From the information I have picked up over time, I have heard that a little bit of humidity can be good for some types of seeds (e.g. corn), and that often seeds will need to breathe so vacuum sealing is not always the best way, but on the other hand I have bought vacuum-sealed seeds and had them store just fine, so I'm not sure what to think.
That is what I had though as well, and I don't really have the answers. I think it might depend on the temperature they are being stored at. It makes sense to me that the warmer the seeds are, the more of the very slow biological processes inside the seeds will take place, needing that oxygen and perhaps even moisture. I also don't really know what to think, but it will likely be better than keeping them in an old ziplock bag at room temperature in our house. The information I got about oxygen absorbers came from a recent comment on my other video, and I found this article phys.org/news/2014-07-seeds-vital-longer-oxygen.html I didn't make it clear in the video that I have been vacuum sealing the seeds that I put in the freezer, to protect them from freezer burn and other damage in there. And when I take the seed out, I plan to wait until they warm up before opening the pack, to prevent any moisture or condensation forming in the pack.
I've vaccume sealed beans and peas to store in a moist basement and the peas sprouted for three years so far, but the bean seeds did not. I got the beans and peas from the grocery store
@@jodi9295 I sprouted many of them beforehand, I just sealed up about two thirds of them. But it's true about the oven drying. I've never heard of the anti sprouting spray though! I sprout all of my legumes before I eat them to make them easier on my system and I haven't had an issue sprouting any so far. I do know that some produce is irradiated, though I don't know what kinds
Hello RED Gardens! We are new subscribers! We are a farm family of 5 girls plus dad from Kansas! Our fourteen year old girl is the voice behind our channel! We have the same question as we lost our Papa recently and inherited his seed collection! This was helpful and inspirational! Thank you so much for sharing! Blessings to you!
Hey there! thanks for subscribing, and glad this video helped you figure out what to do with that seed collection. Looks like you are in the middle of lambing season over there, busy times!
Quick tip if you freeze your seeds I recommend taking them out a day or two before you plan to plant them because the rapid humidity rushing into the container you store them in can kill them instantly.
This is so interesting. I save some of my own seed, but to be totally honest, my lust for new varieties means that I always want to trial more than I can realistically maintain good seed for. Even in some hypothetical future where many families have at least one person who is a food grower, it seems like it would still be necessary for local or regional seed production to be a specialty task that someone does professionally. Just pondering!
I think you are right about he likely need for local and regional seed producers. For things like peas and beans, it makes so much sense to save your own, but for things like kale and the other brassicas, getting good quality seed is a whole other challenge.
I have been folowing your channel for some time now, and i love to see the progress you have made! From gathering all the seeds and varietys, and coming to realizing that its too much, and reducing the number of sowing variety, and of course sharing it all with us, with so much quality, the science aproach, all the data and your learnings.. its sure a great joy to follow this channel
I disagree with you regarding the pea seeds that did not germinate, it was not a los. In the bigger picture every one that watches this will now have learned that this is a real threat to their seeds and that they should follow your advice as you and us all have first hand experience now. Thanks Red. Respect from Africa 🇿🇦
Thank you so much for the videos and content you produce! For me they serve as a constant reminder that there is always more to analyze and there are always methods to try outside of what I would normally consider. Time after time I revisit your five year update video and take the definition of praxis then apply it to a a multitude of things beyond growing food.
I dump all my really old seeds, both flower and veg, into a container and then broadcast those on a (sacrifice) plot to see what happens. It's surprising what germinates and what does not. I save the seeds of the ones that do.
Having found myself with 200 packets of Hispi that were technically out of date so unusable for a promotion, I used most of them as microgreens. Now we don't like microgreens but the chickens loved them. The germination rate 5 years past the 'sow by' finally became too low to be worth using. Always worth running a test if you're unsure. Great video, as usual.
Wow, nice testing! I usually just test as I grow. If a set fails, then I try more until I run out of that type of seed. Since I collect seeds and save seeds, I always have much more than I can grow, as well as volunteers in the garden. I do keep an eye in the supermarket and seed companies for varieties that seem interesting and might do well in my climate. Looks like happy growing for the year!
