No one will read this in it's entirety, but it made me think about these comparisons in more depth so I count it as a win. Ramblings below. Tactical VS Intercessors: They get 1 weapon upgrade with the 10 point differences, this can be spent on a grav cannon which has 4 attacks balancing out the fire power difference between them and intercessors. Intercessors have their shoot twice stratagem which boost the damage output of their larger squads quite efficiently and trans human. If you're going MSU I'd go tacticals as they can fill supplementary battle field roles like tank hunting, letting you take more elite choices like vanguard veterans. If you want a battle line that you want to get into melee large Intercessors squads are the way to go. Winner: Tie MSU go with tactical large battle line go with intercessors. Devastators VS Hellblasters: No one is going to put Plasma cannons on devastators when they can put grav cannons on them instead for 5 points less. They out preform Plasma Cannons in almost every way expect against very high toughness vehicles, you also dont need to over charge them to remove marines making them safer. Also one of those guys is hitting on 2+ thanks to the dev Sargent Auspex, throw a missile launcher into that squad and you have a kills every thing unit. The only difference is when fighting 4+ armor save units, but the majority of those all have 1 wound so the 2 damage amp on the grav cannon isn't even a factor and they are still better versus hordes as they get more shots. Winner: Devastators Grav cannons are just that good, lets hope that plasma cannons go down to 10 points where it belongs. Eradicators VS Attack Bikes: You should have compared eradicators to attack bikes, both are high toughness high wound count tank hunters with multi-meltas which can move and fire without penalty. That said you can take squads of 6 Eradicators and you max out at 3 attack bikes. The bikes DO get their double bolters though and can rapid fire them at range. Even so the Erdicators are better as they have both trans human AND their stupid +1 save stratagems making them hard as hell to kill so they can just walk up and kill things. They will get a massive points increase at some point and when that happens attack bikes will be looking way more appealing. Winner: Eradicators for now.... Biker VS Outriders: First born Bikers can take special weapons and their Sargent can take melee weapons and any one else that doesn't have one can take a chainsword. The primaris bikers however have access to trans human making them tougher for 1 CP. So I'm going to say you got this entirely backwards, the Firstborn are your offensive unit, a squad of 5 can take 2 meltas, a combi melta and 2 chain swords for ablative wounds but will die faster without trans human. The outriders can stick around longer, but lack any kind high strength/ap weapons forcing them into an anti-horde role. Winner: TIE, they do different things and you'll probably want both in a bike army. Assault Terminators VS Blade Guards: Terminators have deep strike.... so yeah, they get them selves into melee and TH/SS are tough enough that they can survive failing a charge. Blade guards are better as a front line unit as they can soak damage with TRANS HUMAN, funny how that keep showing up. So if you want a independent unit that will show up and potentially sucker punch a unit Terminators, if you want a front line unit that will hold agenst a unit like terminators blade guards. Winner: Another Tie, they do the same things in slightly different ways. Captains VS Captian: Captains are best when punching down, any thing serious that can deal damage to them will probably just kill them in one round. The win here goes to the Primaris because of trans human and the gravis armor giving them +1 toughness. Deep striking smash captains aren't going away though, and in that role the default TT/SS jump pack first born captain is going to still do work. Winner: Primaris Cpatian in Gravis armor. Assault intercessors VS Vangaurds: Vanguards win this handily, storm shields and lighting claws let them shred any thing effectively, they get the melta bomb stratagem for mortal wounds VS vehicles and their commander can take a thunder hammer to deal with high toughness targets. Their invuls and +2 save give them survivability and their jump packs give them mobility. They can be put in drop pods to turn one assault deep striking. THEY ALSO GET THE JUMP PACK MORTAL WOUND STRATAGEM! Assault intercessors have ob-sec sure but they will be taking damage the entire time they are on the board and will run into front line screens that will block their advance. Vanguards jump over the screens and kill every thing. Verdict, take both if you're a melee army like white scars or blood angles. Take vanguards in any other army if you want some thing that deletes things and flexes like absolute chads while doing it. Winner: SLAM DUNK FOR VANGUARDS. TL DR: You should take stratagems and weapon upgrades into account when doing comparisons as they heavily modify the outcomes of these kind of things.
