Are monochrome cameras REALLY better for Astro?? I TESTED color vs mono AT THE SAME TIME!

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28 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 321

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

To try everything Brilliant has to offer-free-for a full 30 days, visit brilliant.org/cuivlazygeek . You’ll also get 20% off an annual premium subscription. My Patreon: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek My Merch Store: cuiv.myspreadshop.com/ Cameras/Filters used in the video: SV605MC Pro monochrome camera: bit.ly/4cC0ohq (use coupon Cuiv20 for a further $20 dollars off!) SVBony SHO filters review: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BwMT_7FgVS0.html TOUPTEK IMX585 Cooled camera: tinyurl.com/4y9dz774 OGMA versions for US-based support (use code CUIV on checkout for a small discount!): getogma.com/ Altair Ha-OIII filter: www.altairastro.com/altair-ha-sii-oiii--dualband-ultra-4nm--filter-2-combo-13154-p.asp Amazon affiliate: amzn.to/49XTx01 Agena affiliate: bit.ly/3Om0hNG High Point Scientific affiliate: bit.ly/3lReu8R First Light Optics affiliate: tinyurl.com/yxd2jkr2 All-Star Telescope affiliate: bit.ly/3SCgVbV Astroshop eu Affiliate: tinyurl.com/2vafkax8

@Reverend-JT Месяц назад

Cuiv! Do you have a 3D printer? I designed a thing and want to share it with the world. Or a PO box I can send it to?

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

@@Reverend-JT I do have a 3D printer, if you have astrophotography related designs feel free to send to cuivlazygeek at Gmail

@CosmoHammers Месяц назад

How can you literally post a video every time when I am contemplating on a question? I love this channel and insight given from it

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha I like to have good timing like that :) Glad you enjoyed and thanks for the feedback!

@TheRickFoxes Месяц назад

Hi all... Great video Cuiv. I just made the switch to monochrome and am getting much better pictures with both nebulas and RGB. Makes sense after I figured out that a 16Mpixel sensor will give you 16 Million dots in Mono and 4 Million for each of red and blue (8 million in green). My star sizes are smaller and There are MANY more stars with mono as long as you are focused. Not much green in the nebulas so you get to use 2 times the pixels for H and O. Monochrome was worth the money and lightened my rig by putting the guide scope into an OAG with the filters. Keep up the good work. I couldn't have done it without you

@secretstill Месяц назад

I started with mono then moved to OSC for the simplicity and I am now contemplating going back for the extra gain to be had from mono (and because I have more time than I used to have). However, I think that investing time in getting better at processing pays back quicker with improved results at a much smaller cost than buying more gear. The grass is not greener we just imagine it to be! I think a policy of pushing the equipment you have to the limit before moving on is the way to go. A fascinating video with interesting results.Great work, Cuiv!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I'm exactly the same! Started with mono, went to OSC, and now considering doing mono again, but I probably won't haha

@Regal49 Месяц назад

I just watched your video. Thank you, it was very interesting. I have another suggestion for comparing mono vs color. For the mono part, use a filter wheel and take LRGB images for 2 hours having nina autofocus the filter changes. Then take 2 hours of data with a color camera using the same exposure time. No narrowband, no channel splitting; just compare the color image results that can be collected within the same 2 hour timeframe. Then compare the added cost of the filterwheel & LRGB filters vs the base cost of the color camera alone. I would be interested to see if the 2 hours of LRGB data produces an image superior to 2 hours of color data and if so, at what cost.

@backgammonbacon Месяц назад

This is a false comparison as you do not need to use a filter wheel and the limit of two hours is a completely made up rule as in the real world you will be imagining over several days and able to change the filters during the day time. Also most people live in light polluted areas and should really be using a narrow band filter so again omitting it is just a made up rule of yours chosen so the camera you bought can win. Also mono cameras can take good pictures when the Moon is out which is a much larger plus than most people seem to make out.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yesss! I want to do that - but I currently don't have a filter wheel :/ Will have to look into it!

@BobJohnsonSince1970 Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Well, filter changes with a drawer take only marginally more time to do. But I agree it would be a great comparison.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

@@BobJohnsonSince1970 yeah but I can't be asleep when doing the change

@briansturges2658 Месяц назад

I hope to see this comparison as well. However, I don't see cost being relevant at all since my astronomy is not a business and I've spent more on the hobby over the years than I want to consider anyway.

@wesleydonnelly2141 Месяц назад

Hey Cuiv! This video has helped lift my morale because this year I've only had 3 cloudless night skies!! So NB is effectively not an option for me, so seeing how well the OSC performed against the NB is very encouraging! Thanks as always for the ace content Cuiv! I'd be lost without yours and other YT'ers educational astro content! Wes, Liverpool, England.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

OSC is definitely very powerful for sure!

@antonypage1442 Месяц назад

I didnt know i was a channel member until i watched my name scrolling up at the end. Thank you whoever gifted it to me. Keep up the excellent work Cuiv.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

You likely got it in a live stream! :D And now you also get priority comment responses hahaha! Cheers!

@Astronurd 29 дней назад

Probably someone with the same name.

@antonypage1442 29 дней назад

@@Astronurd had my profile picture also.

@MikeTettenborn Месяц назад

Another great video Cuiv! You are AWSOME! Having experience with the 533MCp and 2600MCp and 2600MMp cameras on the same scope there is no doubt in my mind that mono is the way to go if equipment cost is not an issue. Less integration time, easier processing, better detail and SNR. However, OSC does have its place and can also give great results. Much better for EAA as well.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Good summary Mike, cheers!