Thanks. I have done a lot of that kind of 'try it and sow again if necessary' method in the past. But these days I think that with so many gardens to manage and keep track of, it was less work to just test the seeds first, rather than have to sow again, or to sow extra and have to thin more.
@@REDGardens Very true. My garden is very small, so I do not have much to sow and keeping a bunch of nursery plants is not a big deal for me. I think what you do and how much you grow is remarkable.
I really needed to hear this. It's tough to hear but the majority of my seeds are getting up to 4 years old so I will definitely have to do a bit of spring cleaning in the seed box soon and order a whole batch of new ones. I've been having very bad germination problems and seedling vigor the last two years and I've been wondering why. Seeing this video and recognizing all the signs of old seeds was what I needed to realize that was my problem too!
I had quite similar realisation a few years ago, thinking that I probably shouldn't sow the seed because it was a bit old, but sowing anyway, and by the time I noticed the poor germination, I have somehow forgot that the seed was a bit old!
Really good video all your failures and mistakes were great learning lessons for me and other viewers . Thanks for doing all the work and now I have a plan for seed saving . Thought you could only save seeds for a year or two this video and your other videos are so well done .
I think it comes down to how they were collected, treated if/when required and stored. There are a few videos on youtube of people germinating with great success 30yr old seeds from different plants. I think there are only really a few plant and tree seeds that truly have a short viability window.
well done! For me this year, I am sowing an extra few of the seeds I believe to be at their end of viability. I think that will ensure the right amount of those varieties I want for the season.
That is a good strategy, which I have used quite a lot. After doing the germination testing, I have noticed that the vigour or strength of the seedling is all quite a bit lower with the older seeds, and which I thin translates into a slower crop, and possibly more chance of damage. It might be a small thing overall, but I am starting to get a bit more selective with the seeds I sow.
With the rationale for your seed purchases, it might be wise to buy a vacuum-sealer. If fresh seed is vacuum-sealed and frozen, they will last a very, very long time including seed that doesn't normally last very long. I've tested it over many years.
i always chuck my old seeds in a mish mash bed as some will germinate, even if germ testing didn't get them to. Last year I sowed 100 varieties of tomato, loads of them really old from seed swaps over a decade ago and was amazed what came up. Just today my first tomato sowing early seeds are up, one variety is one from a very old swap so it does sometimes work.
@@REDGardens you'd be surprised. I have tomato seed that were donated by 'seeds by size' to the heritage seed library that they let me use for schools, and they are still germinating now. They must be 20 years old.
I would do germination tests and any that do at least 50 to 75 % sprouting but you are no longer interested in using take to a seed swap or offer as free seeds to any local gardening groups. Here in the United States many libraries have seed sharing available and they always welcome seeds. In the worry that they didn't do well for you or you didn't quite care for well they might do better for someone else or they might have different tastes or requirements. I have probably about 100 different seed types(probably more I might need an intervention . There might be other gardeners who would love what you have. I share often and have been thinking about renting out a booth at our towns farm market and advertising a seed swap or share. One man's trash is another's treasures.
That sounds great. Unfortunately here in Ireland we haven't developed anything like that. Very few growers around, but I do pass around some of my saved seeds, from varieties that I know work well, to the ones that I know in my community.
@@REDGardens aw. I hate when my seeds go to waste but I too have about 4 one gallon glass jars with seeds that are too old. So far in the past year I've only gotten my older tomato seeds sprout here and there. I've found onions really go downhill on germination rates after the 3rd year. I'm sorting out my collection this month to pass the varieties I have way too much of to the library. They have little envelopes and will even label and portion my buld seeds out for the children and adults who want to try new varieties. In my case I should say old heirloom varieties. Lol. Oh I forgot. Many beans seeds you've saved yourself and don't have any fungal coating on can just be turned into soup. I will often save enough for a few years but after I get a new crop in with fresh saved seed the rest go in the soup bean pot.
I've been doing some germination testing, as well, though not to the extent you've been at it! Had some very old dried chili peppers that I grew several years back, and some self saved coriander seed in the spice cabinet. Both from around 2015 or so. Sowed 10 of each, which was half the coriander seed. Three peppers and one cilantro germinated. The cilantro took 36 days to germinate. Going to try to keep them going until I can plant them out in April-May. I think I need more propagation space...
