. When I was going to certain clubs the places I heard were being shut down due to noise, and fights. It had nothing to do with other people's preference. I stopped going to clubs, and bars a long time ago. It was getting very disrespectful. At least I tried to be around certain people. I had safety concerns. This was in new york city. Another reason I stopped going to clubs, and bars was that I was charged more for drinks, because I wear men's clothes. I was sent to another toilet stall, because I wear men's clothes. They even asked me what I was then told me to use another toilet made for women, or anyone that wore men's clothes. That made me feel like I didn't belong there in their community, because of my appearance. I wanted to fit in a world where no one thinks of me as a threat. I never went back. I stay away from places that I'm not welcome.

As a mainly masculine presenting yet AFAB nb person who's panromantic- I feel kinda weird when I think a woman is cute and feel like I shouldn't say anything because I'm afraid I might either be perceived as a creepy guy somehow or a predatory "lesbian". Women preddy, please world, let me say it without overthinking it

I'm trans and I honestly never have issues with lesbians. I do disclose what I have going on, but usually they don't mind, and if they aren't into girl D, then its a "Hey, that's totally cool! No worries!" And everything is fine. ❤

I love this new format Kat! I'm glad you don't have to feel the pressure of being onscreen for True Tea, but also having visuals & subtitles! My ADHD doesn't always let me do podcast style things without a visual to focus on, but this was very engaging!

The real question here: how does someone even find out that a certain person is trans? Do they demand people to show their intimate parts before entering the bar? Even if one isn't passable, how do you know they're not a cis person with some sort of hormone imbalance or intersex condition like PCOS or Klinefelter's? It sounds so weird to me to even try and do this kind of policing.

I'm a pansexual AFAB genderqueer/trans-ish person and I prefer gay (male) bars to lesbian bars because I like the vibe but I hate getting picked up and I love to appear outwardly very feminine even if my gender doesn't quite match. I really wish there were more queer spaces with food and alcohol that didn't carry the expectation of flirting or being flirted with. So I mostly drink alone now lol. Also the cut to the footage of dudes with fish whenever the subject is brought up is just slaying me for whatever reason khglkgk

As a transgirl that is bi i find the lesbian community is the most accepting community to date ❤even more than other transgirls

As a cis woman who’s pretty androgynous, I’ve been misgendered multiple times throughout my life, most recently at the mall. I’m 22 years old wearing my husbands t-shirt and some green cargo pants and I go to the bathroom. I finish up and when I look to the side there’s like a girl around my age and a mall cleaning staff lady looking under the stalls. The girl turns to me and then turns to the cleaning lady and says something along the lines of “oh my mistake they ARE a woman”. The girl apologized as I was washing my hands and they both scurried off. So what I’m guessing is that she saw me entering, though I was a man from the back and told the janitor there was a man in the women’s restroom. I truly wonder how many of these lesbians who have SO MANY experiences seeing straight men or cross dressers at their bars are just mistaking a normal cis woman minding her business to a man. 🤨

I can not figure out why all these people act like the T in LGBT is brand new. They have all ways been there and have been on the front lines of the fights for equality.