@MrMrduke1975 Месяц назад

Great video! I have both types with the mono being my latest purchase. Once the fun of mono wares off, it will be great to have the color camera to go back to when I just want to get all of my data at once. I almost enjoy monochrome without color added. I just took a pick of The Elephant Trunk Nebula and left it in monochrome and WOW! I love it!!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Nice! It's good to find joy in the hobby regardless of the camera used :)

@MrMrduke1975 Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek most definitely! I’ve seen amazing pics regardless of camera type.

@rostokko87 Месяц назад

I tend to think a more fair (and probably interesting) comparison would be on a non-NB target - like a galaxy; that way you also take out of the equation the efficiency/quality of dual band filters, which is part of what you tested here. I personally default to a monochrome camera for NB imaging; for RGB imaging I typically first give a shot at the target with a color camera, and only if what I see seems to deserve I then switch to the monochrome camera going through the lrgb filters.

@Neanderthal75 Месяц назад

monochrome *can* be a pain in the butt on a broadband target, like if some telescope produces different star sizes per colors- so combining lrgb would produce awful looking stars and there isn't any procedure that I know of that first balances out all star sizes, before combining the LRGB channels. Matter of fact, I end up removing the stars from the luminance channel before I combine, because they do more damage than good.

@rostokko87 Месяц назад

I typically process stars (both in NB and broadband) separately, and when shooting monochrome I do not use luminance at all for them - not sure I see any benefit of including it for stars. In terms of star sizes across the three RGB filters, I have never experienced problems; if R or B have a bigger star compared to the other, I end up realizing later that I am indeed dealing with a red or blue star...

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep, I want to try that next, but I need LRGB filters AND an EFW...!

@sonicfestival22 Месяц назад

Great video, thank you Cuiv! I was kind of thinking the gap would be bigger between the mono and colour so makes me feel better for sticking with my colour setup, lol. Having said that, the combined version did look great!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Thanks! Yep, OSC is still incredible :)

@anata5127 Месяц назад

I have done this type of comparison 2 years ago with ASI294MC vs ASI294MM. Since then, I never used color camera and switched from ZWO to QHY cameras and filter wheels.

@Ben_Stewart Месяц назад

Those are technically two different sensors when binned at 1X1. I found the 294MM a pain when taking flats. Sold it and went back to all OSC. However I might consider a 2600MM or 6200MM.

@davesmith9342 Месяц назад

The "how do you cope with a color camera" jab by astrophotographers is the common thread of every hobby I've been in: gate keeping. Even though it's a hobby, people have to crap on how you do things, or your equipment, and I don't get it. OSCs have a place for people like me. I take great pics and share them with friends who are amazed. I hope one day to upscale my whole rig with a monochrome camera, but for now it's great.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I went from monochrome to OSC myself for the simplicity :)

@stephanep1330 Месяц назад

Hi Cuiv, Again, great video! I'm currently into shooting dark nebulas in the Cepheus region. I'm very happy I made the move to mono LRGB. To speed up the imaging process, I set up a NINA sequence looping LLLRGB then dither (3x more L, then 1R, 1G and 1B then dither) using offsets for the focuser (no need to rerun autofocus after each frames). I'm impressed about the SNR we can get, although I must say I have a Bortle 4 sky. The main issue is with 120s frames during our short summer nights, I can end up with only ~20 dithering steps which will not allow to drizzle well each channels. I need 2 nights or maybe shoot 60s frames only.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That's the best strategy! Although you could also insert dithers in between the colors as well no? I'm so jealous at your Bortle 4 :)

@stephanep1330 Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Intersting suggestion, thank you!... Or, i could try a loop LLLRGB and dither after each L frames only. theorically, I should have a free dither for all RGB? I will give a try, and maybe it's not so interessting to drizzle RGB anyway (only L matters!) :)

@revolting887 Месяц назад

Great video @Cuiv! I started off with a mono setup and so I don't know how much easier it is with OSC but I found I got very comfortable with mono - very little frustration (I have a filterwheel which is a must). My few frustrations were mainly around consistent focusing between narrowband and LRGB, but after switching to NINA, I was able to address those subtleties. Keep up the great content!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

The NINA advanced sequencer is just SO GOOD for monochrome cameras!

@JVRost Месяц назад

My experience of shooting in the city with a color camera Touptek IMX 571 in combination with two-band filters H_O S_O 6 nm, says the following: in terms of signal accumulation time, this is comparable to the technology of working on a mono sensor. If you make the total accumulation time less than 6 hours per object, then you will go broke on paid processing programs))), and if you want to create a panorama, then you will die accumulating and processing. Therefore, a mono sensor is a clear choice for a polluted city sky, but a color sensor for a suburban sky is more than suitable for saving time.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep, sounds like good advice!

@MakeKasprzak Месяц назад

Nice. Color definitely seems "good enough" for casual use. Now i gotta look back at camera comparison videos to see how "budget" of a sensor I'd be willing to accept.

@AnalogMonoxide Месяц назад

Very interesting Cuiv, thanks.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

My pleasure!

