You have to get up awfully early in the morning to beat Joshua's research skills that is one thing I really enjoy about his videos the thoroughness of his research and presentation
He didn't even crack a smile or use a snide tone in any of the presentation. Just allowed the facts to speak for him. That's pure, distilled scholarship.
As an English member of the Lutheran Church in Great Britain we certainly are not the same as the church to England… we work together but there are still many theological differences
The difference between Anglican and Lutheran beliefs is that Anglicanism has more different beliefs within itself than it does without itself Anglicanism is hard to understand but don’t worry Anglicans don’t understand either
@@pipsheppard6747 And even in the more conservative branches of Anglicanism, it's a big tent church regardless on how theological conservative they are. For example Young Anglican, a RU-vidr on here doesn't use the filioque in his recitation of the Nicene Creed so he's more Eastern than Western Christianity in that regard.
Anglicans (and the Orthodox Churches) are bigger on worshipping than trying to understand what G-d has said are Mysteries. Catholics and Lutherans believe that trying to understand these Mysteries is part of worship (even if it is impossible).
@@sameash3153 How do you know? From which part of the statement are you deriving your interpretation? Turn it through 180° and you add to me in a comment "Oh, your German". I would simply think: "yep, true".
@@1258-Eckhart You are ignoring the eye roll emoji and the accusation that he doesn't understand a subject that his channel revolves around. Those are what make the statement patronizing.
@@sameash3153 On the eye-roll emoji - ok, fair comment, I unfortunately can''t see them properly even with spectacles (and didn't hear Joshua's reading of it). On "not understanding" - disagree, that goes too far. The challenge was "incomplete review, what about Europe?". Joshua has a fantastic understanding of denominational Christianity - possibly unrivalled in the world - and I'm very sure the commentator was not questioning this.
As someone living in Ithaca, NY, that has gone to the same church as Jordan B Cooper, and has debated him back and forth on the exact issue of Lutheranism vs Anglicanism, it brings me immense joy to see him being referenced in this video
As a person who has been Lutheran, I have to fight the urge to feel hurt and betrayed by someone who Thinks that Lutheranism and Anglicanism is the same.
It's kind of funny, since the founders of these churches weren't exactly friends. Henry VIII received the title of Defender of the Faith from the Pope after writing a book refuting Luther's beliefs and even after his break with Rome, he was still suspicious of Lutherans or any other Protestants who went too far in his eyes. One time he burned at the stake equally 3 Lutherans and 3 Catholics... just to be fair and hate everyone equally.
@@jhoughjr1screw you. We gave you these denominations in the first place. Plus we don’t suffer the illusion that we are the best country in the world like many of your silly countrymen
I think it's a reality of any denomination that progressive churches or individuals are more similar to each other. By definition, a progressive church abandons or does not strictly hold to their traditional teachings, which is the very thing that separates denominations. Your video on the variations of Amish and Mennonites illustrated this quite clearly with the most progressive essentially not really having anything in common with the most conservative Amish.
Having gone to Anglican, United, Mennonite, Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic and NonDenom churches(And having a lot of friends who go to a local ELCIC church), it's not an abandoning of traditional teachings that separates denominations, it's that no one can agree on what the traditional teachings are, and most have an intolerance for people who do not believe exactly what the majority believes. Also, my family is Mennonite, I've seen progressive mennonites wear prayer veils and conservative ones deny doctrines of Pacifism or even basic things like the Trinity, this man's channel aims to teach Church traditions as it is written in creeds and on paper, not how it is actually seen in real life.
@@gamerofedge8111 I think your use of the term traditional is not synonymous with orthodox as I am using it. That means the beliefs of the early church. Those churches that adopt views that are new are considered progressive or liberal. It often starts with allowing women pastors, or no longer using some long held confession.
@@litigioussociety4249 Except the early church had women in leadership positions, and even the early church was not unified in their beliefs, there were Jewish Christians, the Gnostic Christians and plenty of diversity between Scriptures as well, such as the scrolls discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the only reason none of this is in the Church today is due to people ALTERING Church teachings and picking and choosing what we should and should not include, and if you think people didn't have biases that resulted in Pauline/Nicene Christianity becoming the dominant form I would highly suggest looking into the Early Church and the political climate at the time of it's inception.