I am absolutely baffled that plasma cannons didn't go up to 2 damage / 3 overcharge when the heavy plasma incinerator for hellblasters is 2 damage / 3 overcharge (also the heavy plasma cannon for dreadnoughts went up to 2 damage / 3 overcharge)
@@XerrolAvengerII Yeah I'm not sure what to do with basic plasma canons. They should be the most versatile weapon choice and have an accoiated point cost to go with the danger of enabling that verstility. The easy fix would be like you said make them 2/3 damage. But if they wanted to get nuts they could make them do 1d6 attacks when attacking under half range or over charging at half range doesn't over heat. Either of those would give them a niche and make them useful for firing on the move. Also plasma is still not great on dreadnoughts because it's blast and they cant fire it in close combat. Multi-Meltas are now the go to weapon on dreads in my opinion.
@@KarlRosner yeah, it's pretty much always been the case that assault marines aren't worthwhile. But in saying that them having 2 wounds is helps a bit. The jump pack mortal wounds and melta bombs strat also helps a bit but not much.
In case of the terminators you did not discuss, that the teleport homer got changed to offer way more utility. Now you can teleport your Terminators anywhere within 3“ of a friendly model with it. Way better than it used to be, since it also can’t be destroyed anymore!
Right, I mostly agree with the points made, however something that was noticeably neglected throughout the video was customizable weapon options. Yes, intercessors are probably better than basic tactical marines, but if you toss a plasma/combi plasma on a squad it costs 10 more than an intercessor. But now it’s damage output is massively increased, it’s more versatile, and you also have a bunch of a ablative wounds to protect your plasma guns. For Devastators, you can mix and match heavy bolters, missile launchers, or just single naked marines to tank some extra damage, all of which really pull them above the hellblasters. (No matter how you kit them out, eradicators just outcless them so much). With the vanguards, jump packs, power swords, thunder hammers, melta bombs, plasma pistols, and storm shields all make them so much better than assaults (except assaults are troops). The bladeguards vs. the terminators is actually really close, as they don’t get much in the way of wargear, I’d give it to the terminators just due to deepstriking (which is really strong for objectives) and because thunder hammers are still amazing) The sheer stupidity horrific number of attacks for outriders edge them out here, as well as better stratagem support. For the captains if you want a counterpunch buffbot, take a primaris Captain, preferably Gravis as he’s very hard to kill and has a powerfist. BUT if you want a captain to jump with the boys, and be an uncensored beatstick, take the firstborn. He can easily deepstrike, his mobility is totally unmatched, and he can still hit like a truck with something like a powefist or relic sword. He also is great for just running around to get his aura where he needs it. Lastly he can also still be an amazing character Assassin if he needs to be, as he gets that fly power and with a decent weapon he’ll likely crush most non special characters (like if you need a mek KFF gone, or a tau crisis commander, or an annoying farseer, or any guard hero’s.)
Definitely giving it to the Terminators. Deepstrike and teleport homer, and then they say Bladeguards have better transport options? That's just not right.
I'd always suspected they introduced Primaris as an "easy mode" army for absolute beginners. To the uninitiated, they seem more awesome. Bigger, sturdier, newer... with cool names for their weapons with lots of qualifiers like "Phobos High-Output Onslaught" Meanwhile, with the rules now, old Marines in the hands some someone who knows what they're doing will still win the day. Plus you need fewer Primaris to make a viable army, and they're being larger and all makes them easier to paint. The perfect balance of making their most popular product more accessible while not angering the base that made it that way in the first place./
@@cptncutleg well, old marines still have greater variety than almost any other faction. Primaris probably sells better because all of their stuff is new, and isnt replacing existing units/models.
@Teun vanderLugt The main thing for me is that Primaris models don’t look as stubby as Firstborn Marines. I always expected marines to look taller in model form then other models (Like SoB and Guard), and primaris matches that idea better than firstborn.
