Complains about miniatures in games and has dozens of videos selling games with miniatures. People like this take money from companies selling this product. If he was concerned about it, he would not take the money or other special favor to advertise for them; instead, showcase games that buck the CMON model. Simple fix. This video is just lip service.
Pinning this comment :) I take it you didn't watch the video? I am absolutely for minis. I make that pretty clear in the video. There's no complaints here at all. And I don't get paid for my reviews or Kickstarter coverage, but hey....when you don't like an opinion, it's much easier to slur and attack then debate critically.
As a student, I can tell you board games can seem like a rich man's hobby at times. The sad thing about games loaded to the brim with minis is that not only are they hard to own due to space and price point, but they also don't lend themselves well to playing them somewhere like a board game café. So it's hard to "try before you buy" unless you happen to know someone with a copy.
There's nothing sad about it. Not every game has to be Blockus or chess. I mean one of my favorite games is Carcassonne, which I paid like 18 bucks for at Target during one of their regular sales. I also love Shadows of Brimstone, which has like $2000 of expansions available. They're just different. I don't need all board games to provide the same experience. If shadows of Brimstone was easily pulled out at a game cafe it wouldn't be the game I love.
@@Twineandribbon I agree and disagree. I agree that it's totally justified to have a deluxe experience if that's what you want. The point I was trying to make is that board games are unique in that often the full experience is locked behind a huge initial paywall. If you're on a budget, there's really no way to experience something like Dwellings of Eldervale in any capacity, which is fine for me, but could be a bummer for someone else who that's their style of game. Compare that to a video game, where the point of entry is usually much lower, and then there are more options to invest if you choose to. Some Kickstarters offer a more slimmed down or retail version of the game at a lower price point, which is more what I am advocating for.
@@MrReelio3 I hear ya, but sometimes that's not an option. You can only reduce the component cost so much before it is just not the same game anymore. Would Call of duty provide the same experience in 8bit? No, it'd just be a different game at that point. GTA2 is a fundamentally different game than GTA3. Many games can support a range of component quality between standard and deluxe versions but others rely on pricier components and that's ok too.
Agreed. Mini's and deluxified components do make games less accessible both financially and spatially. I didn't start by purchasing the larger, more deluxified "hobby" games. I started with games like Catan, Clank, Photosynthesis, Five Tribes... etc. While none of the games I listed were cheap from a starving college student perspective, they weren't $200 Kickstarters with 50+ minis either. There are great games out there that you can purchase used or new for a reasonable price. As for playing before you pay, many games are available to play on TTS. Granted, it's not the same experience as playing in person, but it's better than nothing.
It's of course not as tactile, but many games are much less expensive in digital format. I play Mystic Vale that way, got it on Android, saves space and money. That was one game I'm not sure I wanted the tactile experience of anyway. Constantly putting cards in sleeves and pulling them back out for cleanup seemed ugh to me.
13:24 "Having more games doesn't mean you're playing them". I feel like I need this framed and mounted on the wall that is first in my line-of-sight in the morning.
I just started getting more into board games (been into stuff like Magic: the Gathering, Warhammer 40k, and Dungeons & Dragons for some time though) last year. I already need this as well lol. I've built a small pile of shame, and already find myself planning out trips to the FLGS to see what they have for board games (and... Magic, Warhammer, D&D...), Or, like today, going to Target and Walmart and taking a look at their selection in case they have something I'm interested in. Please help.
This is legit the second time I've filmed this video 2 weeks after the first time....and both times I managed to have licks of hair sticking straight out. The joys of being on camera :)
Stylists are paid outrageous amounts of money to mess up artists hair for photo shoots all the time. Look at any indie rock band album cover! If you ever get burned out doing gaming content, you have a head start shifting into the indie rock scene, if you are so inclined.
As someone coming from the world of miniature gaming - your comment was my stance for many, many years. Just now crossing over into the realm of board games. Where i have a hard time with the minis is when there is more 'bun than burger' - Tainted Grail is a great example - stacks of minis that are supposed to be placed on tiny map cards. Have been used to 4'x8' game boards where even 100's of minis don't look crowded. I would say right sized and proportional minis are a great add to the game and as others have commented, become part of the hobby itself.