@@gamerofedge8111 Just because heresies were preached and practiced in the early church doesn't make them any more valid in accordance with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. The heresies died out after the ecumenical councils filtered out the more radical beliefs. Oriental Orthodox was the onlt large difference until The Great Schism that caused Eastern Orthodox to split from Rome. The purpose of the gatherings was to determine mostly what was agreed upon, and a little bit what was not tolerable. The intolerance of heresies and heterodoxy really came to light with The Reformation, which is why even the Catholics had some reforming of themselves. Women occasionally ministering the Word in the New Testament is no foundation for the egalitarian view pushed by many today. The scriptures clearly teach a complimentarian view of sex in the church.
Finnish viewer here. Loved hearing you talk about lutheranism and the nordic region! Porvoo is pronouced differently to what you said. The O vowel is pronouced the same throughout the word. And it sounds like the swedish Å vowel. Hard to explain. Anyways, Keep up the good work, Josh! Love your videos!
Well said, brother! BTW - I'm an Anglican priest in the orthodox ACNA, serving as a Pastor in an orthodox Lutheran church in the NALC. Similar to other ecumenical agreements around the world; the ACNA and the NALC are in communion with each other and are (obviously) open to sharing ordained ministers. Keep up the good and charitable work!
Wanted to add the ELCA entered full communion with the Anglican Church of Canada last year and at the same time the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada entered full communion with The Episcopal Church.
They’re also in full communion with the United Methodist Church and United Church of Christ. So yeah they are the same. They’re all just liberal progressive heretics.
The trend amongst liberal denominations, especially in some pockets, is to merge closer together (made almost necessary by both dwindling member rolls and external social pressures these denominations value, for some reason), evident when two churches with quite different histories, like this, merge. As they value "broad strokes" and societal issues more than doctrinal ones, it makes sense for them to put aside past divergences... who cares, none of it really matters all that much, right? But for this commentor to both a) ascribe great importance to events in the last 30 years, in denominations in a limited geographical area with rapidly dwindling religious adherence, and then b) roll their eyes at you dismissively for being "American", is ridiculous. This person is apparently so far up their own rear end, they think their tiny little experience is all that matters, both historically and geographically.
You lnow those decks of cards that help you learn to identify military aircraft, or songbirds, or whatever? If you could go ahead and do one for denominations, that'd be great.
In short... You just got Lutherized with some Anglican sauce on top. 🤣 I always thought that they were similar but there are some distinct differences. Thank you for your videos and awesome church facts!
Exactly! Anglo catholic Episcopalian here… many of the Episcopalians I know weren’t very thrilled when the Episcopal church made the full communion with the ELCA… some were quite against it. Some were even angry. A common complaint I heard was that “ELCA doesn’t have apostolic succession and is very much off the deep end liberal.” Many outside of the church think we share the same theology because we both accept women’s ordination and gay marriage but that is certainly *not* the case. Episcopalians in America about 90% of the time have a much higher view of the sacraments and liturgy than the ELCA does. And when it comes to more “minor” things like the method of communion and the elements, there are many Episcopalians who find using plastic cups for the wine/blood of Christ sacrilegious.
@@graysonmyers3137 As a member of the ELCA, I'm fine with the full communion arrangement with the Episcopal Church. Many in the ELCA were not though. They felt that requiring ordination at the hands of a bishop was unnecessarily restrictive. On that issue, we lost quite a few congregations to what is now the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ. They were mostly Pietistic-oriented congregations of Norwegian heritage who were never comfortable with the idea of bishops to begin with. Yes, we are off the deep end liberal (God help us!), but so is the Episcopal Church, so we are a good match on that. Regarding the episcopate, the ELCA adopted apostolic succession at the hands of other Lutheran bishops who were already is apostolic succession as a condition of full communion with the Episcopal Church. So, all ELCA bishops are in apostolic succession. I'm not sure what that's worth though. Neither Rome, nor the East recognize our bishops, so it's mostly just between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church. I'd have to disagree with you on Episcopalians having a higher view of sacraments and liturgy, especially on the sacraments ordained of Christ. From the Augsburg Confession: Article IX. Of Baptism Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism, are received into God’s grace. Article X. Of the Lord’s Supper Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord. Short of accepting the Roman doctrine of Transubstantiation, which the Anglican 39 Articles calls repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, I'm unclear how much higher a church could go on Holy Communion. The only time I've ever received communion in plastic cups was during COVID. I suspect protesters on that point have a very limited or localized experience in the Lutheran Church. It's not served that way around where I live.