I was actually happy to see this video and I'm excited to come back to it. As a transmasculine person who is unfortunately pre-op I always say it's not transphobic for gay men to reject me because I understand that I clearly have body parts still that may turn them off and we cannot control that, that's how sexuality works and being on T does not change the sexual body parts that I embody. That's fair, that's valid, I wholeheartedly respect that. But I also understand the dysphoria that I have as a result of that rejection. It sucks, I wish I didn't have those things, but it is what it is and I need to take my feelings and deal with them myself because it's my responsibility to do so. Taking both of those things into account, I do identify as BiGender and I'm Bisexual, I learned I have much better sex with queer women than I do ciswomen or heterosexual women even if my straps are pretty satisfactory, and I definitely noticed that I'll go on Taimi or stick to Grindr or whateverthefuck because I have way to many hookup apps, I'll see someone is a transwoman or listed as transfemme, I'll engage because I won't judge someone elses transition, and yes it's Josh with a Fish and I. HATE. THAT. It ruins it for the rest of us and it's making acceptance a whole lot harder. And I don't mean they are feminine in every way possible aside from physicality. I mean the way they want to interact sexually, the standard toxic masculinity you get from cishet men trying to have sex with someone they see as feminine, they aren't interested in any of my parts or my pleasure aside from sticking their rods in something I rarely ever am in the mood to use, it's just...it's awful, I hate it, and I see the internalized transphobia of me feeling like an idiot for falling for it because I could've looked at the physical traits and prevented the encounter, but also the acceptance, and the having to look at myself and my enby partner whose AMAB but EXTREMELY feminine in every way other than physicality makes me always look past it. I have no clue how to rectify this and it sucks because transfemmes deserve to have mindblowing orgasms anyway that they want them...As long as it's not in a way that's borderline predatory. I just. I hate Josh with a fish and I want to punch him for hurting the progress of all my Sisters who deserve mindblowing sex and can't get it because now people are even more wary. Fuck you and your fish Josh. I hope it bites your urethra in your sleep.

Kat pointed this out on her last video but like butch CIS lesbians exist. So I'm just so confused as too why trans woman are held to such a high standard of " you have to conform to femininity in order to be seen as valid in your womanhood" when butch CIS women aren't held to the same standard. One of my best friends is a bitch CIS woman and constantly gets mistaken for being a man but she is very comfortable in her identity as a woman. Idk it all just seems very peculiar

I'm 2 years on HRT, and I still look like a guy because of health issues. I would likely be pegged as someone who's 'two weeks on hormones'. I agree there are guys who claim to be women but it's tough when you just go on how someone looks.

This is genuinely difficult. It raises a tough question on if trans people are violating the integrity of a safe space. Ultimately that's what gay and lesbian bars have always been, a safe space for people of that particular sexuality to be able to act like straight people do at every other bar. Trans people are in some ways a threat to that, especially if you are passing, because it is no longer safe for people that are exclusively attracted to cis men and women to flirt and bring someone home. However there are also a lot of people within these communities that are more than happy to welcome these people in their communities, and without these bars, there is nowhere for trans people to call a safe space as well.

Just out of respect I wouldn't go to these places unless invited by regulars. I'm at the very beginning of transition and will never (unless something amazing happens) pass at all. To me it would be an invasion of the privacy of the people who go there because it's specifically a lesbian bar and I'm not one. Even if I were much much further along I would still feel rude just walking in uninvited. It really sucks to be ugly as hell but to inflict that on others, especially if they aren't expecting it, would, in my case be profoundly selfish.

it's very rough to hear that first call, very much sounds like how I talk to myself, I don't call myself a detransitioner but, it took me about a year and half on hrt to realize that most people even in queer spaces simply will never see me as a woman, so I just sort of stopped about a year ago, and now I'm just Kevin with a fish because like what behaviors do i have to change? how far do I have to go to be seen as "transitioning full time"? What behaviors were and were not necessary became impossible to discern, I didn't even know what work i should be doing, I lost sight of how i even saw myself, so now i just call myself gender nonconforming. I'm glad I at least don't have any literal photos of myself holding a fish I think that would have, hurt.

It’s not tragic to be heterosexual.

I'm a non binary lesbian, afab. I genuinely could not imagine trying to gatekeep queer people from lesbian spaces. I don't think trans women should have to transition at all, medically or socially to be allowed into lesbian spaces. I have never met a trans woman who wasn't aware that some people might not be comfortable with dating her if she wasn't transitioning or planning to. I'm sure there are some that exist, but lesbians who claim that trans lesbians try to push themselves onto cis women are flat out lying. Lesbian spaces are for all lesbians, not just cis ones. You are not any less of a woman or a lesbian just because you haven't or aren't planning on transitioning. You are allowed to turn down any person at any time for any reason if you are not comfortable with them. I'm sorry, but if you're a lesbian who is uncomfortable with just talking to trans women or even seeing them, that's an issue with you and your transphobia. No one, not even trans women are saying you have to date untransitioned trans people. Cis lesbians are not anymore entitled to lesbian spaces than trans lesbians. There is a really big issue in the lesbian community with cis, white Lesbians trying to write off and erase everything that trans/POC lesbians have done for the community. Even Bi/Pan people aren't allowed to call themselves lesbians because they're "betraying women" by being attracted to men. Rad fems are really the only group 'destroying' the lesbian community.