Great video Alex - Just to add something to the discussion. When we designed Oathsworn, the minis were only ever intended to offer players a more epic and thematic experience. They are not required to play the game properly. That's why we offered a standee version. We definitely recognize and appreciate that there is a large portion of the community who do not want to be forced to pay twice as much just to get all those minis. They just want to play the game. So, before our Kickstarter, we actually expected at least half of our backers to choose the standee version of the game. In the end, less than 10% of our backers chose standees. It taught us a lot, but no matter what, we will always offer options to have both because exactly as you said, we don't want there to be an excessive barrier to people wishing to play our games.
Some games do that... Great Wall is going to have meeple version I believe. But if I was a creator I probably wouldn't. That's like a directors cut of Infinity War without the special effects. Nah...
Not for me - I want my games to look good, but I’m not a painter and so they just end up as unattractive lumps of grey plastic cluttering up the board, and there’s no way I’d pay a premium for that. But I’m entirely content that there are games providing minis for people who want them and are happy to pay for them. It’s not like there’s a shortage of non-mini games out there.
100% agree with you, can't stand grey plastic minis. Just so happen Mage Knight is my #1 game of all time, it has painted minis. Not awesome, but painted. And I just sold my Gloomhaven few months ago because of the same reason.
This is why I appreciate Kickstarters like Monsters on Board. Unlikely I'd find time to paint the minis, but they have varying base color plastics so they still look nice. Oh and Heroes of Land Air and Sea did this as well.
I agree but I'm conflicted. Monumental completely doesn't need them and I think it would be better without them. Meanwhile, I want them to release King of Tokyo miniatures.
I have a lot of games with minis, Cthulhu Wars being my most blatant example, but I actually like counters (I'm a wargamer first) as you can store tons of them in a smaller space, they get the job done, and you can print a ton of info directly on the counter rather than having to constantly reference cards, boards, or other such things. I'd say minis are definitely not necessary, but they can be fun, although they massively increase the price of the games we buy and need a lot more room to store.
"...The problem is, neither is anything else." (Yes, that absolutely deserved a timestamp) Alex, this is a fantastic take for the video. An excellent conversation! Thanks.
I remember loving to play with action figures as a kid. With my own imagination, I would play out a story with them. Action figures don't engage me as much nowadays. If I buy them, I do it to display them. But games with minis fixes that in giving me the experience of playing with toys in a more engaging way. I get that not everyone is like this, and that's okay, but to me, minis make a huge difference, more so than standees and meeples do.
I've bought a lot of miniatures-heavy games over the last few years. But I'm not a painter and I've realised I actually *prefer* standees with full colour art. Recently I've passed on Kickstarter games because they don't have a standees option.
Yeah I love good art but hate standees because most of the time they rip when putting them on the stand. Kinda ruins the vibe for me when playing with the pieces ruins them.
I am a painter with airbrushes and handbrushes and I’ve built and painted tons of minis. And now I absolutely favour standees. The joy of getting a game out of the box and playing it is real!
Agree with everything. I also started my collection with bargains and quantity as priorities, but now I much prefer a small collection and with the games we really like upgrades like minis, playmat, dice tray, promos; doesn't even matter what price they have. To get such a rich experience just by extras is totally worth it (even though financially it will likely lose their value).
The are 649 games on BGG published in 2019 with at least 100 user ratings, but only 59 of those entries have the miniatures tag. This whole conversation is way overblown. The gamers who want games without minis have way more choices and options than anyone who actually wants minis.
Minis have the contrary effect on me. When I see a game with minis I automatically assume it's a shallow game with far fetched mechanics and quickly dismiss it.
I wish designers saw this video, but the truth is, so many people back games for minis on Kickstarter. Certain good games tanked on crowdfunding because they were well-designed with no minis. It really sucks so many games are just mechanisms to sell plastic. I just received the complete Kingdom Rush and was shocked how simplistic their minis were. I could have saved so much money just getting standees. I don’t mind the Gloomhaven route-minis for characters, standees for repetitious opponents, but I backed the Hellboy game, which included a box occupied mostly with duplicated minis. Awaken Realms makes the money that they do on the basis of their minis, as so many of their games are half-baked. It’s a depressing fact that unless your game has amazing minis, chances are, you won’t earn much on Kickstarter.