Some things of note: 5 Intercessors vs 5 Tacticals + Heavy Bolter are the same points, but the tacticals will outshoot the intercessors. A special/heavy weapon changes a LOT. Plasma Devs do get Blast. That makes them really interesting for a back field anti-MEQ unit. An apothecary would be good for babysitting either (and the classic is cheaper than the primaris), and if you slap a dreadnought in your back field, Wisdom of the Ancients gives the captain aura for 1CP. Eradicators vs Melta Devs: Eradicators are definitely BANANAS, but Melta Devs can be drop podded right into melta range, so maybe they have an unusual niche? Assault Intercessors for taking mid field objectives, Van Vets as a melee hammer into enemy's battleline sounds like a good balance. (i.e. if you already take tacticals/intercessors as troops, then Van Vets to destroy their back field would be fun). Outriders and classic tie shooting vs 3+ armour, but classic do better per point against anything lighter; outriders have 33% more melee attacks per point, but classic can take weapons on the sgt (so oddly enough, classic are better at shooting GEQs and punching MEQs while the outriders are the inverse). Special weapons also give classic bikers more battlefield roles (3x flamers for anti-infantry, 3x meltas for anti-armour, including combis) don't forget those! Captains: TH is still really good against a lot of hard targets (-2AP when target has an inv save isn't a big deal). And the Relic Blade blows away the master crafted power sword. S7 is a pretty magic number: wound T3 on 2's, T5 on 3's, and T7 on 4's (who runs anything T6 nowadays? lol). Add in some fun strats (Salamanders for +1S and double damage on 6's) and that jump or terminator captain is NASTY. (also note: terminator captain comes with deep strike!). But yeah, bare bones guy walking up the field goes to the Primaris. While not mentioned, I was really surprised to see how well point for point the predator stacks up against the gladiator (particularly the tri/quad-las pred, depending on how old you are hahaha). And yeah, overall it's really amazing how much life has been breathed into the classic range. I am excited to see my firstborn really hit the table again! (p.s. what do you think of drop pod armies?)
As a Black Templar player, I am bring both Bladeguard and Terminators in the same list. The bladeguard are holding my mid board while my Terminators going to where I need them. Nothing keeps your opponent cagey more than 10 terminators in deep strike reserve. My friend when he sees me with Terminators just cries as they always hurt something important. (Personally I like standard Terminators with PFs and SBs over the TH with SS as they will always at least shoot something just in case my charge fails.)
Im surprised you didn't mention the sneaky little trick for vanguard and tacticals. They come with the meltabomb strat to get some wonderful 2d3 mortals in melee against vehicles. mmmmmm
Love the comparison. I was surprised you did not compare grav devs with hellblasters. I am not sure primaris have a unit that can compete with them. They are so good!
One thing to think about in this discussion is the effect of Combat Squads on how a unit may perform on the tabletop. A lowly Tactical Squad can effectively be turned into a mini-devastator squad and a fast moving combat squad in a relatively low-cost transport. How about this as an example (there are many) 10 man squad with plasma gun, plasma cannon, and sergeant with powerfist with a Razorback transport. One Combat Squad contains both plasma weapons while the other squad is moving/advancing with the melee sergeant tucked away in a transport.
That comparison of Eradicators and Multi-melta Devs was a bit off as you forgot the Sgt's signum for +1 to hit and every Dev squad takes a cherub for another volley. So a Dev squad with 4 multi meltas and a cherub is 175 pts for 10 shots (4 shots with +1 to hit) the first time they fire at full strength. They also have access to the Razorback, Rhino or Drop Pod and Erads can only go in a Repulsor or outflank for a similar effect. If you bring strats into it you can spend CP to count as not having moved to get rid of the movement penalty. Erads get the benefit of transhuman phys but T4 and T5 are probably still going to get deleted in the current meta after they've made their presence felt so either delivery is probably going to die after 1 or 2 rounds of shooting. If you bring chapter abilities into it Ultras should always take Devs. They don't care about moving with heavies in turn 2 and 3. Iron Hands also in T1 for a drop pod strike. Raven Guard can use them to absolutely nuke and characters with +1 to hit and wound after putting them in deep strike although admittedly much less useful these days with fewer big characters being taken outside of Daemons.