In my country there's a lesbian dating site that rejects and cancels lesbians who refuse to date transwomen and that can't be right. Also there's some kind of problem on reddit, which doesn't allow women-only lesbian spaces.

Hearing this conversation was very interesting for me personally. Especially the part about the first caller talking about how trans women need them 'to give them something' in order to be excepted into trans spaces. Personally I am a nonbinary lesbian who is afab but i dont present or really try to present feminine. I am also South Asian and we tend to be very hairy in general (I have a mustache without any T), oftentimes when I see images of 'fake trans women TM' they have beards or mustaches or are just hairy. Its very interesting how the idea of what makes sapphics valid in these spaces is based on eurocentric and white constuctions of feminity.

I think a lot of this, not taking into account non-binary people, stems from the saying where it's like "A man alone in a room with women will be ecstatic, whereas a women alone in a room with men will be terrified." It comes from a place or patriarchal undertones that, while not as rampant as it was before, has stuck around. Women aren't stapled to their kitchens anymore, but I can't think of a woman who would be comfortable in a room, alone, with men (ones she doesn't know/trust, anyway; friends are a completely different ballgame). Ergo, because there's still those undertones, women are still going to have those underlying anxieties that have them be nervous around men they don't know-to the point where a woman who doesn't fit the perceived mold of what a woman should look like evokes a similar response. I'm a lesbian myself, more on the masculine side of things, so while I get a lot of the fears, I also don't really understand some of the extremes of it, like kicking someone out without any conversation to confirm or deny anything. Probably because I'm a hermit who doesn't like socializing too much, but whatever. Point is though, a lot of this conversation reads as women spaces being hyper-aware and hyper-sensitive to any lick of not-woman being a threat. There's a lot of creepy dudes out there who have the gall to just not read the room and invade spaces, for sure, but by that point it's less of "it's because he's a man" and more of "it's because he's a creep" when he's kicked out. For me personally, any instance of these "invasions of space" would be case-by-case, because of course, but with a reliance on just…intuition? I've found that people who've transitioned, or even just found a clothing style they prefer, they'll look more comfortable with themselves. And for me it's just something I see where it kinda just *clicks,* hence why I call it a sort of intuition. Social anxiety and such aside, I find that usually, if someone's trying to pose as something they're not with bad intentions, it will be something I'll pick up almost immediately. Meaning that if you're a suspicious character, even if you're a lesbian at a lesbian bar, I'm not gonna want to associate. But if you're a trans woman, nonbinary, what have you, and I don't get that vibe, I'll be fine. I dunno if any of that made sense but eh. I could go on and on. Lol

Bi/pan woman. My deal is if I think you're gorgeous, we click, you're what I like in a woman, and you have to TELL me you were born with an outie, I just reeeeeeallly don't care. I know some others might, but that's gonna be a great big "so what" from me. My brain just tells me I'm now talking to a hot woman I click with and that's a-ok with ME. XD Trans-women still have the feminine energy, which is what I'm really there for in the first place. It's not just about looks, but it is a big bonus for me.

Accept it or not it's happening. Accept everyone as they are. You don't always have to respect or condone certain behaviors. But things are what they are only at face value, filtered through our personal perception. By accepting them we are at very least not perpetuating ignorance and intolerance.

I would have to imagine that from a purely statistical angle there just straight up aren't enough trans-femme lesbians who are regularly attending specifically gay bars to possibly have a notable influence on their ability to stay open.

Part of the issue is lesbian like cis people follow the binary idea of sex/gender. A lesbian is a woman who knows she is a woman but want to be with other woman, not a woman in mind or body but a woman in body AND mind. WHY would a lesbian who likes the physicality of woman's body go out with a trans who still has all the parts of a Man THOUGH SHE MAY BE A WOMAN IN THE MIND? People dont date just the mind, the body is what is actually real! Nobody can truly see your mind.