@petesastrophotography Месяц назад

Can...worms...open...😉Excellent video Cuiv. OSC cameras are far easier and cheaper to use and produce fantastic results. I think when it comes to cost vs results OSC is hard to beat. However, I have both the ASI2600MC and ASI2600MM cameras and do see a significant difference in my images. So much so that all my rigs are now mono. That comes at a considerable expense so it isn't for everyone.

@Astrorun Месяц назад

Do you think using both cameras (mono with luminance filter and OSC with narrow band filters) on the same target could be a good compromise between a full OSC equipment (cheaper, more "lazy" and less sharped results) VS a full mono equipment (more expensive, less practicle but sharper) ?

@petesastrophotography Месяц назад

@@Astrorun That's quite a common approach for LRGB imaging, but I'm not sure if there is much benefit for narrowband as you really want to capture the isolated wavelengths rather than the broad spectrum that luminance gives you (although I haven't tried it).

@Astrorun Месяц назад

@@petesastrophotography Ok thank you for your response.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha can of worms opened indeed! And I fully agree with your analysis. I was actually surprised at how much a difference I saw with this test! But yes monochrome cameras are more expensive, add the EFW, EAF becomes a must, add all the filters, and things start to get expensive and complicated in a hurry!

@RobertKarlBerta Месяц назад

My first ccd camera was a ST 237 SBIG camera with internal motor driven rgbL tiny filter wheel. Later I moved on to other cameras but always mono. My "last" ccd mono was a fullframe observatory grade SBIG CCD camera with Lrgb and NB 2" filters internally mounted in motor driven cassetes. That now is in observatory use only with either 12" Hyperstar or 6" APO refractor. Many of my photos were multi day or in a couple of cases multi year projects. One image used two different scopes in two different states in the US over three years. Two years ago I decided to get a more portable set up. It is all ZWO... AM5 mount, EAF, OSC camera, guide camera, and ASI AIR Plus. The scope is either a 80mm APO refractor or 8" Hyperstar. I can take from my car setup, polar aligned and cooling and ready to image in 15 minutes or less. Here in Michigan that is a huge advantage in imaging time. We don't have lot of days of clear skies or comfortable weather like I had back in California. I can take several great images in a night or two from even my back yard. To me that is the advantage of OSC. I am 77 years old and that light travel setup is so nice. I still use the other equally... but not for remote imaging. There is a difference in image quality but processing can minimize it.

@M0unta1n777 Месяц назад

OMG Cuiv don't know if you remember but I commented a few videos ago asking why you eventually chose osc over mono cos I was struggling to choose between them I CANT CLICK ON THIS FAST ENOUGH. Love your content 😍

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha I hope the video was helpful!

@DrunkferretKG Месяц назад

A difference between your cameras is there QE response across the spectrum. The 585 has a higher QE for the Ha and S2 wavelengths than the 533. I have noticed this in my images after having a 294 sensor and switching to the 533. It feels like i took a hit to my S2 signal.

@mikeseman6598 Месяц назад

Great video and a lot of good comments. My one thought is to repeat but swap the cameras on the scopes for that comparison. You would still have apples to pears with the different pixel sizes and filter bandpasses but would be cool to see the mono image vs color done under swapped f ratios and telescope differences. I would suspect you would see the same conclusion…

@winman14may Месяц назад

I have noticed that the sensitivity on the red spectrum of the 533mono sensor is less than the blue/green spectrum. The QE charts also represent this. I have the Playerone version of the 533mono.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That makes sense, thanks for chiming in!!

@ziggyfrnds Месяц назад

Thanks Cuiv! Great video as always. In my personal opinion, a comparison with the ASI585 is not fair.....that camera is extremely sensitive at the low end of the spectrum. But it's a great experiment nonetheless goes to show how far we've progressed in sensor technology, something that should be 4 times more efficient is actually not 4 times as good 😂

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Apples to pears! I did my best ;)

@nigelking1536 Месяц назад

Hey Cuiv, Another great video. My 2 cents is I don’t think you have to choose. I think the night and your circumstances will determine when to use and not to use monochrome or OSC. As you have pointed out many times this hobby is a money pit, and after enough time in acquisition ( both equipment and data), we tend to find ourselves at a point where we have most of the things (equipment knowledge and experience) that we should be able to choose either or even both. I definitely agree with you though, osc is the way to start, as the cost and complexity (and ensuing frustration) is significantly less. In my personal circumstances I don’t get many chances to setup, so I try and get away when I can for multiple nights in a dark sky location. Because of the vagaries of the weather, I try and capture what I can first night in osc, and if I’m lucky to get more clear nights, I move to monochrome.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep, agree!

@pumpedupchips Месяц назад

There's additional things to consider. Most color cameras have complex bandpass transmission functions (the wavelengths of light the filter lets in) that let in light from wavelengths that you might not find desireable (when shooting RGB) or might just not have the best transmission overall. For example its very common for the blue and green channels of these one shot color cameras to let in color on the blue and far red side (past halpha. Around i band), which is not desirable But when shooting mono you can use SDSS or Johnson filters which are much more regulated and have very high transmission.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep, you're absolutely right (it's one of the reasons I was so surprised to see how cleanly we were able to separate Ha and OIII with the OSC camera!)

@markgallaway5574 Месяц назад

True but then if you are shooting H alpha why not just stack the three channels? Solves the problem

@astrotube3967 Месяц назад

If you have deep pockets I think it’s best to have both. Mono and osc camera. E.g. osc for comets and galaxies and other broadband targets and mono for all of your narrowband where you need to extract extra data.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Agree!

