I don't mind set up books. As long as you deliver the payoff in a great and satisfying way. Wheel of Time is a great example. I'm on the last 300 pages of the last book, and it's paying off so far.
@@2ToRamble Yeah, maybe a better example would be Joe Abercrombie. I know you mentioned that the first book of First Law was great but the plot for you wasn't necessarily paid off. Its pretty much a set-up book, but because Abercrombie writes the characters so well you forgive it and read on. I think thats a better example.
I feel like Rhythm of War was one of those setup books where neither the A plot or B plot were concluded and was pretty much just preparing for a book 5 finale the entire time.
I really enjoyed this video! I usually have to stop around the 15-minute mark when the spoilers start 🤣, but I got to see it all this time. To Richard’s point at the end, it was a great RU-vid video. Greetings from Costa Rica 🇨🇷!
A set-up book is fine... as long as it's not the first book. You need to find a way to give us some kind of book-long prologue to the series which doesn't require setup, or jump into the action and backtrack later. The first book has to convince me the rest of the series is worth reading, and that's a much bigger lift if you're trying to do that while setting everything up.
I mean, Hitchhiker's is the name of the first book, so it's still correct. Honestly though, the later books just feel like longer episodes in the same episodic nature.
9:50 Battlestar Galactica Atlantis definitely felt like this. There would be multiple episodes dedicated to a specific character’s growth, and then in the next episode they would revert to the start of their character arc. It was jarring 😂 and felt like the studio wanted to pump out as many episodes as possible without any regard for the audience
As someone who started with historical fiction and only recently got into fantasy and sci-fi, I gotta admit I hate set-up books. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather a book be 700-1000 pages with some payoff instead of 300 pages with primarily build-up.
See... my thought is, every single book should have at least one "main" plotline, which has set-up, progress, and payoff inside of that book. I think any good book, especially a book in a series, should contain elements of overarching plot, so you can have set up in one book, progress in another, and payoff later on. In general I'm opposed to long waits between beats, if something is set up in one book and not mentioned in the next book and then progress is in the book after, that's usually not gonna be great. If that plotline is minor enough it can be done well, but it has to be the sort of thing where, it's almost an easter egg, because if it's pivotal then it's going to feel under-developed, or like the author is just trying to trick the audience like, aha, you didn't think about this woman cuz I haven't referenced her in three books but suddenly she jumps out to save the day. Also by that point a book is getting very complex, and the more complicated a book is, the more skill the author needs to pull it off.
To answer the first question a minute i to the video, books should really feel like a season because you have to wait atleast a year between books. An episode of tv you get a new one the following week
I had not realized that Rythym of War was a setup book because of how heavily invested in the world and characters I was. Until I saw another comment that mentioned it was 😂
I definitely prefer a satisfying payoff of some sort. But it is also true that some payoffs just don't Lans as well because that wasn't the plot line you were interested in.
Ohhhhh this is a good one. I think when done well both have their place. But when done poorly it likely feels worse. And god I just realized I’m so behind on your videos🤦🏻♂️
I don't know about lazy but it doesn't signal good writing to me. A big part of the craft is intentionality in what you put down on the page-boiling your grand vague idea down into tight effective prose that has standalone value, as is well placed and paced. I want to be amazed by every page and be absolutely sure of its necessity, otherwise why am I wasting my time? I have TV, you and myself to do that for me.
This is somewhat unrelated but Austin, if you see this, I genuinely believe you would enjoy Fires of Heaven (WOT book 5) far more than what you've read thus far. The same for b6 but then, sadly, The Slog...
Good video. Is it true that the WOT could have been edited better and maybe was a couple of books too long? Not sure. As someone who read them as they came out, I always enjoyed them even if they were just world building or set-up books to further the plot. The people who read them now and don't have that wait between books, look at things much differently. Will always be my favourite series. From that first cover of Lan and Moiraine. At some point I will have to break down and buy those covers from Juniper books! Be well, stay safe!