This is really uncomfortable for me, as a transgender lesbian, as I am completely asexual, and the thought of any kind of sexual encounter is extremely disgusting.

i'm a fairly new viewer of your channel and i must say i really like the way you think and express your views compared to other creators who share their opinions on such issues. you are very nuanced and not too stuck in your opinion, which i often find is lacking among many others. I believe all people should be a bit like you in that regard!

In My Opinion: When going to a specific type of bar, like a lesbian bar, you should try to have a friend in that space help you out. Get a feel for the vibe of the place, chill and observe, and learn from your friends, so you know how to fit in in this space. Not everyone needs to fit in exactly, but there is a general.... Code of conduct? If you will. Like a dress code, etiquette, manners, etc Even a straight cis woman in a lesbian bar would stick out to some degree, and have the side eye given a bit, if they weren't super familiar with how lesbian spaces are conducted. To all trans lesbians out there, Especially you early transition peeps: Learn the space, the code of conduct. The more friends you have around you to help you learn, the better. Source: Me LMAO

That caller talking about people not medically transitioned makes me sad. I’m a trans man, I’ve been out for four years, but I’m not on hormones due to health concerns. Does that make me “[deadname] with a 🌭”? Like I’m not early in my transition but I’ve only socially transitioned. Does that mean by her definition I should be in a lesbian bar because I have a vagina even though I don’t identify as a woman? Like it just rubs me icky ways

Began my transition like half a year ago, HRT for three and half months. I've been to a lot of spaces in Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids since about 2015, and have made my way to a handful of events in Lansing and Detroit; I'm no stranger to kink, poly, etc etc; I've been to big swinger events cuz they're a drunken blast despite being mostly Ace (let's talk about voyeurism and gender envy another time...); long story short: I've never even met a TERF, to the best of my knowledge. For that matter, I'm struggling to think of anyone at all who I've met that is 100% lesbian, despite that these spaces are *heavily* dominated by AFAB folks.

Bla bla bla. Bizarre that a movement about breaking boundaries only creates more labels, standards and hair-splitting.

These lesbian bars reminded me of the bathroom laws and all that genitalia check shit. Its says a lot about why it’s wrong They’re not at all better than the transphobes if they care about other people’s genitalia or looks I for example do not give a shit, i judge a person by their actions not by their looks or their biological sex. I believe its only rational

I’m a 72 tease old lesbian that lived in SF for 30 years. The women/lesbian spaces started closing years ago. Economics are the main reasons for these closures. As well as the lesbian community’s quest towards a more healthy lifestyle that did not drink as much!

Hey guys! I see that there's some confusion about the phrase Kevin with a fish. Throughout the call in show, we had a lot of conversations about heterosexual men who list themselves on dating sites in a way where they are visible to lesbian women, and a common thing that came up. Is that a lot of straight men will have the same photo on their profile, which is quite frequently a photo of them holding a fish. This is not really a phrase that comes from anywhere or existed in a lexicon before this conversation, to my understanding, but the ultimate communication is that there are a subset of heterosexual men who fetishize lesbian relationships and attempt to connect with lesbian women through dating apps.

As a rural bisexual woman, I’m just jealous of any place that has spaces for sapphic women at all… My options are mostly just hanging around Lowes or the farmer’s market and hoping.

Back in the nineties my dad regularly went to a lesbian bar bc "they had the best drinks at the best prices and they were full of fun people" but he never hit on any of the women. Never. And I think that's the important difference. It's like straight people who go to gay bars to help their friends feel more comfortable, or to just support the business. I think it's a very nuanced issue on who should and shouldn't be allowed in lesbian spaces, and I think my personal line is "men hitting on the women in that space"

Interesting that the first caller wasn't getting how policing isn't about what the trans woman is "giving" but about what the police are perceiving. I've fully socially transitioned, been on HRT since 2015, had multiple rounds of FFS, bottom surgery, etc., and I still don't generally pass. So I've done a *lot* in terms of making an effort (and will continue to do so), but I'm still not convinced that your caller would consider that enough. Because it's not about my effort--it's about her perception, and beyond a certain point, I can't control that. I guess I've never been fishing, though, if that's the deciding factor.