@davidf9494 Месяц назад

Great video Cuiv as always- perhaps it can be summed up by the enhanced WOW factor of the mono camera, when the final image is completed. However, I do wonder about OSC..........having only used a Mono camera!

@Neanderthal75 Месяц назад

Hello Cuiv! I have the 533mono and I also got a 071mc pro color. Funny thing is, I bought the osc camera after I bought the mono. I don't have a a lot of clear nights for 3 years now and while the mono is nice and all, The color camera just let's me go right at the target and image away. I KNOW I can make nice image with the mono, and done it many times, but due to the lack of clear nights for years now, when I image, I just want to get it running and walk away from it. If I know for sure there will be clear nights and more than one in a row, or I get a chance to image multiple times a week and month, then I pull out the mono camera. Otherwise, 3-4hrs darkness during summer and 50% of chance of clouds makes me prefer to use the osc camera.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yes the laziness you can achieve with a color camera is unmatched!

@varadinagypal Месяц назад

How about the O III having not one but two lines, and blueshifting-by-fast-focal-length the filter took in from that secondary emission line, while keeping most of the primary emission line?

@deepskydetail Месяц назад

Great video, Cuiv! I played the pause and answer game, and while I was at it, added a couple additional thoughts ;) 05:46 - I predicted the monochrome camera will look better. 08:59 - I think the top images are monochrome? Both sets look good and it's closer than I thought honestly. 10:16 - I agree, I think the SNR is better with mono, especially for the faint areas. 21:28 - Yep! Been there. As mentioned, a filter wheel and focuser helps! 24:11 - I feel that the main thing is, does the astrophotographer enjoy using a OSC? If yes, no copium needed! 24:21 - I prefer mono. But I went straight from DLSR to mono instead of DSLR to OSC. There is more flexibility and sensitivity with mono, imo. Having said that, I've seen OSC users blow my images away thanks to their skills in framing, processing etc. Great image! Thanks!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Thanks Mark! Yep, I agree on all points! I enjoy OSC, so I am on a minimum dosage of copium. I had to take an additiona pill of copium at lunch time after doing this test though!

@deepskydetail Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Mono can get addicting!

@pompeymonkey3271 Месяц назад

18:36 - but you raised the black point. Surely that would reduce the faint extremities. Apologies for the multiple comments, but you did encourage us to reply in RT lol. Edit. Fantastic image BTW!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I processed to the best of my ability both! I just could not get the same faint extremities in OSC as I could mono!

@swagonman Месяц назад

20 years ago, I bought a 2Mp SBIG cooled monochrome camera (with integrated 2nd guide sensor), SBIG’s filter wheel, and L, R, G, B, and Ha filters. It was expensive. I didn’t have autofocus, and a lot of software wasn’t well developed back then. I did alternate filters on every sub-frame after the first time I wasn’t able to capture a complete set of colors. I also drizzled. It was expensive and a lot of work. I sold the camera as 6Mp and 8Mp started to come down in price from extreme to only expensive. But outside of eclipses, I pretty much gave up on the hobby. I’m now getting back into it due to the simplicity afforded within the ZWO ecosystem. So far, I’m using my Fuji 26Mp mirrorless camera and a 48mm HaO3 filter (SV220) screwed either in front of camera lenses or within my T-adapter if using my old scope. I’m about to buy the ZWO ASI2600 camera, so your video is perfect. I think I will go the lazy/cheap route with the color version. I’m also going to buy two scopes designed for imaging: the RedCat71 and Askar FMA180. Also the ZWO EAF. I already bought the AM5, ASI Air Mini, and ASI120 guide camera. It’ll be a portable and fun setup. Now I hope SVBony adds another low-cost filter for S2O3 so I can do Hubble color palette. Love your videos!!!!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I'll have a video about the upcoming ZWO ASI2600MC Air camera soon by the way :) And yes a SIIOIII SvBony filter would be great!

@izelennkhan Месяц назад

I really would have expected a larger difference... Very interesting!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha and I expected a smaller difference! It was a lot of fun to try!

@lostmypicks Месяц назад

Great video as always sir. I'm putting a shopping list together and I've been wondering how big of a gap there is. I think I'll start simple since I'm more new to astrophotography I think I'll go with the 585 color. And it seems to pair well with the scope I've chosen the askar 103APO. Love the content, man

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That's going to be an awesome start 103APO + 585, beautiful combo for nice details!

@lostmypicks Месяц назад

@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks sir. Done a fair bit of research, and this seems like a good beginner combo. Good to hear your stamp of approval haha. 👌

@yiannis-be Месяц назад

Hey Cuiv! Another one to keep in mind is that the color camera has an extra disadvantage if you are using a refractor (that is not a perfect apochromat). And then, all colors will not focus exactly at the color sensor image plane... With a mono camera, every color filter focuses independently, so that should not be a problem.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Very true as well! Being able to refocus between filters is a huge advantage!

