Are the Magnepan 0.7i BETTER than the LRS? 

It is always a pleasure listening to you guys - always on point!

Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts on these speakers. I have been struggling with the decision between LRS vs .7 vs 1.7 and I think it’s just going to come down to room size for me but hearing the discussion helps me to think through the problem. Thanks again!

Really enjoy listening to the host speak. Knowledgeable and we'll spoken.

Agree about the warmer tonality of the LRS+ vs. .7s. I got rid of my .7s and kept the LRS+. Always surprised by the LRS's for what they are.

I enjoy this channel very much.

Very interesting and informative guys . Being a Quad 989 electrostatic user for many years i am now sorely tempted to give Magnepans a try. However before i do can you please define for me in length , width and height what you consider a small , medium and large room is ? Thanks !

Have have heard mixed reviews for the magnepan LRS and power requirements. Would the mcintosh mc302 and the mc 402 be enough to drive these speakers well?

Nostalgic mention of ProAc super tablettes there..they were the first speakers I actually bought when I was 18... Roksan Xerxes, Rega RB300 re wired with Van den hul,Audio Techica ATF5, Arcam Delta 90 on Sound organisation ZO21 stand, Naim naca5 and my ProAc on Target HJ24t stands... That was 1988, ten years after having interest in my grandfathers system..... ... The interest has never left me.. and will always be a link to my grandad.

Really well done!!!! Thank you!!! Concert for George...The Inner Light performed by Anoushka Shankar and Jeff Lynne( and others)... is over the top... on You Tube... and if Anoushka's beauty is stuck in your head for the next week... well...You're Welcome...

The LS35/A and Spica TC-50s were important milestones in my audio journey. A rare couple of older speakers that are still excellent today.

Hi, I was wondering what is your opinion in the difference between Magnapan .7is and 1.7is ? i have the space for them both and have decided to use a Hagel 390 to drive the speakers. Where i live, it is impossible for me to be able to try both speakers before making a decision to buy one of the Magnapan speakers

Guys, correct me if I am wrong, but from what I can gather so far, it seems more important to allow Magnepan speakers to have adequate space away from BACK walls, but it’s not as critical to have space away from SIDE walls, since the speakers send sound to the back and front of the panels and not the sides? Also, what if at most I have 18-24” away from the BACK wall, but 36” is kind of pushing it? Can I still get good performance?

I believe my vintage 1095 Rotel 5.1 surround sound dedicated amp, which is rated conservatively by Rotel, at 200w per channel would do a fine job in powering either the both the LRSs or the .7s just fine. Any thoughts??

Vibrato is a way varying the pitch higher and lower around the main frequency. It can be broad or narrow or fast or slow or anything in between.

I owned a pair of Innersound Kaya electrostatics and they did sound stage and imaged like no other speaker I’ve heard. I had a Ayre SACD player and a VPI Turntable with and Aesthetics preamp, and a Manley Steelhead phono preamp, with a Benchmark DAC. I was in heaven

Thanks for this video guys I've been looking over the magnepan lrs / 0.7. I'm hoping I can find a local hifi place to geek out at - or road trip to Canada some day ;) My biggest concern is amp ;) I'm building an m2x . The toroid is like 650kva. Knowing they have an option to test out in home makes me much much less nervous!

I have a vintage Rotel 1095 5.1 amplifier. It is rated conservatively at 200 watts per channel. I think this amp will drive the LRS's quite well. Any thoughts?

Wow - I had nearly totally forgotten about Ring; blast from the past! I went there infrequently when I lived in Toronto; I spent more time at Bay-Bloor because it was very close to where I lived at Spadina & Bloor.

Years ago I had the Magnepan IIIa speakers so I suspect the NEW version to be better in some ways. I enjoyed the IIIa's overall.

Can a Krell KHA300 power the .7i speakers.

This video is very organic

Not sure I agree that panel speakers can't image because they aren't point sources. Neither is a multi-driver box.

Adrian, if you haven't already, listen to Sarah Morrau's cover of Both Sides Now. I never knew Joni Mitchell wrote it until you mentioned it recently along with how much you like Joni's recent version.