From now on i'll call every straight cis-man that is into lesbians a Kevin with a fish.🤣

I’ll add these two points as to lesbian bars closing, even though this isn’t about trans. 1. Women don’t tend to drink/spend as much $ as men do in the gay bars. I dated a women who owned a bar and had women nights. They couldn’t make a go of it because some women order one drink and milk it all night, or even just ask for a water without ordering anything! A business can’t survive that way. 2. As a bi women I’ve been afraid to go to lesbian bars because there can be a lot of hatred from lesbians toward bi women. Unfortunate but just saying it’s there.

Agreed, it's not like everyone in a bar is potential for you to have sex with. Like a lesbian bar may be for finding someone (hook-up or dating) but lesbian & LGBT spaces in general are largely about simply connecting with your community. Also it's literal classic misogyny to tell a woman "hey, I personally would not have sex with you, and therefor you do not belong in this space or in my presence." Like let women exist. I thought MEN were the ones who don't respect women they don't find attractive. I acrually saw a post once discussing how many cis women treat trans women the way cis men have treated them, similar to a parent bullying a child and then the child bullying peers. Only difference being these are whole-ass adults. But this weird urge to feel power through finding a group to harass, I guess?

You're doing a couple of incredibly important things here, Kat and nobody in this space better than you: 1) You're listening to and hearing people's experiences. You don't talk over or correct people's lived experiences and it's imperative that we hear people out even if their experiences contradict our own and serve a stereotype we disagree with. 2) You're amplifying reality and getting real people's lives on the record. Importantly, they're the people who will be affected by the policies we advocate for. Thank you! Love you!

i'm thinking about the first call, specially the question "what should we do about predatory cis men in lesbian bars and how do we make sure we don't harm trans lesbians in the process". and the thing that's confusing to me is, if the cis straight men in lesbian bars are necessarily predatory, shouldn't they be held accountable for being predatory instead of for looking like cis men? i wouldn't feel safe in a bar where sexual harrassment is not held accountable, and i wouldnt feel safe in a place where only cis men and non-passable trans women were held accountable for it either. so like, is the problem that cishet men misbehave in lesbian bars and get away with it so much that cis lesbians are getting a pavlovian response to AMAB people, or is the problem that some lesbians don't want to risk socialising with trans women without knowing theyre trans right away? or are they just very transphobic and don't want to be around any trans person? either way, it doesn't seem like excluding non-passable/closeted trans women will help anyone

About the question of not being "correct" to date a person of the same gender as you as a trans people, I think it also impacts trans men I am a young trans man and I've always had people who were surprised that I was gay. I guess they had in mind that I transitioned to please and attract the opposite gender, because I was disappointed of men (and why the hell would I want to be like people I don't like???) That's actually something I never understood, as I've always been attracted to men and never had real problems with them, and I actually experienced more transphobia with fathers of friends or of my partner than with them It just feels weird for people to think trans people can't be gay or attracted by the same gender

When that first caller was talking about trans women's gender presentation I kept thinking about cis lesbian women who look like cis men. Like... masc cis lesbians are way more common than masc trans women I think. And I know for a fact that they face discrimination for it in women only spaces. So... if the problem is with masculine women *and* men in lesbian spaces. How does that relate to trans women?

My perspective as a cis lesbian: Cis men praying on and fetishizing lesbians being constantly pulled into discussions surrounding trans women who identify as lesbian, bi or pan leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I've been harassed and unicorn hunted by many a creepy straight dude, as many queer women have, but never has the thought come into my mind to relate that to trans women whatsoever. In terms of lesbian bars and club events, I don't want them to be gate kept from anyone based on their gender expression as long as you're not being predatory or voyaristic. Also in my experience these events haven't really been? Like I've brought my cis gay male friend to a lesbian bar because we were travelling together and I didn't want to go alone. If you're being a creep and/or not respecting boundaries, then yeah I don't want you there, but again that rule applies to all genders, including other cis lesbians. So again, I don't like trans women being explicity singled out in this discussion. Also great video as always!!