@Mrcloc Месяц назад

Great video, thanks! Focal ratio doesn't matter - aperture is everything. The major difference here is the pixel size - larger pixels pick up photons more quickly and therefore register values quicker. I prefer mono, but I will be honest that OSC is so much simpler. I have the SV705C and I've gotten great results. The big thing with that is that it doesn't have glow - calibrating an uncooled camera with glow is really difficult.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Thank you! And I agree OSC is just so much easier! I made a different video on the topic, focal ratio does matter since the focal length determines how much to spread the photons captured by the aperture, so it has a similar impact as larger or smaller pixels :)

@Mrcloc Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Yes, if you look at it as focal length - so a smaller sensor with shorter focal length and larger sensor with longer focal length, but it doesn't change the exposure time as is the popular belief. Ideally your sensor should be able to capture the entire image circle to capture all photons. Keep up the good work on your videos! Your results with the 6" are inspiring! I think I will be tuning my 8" in the cloudy months coming.

@caroliensche13 Месяц назад

04:17 did you consider the apparatus function of your spectrometer? Especially consumer spectrometers often show several nanometer wide lines even when looking at a laser line.

@TL1000S97 Месяц назад

I think you must change your "nick" to "Cuiv The Eager Geek" 😂 Not "going mono" and not having an EFW is "lazy" I guess. 😊You seem to always come up with new content that is right on time with what I want to know😍 A recent post by "The Space Koala" made me "invest" in mono gear recently, which was quite expensive, and it is absolutely not possible to be "lazy" with that setup. I have not started using it yet, just verifying the hardware/software (ZWO) on a "test bench" (read: living room table), but the processing part of mono just looked too interesting to not trying that also. Your comments about being dependent on long consecutive dark/clear nights for mono image sessions make mono imaging a "risky" project though. Where I live that is not something to be expected. I seldom have more than a couple of hours with clear skies in a given nightly session.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

To be fair you CAN be lazy with monochrome, but the initial setup is quite some work. You need: - an EAF - an EFW - all the filters that should be parfocal if using an OAG - in NINA compute the filter offsets (so you don't need to refocus per filter) - in NINA setup your default AF filter (so you can do AF with the brightest filter, and then reach correct focus for your imaging filter using the offsets) - use NINA to circle through the filters Once that's done, it's just as lazy as OSC, but boy is it some initial work!

@EricMilewski Месяц назад

Great video, Thanks for this test 👍

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

My pleasure :)

@bradgusting2635 Месяц назад

Interesting - I've been using a monochrome 294mm for about 2 years...I've had some great results but I've also had many many nights where I've collected half the data I need to to make a complete image and then between weather, moon and life phases missed the window of opportunity to finish the job. I'm about to click buy on a OSC camera.

@siegfriedberger7009 Месяц назад

I own a monchrome camera und like it. Especially to develop Hubble palette images (SHO) is a big advantage!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yes SHO is a lot easier with monochrome! Although it's possible with OSC as well

@barnaclewatcher4060 Месяц назад

Great video, love your passion for the hobby.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Thank you!

@beatsntoons Месяц назад

I use both (2600MC and 268M). I use the 268M because of narrowband. And the OSCs are just better travel cameras as well. They've each got a place in my arsenal.

@davidharveyart Месяц назад

12bit v 14bit maybe reduced the colour camera's nebulosity.?

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Not likely considering the dynamic range (which is what really matters and is deduced from the bit depth as one of the parameters) and that I exposed to make sure I was within constraints, but a possibility!

@lee-van-cleef Месяц назад

I get that mono is better but I’ve always struggled with having to juggle multiple filters. Sometimes one filter will have halos and need to be replaced, and then the replacement will also have halos, and on and on. Also the need to take flats for each filter. I just have a more pleasant experience with OSC.

@rvoykin Месяц назад

If you get high-quality filters, you really shouldn’t have to deal with halos. Typically, most people are using filters on one shot color camera most of the time as well and I tend to see more halos with multi-bandpass filters

@lee-van-cleef Месяц назад

@@rvoykin Halos with Chromas have been documented.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yeah there is definitely a lot more effort that goes with the initial setup with a mono camera!

@ekalbkr Месяц назад

So far, I've always used color cameras, though I admit, now that I have better skills and equipment than a few years ago, I harbor an attraction to Monochrome. In the end, I realized I resemble a mini-me of the Lazy Geek, with emphasis on the Lazy part, so I suspect I will stick with color...

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha OSC definitely helps with the laziness!

@mykol68 Месяц назад

Hi Cuiv. Sorry to be a pain but to double check. you could swap the cameras round and do this again to see how things differ with the scopes/ camera type. just to make more work for you. lol

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yesssss, another thing to do lol

@woody5109 Месяц назад

Based on our limited clear nights here, colour is the only practical option for me. Mono is clearly better, but not enough better to justify all that the extra cost and time. Great unbiased comparison.

@rvoykin Месяц назад

If you spend the same amount of time with each camera, monochrome will always give you a better result. If you use one night and split between three filters or 4 filters for LRGB vs 1 night with OSC and either no filter for broad band or a dual narrowband filter the Monochrome will outperform in a single night and pull away more and more as time goes on. It’s somewhat close in results for one night, but as the nights go on the monochromic, continue to put a bigger gap in results overtime.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep, that makes sense to me, although I do think that because the SNR curves wrt time are effectively square roots, assuming that monochrome gets signal at a rate of x, and color at a rate of 0.8x, the SNR gap after 90 hours would be 1, but you'd need to get to go to 360 hours to widen it to 2. So I think the initial gap would be the most visible!

@BobJohnsonSince1970 Месяц назад

Hi again, I have the Ogma AP08CC which has the IMX585 sensor. I'm curious which of the three gain modes you shot in. The HDR mode is pretty sweet.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Usually HCG, but I need to test HDR :)

@skye7690 Месяц назад

Good video, for me, I’ll take simplicity over a little extra SNR.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep, that makes sense to me!