Interesting that you got any to germinate. I have read that the viability issue is more one where each year that passes more of the seeds won't be able to germinate, and the rest will all be a bit weaker. I had hoped that even a few of the pea seeds would make it, but nothing.
Sir, you're a gem for the growing community and you inspire me to do better. BTW, about that brexit issue. Can't you just have the company mail the seeds to a friend in EU and then have this friend repackage and send them to you in personal mail? What's the problem? I'm sure you have plenty of supporters there that would jump at the chance to help you out.
Thank you so much! The issue is that the seed companies in the UK can no longer supply to anyone in the EU, not just Ireland, as importing seeds into the EU is heavily regulated. I have had an order posted to someone in the UK and then a neighbour brought them back when they were over for a visit. Getting a friend/supporter to just post them from the UK is also possible, but delivery from the UK seems to take ages these days, and not everything shows up (still waiting for something I bought in December!!). I have heard that the Irish customs officials are opening quite a bit of stuff and sending a lot back. If I am desperate there are always options, but to be honest, this whole Brexit thing is pissing me off, and I'd prefer to have as little to do with the UK as I can. So my main focus has shifted to finding other suppliers and varieties that are so much easier to get from Germany and elsewhere.
I'm surprised you didn't eat the peas after the failed germination test! I would have made split pea soup with all those peas, but it's pretty obvious you're not hurting for food, I understand why you wouldn't feel the need to be food-frugal.
Yeah, I figure if they were too old to sprout, they were probably past their prime for eating too. If I was hungry, or stressed for food, they would have been eaten!
Mildew is an issue, but the main problem is not enough warmth in the growing season to actually get to the point of growing ripe squash, and I haven't been able to get anything reasonable off of a butternut squash plant outside. But hope one of the collection will be better.
@@REDGardens Just wishing to throw my ten cents worth into the mix,I have had some success growing Uchi Kuri and saving the seed,growing in quite a harsh coastal Irish environment.This is the second year of saving seed,and this variety will grow to finish,harvesting around Halloween.Last year they were very slow to take off,and I had almost given up,but once it warmed up and the roots spread out they covered the area with no bare soil visible for the leaves.I did put up a windbreak on 2 sides,3rd side being a tunnel,which I believe was essential,would you like some seed? We are still eating our way through them,the flesh is very dense and tasty,I don't think I have storage worked out yet,they seem to start moulding at either end,it's a question of can we eat them fast enough,which is working out at the moment, probably half the crop are still perfect 3 1/2 months in storage 👍.
@@hedfuka8608 Thanks for sharing your experience, and for the offer of seed (I already bought a packet, so I am good for this season). I have tried Uchi Kuri in the past but wasn't as impressed, but am planning to try it again.
I can't find it now, but I once saw a video by a "homesteader" who used a small manual oil press to turn her excess seeds into cooking oil. She was making all kinds of seed oil I had never heard of, it was pretty cool.
Another great video, thanks for breaking that down so clearly for us. I saw a video with a similar topic from Charles Dowding recently and after handling some seed he actually threw them away rather than return them to the sealed jar he got them from. He claimed even just the small amount of moisture from his hand was enough to potentially spoil them and other seeds they came in contact with. This seemed a bit extreme to me but maybe there's some truth to that. Now I'm curious about the storage method that international seed vaults use.
Yes, saw that Charles Dowding video also. I believe that the reason for throwing the seeds away was that he had just handled/ touched moist soil, so his hands had more moisture on them than regular. But that really was interesting to see and made me think more about how much moisture I expose my seeds to when I plant them and restore again.
I have heard the from a bunch of people. I generally won't put seeds back in the pack if my hands are dirty or wet, and I try not to touch more seeds than I am currently planting, but I am not so careful with the seeds I regularly use.
@@MountDeMonte I think the process off taking the seeds to the garden, and opening them up in that moist environment, and perhaps even leaving the packets to warm up in the sun, and then putting them back into storage, can be the main way that seeds degrade.