As long as consumers keep buying the mini deluxe games and looking down and not backing potentially great games without it, it will be an arms race to get more and bigger minis so publishers could get their games sold.
Depends from the game. I dont mind minions to be chips,tokens or standees, but the bosses I want them to be minis. The scale of the miniatures is another topic. The scale of the miniatures is going bigger and bigger, increasing both the cost and the space they hold.
Yeah it always felt like such a disconnect when the star spawn came out in arkham horror and it was the same size as a cultist. I had trouble visualizing what were the scary monsters
Gameplay first. Quality of the Art second. Third, a gorgeous board. Then, and only then, can we start talking about minis. Much love Alex, thank you for making this video.
Two points: 1) I threw away all the minis for Mansions of Madness: 2nd Edition. The minis were poor, the bases were worse, and they covered up all of the fantastic tile art. I bought some Cthulhu themed stands from Etsy and use the monster tokens instead. The game works much better. 2) I impulse pledged for a pre-painted set of Etherfields minis, which I may live to regret.
Miniatures can be like the CGI in a mediocre movie for a game with a not great rules set . What is wrong with standees? Standees can be two-sided, front and back and can show direction of path of movement. If the miniatures block the view of what is happening on the table, then standees might be better for a game with a good rules set. Money spent, the customer should feel is money well spent. Designers should consider the trade offs of cost, extra time and effort for set up and use and putting it all away, added complexity of game play verses the added fun and value of that level of miniatures offered. I want to make an accessible game and I am considering these trade offs carefully. Complicating this math of this kind of decisions is different classes of buyers of the game. Somewhere between coloredcubes and great miniatures is where my game will live. How many types of game pieces are good variety? When does an additional type of game piece add an unneeded barrier to entry to buying it or to putting it on the table? And who are you playing with? Can you introduce a younger or less experienced player to the game or do too many miniatures and longer set times prevent this?
I honestly think more games should go for acrylic standees. Cardboard doesn't do a great job, but games like Uprising show that heat pressed acrylic or even the heat pressed meeples from dinasour world look great. I love minis, but there's definitely a decent share of games that could benefit from reducing them.
Very good video - I just want to highlight Awaken Realms that have their base pledge with minimal use of miniatures and you can add on all the miniatures if you want to. So the barrier to entry is lowered and for the painters or collectors, the minis are also there to get.
it's really funny, for me minis are an instant turn-off since i'm never going to paint them and they don't interest me in the least. but then i end up spending money on metal coins for games and pimp my games out in various other ways :)
I kinda prefer them without paint. >.> Maybe a stain at most. Has to be particularly good paint job and coloring for me to want it painted. Still have no painted minis.
Same. I'll get premium tokens, playmats and sleeve every card, but I really have no interest in minis because they either sit there looking cheap and unfinished or I feel obligated to have to sink a bunch of time into trying to make them look nice. If I buy a game it's because I want to play the game. And if I spend money on premium components it's because I want it to look good while I play. A bunch of grey plastic defeats both of those goals.
They are just eye candy .. and we all love candy. It's just sad when the rules and game mechanics are no match for the quality of the minis . That's why the original DUN doesn't have minis, only standees.
If I wanted to really go all in on minis, I'd go the Warhammer 40K route. These board game minis are nice to look at, but without the years of lore, communities and stories behind them, they just feel empty of substance.
My hobby doesn't need a hobby. I understand why some people want minis, but unless they are pre painted and easily distinguishable from a arm's length I'll pass. At the end of the day I would rather use standies, or meeples. Custom meeples get a +1 in my book. Unpainted gray minis actually detract from a game for me, and if they have to be assembled the game immediately goes on the for sale shelf.
While plastic are not necessary per say I personally love painting miniatures so for me it combines my two hobbies of boardgaming and painting. Getting through Zombicide green horde at a steady pace atm. Would probably not get it if minis were not included.