@skye7690 Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Just wait until the layered color cameras come in that layer 3 colors in the space of one pixel. Something for the future. After that we need a technology where one pixel can detect multiple colors (instead of just intensity), i'm sure they can come up with that.

@The_Vinceable Месяц назад

Hmm. So not a clear cut but more complicated than one is better than the other. I suppose then we need one f the fantastic sponsors to and you 2 rigs that are exactly the same with the same cameras (one mono one OSC) it’s still fascinating because I always assumed hands down that mono is superior being that the Bayer matrix rggb cuts my red and blue channels into 1/4 and 1/2 from green channel.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha it would be great to have two identical telescopes and cameras - the only issue would be the filters, but same brand & bandpass & checked with my spectrometer should be good :D

@sams9716 Месяц назад

My guess on why the color camera shows more Ha is because you have 2 nights of Ha data vs 1 night with the monochrome camera.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

And at the same time two nights of OIII with OSC and one night on mono... And yet!

@TevisC Месяц назад

I just got done doing 90+hrs using my SWQ150, 533mm.. then my ASIair died from the summer heat.. with 3 kids, trying to find time to process!!

@sianikolaou5440 Месяц назад

I have to ask, are there differences in the quantum efficiency, especially at OIII between the two sensors? Very curious. Personally, I will keep using a OSC at home, just for the convenience and time saving aspect. Are planning on having a mono for a remote set up. Feel that there will be more opportunity to image with various filters where better skies are available.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That's a good point! There are indeed differences, the 533 is more sensitive in OIII, but as far as I can tell not by all that much! Completely understand your decision with OSC at home for convenience, and mono to make the best of a remote setup, that makes sense to me!

@mikeisss79 Месяц назад

Strange that the background appears much darker in OSC than in mono. We're right in the middle of monsoon season here in Tucson, but I managed to get an image of the dumbbell about a month ago with the SV220 filter. There's a story with the filter too. I used your link to make the purchase and when I got the filter, I also apparently got a free spotting scope with it! Very weird, I checked multiple times to see if I was charged, and nope, it was free. Soooo thanks for the free spotting scope? Excellent and in depth as always Cuiv. Also, the comparison is similar enough you could just say Gala Vs Fuji🙂 Post Edit: I forgot to say the combined image is fantastic!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

It's really interesting result! Also, congrats on that spotting scope hahaha! Maybe they made a mistake, but can't complain!

@stantonstebbins9305 Месяц назад

Thanks! I’m curious if you think the oem focuser of the CarbonStar can handle the weight of a mono imaging train (EFW, OAG, camera) without sagging? Particularly an IMX571 sensor size train…

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I haven't tested with an EFW, but it doesn't seem to have any issues with filter drawer+OAG+IMX571 camera

@Astrorun Месяц назад

Hello Cuiv, What do you think about using one monochrome camera for luminance and one color camera with the same sensor for the rest of the channels ? Would it produce better images than using exclusively a color camera ? Would it be a good compromise between lazyness, results and price ? Thank you for your work.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That's actually a great idea! Could be a lot of fun to try out :) I might do that! :D

@Astrorun Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Oh great ! I'll stay tuned and hope it will give promising results.

@tmrdarkstar85 Месяц назад

Depending on the optics including the quality of filters is what really depends on how your image turns out. Along with Seeing. In my experience with using a 2600mc then going to a 268m, my 268m produces a far better end result. Sure it takes forever to complete an image but the time spent is well worth the end result. I held off on Mono for years after starting astrophotography. I finally gave in and love Mono. The biggest thing for me is there is no way to do SHO, HSO, OSH, or even getting fancier and adding in Nitrogen 3 with color camera. OSC is a great entry point for people. In my humble opinion NO one should ever start with Mono except for their guide camera. OSC should always be someone's first choice due to ease of use an costs. In my opinion Mono is like Fast optics its not beginner friendly and it is one of the quickest ways to lose interest in this hobby and field of science

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yeah I tend to agree - mono can be a hobby killer, although some people to manage it!

@TareqAstroPhoton Месяц назад

Cuiv, please can you try to use your OSC for broadband targets from Tokyo? Also can you test your OSC for RGB stars only to see how good is OSC for only RGB under B9, mono is still the winner for sure, but i want to see how much good OSC is also for broadband at certain level, not necessary to image a galaxy, but just stars.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I've done that many times, check my pleiades video for instance!

@TareqAstroPhoton Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek Ok, cool, thank you

@leonim513 Месяц назад

The ultimate lazy mono setup is filter wheel + autofocus + NINA. Filter offsets means you can cycle through the filters in a loop, and you'll always have LRGB images, even if the night gets cloudy. No need to worry about missing an entire channel.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yes! Plus you can set your default AF filter (I added that feature to NINA! ;) )

@mikeatkinson2360 Месяц назад

IIRC I need to credit Chad at Patriot Astro who taught me more than I can possibly remember about filter offsets. Works like a charm. (Oops, not dissing Cuiv here who I believe contributed to the NINA codebase. I can't work out how he finds the time!)