@@graysonmyers3137Sure, Anglo-Catholics may have a higher view of the sacraments and liturgy, but not all Anglicans are Anglo-Catholics. Historically, Anglicanism was a Calvinist church, even participating in the Reformed Synod of Dort, and the liturgy was very plain and austere until the 19th century. Hell, even crucifixes were largely considered "popery" until the Oxford Movement, while Lutherans have always retained it along with general iconography
Of all the RU-vid channels about literally ANYTHING EVER, why would you pick the best researched, most information dense, most comprehensively detailed, and the bloody driest channel to leave a half-baked, presumptuous, sanctimonious comment on a video? I mean, this was a really amazingly put together dissection of ecumenical efforts among Lutherans and Anglicans. It’s imminently useful and easy to follow. Imagine having inspired that level of retort from someone, one that will be useful to other people for years to come. One that student will reference. Yeesh. And “driest” is not even a complaint, by the way. The main reason I subbed was because I detected no BS and I became convinced none would surface.
I love how committed to scholarship and Christ-like charity Joshua is. Not a lot of people could take what looks like an insult to their self and to their country and then make a video that fairly represents the potential arguments in favor of the commenter.
Joshua is right on the "why i am not anglican" type of videos. Dr. Jordan B Cooper is the one Confessional Lutheran Scholar i watch on RU-vid. Definitely worth checking his channel after this video. Not trying to spam, just helping inform some viewers of that channel.
Thanks for mentioning the differences between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS. It’s frustrating as a WELS member explains the difference between all of the church bodies.
Having been to weddings and christenings in the CofE and den Danske Folkekirke they are definately similar but undoubtedly different, little things like clothing and when the congregation stands or sits
You should do a video on the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC)! It was its own body, with REC churches in many countries, and in America it became a founding part of ACNA
In addition to the Povoo Association, there is also the "Community of Evangelical Churches in Europe". Members include most of the Lutheran and Reformed churches in Europe, the Uniate churches that arose from amalgamations of these churches, and pre-Reformation churches such as the Waldensians. I (German Lutheran, EKD) attended a conference a few months ago as an observer. And felt this "inner-Protestant" encounter very much as an encounter on an equal footing. Speaking of which, what do you think of Taizé?
Something about this video made me feel like laying in bed listening to the radio hoping and waiting to hear if school is cancelled because of bad weather
An important difference between Anglicanism and Lutheranism is where one put one's focus: church community or confession. Due to the unique situation in Great Britain with both a strong Catholic remnant and active Puritans/Presbyterian groups, the doctrine became subordinate, and the ecclesiastical organization (the episcopate) became emphasized. In Scandinavia, and the Baltics, Lutheranism became more dominant, and the focus therefore became instead on defending the pure doctrine from outside influences. Apostolic succession was retained, but more as an afterthought - something natural that didn't need defending. The Porvoo communion is from a confessional Lutheran perspective a rather strange construction. To enter communion with a chruch who does not have a clearly declared view of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, would be completely unthinkable from a historical perspective. This was the reason why it was not possible to reach an agreement with the radical reformers in the 1530s, for example. That apostolic succession would somehow trump this difference in doctrine is a very Anglican way of thinking, and shows if anything how influenced the Lutheran world has been by English and American, for lack of a better word, "cultural imperialism" for the last 150 years.
I appreciate your distinctions here. One distinction that you came close to mentioning, by bringing up the BCP, is that Lutherans are a confessional church...we confess that the three creeds, along with Luther's Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession and its Apology, are true witnesses to the Gospel. The Anglucan communion is not a confessional Church, although their Articles of Religion found in the Book of Common Prayer takes on a somewhat similar role, and the BCP also contains a Catechism. Again, I really appreciate your careful and thoughtful distinctions in this video.
@@specialteams28 The modern confessional Lutheran churches are descendents of those Lutherans who could not in good conscience comply with the states' desire to make things "simpler". We still can't.
There is a fourth international body of Lutherans that is worth mentioning, the Global Confessional and Missional Lutheran Forum, founded by the NALC. It’s much smaller than the other three but many members are also a part of the LWF (like the Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus), the ILC (such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church - Peru), or both (like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya)
All respect to you there was no hint of spit in your response to this comment. You answered with facts and facts only no personal comments only reason.
Does anyone else's head explode when watching these videos? Joshua does great work, but I usually get lost in the first few minutes when he focuses on more than one denomination at a time.