Yes I had an extra space so I sowed some French breakfast radishes they did very well not expected that the every seed would germinate I through in the whole package that was a mistake I would had enough for at least 2-3 round if I hadn’t thanks for the great information I was skeptical on a few seed packets because of delayed germination now seeing your Vid I can confirm that it was more than likely older seeds or poor seeds due to the germination that was between the 2 packets. Happy Growing❤️Keep up the great content. I was wondering is there a list of your poor germinators also if you reach out to schools I’m sure they’d love to have old seeds for the kids to experiment with.
Thanks. Glad my video was helpful. I don't have a list of poor germinations. With the schools around here it seems that lack of interest and knowledge (and to be fair lack of time and capacity) among the teachers is the real limit to any exploration with growing. I figure if I gave them seeds they would just end up sitting there. But if I knew that a teacher was actually interested, then they could get all the seeds they want from me. Still waiting for that to happen.
I really like your channel it is very informational. I am in the USA. I live in New Mexico, it is arid a little desert and I only have 148 days of growing season. What are some of the seed companies that you use. Thanks in advance.
That is quite a different climate to Ireland! I get seeds from lots of places, including Moles seeds in the UK, Bingenheimer in Germany, Irish Seed Savers here in Ireland, and a bunch more.
Sort of, but nothing I would say is consistent, and not something I really kept track of. I was generally pleased with the seeds that I am getting from my main new supplier in Germany company, but all those seeds are fairly new. I was disappointed with the seed I got from a small company here in Ireland that I want to support (I know the guy) who repackages seed from larger suppliers and sells them, mainly because he only stocks varieties that he finds work well in this climate. A few of the packs that I recently bought were quite poor germination.
I would put all seeds you are throwing out in a small patch for a month or two months then pull everything and add it to the compost or give it to someone’s chickens/ducks
Brexit did indeed put some pebbles in the machinery for us outside of the UK. I really hope they can get the trade agreement soon, to be ready at least for next year. I now got the spark to go test some of my old seed bags, will be interesting to see what works or not 🌻. Thanks! 🦋
I hope things settle down with the whole Brexit, but I think the seed thing is way down the list, if it is even going to be part of any trade deal. There are strict regulations about bringing seed into the EU, and I don't think there is an appetite to change that simply so a few of us in Ireland can get some seeds from the UK.
@@REDGardens I just hope that the UK seed companies want their EU customer base back🌻 and might have some influence. (This year if I search for something in particular, and can't find it where I live, I look to Germany or the Netherlands). Happy growing!
Very logical. A method of genetic sorting, and weeding out (no pun inteded?) the weaker genetics to keep the larger, faster and better ones. I have also heard (and somewhat seen) how saving the best from your own plots evolve pretty quick for your specific area/water/conditions - sometimes in only a couple of seasons.
Yes, I figured that is way tis happening. I buy from some of the smaller suppliers here in Ireland when I only want a small amount of seeds, and to reduce costs when buying a diversity of varieties, as well as to support them and essential enterprises in our communities. But I figure in some cases it means I am getting seed that is older, handled more, and exposed to more air/moisture in the repackaging.
You could distribute some of the extra seeds you are not going to use (like the “long storage ones”) amongst your patreon supporters. A raffle maybe? Even the discarded ones might be interesting for people in warmer climates; they might still grow there.
You can always sprout the ones you dont really want and then let the chickens eat then when they are microgreen size. Or you can plant them in trays and sell as microgreens.
Soaking seeds with seaweed liquid feed should increase their germination rate. Mycorrhizal fungi also increases germination but I’m fairly sure Klasmann has that included in its seeding compost already. Advancing Eco Agriculture has some really good podcasts on the science behind seed germination, some seeds need very specific conditions to germinate & they go into that in real detail.
You are right about vacuum sealing. You can extend the life of the seeds by a quite a few years by buying a really good quality vacuum sealer then refrigerating but not freezing. Be careful with the packaging if you do vacuum seal, make sure it's food grade packaging. Prioritize beans as the plant waste is a really good source of Nitrogen for composting due to Beans taking Nitrogen from the air, not the soil.