I think another aspect of miniatures you can talk about is eco-friendly design. Miniatures are chunks of plastic. And I am sure there are some games that use recycled plastic and this isn't the biggest critique. I mean there are far greater issues of waste and over consumption to focus on. But games like Photosynethesis can get away with recycled cardboard and still be a decent game, why can't others? Or use other materials to feel unique like Pax Parmir's fabric game board.
When it comes to buying something that you like and it is expensive: "The quality is remembered, long after the cost is forgotten". The problem with board games is most people do not play them over and over again where that quality can be "realized". Games are a luxury item, we don't need them, they are a nice to have.
I got into TTRPGs like D&D and Spycraft before board games, so I definitely highly value miniatures. Not just for aesthetics and game play, but because I can use miniatures across multiple games.
I agree that minis aren't necessary, especially as you mentioned when hiding poor mechanics and just to sell the minis with a game to fit them in, yet I love big box mini games and love the look and feel of them in a good game. I love those games when they also play well and have great mechanics (not even unique), like the zombicide games or awaken realms games. I think it adds to a theme, and I love having them and painting them. I'm not a fan of meeples nor just standees, or even a token -- I prefer minis if you give me the choice in the same game when all things are "equal"
A good board game collection is like a good art collection (although it rarely appreciates in value!) - you don’t buy it for its practical use, you buy it to make you feel something. I own both cheap games that saved some money on making it look amazing and some more expensive games which are essentially over produced (because miniatures rarely have any non-aesthetic effect on a game), but I like the deluxe feel of them. I think it’s fine to have some over stuffed mini games in your collection, but nobody wants reams of miniatures for a game they don’t want to play - it just takes up valuable shelf space...
Imagine those minis in front are instead beautifully color printed acrylic standees. They would looked so much more pretty. I got 30++ boxes of games with minis (mostly CMON) and I just don’t have the time to paint them. Why aren’t there more Kickstarters that offer acrylic standees instead of minis? At least give us an option. They don’t cost much more than minis and they look so much more beautiful on the board. They are even great for storage.
Ultimately more people seem to pay for miniatures. And many people, myself included don't necessarily mind gray plastic. I prefer gray plastic mini to a colored standee.
@@TheWildernessEnthusiast I was not aware that everyone in my age range does not like miniatures, and everyone younger likes miniatures. I was not aware of that, because I am sure it is a gross oversimplification.
Totally agree. Evidence - When you're playing Gloomhaven with plastic heroes and standee monsters, you don't even notice the difference. If the game is immersive like GH, your imagination takes over.
The "hard to bring to the table" is a very important thing that sometimes we don't think about. I got rid of my original copy of Suburbia when the DE arrived. Suburbia was one of my most played games, I haven't played DE a single time and the sheer size and scale of it is the reason. We feel tired just thinking about picking it up. I don't know what is the point equilibrium between deluxe and comfortable, but it is important to remember that there is one.
Yes, that's absolutely something to be mindful of. I already have that concern with terraform Mars... But if I play that game less because of the big box then I'll just get rid of it and get the original back.
Wait what? Wasn't that particular DE one that delivered a storage solution? How did that end up making it harder to pull out?! Is it just that you're mentally exhausted by the idea of an overwhelming experience or is it that there's a physical issue with the org system provided? I was considering picking up Suburbia CE
I think it is twofold the reason to our "problem": first is that even with the storage solution it is not a pick up and play edition. It is a huge box and heavy and one have to move layers upon layers of trays to get what you want to play. Second, I think the amount of expansions and the inexistence of rules to play with them all give us some analysis paralysis on what to choose. This is just me trying to understand why it moved from most played to never played. We haven't even tried the expansions. Tl,dr, big box makes us lazy, many options makes us dumb.
I agree with you, I want the best experience a game can provide. I'd rather have a few games I love, that are deluxe-ified, than a bunch of games that are not as great. At first I started just buying as many core games as possible, now I buy a game, see if I like it, then if I do, I will get all the deluxe components, and go to Etsy and find ones, if the manufacturer doesn't make them.