Intercessor vs Tac Marine: agreed Eradicator, Hellblaster, Heavy Intercessor vs Devastator: Tough call. Primaris. Assault Intercessor vs Vets: i'd give it to the vets Bladeguards vs Terminators: Terminators (disagree on the Bladeguard) Bikes: The primaris ones. Their output is so insane even if they are a tad squishier. Captains: Buffbot = Primaris; Smash (even if nerfed) = Firstborn
Chase Leibenguth same opinion, terminators are better. A deep strike unit will force your opponent save their strength to react with your terminator’s teleport. Otherwise you can kill all their trashes stay at their deploy area whom raise the flags.
Devastators also can bring Grav weapons which primaris options cant even touch (except the techmarine and thats a pistol) I also feel weird that they complain about the impulsor being over priced but give it to the blade guard over teleporting terminators which you dont pay for. Alot of the comparisons felt like they were ignoring the options on firstborn, which is what separates them from primaris.
Devastators can bring not only grav, also melta guns and transport by drop pod which the only unit can deep strike in first turn. Sometimes we just need a solution to anti basilisks or something when you are play ultramarine or some chapters are not good at melee.
FYI, instead of filiming from the front and having the speakers sometimes look at each other, sometimes at the camera and sometimes in between the two off into space, you should stand or sit looking towards each other so you can easily look at the other; and have three cameras, one for each of you and one in the middle for the intro and outro etc. I understand budget it a constraint but its just a suggestion.
My army consists of both primaris and firstborn I always send out my outriders then push my first born marines out to keep the enemy busy once my first born died or made a big dent in there army I send my primaris squads out to either help or take the place of my first borns and to this day it always worked really Wel my army is worthles without my first borns ESPECIALLY my terminators
I think Blood Angel Vanguard Vets with power swords and storm shields will be really good. Strength 5 with +1 to wound on the charge means wounding MEQs on 2s and even T8 on 4s, with excellent AP.
Black Templars need both: Vanguard Vet's, Assault Termi's with SS&TH, Assault Intercessors, Bladeguard Vets, Primaris Chaplain on Bike, Outriders, perfect.
Hats off to GW for closing the performance gap quite a lot but Primaris overall are still better. And that’s standard operating procedure for GW. They are encouraging everyone to buy Primaris as they are the newer models. At least they subtly don’t want to invalidate the pre existing marines, which they could have done. They need to split the codexes next. I just hope the firstborn stay in the game in the long run.
Same here, I think it would be cool if they kept the first born around just on the web store like the hh models or try to put them on forge world. But I doubt anything like that would happen. Not gonna stop me from staying with a firstborn only chapter(for fluff)
I hope to see evaluations of units like this with Imperial Guard. There is a serious lack of high quality content for IG and Death Korps of Krieg, especially. I even enjoyed just listening to you discuss the best ways to use each unit, and what each unit is good at.
I really got lucky on Vanguard Vets. At the start of 8th I built 2 units with jump packs and storm shields, a relic blade on the Sgt, 2x power fists, and 2x power weapons (one sword, one axe). The codex for 9th lets me keep all of this for even better points efficiency!
Primaris models have the immense advantage of being truescale and not being ridiculously-proportioned. This makes the hobby as a whole much less silly and infantile. If only for that reason, people should stop using the old models. GW should have just ceased producing the shity sculpts and said "hey, these truescale models are the new models for all marines now", and called it a day. Exactly like what they do with all other factions' model updates.