@@REDGardens Apparently what moisture is left in the seed (the meat of the seed so to speak) can crystalize and permanently damage the seeds. Temperatures as low as 5c is effective enough.
Thank you for another interesting video. I enjoyed the tomato trail that you spoke about. I have thought about saving most of my own seeds this year, however, in 2019/20 I found some seeds hard to get so I feel I'm between a rock and a hard place as to what to do. The price of some is really ridiculous, especially when it is an item that gives loads of seeds, such as a pumpkin and other squash. That makes me wonder then where they are coming from (UK or not), and if they are fresh at all. The growing period for some gardeners without a lot of grow space, such as tunnels and greenhouses, is quite short. And I wonder if when looking at costs exactly how viable growing is. Things like Jerusalem artichokes for example are hideously expensive, however, they are vigorous growers.
@@REDGardens Yes, it is sad that it doesn't surprise me. So, that brings us to something else which is plant disease from other countries. I wonder what can be carried that way. I bought a lot of fruit trees this past 12 months and I specifically chose the ones that were grown in the UK, but I was shocked I had a choice. I do wonder, if when we may be dealing with China and other similar places, exactly how careful we need to be. Occasionally I have bought seeds on Amazon or Ebay, and when I receive them they are obviously from China. I send them straight back. However, these large seed companies may be a worry.
I had a feeling that desiccants were potentially too powerful and would "overdry" seeds. I've also done no research or thorough experimentation. Can you expand?
I'd rather not pass poor seed on to anyone. If someone is starting growing, I would want them to have only the best seeds from varieties that will work well for them.
Why not use your old seed as green manure? Mix them all together and sprinkle them into a patch of ground you're not going to use for a while, and then dig them in when it's time to plant a crop there. You might get some worthwhile volunteer plants coming through when you least expect them to.
For long term storage freezing seeds is obvious but I remember hearing that meat companies are "flash freezing" they're meat since freezing meat really fast increases the nucleation rate (I think that's correct) and does way less damage to the cells of the meat resulting in better quality meat once thawed. I know they do the same for frozen vegetables you might find in a grocery store. Anyways point being I wonder if "flash freezing" will affect germination rate. And if so would it also increase the amount of time you can store it for. I've looked it up to no avail BUT what about that seed bank in the artic or wherever? How do they keep they're seeds to last so long? Perhaps "flash freezing" or perhaps the sub zero Temps. Idk. I do know that to obtain "flash freezing" you just need to get them really cold really fast. Then you can store them anywhere below freezing. Maybe something to test. Would possibly provide a last resort for certain varieties you definitely don't wanna lose. Or perhaps your own varieties you don't wanna lose.
That is interesting. With seeds being so small and light, I think they will freeze pretty fast anyway. With the meat and vegetables, which tend to be quite a bit heavier, I think it might be the presence of the moisture that is the issue, that the crystal structure of the ice is smaller and less likely to damage the cells if it is flash frozen. Or something like that. So I am not sure if there would be the same benefit with the dry seeds, but there might be another advantage or issue with it.
Hi red gardes from Cyprus. When you plant tomatoes to each other and save seed. I think they will cross pollinate. How do you prevent this when you olant 54 tomatoes to near each other?
Hi there! From what I have read, most tomato varieties don't cross pollinate, but some with the bigger flowers do. But cross pollination would also take insects at the flowers and I haven't noticed many bees in the polytunnel at the flowers. So, there could be some cross pollination, but it is apparently unlikely in most cases, and less likely in my context.
Did you do anything to make sure the seeds didnt dry to below 3% humidity? Apparently they will die if they drop below 3%.. and beans at like 5%. Ive heard to do equal weights seeds and silica in a drying container and only leave the silica with them for 5-7 days? I will look into the physics website about the oxygen absorbers too thanks
That is interesting. I had not heard that before. I tend to just leave them in the package for a few days then remove the silica, so hopefully that is fine.
Do you think it’s possible your seeds from your plants grown are better acclimated to soil and environment therefore better germination as well compared to original seed packets? This is similar when doing garlic, pepper, and tomato for successful growing.