Not only are miniatures unnecessary, I actively avoid board games with them. The only board games out of the 100 I own that have miniatures are Western Legends, Santorini and Raptor, my two friends who have 20 or less games have more games with minis than I do. There’s almost no upsides and only downsides with them. They alway look ugly, I’m never going to paint them, they take up box space, they’re expensive, they usually have no purpose for being there, they feel just like children’s toys not board game pieces. I’ve decided against buying games I liked well enough just because they had minis, like Vindication. I got Dune Imperium recently and I actually laughed when I saw they had an “upgrade” pack which containted tons of useless minis to replace the perfectly fine cubes in the game, thankfully they decided to have that pack separate and actually make the game in a reasonable manner without that unnecessary garbage.
Minis are freaking great and we all know it! We buy em because we love em! They are essentially special effects for board games. We all like cool special effects. Now... we've all seen movies that are more style over substance...same with games. But a good marriage of the two adds to the experience. More great games please. More miniatures please!
Alex, great video. I would of nodded my head and agreed with everything you said, up until this weekend. I just received a magazine game, literally paper board, cut out the cards and print off character sheets. I went back and forth about purchasing it, because of how it looked (even though the gameplay looked great). Eventually, I decided I really wanted to support the designer. Ten minutes into playing and I was sucked into this game, components meant nothing at this point. I think we get better and better at lying to ourselves as boardgamers, convincing ourselves that things add to a game experience. I definitely thought that and now I’m not so sure.
this is actually a question i have been asking myself since starting to play folklore: the affliction as the retail version comes with all standees and im kinda liking the ease of being able to chuck them in the bag and not having them take up loads of space on the table...Stay Hexy!
My preference would be that games with minis offer an additional backing level with clear acrylic standees. As long as they are of a decent thickness. As far as I understand standees would lower the cost, but since the outer framing would be clear you still get some visual sense of the shape of the character. That's why even though I appreciate the cost discount of chipboard standees I really don't like them because I feel like the border distracts the eye from the character art. (Except for one really cool case where the standees were shaped like sails on a wooden ship base, so the white background kind of made sense as the sail, and then you had the art on it to represent your character that would be sailing that ship.) I liked that Monsters on Board at least gave options. You could get an edition with standees, or you could get an edition with the minis. I think it was respectful of people's budgets and wallets. Just wish it had been acrylics instead. Maybe there are even options to where a miniatures level could have a disclaimer on it that a certain number of backers at that level would be required for production. Then you could let your backers decide whether they want miniatures for a game or not. If it didn't reach the number needed to make production feasible those backers could be given the option to back at the standee level or cancel their pledge. Just brainstorming.
@BoardGameCo - Hi Alex. When you started this video, I was very happy. In the middle you said that board games is a luxury hobby. I don't agree. That is why PnP games exist. Alex, I will never get to play Primal. I will never get to play KDM. I am very sad by this. I just want to be able to have AN experience, let alone a "deluxe" one. You have convinced me. I believe the majority feel as you and don't care about others who cant afford it. They prefer to make it prettier for themselves rather than have it more accessible to the rest of us... Their greed exceeds their empathy. Every board game maker can offer the pretty things separately and should never make exclusives. I will be contacting you soon to sell my entire collection of games. I lost my ability to do my favorite hobby, skateboarding, and I thought I found a new one my body would let me do, and it turns out it still holds me back because I cant afford it... I no longer wish to be apart of this "hobby" that has been industrialized, and with it, has had its humanity stripped from it. I will contact you soon. And I apologize about the WWII comment before. Even if it was correct, it always strays from my point, but I guess that doesn't really matter any more...
You didn't even mention the environmental waste all this plastic causes. I view minis like I view card sleeves: environment waste that is just going to pile up in a landfill some day.
Of course not... That same logical applied to the board games in general, to toys in general, to a whole lot more. There's a much larger conversation about being environmentally friendly, but it's not the one I'm having here.
I got into miniature board games primarily for the miniatures, so yes, miniatures for me are absolutely necessary. Gameplay, though important, is secondary for me.
Miniatures have a value in a wargame when you have a lot of minis and the wysiwyg nature of the figs helps you and your opponent remember what every unit has, and the spatial positioning of figures matters. Plus, spectacle.