@@EidolonSpecus or they could have just done what they did with eldar, orks, and guard and just never update the space marine models. But in all seriousness the primaris and marines to a lesser extent are so similar I have a hard time telling the difference between units. If you put 2 primaris infantry models next to each other I doubt I could tell which was which
@@sturm9087 All the models are clearly different. Different poses, differently shaped armor, and differently shaped weapons, etc. Not everyone lacks observation and attention to detail to that degree. Warhammer models in particular are aesthetically-exaggerated and significantly different from one another, in a way that most units in a more realistic wargame would not be. If you have trouble differentiating primaris models, when Adeptus Astartes models tend to be the most distinct from one another overall, then good luck playing against literally any other faction in the game.
@@EidolonSpecus and ? I went in for the silliness , I wouldn’t want a hobby that take itself too seriously. Old marines were more than ok and they should just have remade the sculpts like the chaos marines did. Sadly it would sell less. I already got 10 000 points of firstborns, and While I enjoy the new range it is ridiculous, our codex is three times as big as the necron one and bigger than any other armies
@@ragefacile4832 What makes 40k great is in balancing on the fine line between sillyness and exaggeration. Exaggeration is not necessarily silly. Sillyness is not necessarily exaggerated either. Sillyness without exaggeration can be lame. Exaggeration without sillyness can come off as tryhard.
devastators can fire 11 melta shots (melta on sergeant) that can be split-fired against multiple targets. A squad of 6 eradicators costs more and has to fire all 12 shots at the same target or they lose 1/2 their output. Since I play Salamander, devastator are better by a stupid large margin. Reroll all hits and wounds with meltas and stratagem removes movement penalty, which allows them split fire efficiently.
Black Templars - Sword Brethren and Crusader Squads are both boss with the new First Born buffs. Crusaders especially since they're the only way to take Scouts as a Troop choice, but in addition they also get the re-rolls on 1s in melee with equal Neophytes and Initiates, on-top of gaining access to both the Melta Bomb and Smokescreen Keywords. One 10 man squad is only 160pts as well. A Rhino with a 10-man Crusader Squad is a decent investment at only 90pts (with the extra Storm Bolter + HK). So you've got decent melee (Astarte's Chainsowrd + Combat Knives with extra attacks), a -1 to hit (1CP Strat), a baked in re-roll of 1's, anti-tank (Weapons + 1CP strat), as well as ObSec, all for 250pts (with transport). Additionally, you can also bundle up a further 5 Tactical Marines with either Heavy/Melee Weapons (Heavy Bolter) or Special Weapons (Plasma, Melta. Flamer, etc) and a further 5 Neophytes with Boltguns and a Heavy Weapon of their own (Heavy Bolter again). Granted Blast weapons and all, but that's pretty significant sticking power, and the only way you can have a larger than 10 man squad - if that's your gig. Pair that up with either a Chapter Master with the Crusader's Helm and the Paragon of Glory trait, and nasty things abound. Currently my mates at the table do not like dealing with a full Crusader Squad + 2 squads of Assault Intercessors, as well as a full 10-man Tac Squad with a Heavy Bolter - which is right around 450pts. ...sigh...starting to feel like the the Black Templars' version of Chapter Master Valrak over here...
I know it won't happen, but I would love to see Primaris and Firstborn become separate army books. There are far too many options in the book as it is, there is more than enough already to split them.
Tacticals over intercessors all day, any day. Multi-melta + combi-weapon combined with the new extra wounds means your opponent has to deal over 7 damage before taking out their high value guns. Intercessors have no high value guns at all. Although, I guess intercessors are better as throw-away unit that does nothing but stand on objectives.
Indeed, they didn't really talked about the tacticals's options like combi plasma + plasma rifle that does a lot of damage, and they also didn't talk about the stenguard veterans that are really better intercessor ( but without objective secured ).
Any thoughts on a Jumpack captain with relic sword and combi-melta? Has good threat range with the ability to hurt vehicles or characters. Deathwatch can really make it a charter hunter with Xenos phase sword and master crafted weapon and champion of humanity. Str 5 AP-4 2D no invuln saves with +1 wound and attack vs characters.
Ah yes, eradicators. Ran into a guy at lgs, said he wanted a game. He put 18 eradicators on the table, i walked out. might have been a dick move, but i really didn't care
Sounds needlessly salty. Play the game, figure out how to counter it. Unless he's "that guy", I doubt he intended on you walking out if the story is true considering he put some money in getting 18 Eradicators.