You guys are awesome and helped me tremendously with my LRS's. My question is this. I m at 8 months right now with my LRS's. I am contemplating doing the upgrade but want to make sure it is worth it. If I upgrade, I want to upgrade to the BEST Magnepan has to offer that I can afford, which would be the 1.7i's. So....... Should I just be happy and stick with the LRS or upgrade to the 1.7i? Is it worth it?

I miss my small Apogee Centaur Minors and am considering the LRS. Difficult to get an audition in Australia anywhere. So I'm hesitant.

How about the LRS + ? Does that have a place in that list?

Interesting observation about panels not being able to image. My apogee Centaurs created a pinpoint image that was an almost palpable image. If only I could audition a pair of LRS in Adelaide Australia.

just curious, all those details that you guys mentioned you never heard from the music on your playlist before. are you saying you never heard them on your infinite more expensive systems?

Very interesting comment about Maggies not imaging. My first high-end speaker was a pair of Magnepan 1.5 in about 1998. They sounded fantastic in the showroom, but I could never get them to work in my room. After about 2 years, I sold them and purchased a pair of Signet SL260s (bookshelf) which could disappear and image very well. From those I moved on to Proac 2.5s. Seeing all the hoopla about the LRS has me wondering if it was poor placement of the Maggies, or are they simply incapable of imaging? Maggie owners, can they image?

Can anyone advise if they think this system would sound good? I have a Yamaha A-S801 integrated amp and an Anthem MCA-225 for my amplification options. I would buy the LRS + and my listening space is a 22x30 detached insulated and drywalled garage in Chicago. There is furniture, carpets, rugs, artwork on the walls and plenty of curtains hanging on all interior walls minus the 8 foot party door and the 16 foot over head door on the opposite wall. Ceiling height is 8 feet. When in use, I could pull the speakers easily 4 feet into the room and have them as much as 4 feet from any side walls. My couch is on wheels and I can position it wherever needed. Probably 8 feet from the panels to my head and the speakers 7 feet apart. My source is 100 percent cd format of basically 1975 to 1990 classic rock. I enjoy casual listening at about 88db but like an occasional blast in the 97db region for short times. Would I absolutely need a couple of sub woofers? I'm not particularly a "bass head" but I do need some. I really like detailed midrange because to me, that's where the emotion and communication lies more. Please offer me some suggestions or advice. Thank you all!

Well now you got the LRS + mostly a newer stand which can help with sound, not sure what the other refinements are.. Wendell tends to hold back on what was specifically done to them. I had the 1.7i which where excellent but a tad too large.

Thanks guys! I was debating between the two and now going with the .7’s:) I still don’t know how a 60w (granted Maggies are 2-4ohm draw) Hegel can drive them sufficiently? I am figuring perhaps having to go with a Crown XLS to really drive these hard.

In defense of the LRS I heard the Maggie mini which are desktop speakers even smaller. I was shocked at the accuracy and clarity along with the Maggie sub. I have the .7 and love them. Never heard the LRS before but I’d imagine it’s a fast speaker.

Space requirement of the Magnepan are a deal breaker for most I would assume. I was very intrigued by your various reviews of the Magnepan speakers but there is nowhere in my home where we have 4 feet from the wall as a starting point for the speaker. Only those with huge rooms need apply. *the amplifier you are discussing is another matter, as I would assume this is within the buying options of many and usable for most (a good call out and I might get one myself) I am still stuck on the positioning requirements of the Magnepan and how it doesn't really matter how nice they are or the price point if you have nowhere to set them up it seems a wasted exercise. How about a review of the better speaker options for those could swing ownership of a Hegel or Naim but with speaker placement (need to value every square foot) thx

I just ordered the LRS+ (6 month wait) and because of my room size the lady I ordered from (I ordered directly from Magnepan) said she wouldn't recommend anything bigger for my room which is 10×18×10 depthxwidthxheight.

There's a lot of nonsense out there folks. Yes, the Maggie's are best with high power amps, but my 1.6QRs could sound pretty amazing with a Outlaw receiver. Now of course they sounded even better with my Stratus mono blocks, but within reason you can play .7 and LRS with modest power. "Good sound" is pretty darn subjective. I'm listening to expensive little Revel 126be monitors now, but you can get amazing music quality out of 500 dollar paradigms. Getting back to the Maggie's, the LRS have some advantages as they are easier to drive and may work better in certain rooms. And anyone who says Magnepan's don't image well, doesn't know how to set them up. My 1.6 pair could not image as well as my 3X more expensive Merlins, but they were still very good.