Are they necessary? Of course not, but there are reasons they exist. 1. They help with table presence. Having minis on a "dudes on a map" game adds a lot. Imagine playing blood rage, but instead of minis, you have cubes. There simply wouldn't be the same epic feeling. 2. Painting. Lots of people enjoy the hobby of painting those miniatures, for artistic expression, relaxation or just making their game look better than it did before. There's a certain pride to be had for people going "I painted that". Miniatures don't make a game, just like any other production quality increase doesn't make a game. But adding those kinds of bling to certain games can make a big difference in how it *feels* to play them. And the feeling and emotion of boardgames is what helps make them fun to play with friends. And that fun is why we're playing in the first place!
I've been into tabletop wargaming and miniature painting since I was 10 years old, so when I got into board gaming I thought having a huge stack of miniatures in every game was going to be a perk. Now I have a ton of big boxes taking up way too much space on my shelves full of minis that never see the light of day even when the games hit the table. I'm so happy that games like DEI and Great Wall offered meeple options, because I feel much better about games that don't cost an arm and a leg and don't take up 3 kallax shelves on their own.
You hit the nail on the head. That’s why I happily bought the miniatures for Dune Imperium. So glad they had that as a separate option. Can you play with just the wooden cubes? Yes. Would I enjoy the game even more with the miniatures? Yes I would. You can’t put a price on the experience. And if you can afford it then do what’s best for you. So glad Dune Imperium can be purchased with or without. Hopefully more companies do this.
The answer is totally no. I have noticed somewhat of a trend of companies now selling miniatures for a game that do not need it in the least. I recently bought Tokaido and it didn't need miniatures. They just sit there on the board...and do nothing. You're just paying for an aesthetic.
I love having miniature heavy games they are so much fun to play and paint, non mini games are ok but I like the ones with minis so much more than most of them. That said ISS Vanguard I will get non mini version.
The worst thing about Minis is the massive box bloat they cause. Tainted Grail could probably be half the size without the insert for the characters and menhirs.
I would say that miniatures are 100% necessary... for the business. As you say they sell more often, but in addition it's how it looks to others on the table. If you play games at a local gaming store, or at a convention, which games will catch people's eyes the most? The ones with decent minis. Personally I liked the way that Sentinels Tactics handled it at retail: the base game was cheap and it came with tokens only, but there was an expansion that was minis for the base game. It allowed the cheap entry point, and the minis for those who were OK spending a little more.
Great topic for discussion. I have been playing board games for about 20 years and most of this time I didn't even know any games with miniatures existed (apart of course from tabletop games like Warhammer). Obviously I don't need them, but then, starting with blood rage for me personally, I fell in love with those things... I agree with you on the video games graphic comparison. I very much enjoy a lot of "ugly" games from the nineties, but then 60 fps, raytracing and 4k take gaming to a completely different level of immersion. Miniatures do the same job for me in the boardgame world.
Miniatures are important to the experience in the right game. I think part of the diminishing appeal to minis is that buyers are getting addicted to buying games. Getting your hands on a game that you play to the end of its natural lifespan is less frequent then buying the next new shiny thing. The less miniatures I have, the more I love the miniatures I have. The more miniatures I have, the more they all blur together.
Just curious what games did you play and what is your monitor and graphic card? Normally people like video games because they are more immersive and like board games because they are more tactile and with different mechanics.
@@TiagoSousa026 - I assume that they were wrapping the tactile experience in their definition of aesthetic. Obviously, minis aren't "necessary", but pushing a token around is never going to be as satisfying as plonking down a mini. It both looks better (arguably if you don't paint, inarguably if you do) and just feels better to have minis.
@@JCPRuckus Yes, minis are better but (at least me) don't have infinite money and also space 😁. I prefer to enjoy several board games and still complete enjoy the game even without the minis. Is the same in the video games, I would prefer to have a 4k monitor and an RTX 3090 but with lower specs, I still enjoy the game for a much lower price.