@lupixus Месяц назад

small loose in light transmission?! you have to be joking! :)))) Not so long ago, i was "the ambasador" of OSCs but... once you go black (mono), you'll never go back (to OSC) 🤖🤖

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahahaha let me eat my copium in peace will you? :D

@simonpepper5053 Месяц назад

Ah the age old question let me offer my 2 cents. I have a 1600mm pro and a 2600 mc pro and I got to the mm camera every single time! It’s just better even being older and less bit. I prefer mono that much I’m selling my 2600 if any takers 😂

@jster91 Месяц назад

When you say same integration time, are you saying that if you had 4 hours of time on the OSC, you also had 4 hours per filter on the mono camera? Or did you keep the overall time the same and mono would then split the time among the filters?

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

The latter! Same overall integration time/same time spent under the stars!

@jster91 Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek great! Such a useful experiment. It’s why I love this channel!

@FJano12 Месяц назад

Conclusion?

@dannylgriffin Месяц назад

Mono is better. I've never done astrophotography, too expensive back in 1980! If I ever move out of Michigan (our skies are often cloudy at night during the summer because we are surrounded by huge lakes I guess) I would like to take it up on a small scale. I need to retire my homemade 43 year old 10" Dob.

@wildweedle6012 Месяц назад

They better be.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

*narrator voice* they were

@crawfprof Месяц назад

I appreciate your pragmatic approach. But one thought at least. Electronic filter wheels are a badge of laziness! That's why I have a couple. So if you really want to wear your laziness for the world to see, get yourself a filter wheel. Maybe two! I run an OSC rig to get the colour and at the same time run a mono system to get SHO data. No waiting for another clear night. I can also get L with my mono system and colour with my OSC. I'm having fun and still feel lazy. It costs more money as you say, but money can buy both happiness and laziness. Two birds with one stone!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

I know, I know! I do need to get myself some EFW :D

@lucasrave1647 Месяц назад

I chose the monochrome side and yes, it implies a lot of patience to finish shooting an object. Now I tend to do not seek for immediat results: I know I may have to wait next year to be able to finish some targets (or even the year after!) But its ok, I bough two HDD to archives the raw pictures, and I organize carefully my shooting sessions with a precise log, under Excel, of what I've shot and when (coordinates of center, camera angle, filters, temperature, shooting time, number of lights, calibration pictures, seeing, presence of moon, etc...) so I will be able to continue next year under identicall conditions.

@bazpearce9993 Месяц назад

Comparing oranges with lemons is about right for this example. All they have different is one left and one right handed molecules.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha I LOVE this, cheers!

@AmatureAstronomer Месяц назад

Top is monochrome.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

You won! ;)

@synthplayer1563 Месяц назад

Thanks for your efforts, but I don't see that much of a difference. For me it's clear that it's not worth the effort and I'll stick with an OSC camera.

@LordHillAquarium Месяц назад

pausing at 9min to say the images on the bottom appear to have more contrast, I think those are the monochrome.

@LordHillAquarium Месяц назад

and I was wrong LOL

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Thank you for playing! :D

@n-da-bunka2650 Месяц назад

Color is "just fine" IF you are NOT using filters!

@Br3ntable Месяц назад

🌎

@user-ku4yk4ut4z Месяц назад

You really should be asking WHY does NASA and as far as I know ALL space agencies use MONO cameras and NOT Color in the Majority of the Image gathering observatories around the world. ..And you like other who have tried this suffer from the same Affliction You all use Different companies and different cameras ...if you really want to try and answer these questions you HAVE to use the same company same camera and all the same processes to obtain results like ZWO 2600mm pro and ZWO 2600MC pro if not your just wasting time it not an even comparison in anyway !

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Why is that initial question relevant? Monochrome is better for SNR, and it's the only way to cleanly separate wavelengths with filter, so obviously for professional obsys mono is basically the only way. But for me this is just about creating pretty pictures, it's not the same objective :)

@AstroReyak Месяц назад

I Will say, mono camera at the top.

@AstroReyak Месяц назад

Beautiful results on both of them any how. 🎉

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Nice, well done!

@HamishBarker Месяц назад

Think about a single group of 4 pixels with and without Bayer filter pattern. Say with 100 photons per second per pixel per colour filter and, imaging for 3 seconds total, and look at how many total photons are received in red, green and blue. Bayer sensor. Red pixel 300. Green pixels 600. Blue pixel 300 photons. Non Bayer sensor: red filter 1 second at 400 photons. Green 400. Blue 400. Total photons is the same . 3x read noise in the non Bayer sensor ( 3 exposures required). But signal to noise is unequal in the Bayer sensor since there are 2 green pixels ( 600 photons) versus 1 red and 1 blue ( 300 each).

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Excellent explanation!

@HamishBarker Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeekand thank you for your great videos!

@CriticalThinker-42 Месяц назад

Trevor Jones (AstroBackyard) claimed that he sees ~14% better final images using the Monochrome over the OSC version of the same camera / sensor, with a longer total imaging time using the Monochrome camera. To him its worth all the extra money, effort, and time per final image. (his skys are better than Tokoyo's)... When your young for many time isn't as important, your more competitive, tend compare yours with others, and your vision is better (many strive to be the best), BUT when you get older for many time is more precious, competition isn't as important, and your vision is not as good (many realize that good enough for you, is good enough)... As with anything in life, The Best, is what's Best for You! Geek On, Cuiv! 🍺🍻

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Makes sense to me! Cheers!

@paulbenoit249 Месяц назад

What about getting a luminance layer with the mono and the rgb color layer from the Color camera, and combine them in PI?