I'm trans-femme and I can say that even at 24, I don't go to clubs really, period, largely due to the fact that no matter where I go there is going to be a group of people massively uncomfortable. Gay, straight, les, there is always someone who thinks you don't belong there :/ and I can't exactly control the pace nor complications of my transition either. But I mean, it is what it is really, and I'm hoping things will change.

I’ve never seen so much stock footage of women where they aren’t eating salad.

The second caller has really good points about why lesbian bars are closing but I'd like to add to that. I live in a city with a few gay bars and one lesbian bar. All the lesbian/bi/pan women I know go to the lesbian bar _and_ the gay bars. The one lesbian bar that has survived over the years has always been open to all patrons. They even have a guy's night/drag show! The lesbian bars that don't allow men in pop up every once in a while and close almost immediately because no one goes. Not enough women want that. We aren't the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis any more. We're the LGBTQ community, the queer community. Our activism and thus our friendships are no longer segregated. Lesbians want to be able to invite friends to wingman them and buy them drinks on their birthday and some of those friends might be bi or trans or men. Lesbian bars now have to cater to that diversity of relationships or fail.

Also, having the different colors for different voices was amazing--your artistic flair always shines through and adds extra nuance and clarity

i’ve been transitioning for years and i still don’t enter women’s spaces, because i don’t pass. that first caller honestly reminded me why cis women make me so uncomfortable

I’m so annoyed to learn there are literally CIS men on lesbian dating sites or at lesbian bars 😑 That’s so frustrating, and adds an annoying complication to this topic

As a gay man, when I'm listening, I'm trying to draw parallels to my own experience. In my opinion, I feel like there is a lot of anti-masculine sentiment. I think where the lines cross into transphobia is when there's discussion on what level of transition needs to happen before trans people are allowed into certain spaces. I think it's fascinating that this is something that lesbians go through because the reverse is also true for gay apps and spaces. There is a strong anti-feminine sentiment. And in both scenarios trans people get caught in the middle. I think visibility and time eventually will fix these problems very few people identify as trans yet for some reason they are perceived to be the heart of the problem. I don't believe in segregation and I believe it had disastrous effects on different ethnic groups in America. And I can only see that disaster continuing if we decided to do that based off people's sexualities.

I worked at a lesbian bar this past summer and my boss actually worked with the lesbian bar project that Kat pinned. I remember having a conversation with her where she said what's been hurting the "old-school" lesbian bars that are on the brink of going out of business is that they are too exclusionary. It's literally the opposite of what terfs think; trans women aren't killing lesbian bars, lesbian bars are killing themselves by not letting all queer folk in.

Regarding "Fish Kevins", two experiences I've had: one, was a woman who actually just seemed kinda cool, I matched with her, turned out she was literally just beginning her journey. We've become friends, she's a gem, and seeing her blossom has been amazing. The other was just a cis dude who claimed he was a trans lesbian because he was "very attuned with his emotions and liked flowers". He then accused me of being hostile and refusing to accept him and unmatched me on Tinder. I saw him again recently (maybe a couple years since) and he has since removed all information from his profile regarding these things.

Wow, this is a conversation we've needed for decades. As an androgynous pansexual perceived as a lesbian in social circles, I have not only come across cis lesbian women who are blind to how they blatantly police gender expression, but I have also met lesbian women who are still battling the trauma they've faced with cis men, whether they pretended to be trans to fulfill their boundary-less desires or not. In both lesbian and gay bars, I've been to in Atlanta, everyone has been so welcoming, no matter anyone's personal preferences surrounding expression. The only time people were sanctioned is if they were nonconsensually groping patrons. Some of my dearest friends are trans with no intention to physically transition, and some of them do indeed face discrimination and sometimes violence from both cis women and men. For lesbians, I am certain a lot of the mistrust they feel is due to projections of past negative experiences with cis men; others likely feel threatened due to the competitive environment society has placed on them. That in no way excuses their behaviour. These people need to address their fears if they wish to grow. And the only way we as a people can grow is by allowing a safe space for conversation where the goal is not to be right, but rather to understand and be understood. ❤