Do you think 0.7 sounds good with Mcintosh MC 302?

I have to laugh. I have a pair of Spica TC-50's that I modified in the early 80's. I was introduced to them when I worked as an electronic tech at a place in Pittsburgh called OPUS one. To this day they are still one of the best imaging speakers I have ever heard.

Great explanation in the caveats of the soundstage and the lack of imaging with the Magnepan speakers.

You can close your eyes and point to the singers head on my Maggie 1.7i's. You know exactly where the drummer is. It takes lots of time to find the exact location and toe in. Unlike as you say the laws of physics which would only allow your ears to locate an inch high horizontal strip for location. Clamps down the horizontal axis. And so many speakers stagger the tweeter and mid making group delay to each ear even worse.

True soundstage imaging does not seem possible unless you have all nonamplified instruments scattered around a stage and the only recording microphones are a single stereo pair.

Gateway drug? I love it!

Do you guys think an original Nait 5i would work to drive an LRS or perhaps even .7 ?

I am surprised by their statement that Maggies don't image at all. I run my .7 using the PS Audio BHK250 amp. With speakers about 5 feet from the front wall, the sound is presented in a very holographic and transparent way - it comes from behind the speakers with a wide and tall sound stage as if the performance is taking place right in front of me, and I can easily pinpoint instruments between the speakers and even outside of them in some cases. Example being the "Train Song" by Holle Cole where a minute or so into the track the sound from a triangle can be heard coming from the left of center then moving to the right. So, you can argue how well Maggies image, but not imaging "at all" is pretty extreme based on my personal experience. The comparison is good otherwise.

I have the LRS Plus I like them a lot but it took a lot to set them up to get the best sound.Both amp and placement.

So that little Hegel was up to the task? Very interesting to me, since I've got a pair of .7s, and while they sound pretty darn good powered by excellent tube amps, I'm wondering what the speakers might sound like powered by a beefy SS amp or two. Gotta try a proper loaner to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks for another great video guys.

First great video and comparison. Second, holy cow, this is the first time I'm hearing from anyone about the fact that Magnapan's don't image like box speakers. I've been watching reviews after reviews talking about Magnapan's and how incredible they are , but if one's preference is pin-point imaging along with soundstage , like me, then these speakers would not be a good candidate therefore $700 or $2000 would not have been well spent. Thanks for shedding incredible light into this conversation. Haven't heard any in person so hope to experience them at one day regardless..

I'm glad that room size was mentioned. Don't you think that each speaker should be measured by their appropriate room size?

I'm thinking the statement of Magnepans not being able to image is a possible misunderstanding of the tech. Were it one big panel, he would probably be right. But it's not. It's strips, and the tweeter is a long vertical strip on one side that is 1/8th of an inch wide. While it's not a point, it's more of a line. So I imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that the imaging would be anisotropic... meaning, very good on the horizontal axis and terrible on the vertical axis. You can also place the tweeters on the inside or the outside resulting in a wider sound stage and better imaging.

Hi , I wonder you get my email. I sent around Sunday but still no reply

bang-on topic again, these speakers sound wonderful from what i hear you all saying about them, I would love to sample a pair of these Maggie LRS at home but there's nobody in u.k. who does that, or even sells you the LRS's without asking a little over one-£ for every one-$ of their U.S. price, they can't be that heavy & big to cross the pond without some hi-if dealer on a disproportionately high profit-margin for serving you LRS's. After watching this vid i've realised my Jungson JA-99C power-amp will not cut it with these maggies, & you've convinced me before now from all your descriptions of it's sound signature that a Hagel is what i need before else, sadly that'll take longer

Audio is also slightly out of sync

It’s notable to suggest moving the speakers out from the wall when listening in a small room, but it ignores the fact that in a small room you don’t always have 5-6 feet to move away from the wall without them sitting in your lap. How will they sound when they’re 5 feet from the front wall but 3 feet away from your head? Not being smart but asking a legitimate question.