I'll take a cube, a pawn, a miniature, a meeple, or an acrylic standee. Just not a cardboard standee. They just don't stand up to long term use, and look like crap if they weren't punched out perfectly.
Miniatures are highly overrated, unless...you're into painting them or collecting them. After you've pulled the miniatures from the box and drooled over them, how many times do you gloat over them after that? After you've played the game for the third time do they just turn into blobs of plastic you move around or do they keep adding to the immersion and experience? At this point, can they really make new miniatures that we haven't seen already?
Agree. It does bother me that many Kickstarter games are adding minis when it adds little value (deluxification) to the gameplay. One recent example that comes to mind is Twisted Fables.
I literally only kickstart games for the cool cheap minis. I don't even look at games (on kickstarter) without them. And if the minis aren't part of the base game, then they're not going to be as cheap. So it's because of people like me that they don't usually offer a "standees only" version.
@@BoardGameCo - I like to think of the boardgame as a value add on top of the minis rather than the other way around... Lol... My mindset is, "Even if the game sucks, at least I got these awesome minis for cheap."
Of course they aren't necessary, but neither are standees or meeples (or any other form of deluxified components). We can just use tokens or even just scraps of paper with names written on them (this is often how games are playtested). We can also just use graph paper with a map or board drawn on it.
Great video, Alex! Would love to see a follow up of your top games that you felt like used miniatures really well. Like, what are the games you have that you felt like the mix of miniatures and mechanics was ::chef's kiss:: perfection?
If minis are not necessary, are standees not necessary? I would argue everything is necessary if it adds something to the game. The problem with most Kickstarter games with minis is that they don't do anything other than sit there and look pretty. The question should be "what games have minis that add something worthwhile to their games?"
I like minis a lot. In fact, I can't afford all the minis that I want. And still, when they arrive, I am a little disappointed at how mini they really are. I wish they were all biggies!!!
I agree for you for the most part.... I went to kickstarter b.c my first mini game was HEROSCAPE... and so far that's is the only game that does NEED minis (I have alot of minisgames). The rules was awesome where it did require the 3d father... where the wings of one player is blocking my shot to another... where the weak point of another piece is small and since the player decide to turn it around (position mattered weak point was at the front) I had to rethink my strategy... rules like if it dont fit it cant pass (i have 2 giants and a little path between my opponent wants to pass for better position, nope he too big to pass but maybe that little guy.... to this day that's was my reason to getting miniatures games and havent seen that factor yet in another game
@@BoardGameCo was my first miniature game... its without a doubt needed the 3D when to kickstarter and though the same for anygame... till this day I've been wrong haha
When I was young I started playing games with flat carboard tokens. When I upgraded to games with standees, I thought they were fantastic. These days, I love the look of games with miniatures, and too many of the games I buy have a big cost component for the miniatures. That's fine, since I can afford it now. But when I get together with friends and we play, most games have no miniatures at all, and none of us care. If I were to break down what makes the play experience valuable: 50% or more is doing something with friends 35 - 40% is the gameplay itself 10 - 15% is how it looks (the cards or the minis) This also means that if I'm doing solo play, the game quality, the cards and the miniatures become so much more important. (I'm looking at you, Stormsunder and ISS Vanguard, both of which I so excited for!)
I think the answer is easy, give options to the people. Even games like Primal, they said the game only makes sense with minis but give the option to the buyers don't decide by them. You can advise the minis version because you will get the full experience but don't make the only option but as always there are some exceptions.
It's almost certainly an economies of scale issue. If not everyone gets the minis, then the minis are more expensive to manufacture. If the minis are more expensive, then less people buy them. And in the end the creator/publisher makes less money than by forcing minis on everyone. Because if this wasn't the case, presumably they would offer the option. Lord knows that most of my kickstarter pledges are at least as much for the awesome cheap minis as for the potential of the game. I literally don't even look at kickstarters that don't include minis. So the question is can you get my attention without minis (you can't), or is it easier to force people who are ambivalent to accept that they have to take the minis?
@@JCPRuckus It depends on what you get more attracted to (I am for mechanics/gameplay) that is why I think giving more choices is good but I also agree. Giving options can lead to some more expenses (or not) and more work. If doing standees versions attracts more people can offset that cost. If you like minis I advise you to buy a resin 3D printer and some models to print or buy already printed minis. You will get better quality and maybe larger.