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That's an excellent suggestion! I'll try that at some point :)

@captaincook6666 Месяц назад

I use my colour camera to add stars to my mono HOO data. Working well..few examples on my channel.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Nice idea!

@AstroGuina Месяц назад

Another extremely relevant video, Cuiv! Still in this line of testing, it would be interesting to measure how much additional exposure time with the color camera would be necessary to achieve the same result as the image with the mono camera.

@mikehardy8247 Месяц назад

Are you saying that total integration time of, let's say12 hours color is equal to 3 hours on R-G-B-M = 3X4=12, is same. In terms of results? Because if you need to shoot 12 hours each filter, you know what I'm saying. I'll stick with color for now. TOO much work.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Sorry I wasn't clear - it's the total integration time, so in my case say 6 hours Ha + 6 hours OIII in monochrome vs 12 hours HaOIII on OSC!

@grahamwhite75a Месяц назад

I suspect that the 533 Qe peaks at 500nm and the 585 peaks at about 650nm partly explains the stronger Oiii signs in monochrome version and stronger Ha signal in the colour version,

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yep that's right - I should have used the 571 OSC instead of the 585... Sigh. Oh well, maybe next time!

@paulmurphy9358 Месяц назад

I know you have some really good narrowband filters. Do you think it would be possible for you to get SH2-114 The Flying Dragon Nebula from Tokyo? I tried to see if an hour with the Seestar would show even a hint of it, no luck.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

That looks hard!

@pompeymonkey3271 Месяц назад

Paused at 9:15 I don't know which camera to which image, but the upper pair definitely have more signal.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Absolutely, and it turned out to be mono :)

@thomasrider5852 Месяц назад

While there is a difference, the price difference is also something to consider. Is the cost worth the extra little bit of detail

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

True! Although the SVBony camera is actually quite cheap!

@rameshtahlan 20 дней назад

Well, I have been doing OSC for past 3 to 4 years. But now I want to change over to MONO. I want that punch which can only be given by MONO, and those microscopic details that only a MONO can give. So, today is 8 Sept 2024, hopefully in under 10 days I would have changed over to MONO. I have the WO, FLT 132, which presently has 294MC Pro, and will be replaced by 2600MM Pro. Also getting a 7 filter EFW for 2in filters. And of course their filter for SHO. Just one question, with SHO Narrowband Filters, do I still need the RGB Filter ?

@Bortle10 Месяц назад

Ain't noone got time for monochrome...

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Yeah it is a bit of a hassle to set up and maintain!

@whatmattersmost6725 Месяц назад

Bottom Mono camera! I'm a Looser...

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Hahaha you're not a looser man, it's just a testament to how close OSC cameras have gotten to monochrome!

@JoseNavarroCo Месяц назад

This video made me happy for choosing OSC as my first camera. The added cost and things to be a pain the a$$ when they fail, is not worth it. It is however, better to have both at some point. 😊 thanks Cuiv

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Thanks Jose! OSC is for sure easier, less likely to fail (fewer things it depends on) AND it's more fun to see color images roll in rather than monochrome :)

@philippefenain4405 11 дней назад

Such an excellent video as usual ! I learned a lot. I am an the OSC, despite the fact that my sky is of much better quality than yours in Tokyo. Simpler as you say and somehow cheaper. Merci !

@JeffHorne Месяц назад

Excellent comparison! Quick thought…at which point did you do gradient removal? If you did gradient removal on the combined rgb OSC image vs on individual H and O channels for the mono cam, maybe that changed the signal between the two images and brought out more Oiii? Thank you for all that you do for us!

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Good point! I did gradient removal immediately, so something else to try, thanks Jeff!

@JeffHorne Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeekwould be cool to compare the gradients between mono and OSC channels, too!

@Astrobomj Месяц назад

Mono is better, but im too lazy

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Sounds like me :p

@deepskywatching4713 17 дней назад

Changes to mono one year ago, and I am always look to the rgb grass because of simpler imaging acquisition and process. But when rethinking I say. Hey there was reason to change: the mostly ugly beige look of dual narrow band images. But for rgb only: go for it. Or do both 😂

@santiagomadruga4298 Месяц назад

Cuiv, It would be great if you did a comparison with a modern mirrorless camera. Modern sony mirrorless have newer sensors than astrocams, and maybe that could offset somehow the lack of cooling.

@CuivTheLazyGeek Месяц назад

Any specific model in mind?

@santiagomadruga4298 Месяц назад

@@CuivTheLazyGeek From Sony, any new model with the star-eater problem fixed: A7rV,A7CII,A7rc. From Canon/Nikon any model without stacking sensors (they trade speed for noise): Nikon Z6II, Nikon Z7II, Canon R6, Canon R5. Anyway, ideally a model with a modern Sony sensor because (i) it would allow a better comparison con astrocams, (ii) they are the cutting-edge in sensor technology.

@haraldh9645 Месяц назад

Thanks for this very interesting comparison! I just have one question regarding timestamp 03:41 Why is h-alpha captured by one third of the pixels of OSC sensor? I thought it was 1/4 of all pixels?

@SunJao Месяц назад

Hi Cuiv! Thank you for tackling this topic! I have always wondered, especially now when deciding my next camera, about the factors to consider. I am curious what you meant (~ 20 minutes in) by artifacts with Bayer drizzling. Would the artifacts be due too low subframe counts for decent drop shrink factor or something else?