I like the purity of single ended triode amplifiers which put out too little power for Magnepans. But I also prefer the speed and purity of planar speakers with their consistent impedance at all audio frequencies and the freedom from box sound. I have owned 0.7's for more than a year and my solution is to use my 45 triode amplifier pair to drive 833-A radio station transmitter tubes by transformer from 45 to grids of the 833-A's. The 833-A uses about 1000 Volts. I get the best of both.

"Point source" localization is ARTIFICIAL. It unnecessarily adds the room acoustics to the original music. The solid/cohesive waves from maggies couple the original music to our ears as though we are holding a pair of high quality monitors at arm's length.

The Hegel H90 drove both Magnepans? Now I am confused. I had always heard that Maggies were power hungry beasts and yet that particular Hegel is on 60w into 8ohms???

Got the lrs's ordered. 5 month wait.

Good description about sound-stage verses imaging. It made me think 2 things, 1 is I've noticed upon some equipment upgrades that a better or truer, deeper & tighter(?) bass-response gives me a better sense of an orchestra's or band's hall size & 2, when i put in a true-mono m.c. cartridge, for up-to late 60's good mono recordings, (e.g. Decca, HMV, EMI & some gr8 unknown 2me labels) i get a much improved sense of a wide & deep... (compered to a stereo cart' playing Mono) ...& lifelike "Sound-stage" but no imagining & lack of imaging is, ive come to notice, what i care much less about. If all my 1000'ish L.P.s magically turnred into good qualith mono recordings like from those labels mentioned, i'd be a happier person as far as my L.P.s are concerned. Carts would be all-round better designes if they only had to deal with mono's purely horizontal modulations. Stereo is sometimes nothing but a gimmick & I've heard D.S.O.T.M. on t.o.t.r. late 70's Quadrphonic Q.S., S.Q. & CD-4 equipment & it's a gimmicky mess. The biggest thing you notice is that the bells go around the speakers ...whoopdi-doo, grrr8, while all else is the same with odd sounds coming from S.Q. & Q.S.'s mono rear channels CD-4 was discreet but still gimmick just 1 small step beyond stereo & for it's detriment. Mono was & is King, long live the King

Would a high quality class D amp possibly be a reasonable match for the smaller Magnepan speakers?

The most important thing to consider over technical achievements is the connection you get with the emotion. A speaker can sound better in some aspects compare to another one but do not deliver the emotion. Connection with the human brain. No way to evaluate this in a scientific way.

I have to blame the LS35?A for starting me down this obsession w/ audio. The real gateway drug. I just got a used pair of LRS with the intent of replacing crossover w/ outboard version from GR-Research. Huge Maggie fan Had the 2c back in the 80's and loved 'em. Gotta get one of my Odyssey Stratos monos repaired while I do the speaker mod. I accidentally shorted outputs on one of them. User error.....not fault of product. Modest wattage, but big current. Great amp for these speakers and relatively affordable.

Just did an A - B test of the LRS V .7 and its not even close. The .7 is a much bigger sound with more bass & power. My .7 image better than 99% of other speakers with a very well defined soundstage. It is real and I don’t know what kind of physics he’s talking about. Anyway, I-took the .7s home and they are outstanding.

of course you know that maggies require a high current amplifier which usually is ss. that usually means that the power increases significantly at 4 ohms over the 8 ohm rating. and it isn't necessary to go to high priced items like hegel. hopefully, you will provide a path for your customers to not overspend. with my MMGs, i use the venerable ADCOM 555II which has never faltered for me using ANY speakers in my realm. i too read all the mags back in the 70s and 80s. SR, HF, and my favorite AUDIO which is the one with the October Directory Issue, fondly called the Bible for us faithful readers. there were some very humorous listings of the fictional I. LIRPA products with outlandish specs. Trinity Sessions is a fantastic disc for soundstaging and deep bass as you hear it in large rooms like that (a church). wish you were here, is my all-time PF album was a revelation in rock-solid sounds that plumbed the depths in the lows and so hard-hitting in structural impact. my first listen left my jaw on the floor. imaging vs soundstaging...i will reserve my final opinion on that for the maggies. at the 2015 THE SHOW Newport, i heard a huge pair of Sound Labs ESLs playing a solo guitarist that i expected to extend from floor to the 6' top of the panel. instead, it gave us back a normal sized human and instrument. AMAZING. one item you didn't touch on was whether to place the tweeter on the maggies inside or out. i have always found that inside placement usually results in no diffraction from the baffle, thus better specificity. i have found that to be true and got started doing so since following the advice of Irving M. Fried, owner of IMF and Fried Products. try it. and pinpoint imaging came so very nicel from Quad 57s, provided that you listened from dead center with the tweeters aimed right at you. that may have been the best imaging and the most transparent presentation i have heard from a speaker. this was at Jona Miller Sound in the late 8s where i heard the incomparable Robers LS2/5a which i eventually ended up buying used a few months later from an individual. thank you for the great comparison of these maggies, i would very much like to have a pair of LRS but i suspect that may never happen. i have three sets of speakers here that i am not motivated to change any further. ...hifitommy