@@s0ulsurviv0r74 in term of list I meant. So you had what? 2 Captains, 1 Psyker and a several Intercessors with Bolt Rifles? Also too had you seen the Eradicators in play or was the reaction based on the whole Competitive community going “Oh Mer Gud OP Nerf GW”?
I think your assessment of Devs vs. Eradicators missed a few key points namely; - Signum from the Sgt 2+ to hit - Armorium Cherub for double shooting - Delivery - Most importantly drop pods Deep striking those weapons within half range and splitting fire without a loss in efficiency is brutal. Especially say Iron Hands, T1 no movement penalty, re-rolling one's.
It seems like in a lot of ways, the better one is going to depend on what you're doing with the. I probably didn't tool up my vanguard vets to camp an objective after clearing it, but if my assault intercessors did that it wouldn't bother me. Same with terminators and blade guard. Blade guard is a lot faster, so I seem to end up leading the attack with them, and then using terminators as a defensive line.
You guys are sleeping on Deathwatch Veterans. Bolter & chainsword makes their staline just a better Intercessor... then add in the options and you have a slam-dunk winner on the Firstborn side. Also note that Deathwatch Bikers pay 0 points for their extra Attack and Leadership btw.
an argument for the termie/bladeguard is the damage output/absorbing, if a bladeguard was attacking a THSS termie, he needs to beat his invul twice to kill him, the termie only needs to beat the bladeguards invul once, ive also found -2 it's really painful for bladeguards compared to the termies, 4+ save vs a 3+
I think on the Hellblasters/ Eradicators vs Devs you forgot to factor in the strat that allows a moved unit to act as stationary. Sure it's going to cost you a CP to keep them up with your captain, but you're then able to move you Heavy Weapons without suffering a -1.
Was a shame you did not compare intercessors to sternguard veterans They are the same points, but sternguard have better! stats (they also have the 2 attacks but are actually higher in leadership 8 vs 7) and the sternguard have a better gun at -2 + they have a host of weapon options and access to the transports you mention They loose obsec and are elites, but there are a couple of easy ways to make them obsec in the codex sternguard are a definite contender there Like you didn't compare assault intercessors to assault marines? in that case you picked the vanguard vets? lacking a bit of consistency there guys. And you didn't even cover normal terminators vs aggressors... bit of a missed opportunity with this video, might have been better spread over a few vids. Just some constructive criticism, keep rolling :D
@Panzerfrank yea was doing the same! 10 termies with chainfists. Might have a VoT libby with them and just plough all 10 into something one day but combat squad is probably the sanest option. Although i can see for some lists i'm gonna buy a second detachment. Might be worth including a chapter master when i do as should just about make the 3cp back over the course of the game
I think they should / need to drop the points of the first born marines to make them comparable. But I suppose GW want older players to buy whole new primaris army
I'm curious to see what changes will be coming to Deathwatch. I think the Firstborn are very versatile and VERY modular while the Primaris are a very solid jack of all trades to cover any weak spots the firstborn leave.
Tbh its really what you want atm Primaris are a streamlined part of the army and what you see is what you get. their flexibility lies in greater number of stratagems that really make it easy at first glance to make them work. First born however have this flexibility in wargear and sometimes rules. Its basically points vs command points. With a few exemptions here and there. And i dont think you can discount melta keyword atm it gives tactical marines a TACTICAL flexibility that intercessors simply dont have. Put a storm shield on them with stealthy and laugh at how much your opponent has to throw at them just to kill em are just a few of the things you can pull
You guys compared the regular codex terminators to bladeguard vets here. The primaris boys came out on top but what if you look at deathwing or space wolf terminators and compare them. I'm not talking about chapter tactics but the fact that those factions can mix and match their terminator loadouts. Would that change the outcome of the comparison? Would love to hear your thoughts.