I think it is possible, but I think it takes many years of seeds saving for that kind of acclimatisation to become significant and noticeable. I could probably speed that up by being very careful about how I select the plants to save seed from. But there would be a big benefit in terms of germination by only keeping the strongest seeds from the first/biggest flowers/plants, and things like that. I don't think this is acclimatisation, just knowing when an individual plant produces some seeds that are stronger than others.
Keep all of the packets in plastic bags all stuffed in a tight jar in the freezer and they will last FOREVER. I planted seeds from 1940 and ALL sprouted fine!
Is there a difference between Demeter, organic and conventinal seeds? And does a variety from a non Demeter or organic ("Bio") source make your crop not beeing able to become organic? I mean if you only use compost and manure from Organic farming it should be fine? Doesnt it?
Those labels are just designating the farming standard or certification of the seed production, with Demeter being a 'higher' standard than "Organic". I think that some/most Organic certifying agencies require that you need to use Organic seeds if you want the crop to be certified Organic. I am not concerned about 'certification', so that doesn't matter to me. I use organic methods (though some slightly on the edge of what is in the rules) and usually try to buy from Organic/Demeter supplies, to support that type of farming, but I have no problem using non-organic seeds as the impact on my soil would be negligible.
I have enormous difficulties in disposing of seeds, even if I deep down don’t plan to grow them or if they are old. I’m planning to save more of my seeds (peas, beans, broadbeans mainly) and after drying to put them in the chest freezer. Really hope that I can have that backup of viable seeds with this method
I share that idea, especially with the varieties that I don't regularly grow, which is a bit of a paradox. I don't mind throwing out not great seed when I buy new seed for the same variety, but the packages of varieties that I am not interested in growing I don't want to get rid of, because I am not going to buy any more, and who knows what will happen in the future! I do find that strange in myself.
It would be interesting in a few years to compare the vigor of old saved beans vs new saved beans. It could be the old package beans were grown with pesticides and fungicides and yours weren't. In the US, seeds other than organically certified are REQUIRED to be treated to kill bacteria and fungi just in case of pathogens. Sir Howard, of compost fame, was quite taken by seed strains failing over time as the growers started using "chemical manures".
I would say he mostly compared saved seed with older packaged seed. (except with the peas 1yr old saved vs 10 yr old saved) The working theory was that age and storage conditions determined seedling vigor. The question is whether healthy soil has a major impact on seed vigor. There are indications that it does, probably a combination of better micro-nutrients and beneficial micro-organisms, if true. You wouldn't happen to know if countries outside the US require sterilization of standard seed? Most of the testing to see if the sterilization damaged germination would have been fresh conventionally grown seed in sterile Petri dishes. Seedling vigor may never have been tested.
@@rochrich1223 I suspect that healthy soil does have a significant impact on the vigour of the seeds, but have no way of really knowing. It would be interesting to set up an experiment, growing the same plants for seed in a few of the gardens that I know are quite productive, as well as in marginal land that isn't very healthy or fertile. Then test the seeds the first year and after storage for a few years. I could also add another factor, with storing some of each in good conditions, and others in mediocre conditions. I might be able to get a sense of how good soil may lead to longer viability. Something else to possibly try to fit in to the season. Wish I had done this 5 years ago!
@@REDGardens most plants fail toself seed after a kouple generations but i kav built up a few plants that just grow and self seed every year thier (also a side story theres this self seedin wild or naturlized ground cherry at my old school woods that no one knows who planted em or if theyre wild)
That is an option, but not a lot of demand around here. At the moment, seed is usually not the missing factor that is preventing people from growing their own food, and starting with poor quality seed, or varieties that don't work so well, isn't a good place to start.
You may like this link to a DIY germination chamber ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LitOnag3qwo.html. Old seeds will pop reliably in a germination chamber.
In one of the other germination videos Pat talks about kale etc taking only a day to germinate and germinating 16 year old seed, if memory serves. I think you can use an old fridge? The main issue seems to be electrical safety and consistency of water supply and heat supply. If you gave it a go, I'd try for one of those beer fridges at the tip, they have clear doors 💖❤️💕