Stereo Review, High Fidelity, and Audio never regarded sensitivity as an indicator of quality. The speakers they most praised were low efficiency such as the AR3 and KLH6. They DID measure transient response, bass frequency response and HARMONIC DISTORTION. Ported designs do not do well on this test which is why reviewers no longer perform it. (apart from laziness and low budget.)

Why not just jump to a 1.7i? Big step up sound wise for not much more money

I am attracted to the LRS but seems every review spends way too much time on the amplifier and how it takes 2, 3, 4 tries to get it right. Not only getting it right but also expensive amps. I am getting the impression my Emotive rig would would sound bad. So far too finicky and I do not want a speaker that causes me to question and then buy a new amp.

The price delta between the LRS and 0.7 is too big. $650 vs $1,400 USD. Having owned the older MMG and larger 1.6/7, I would buy the 0.7 in a heartbeat if it was $1,000.

Just watched this and Jay looks like he hates this! LMAOROTF.

whos that dude that does not want to be there ?

Lol , I did the same ! 13:02

LRS is extremely finicky with placement and amplification AND without a doubt it needs a subwoofer.

Large deep diffusers wil solve your .7 problem

Just to be clear, there is no “0.7i” - .7 is the model number.

I like the channel but It's very uncomfortable to watch how the person in the middle is always bullying Jay and thinks he's funny.

2-B.O.S.S Woofers per LRS , a crossover, momoblock......Now give her a shout. WOW PRETTY DARN GOOD RIGHT !!!! Why you putting your $20k speakers away now ??? THINK OUSIDE THE BOX. ALSO) with this setup keep your LRS at a 90 angel from the floor....NOT LEANING BACK.

Magnepan speakers are a novelty at best. They draw so much power they destroy amplifiers, and the people that work there are not informed about the products enough to be answer questions about compatibility. Also, the sound is directional and don't film the room well. Buy SVS instead and save yourself the headache. These aren't "great," speakers by any measurement.

These guys are reviewing and commenting on high end audio equipment, yet the sound quality of their RU-vid audio is pathetic.