My unsolicited opinion, it depends on chapter. Black Templars really prefer the firstborn marines. I haven't seen the new book, but if crusade squads are intact then especially so. I think tactical marines will remain cheaper objective holders to hide out of sight. I actually view firstborn as having better offense with their special weapons (outside of tactical/devastator squads). Thunderhammer/SS terminators are the best anvil unit, potentially in the game. Primaris are "aspect" like because they get almost 0 options relative to firstborn. You can have a highly defensive primaris army with some punch or a punchy firstborn army if you're willing to pay the points. Or a blend if you like.
I just started a blood angels army. I am also doing necrons I have like 20 unbuild intercessors but I do have 20 deathcompany 15 sanguinary guard mephiston astorath sanguinor libby dread so a bunch of angel stuff. I'm just sitting here wondering should I maybe take my marines a different direction than the blood angels? having a hard time deciding.
What are your thoughts about 9x vanguard vets, no jump pack in a drop pod with a company ancient with a primaris chaplain on bike with the 2+ charge range for whitescars army? (Company ancient to give them obsec with warlord trait)
Death Company Primaris are still a bit stick with a ridiculous "Shooting Death Company Unit" reputation but they can use both transhuman phisiology and Refuse to Die lead them to become a very strong bullet magnet.
I would've liked to see some updated sculpts and re-engineered kits with the 9th edition release. A lot of the Firstborn kits are... well, they're not Primaris kits.
I think they both have there ups and downs like primaris squads dont have real anti vehicle while first born does and once first born get 2 wounds i think they will be better cus thats what puts primaris above them is they cant just get wiped off since they have 2 wounds while first born u could have a really exspensive squad that could easily be killed
GW should introduce "Availability": Primaries marines are an experiment and nobody here is Tlailaxu that have Axolotl tanks to make them quick... so Primaries should be less available than First born which would fit background as well
Only reason to use Devastators is for Grav or melta (after it's buff)... Nobody uses plasma on them. Rievers are just crap right now, which is sad because they're so damn cool looking.
So Salamander Primaris Captain from the Indomitus box + The Burning Blade Relic+ Anvil of Strength Warlord Trait = Str 9 -5ap -2 damage! Basically hitting and wounding most things on 2's and no armor saves!
First borns became better during 8th edition when codex 2.0 happened. In 9th Edition, firstborn still have a place. But after the new codex dropped. Transhuman physiology and Honor the Chapter being relegated to Primaris only is a huge nerf to Firstborn. So is the nerf to Master Artisan which is the only thing that really makes Tactical squads with special and heavies shine. Therefore Primaris ARE better than firstborn and it is an intentional design choice by GW to make people buy Primaris. Not to mention Transhuman is 1 CP For a 5 man primaris squad. If you don't have MA and the fact that it doesnt work the same way as before there is no way tactical marines are better than Primaris even with special or heavy weapon. That 1 weapon makes little to no difference at all. People like to think that paying 10 pts for that extra weapon means a lot but they fail to factor in that game only has 5 turns, that is if you get to shoot. If you actually hit.. you still have to wound, ignoring all the modifiers etc...
Disagree about Bladeguard vs Assault Termies, you are only S5 with Bladeguard. You won't be taking down high toughness enemy units not nearly as well as with Assault Termies and Lighting claws are better for lower toughness. Also i disagree about the Devastators vs Hellblasters. I think Devastators have now more utility since Hellblasters lost their re-rolls you will overcharge them much less.
@@ianmuggli8132 I was mainly thinking about the overcharged plasma and 9th edition having less re-rolls in general. Plus you have Signum + Cherub on Devastator.
But they wounds vehicules and monsters on 3+ ( or 4+ ) instead of 5+, bladeguards are really good but mostly against intantry, when they fight against thing with T6 or better they just loses about 50% of their strength while the TH/SS terminators remains great against basically everything that isn't a hord.
@@CloneDAnon both are pretty good. Bladeguard is the one thing i wanted since they released the first primaris, since Black Templars don't need more bolters.. They do their job very good. The only problem with Bladeguard vets is, you need an impulsor. So silly, that they cannot be transported in Rhino's, Razorback's, Drop Pods, Landraiders.. So silly and fcked up.