Despite how much modern fantasy owes to Tolkien, I wish more authors would copy Lord of the Ring's structure -- it has the perfect balance between episodic and serialized storytelling. The story is divided into six "books," each with its own self-contained arc. And each chapter is also a tiny arc with its own setup and payoff, while still moving the overall story forward. It feels like something memorable happens in each chapter, and each "book" ends with a satisfying payoff. Despite the entirety of Lord of the Rings being as long as many single books from modern fantasy series, I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't epic or huge enough, or that it doesn't devote enough time to world-building, characters, or imagery. The problem with modern fantasy isn't length -- it's efficiency of storytelling.
are you talking about 'setting expectations' ? Its a phrase we use a lot in customer service, but might apply to this topic as well. Does the author set up an expectation and then deliver what you expect?
I gotta say, writing a full scale novel is freaking exhausting. To even make an attempt at writing a big series of books you have to be insane. I'm absolutely willing to forgive authors some lazy solutions, if this is what allows them to carry on with the series. If an author need a setup book, let them have a setup book. As long as it's well written and the characters are interesting it's all good.
I read books to be entertained. I don’t watch much TV or movies. If there isn’t a pay off in each book, I likely won’t read the next book. Because what’s the point? I don’t want to have to read 10 books to get a pay off. I’m not saying Lord Vuldamort needs to be killed in book 1. But there has to be satisfaction and mini pay offs.
I think most fantasy authors should be able to be more concise than they usually are. I thought Book 4 of Stormlight was a real nothing-burger of a setup. It probably could have been half the size and nothing would be significantly lost. I feel the same about Wot. I think it would be a much better series if it was only 7 novels
Also, y’all brought up Dungeon Crawler Carl, but I’m interested to hear what yall think about other popular LitRPGs? They’re extremely episodic (Ex: The first Defier, Primal Hunter) (DCC is actually pretty good about concluding books in a satisfying way) it was a lil jarring at first, but now I’m used to it.
I feel that it's so hard to even write a book, every author gets a huge pass in book 1 for me for any set up. Any new set up that happens in a book 2 now they're established and can keep going is generally ok cause thats expansion time. But if you're still dropping huge world bldg in book 7 (I'm looking at you harry potter 7), NO PASS. Lol
Just incase the dread of all the work Richard would have to do without Austin isn't enough to hold off a homicide... I'm not sure Richard arguing with himself works for more than an episode or two. Keep Austin around, please.
My issue with the Wheel of Time was how very derivative it was, and worse, that he just didn't do his research on what he was stealing. He could have come up with his own symbol for men and women but instead he stole the yin-yang. And rather than spend the like eight seconds of googling it would have taken to realize each side was already associated with a gender, he just picked the one he liked better, and got it wrong. It stops being an homage and starts being just stealing things. Like the return of the mystical king named Pendragon. Oh I'm sorry, he butchered it to Paendrag or something instead, to try and pretend he was coming up with an idea instead of just stealing one. And don't get me started on how he doesn't care enough to see what a genuine polyamorous relationship is like, he was just a dirty old perv who wanted the fantasy of his main character having a stable of whores he could use.
I posted a video about my wheel of time journey so far. 11 books in and it's truly the best. People have no patience for slow natural storytelling. Set up books are a true gift to readers. We do not deserve them. The author shares more of their world with us through them. More development and growth. Makes those "payoff" books that much more impactful. The amazing thing about Wheel of Time, is that each book is a chapter of the overarching story. Set up book or not, each book matters to the full story. You take away one, you are missing out on the full experience. And I always say this on my channel, it is the journey not the destination. Wheel of Time is about the journey. And a journey well worth experiencing. Currently on book 12 of Wheel of Time and I am sad I am closing in on the end.
Well said, the storytelling is incredible. No rushed payoffs, everything that happens and all the character growth is earned, nothing feels cheap ever. I hope you enjoyed book 11, it's my favorite book of all time. What a return to form and phenomenal parting gift from Robert.
Haha, I come at this from such a different perspective! I've always thought of series that deliver payoff with each book as being the poor writing, because it is more about an immediate reward than a compelling, realistic story. I've always disliked when book series have a complete story in one volume, because I feel it's unrealistic. _The Lord of the Rings_ is my lodestar here: Nothing gets wrapped up in any one volume, just like life; it's only collectively that it all comes together. _Harry Potter_ on the other hand (and I like HP, don't get me wrong) is so episodic (not using "episode" the way you have in this video, but more how you've used "season"), where each book is its own contained story despite the overarching plot threads; very entertaining, but decidedly less impressive to me when all is said and done-and it just makes me take a story less seriously when it's written this way.