Errrrrrr. I hate when this video pops up. How many time can I thumbs down. Gees

this is hilarious and ridiculous. 2000+ dollars minimum for an amp for magnepans?! ha! what a joke these hifi snobs are! maybe that holds true for the dumb overpriced high end amps they're used to. when you have overpriced underpowered junk then a thousand bucks doesn't buy you much, sure. but in the modern chi-fi / budget hifi world of chinese manufacturing, and audio forums, extensive measurements and objective facts and reality, this is BOGUS! nothing wrong with class a/b, it has it's place, but we're in the age of class D, which offers SERIOUS affordable power that can easily drive magnepans to their max. there's many options, both DIY and finished products, that can easily do this job for 500 or less. just look at the higher powered amps on connexelectronic.com, such as: (class D, options from 200 to 700 w/ch into 4 ohms) connexelectronic.com/product/irs2092-stereo-amplifier/, their excellent class t (tripath) ta3020 based amp which I own and love (~200w/ch into 4ohms) connexelectronic.com/product/ta3020-audio-amplifier-v3d/, or for 2-4x the power the ta0105 based amp connexelectronic.com/product/ta3020-audio-amplifier-v3d/ or their incredible class a/b amp that can do 200w/ch into 4ohms at .001% THD: connexelectronic.com/product/aem6000-audio-amplifier-with-heatsink/ The above class D and T options are bridgeable so you can easily double or triple your output power by using one amp per speaker, and then you've got a dual monoblock setup if you're into that. The class D and T amps perform 100% equally well with an SMPS, so you can get a 2000w SMPS for 200, or a 3000 or 4000w smps for 300. This is if you want to do a LITTLE bit of DIY work, so easy anyone could do it, take you part of a day tops and that's if you take your sweet time. They also sell a fully complete package of many of their amps, including the previously mentioned class d with a power supply enabling it to do 600w, for $270 dollars!!!!!! connexelectronic.com/product/irs2600smps/ just put it in a case and you're done! These are audiophile quality amps if you're not too stuck up to actually be open minded and try them out, and have some understanding and appreciation and BELIEF in OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENTS! The products I listed above are literally their most expensive options period! The ta3020 package is 265 dollars for 400w/ch into 4 ohms, or if you bridge it and use one per speaker it can do 1340w! (that's 400w/ch single ended at .1% thd, it's ~200w/ch @ .02% or less [.005-.01 from about 1w to 100-150w]! I've owned one of their ta3020 amps for like 7 years, i leave it on 99% of the time all the time, and it's still going strong. all of the qualities they seek for driving the magnepans, the "grip" on the bass, this amp has in spades. these amps have an extremely high damping factor and tons of capacitance, they will grip any woofer or other type of speaker and literally murder it with bass, never letting go. the bass hits HARD and FAST AF, with tons of detail and texture. they're not warm and super natural/organic sounding, they're very neutral and analytical aka accurate, for good or bad depending on the recording. if a synth sound has a sharp edge to it, it's there and the immediacy and intensity is astounding. but softer recordings sound smooth and round as intended, and even edgier ones have very little inherent harshness in the treble. they can be a bit clinical (the ta3020, I honestly don't know if the ta0105 or class D options are the same or better or what), but hey if you prefer smoothness and warmth over pure analytical detail and accuracy, then get the class a/b amp that still has plenty of power, about equal to my ta3020. these amps can also be configured to be balanced with an 18 dollar module if you need that. The reason i have specific thd and power numbers is because these amps are well documented, you can look at a pdf that goes into great detail about the amps components and design. Bet you can't find this much info on these overpriced amps! Every critical component choice and value is explained and justified, like what mosfets and why, what caps, resistors, and inductors (output filters). No secrets, you could build it yourself with the info. That's how you know it's a good proper design and implementation of a given chipset/technology. There was a very similar ta3020 based amp from an overpriced hifi brand several years back that cost a couple grand, you can have it for 3 to 4 hundred bucks, maybe 500 tops all-in with a really high quality case and stuff! I don't even have a volume control on my amp because i control volume digitally with my DAC (I've also used a preamp but normally don't, but i plan on getting a THX headphone amp which doubles as a preamp, and it's endgame level good), and this amp is super quiet! I have 97db+ efficient speakers so if the hiss is this low for me, it'd work for anyone even when it's cranked, and i have mine set up for relatively high sensitivity and run a high supply voltage. You have to put your ear to the speakers to hear the faint hiss, and that's with horn mids! the point is, saying you need to spend 2 or 3 grand minimum for an amp just because you have a difficult to drive speaker is utterly ridiculous. there's many other great options besides the ones above. Topping, SMSL, Dayton, Crown, they all have audiophile grade amps that have the true 4ohm power ratings and high damping factor needed to drive these speakers to their full potential. A good class D/T implementation that has had the output filter designed correctly (which connex amps do!) will not sound harsh in the high end, it will roll off naturally where it should at the end of the audio bandwidth, with immeasurable distortion or aliasing or intermodulation distortion, etc. We're talking .02% on the high end at full power, and realistically much lower than that. These are amps so detailed that they will completely show you every change you make in the front end, from high end dacs and preamps or whatever. I use a Khadas Tone Board, and i've tried Modi 2 and an HRT music streamer ii, and the differences are clear [btw the khadas is by far the best, look it up... it's a 100 dollar dac, no case just the board, and it measures and sounds as good as any 1000+ dollar dac out there almost]. My amp is currently gripping the ever loving heck out of some JBL 2225H's and throwing them around with extreme precision like they're nothing, although granted they could handle more than 100-200w (they're 8 ohms).

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Big boy in the middle could loose a few pounds

just curious, all those details that you guys mentioned you never heard from the music on your playlist before. are you saying you never heard them on your infinite more expensive systems?