@@TiagoSousa026 - And what I'm saying is that these are businesses who likely already did the research and have decided that doing minis as an add-on is a worse business decision. Giving people more choices doesn't always mean more money... Or at least not enough extra money to justify the extra work involved. I mean, even your suggestion of getting a 3D printer falls under this issue. There are kickstarter games with really nice minis for under a dollar a piece. Is it really worth it to go through the effort to print my own minis if I'm only saving pennies? Especially when I might actually get a good game on top of the minis for essentially free?... Not every cost is obvious, and not every cost is financial. Extra effort is a cost too.
Very Interesting video! A lot to think about Im definitely self reflecting alot deeper about why I'm more a cubes and meeple guy despite being a sculptor / painter. Now that I'm thinking about it, part of it is accessibility. If it's a shorter game like 30 min - 2 hrs I definitely prefer just to pull out a bunch of baggies and dump cubes in a holder and boom I'm ready to go. With longer more epic games that I'm planning to make a day of I'm certainly more inclined to use minis. Now heres the thing that I didn't particularly think about: I sculpt and paint sculptures for a living. If I don't paint minis I kind of feel obligated to do so. If a game has minis I feel oddly guilty for not painting them but I usually don't. So when I pull out games with unpainted minis I have a moment of boy I really should paint these. But that's work... But I also enjoy it. So it's an odd work/hobby overlap that I kind of just freeze up on. To speak to the $$ vs time / experience. I am a notorious bargain hunter (with the caveat of 7+ rating games. This has resulted in a huge shelf of shame, however for me I feel it increases the odds of me finding gems / favorites without the guilt of overpaying for the flops. Last week I got the Alpha for $14 and hated it but got Marvel Champions for $15, absolutely loved it and never would have played it unless I paid less than $25 for it.
I agree with you regarding the Minis. My favorite non-mini games are: Camp Crizzly, Black Orchestra and Dungeon Degenerates. Games like Dark Souls, Resident Evil 2 or Ghostbusters 2 have nice Minis but the gameplay seems mediocre at best...
I agree minitures cannot cover bad game mechanics. But today I played Scythe for the first time and I think it is an example where minitures do add value to distinguish your units. Of course it could be simplified meeples but it does help and increase the experience. Thx for the interesting video!
In many cases I think I would like acrylic standees more than minis. I'm not a painter, so the acrylic standees are going to look better at a lower cost than pre-painted minis. Of course, I don't own many games with minis in the first place. The test will be whether I eventually decide to get the totally unnecessary minis for ISS Vanguard...
I understand not "needing" miniatures for a great game. Its like great graphics don't make an amazing video game. But that being said, I only buy miniature games, all my fun comes from painting minis. so I cant say that they are necessary but very welcome for us painters! :D
If painting your minis is also a hobby, then there is value as it's fun to bring them to "life". For me, minis add to the experience when playing RPGs. They have value to a point but Alex makes a good point, in essence of not going overboard. Great videos love the channel!!
Would be awesome to see an EP on the environmental impact of boardgames... Channels like this will have a huge impact on consumer habits and what the publishers do to reduce their impact. You have the poooower! Keep up the great work.
The biggest thing for me was your last point. All the minis make it harder to get to the table. And my wife legit sees all these minis and feels like it makes the game more complicated to understand.
I think they are important because they help game companies protect their property. Even the smallest game companies are having their product show up on Amazon and other sites as counterfeits. It's bad in several ways. One the company that actually created the game doesn't get any of the money and two the product is often inferior. To the person who doesn't know better they just think XYZ company makes poorly produced games. It's easy to print some cards and cardboard, much harder & costlier to create molds and minis.
Board games in general are unnecessary. You can just as easily play whatever you want solely with sticks and rocks. So you either pay extra for miniatures or you don't; it's up to you.
Absolutely not necessary. But they are delightful. I actually prefer the way Gloomhaven does it. Gimme standees for baddies, and minis for heroes so I can crappily paint em