@@Zundfolge Amen to that. This whole notion that we get to pick who and who is not "Christian" based on our own preferences is disheartening. 1 John 4 (the entire chapter) makes it pretty clear that anyone who professes that Jesus is God Incarnate, come to save us from our sins, is a Christian no matter how hard one may try to prove otherwise.
Another reason people may perceive these church traditions as same is that they are both broadly similar to Roman Catholic as far as general theology, style of service, liturgy, and appearance of buildings. As other commentors have pointed out as well as yourself, there is variety within both on points of doctrine. The Anglican Church of North America split from the Episcopal Church and Anglican Church of Canada in opposition to same sex unions, ordination of gays, abortion, and in some diocese, ordination of women. In the small city where I live, the only ECLA church transfered to National Association of Lutheran Churches over the same issues several years ago
On a personal note, I was raised Catholic, left it forty years ago, joined a Presbyterian (PCUSA) church several years after that, left that about twenty five years ago, then this year, started attending an Episcopal church
in continental Europe there's the CPCE (communion of protestant churches in Europe) including most of the lutheran, reformed and methodist churches. Some Nordic Lutheran Churches cooperate, but are not a full member (Church of Sweden, Finnish Lutheran church), while others (Norway, Denmark) are both a member of Porvoo and the CPCE. This means there's lutheran churches that are in full communion only with the other Lutheran churches, some are in full communion with virtually all continental mainline protestnats, some are in communion mainly with the anglicans etc.... Would love a video on the CPCE and the Leuenberg concord.
Many thanks for this helpful explanation. The only thing I would suggest by way of clarification is that the 'Anglican' churches not in communion with Canterbury in the territories covered by Porvoo are vanishingly small. Its also worth noting that the C of E has agreements with German and French Protestant churches (Meissen and Reuilly respectively, with the other British and Irish Anglicans also being signatories to the latter). Some of the churches in these agreements are Lutheran but they stop short of full communion.
I’m American and was ELCA Lutheran before getting saved in an SBC church. We attend a Baptist fellowship, and my wife grew up Roman Catholic. Quite the combo.
One difference I noted between Episcopalian and Lutheran churches in the US is that the processions and vestments are standard in Episcopalian churches, less so in Lutheran. However I have been watching Lutheran services on YT for awhile (for the organ music) and was surprised to see as many vestments and celebrants as even a Catholic church. Do Lutherans have bishops and archbishops?
I am an Episcopalian (Anglican). Being in full Communion with another church does not make both churches the same. Your previous videos about Lutherans and Anglicans were correct to me. I do not see the teachings as the same. To me, apostolic succession is a big deal. Many Lutherans hold no importance to this and mostly have a very different traditional view toward the priesthood (holy orders).
As a Lutheran I frankly find it a little odd that apostolic succession seems (from the outside at least) to be almost the only thing Anglicans from across the Anglican spectrum agree and insist on. Especially when you consider the degree of latitude allowed on things like the Lord's Supper. Apostolic succession is important to Catholics and Eastern churches because without it they say you don't have a valid celebrant for the eucharist (or at least it's doubtful that you do). But with the majority of Anglican jurisdictions holding to a Reformed view of the Supper, I don't see how AS would be as important for celebrating mass.
Church of Sweden and Church of Finland has it in the same sense as Church of England. Maybe Church of Latvia has got it in recent years. Porvoo churches are episcopalian, but some does not want the succession, in Denmark it is considered a disease which means a Swedish bishop is not allowed to lay the hands of a Danish bishop electus.
About Germany, they are not really Lutherans. Biggest body EKD is a mix of Lutheran and Reformed, has not bishops in the same sense. There are two Lutheran bodies in Germany, SELK being the somewhat bigger. They are not episcopalian like the Porvoo churches and more like the Missouri synod.
St. Olaf’s Lutheran Church in Bear Lake, Ontario, Canada (established 1876) shares any available Lutheran or Anglican minister/pastor willing to provide services for this little congregation of 30 people.
As you point out, there is a question whether Anglicanism is the same church: and this has always been the case, since Henry VIII ("that prince of blessed memory" as the BCP called him) seems to have wanted the old church but without the Pope, whereas some of the clergy were very radical reformers.
Apparently Europeans think we're all either genericized New Yorkers or stereotypical cowboys. Some of them might recognize the occasional Southern accent or maybe a strong Northern Midwestern (not that they could _place_ them; they're just broadly "American"), but unless they have an actual _interest_ in the country or actual British people standing by to compare to, standard "Newscaster's English" just seems to wash right over them and you can pass as just "not from around here" unless they check your passport or you have the gall to smile in public or expect people in the service industry to perform services for you.