I had a MTF friend that adamantly tried to step over the friend boundary with me, even when I told her no. She was pretty early in her transition and those experiences really felt, to me, that she was exhibiting straight male “ever pursuing, no friendzone” toxic behavior. You know the kind. She would do creepy things to me and other people and thought she got a pass because she was a woman now (she was actually on hormones and presenting as female, so she wasn’t a “Kevin with a Fish”). After enough badgering and bullshit I stopped being her friend. Now is this the norm with trans women? No, but I think the first caller is afraid of something similar happening in a lesbian space. Which to be fair, if this individual was at our LGBT+ hangout, I probably would stop going there… Now, does this experience have anything to do with trans people as a whole, especially MTF folx? Absolutely NOT. It’s that PERSON’S responsibility to stop being an asshole. The community they belong to shouldn’t have to apologize or be policed for this one individual’s behavior. I would also be extremely uncomfortable if our hangout turned away other trans people just because of one jerk’s reputation.

"people blamed transwomen, as kind of like this bogeyman" sent me.

I mean, idk if this is just *my* experience, but I can't go on a dating app without it showing me men who *aren't even* pretending to be women, trans or otherwise. Most dating apps occasionally just show you men regardless of your settings, because men are the primary money-maker for dating apps.

I might just not understand people who are more sexual than me (which is most people) but as a trans woman who dates women, I'm not going to bars to have sex, if I go to a bar it's to meet people who I MIGHT have sex with IF we get along and there's MUTUAL attraction. And I'm not dating "straight" or "lesbian" women, I'm dating women with whom I have mutual attraction with REGARDLESS of their identity (usually bi girls who later transition to being trans guys haha). I'm always surprised by this assumption that I'm trying to hit on, date, or hook up with people who aren't attracted to me. Why would I want to do that. If you aren't into me, don't worry, I'm here for the other people here who are.

Non-binary bisexual from Dallas here. It can get put into perspective the further south you go. Our local lesbian bar is Sue Ellen’s. It nearly shut down during COVID. But I think everyone part of the Sue Ellen’s family realizes that our threat isn’t each other - IT’S REPUBLICANS!! There have been smaller and smaller crowds because sometimes people are afraid to go out.

Brilliant video. Very interesting. As a British non passing trans woman I’ve never felt super confident in lesbian bars when I go with my lesbian friends, but the handful of times I’ve been I’ve been flirted with a bit and had a lot of lovely acceptance which was surprising and lovely. I was performing in cabaret those times though so that may have helped.

My best friend hatched years and years ago and she has no solidified plans to transition because she is terrified. She's effing terrified. She has long hair IG. That first caller was terfin hard.

This conversation is so interesting to me, coming from a place of being a “former lesbian” who’s now a trans guy. I was allowed to be so, so butch at the bar I went to with my sapphic friends - I’m talking binding my chest and everything else traditionally masc except hormones. And nobody batted an eyelash. In a weird way, going to that bar with my friends and noticing how out of place I felt in a space where I really thought I’d feel more comfortable and “myself” than ever, was formative in my journey to transitioning. Obviously I wouldn’t feel comfortable going back to a lesbian bar, but I’m glad I had the opportunity to do so when I was still early in my gender journey. I guess my point is that people aren’t finished products; you might be meeting someone new right when they’re in the most liminal space they’ve ever been in. I would wager that this might especially be the case in queer spaces where people generally feel more comfortable trying out new things and exploring their gender expression. I don’t want anyone to lose that opportunity just because they don’t meet an impossible, arbitrary, constantly-shifting standard of femininity that I, as a “butch lesbian,” was allowed to just skirt past (no pun intended).

I've never been a fan of call-in segments, but I actually found this super interesting to listen to.

As someone who is misgendered with some regularity (including being asked in a bar restroom if I'm a trans woman) I would not feel entirely comfortable going into a space that's advertised (or lets itself be known) as a trans-exclusionary zone, any more than I'd be comfortable in a space that let itself be known as "straights only". Then again, I'd also be highly uncomfortable in a space that was "whites only", even though I'm as pale as an anemic mime.