@@NIMMHATVRapBeats Yea they dont have deep strike either like termies (unless Raven Guard). What i rather wanted from primaris marines is new jump infantry.
I'm sorry, besides the primaris specific strategies, old marine's are way more versatile while primaris do one job very very well. In my personal opinion, versatility with a reduced points cost is a win. I get more bang for my points.
So glad i own 15 vanguard veterans now :D Edit: point for point firstborn bikers do identical shooting against meqs and do more specialised damage in melee than outriders.
Just take squads of 5 tactical marines Sargent with lighting claw combi melta one heavy weapon heavy grav anti tank with melta elite killing grav. fighting the claw it gives ya extra attack now and reroll wounds and -2 best all rounder
My Main Point, for not liking them, is that Primaris stand just for the replacement of what maked the Imperium great. And They are Heresy for they are not the Emperors real Soldier.
@@davida138 To be fair though. You can't compare the Imperium to the modern United States. The idea of a 'technological astartes rennaissance' just thanos snapped into existence by Cawl doesnt make sense to me, and is what really grinds a lot of people's gears
@@kraftyevan No, what grinds people's (or at least my) gears is that Primaris are almost entirely equivalent to old marines but just slightly better. They were made purely because GW wanted everyone to rebuy their entire marine army and not for any other reason.
@@kraftyevan Bobby G returned and with him came reform. Cawl had long being working on his projects in secret. Guillaume allowed him to advance his projects. Guillaume had to reform the imperium away from static dogma to accept new tech and organization.
I still feel my firstborn captain is way better than primaris.. jump pack... Or terminator armor are amazing. Better weapon combos.. the whole nine yards...
Well, if you have already an SM Army, and you don't want to plkay at the upper tables on GTs, I see no reason why one should not play with "First born" anymore. I own north of 25KP of various SM Chapters and I do not intend to turn them into a plastic pie. Aside from the countless hours for assembly, kit-bashing, and painting, I still like these little guys. The Primaris problem arose only due to the fact, that GW didn't do their homework already back in 1987 when I bough my first tin/lead marines. Their size was already way to small compared to normal humans and didn't reflect all the descriptions in Rougue-Trader. Only shortly after the SM, the first plastic marines came out which were just a copy of the metal ones ( in terms of dimensions ) . After the first Imperial Guard regiment was offered ( white plastic ! ) it was obvious. Cadians stand taller then any space Marines. THAT should havbe been the right time to go to true-scale with SMs. Instead, they came up with Orks standing lower then Imps...That all aside : I still play with those minis and I have not melted them to plastic pies and tin/lead bullions.... In terms of game play, especially now with the increase of wounds, First born remain an extremely versatile and durable Army. Actually they are only ones which can use drop pods for the favoured way of warfare for Angels of Death....! ( Aside from CSM, which have currently no Newborn at all ).
A lot of it comes down to preference. For instance, if you like soulless, bland, boring models with terrible background and lore than are nothing more than a marketing team play to get you to replace your marine army you’ve spent years collecting and good money on, then primaris are you boys. If you like well designed, fun, interesting models that had a great deal of time, effort and passion put in to them, then the OG are your guys 😉.
I'm personally using some primaris to truescale some first born stuff. Im looking to kitbash sanguinary guard and the assault intercessors. OG marines just look so goofy next to primaris. I never did like the squat stance/gorilla arms and compared to new DG/TS and Generic Chaos Marines they look plain silly.
@@weakish I've had good success upscaling old marine torsos (w/arms sill attached) on top of hh mk 2 - 4 legs. Still slightly shorter than primaris, but with a boost to the power pack they are on par with csm
@@vancodling4223 I might do that then, Im also hoping with the BA codex drop next month we will see new models. i have a feeling some heroes get this treatment as one is getting completely revamped.
Also on the firstborn characters (Apoc, Ancient, Champion) your taking them as a free slots as long as you have company veterans which are a free slot if you have captain.