Just wanna say that the LCMS has had ecumenical talks with the ACNA Anglican Church but of course they have not come into fellowship because of the ACNA allowing women’s ordination and belief in the Real Presence in the Supper to be “nonessentials” 😂 Also, the WELS is not “more confessional” than the LCMS. They simply interpret the Lutheran Confessions differently than the LCMS. Which is funny and ironic but important as a correction.
I wonder if it's possible for the Reformed Episcopal Church to fellowship separately with the LCMS. Since the REC is kind of like a denomination within a denomination and doesn't ordain women.
It’s complicated it’s a yes on some things and no on others. TEC and ELCA share many things in common eg seminary and acceptance of each other’s confirmations but more independent episcopal/Anglican denomination off shoots since the 1960s are absolutely independent. I counted 28 or so by 2020. So it is with the plethora of Lutheran denominations. I would expect 20 or so in North America alone. Had to correct a typo.
These explanations may help those outside the Lutheran faith to understand WHY there are some differences between the bodies that matter enough to hold to their doctrine than to participate in unionism. I would hope that any church body would hold to the truth before joining other bodies just to "get along.".
The commenter didnt know you were american? What did he think you were by your accent? Maybe Canadian but you'd have to have a really bad ear for accents to think that! Another great video. Dont worry about it. Haters gonna hate
Without naming people or places, I know of one situation where Anglicans use a Lutheran Church for services but retain their own liturgy etc. A visiting Anglican priest will preside at an Anglican Eucharist for the Anglicans but on occasions a Bishop from the Lutheran Church, under the terms of the Porvoo agreement, has administered Confirmation when needed. In this situation at least, the Porvoo Agreement is more about mission than ecumenism. Both the Lutherans and the Anglican retain their heritage and identity, but work together when needed.
Great video! One small point to make however - the use of the term ‘British Isles’ is a contentious one, and the Irish Government does not accept it, as it implies British dominion over Ireland. A less contentious term is either Britain and Ireland, or British and Irish :)
@@ttaibeThere's a separate term, "British Islands" that doesn't include Ireland, but as the term "British Isles" is generally considered to include Ireland, it's best avoided, with "Britain and Ireland" being the more neutral term.
I am Lutheran and my parents are Episcopalian. While there are many similarities between Lutheranism and Anglicanism, they are different strands of Christianity.
It would probably be more helpful if national versions of the denomination that are part of an international communion are counted as one denomination: that international union. If there is a "denomination" which is just a geographically distinct grouping among others all belonging to theologically a identical church, are it and its fellows not in truth one denomination spread across boarders??
Pick one per Sunday on whether there's a free potluck after services then tell them you're a part of the outfit. Get your meal then rinse and repeat the following Sunday.
The open communion in the LWF is optional or rather depends on the member church. Also the extent varies. when I was in Japan at a church of the Japanese Evangelical Lutheran (which is a member of the LWF) they did ask me what church I was from. Since I am also lutheran there was no further question. Also nonbaptised couldn't take communion. I've also never seen a non baptised person revieving communion in the EKD whether it was in its reformed or lutheran churches. Mine was lutheran and even with us baptised lutherans we couldn't recieves communion before confirmation.
Just a heads up that the phrase “British Isles” used to include Ireland is rather controversial among Irish people. Generally most Irish people aren’t going to offended by an American using as a geographical term, but particularly when it’s used by British people, it can be taken to sound a bit chauvinistic.
A very thorough description of the differences. Here in Australia the primary difference is that Lutherans claim a confessional formulation. Anglicans especially the more liberal and progressive reject any confessional boundaries to membership. Sydney tries to set confessional interpretation of anglican formulae but the requirement of personal conversion to christ is not a shared by many anglicans outside Sydney. I understand that no Lutherans would accept this understanding. The interchangeable ministers is more about the pastoral ability of clergy to work in different contexts which reflects the vicar of bray tradition of anglican clergy. This means anglicans are baised to denial of difference with other christain traditions. So in discussions anglicans will talk to every one even seven day Adventists. The only limitation appears to be liberal progressive who do not wish to make concessions to socially conservative christains. If you are not woke we won't talk. In some ways it shows how the inherited definitions of christain dominations now fail to contain the diversity of faith and practice.
