Are You Using Enough Terrain? 

i accidentally overcomitted to how detailed my Kill Team starter box terrain was going to be and spent four weeks painting pillars and features by hand and going for an acid-rain stained, grimy stonework and god damned if im not using every single fucking piece. This terrain is now my homes fine china and my children will eat off of it at their damn weddings

Good terrain placement helps make the narrative and gives my imagination more room to roam. I rate my games on how much I enjoy the experience, not so much on winning, so a good battlemat and proper terrain go a long way towards enhancing the fun. This was another great video man. Are you in my head Uncle Atom? Scary! :)

"Some guys run with like 30 skeletons, thats a lot" *laughs in Skaven*

I play 40k when I can, and my local games workshop has a city table with the gw city terrain, and it always bothers me when people put the buildings in the road. What I have found works well to break up sight lines while keeping it thematic is putting barricades and tank traps in the streets and cramming all the buildings into the non-road bits. I really like your videos, it feels like there are a lot of "angry" youtubers when it comes to war games and RPGs and its nice to see someone who is pretty objective when it comes to those topics. Keep it up!

It also depends on what kind of terrain you have. If you can place your models on or in the terrain instead of just around it, you can get away with a lot more terrain. But things like rocks or solid house models often end up eating away the usable tablespace.

I'm a recent convert to your channel and must say I find your insightful look into the hobby refreshingly inspirational and thought provoking. Yours is a stand out channel sir keep up the great content.

I find this very interesting in the light of the fresh 40k FAQ, that gives the player going second the option to put his whole army in cover. A lot of reactions I read online for this new rule are along the lines of 'this is super strong', 'now I can finally have cover in the first turn and not be shot off the board! amazing!'. But then I think of my games, and I generally deploy everything (except maybe some very large vehicles) in some kind of cover on the first turn anyways...? Some things are even completely out of LOS. We generally make sure both players have something LOS blocking and quite a bit of smaller terrain pieces in their deployment zones. So there seems to be a huge difference in the amount of terrain players use in 40k, but it's not obvious what position they come from when they discuss the game balance and such.

I got into Wargaming 2 years ago with AoS and I have bought a lot more terrain than I ever thought I would. Frostgrave influenced my Terrain buying frenzy but games are simply much more fun on a packed table. I love Kill Team because of the terrain sets too!

Excellent commentary on an often overlooked aspect of gaming with miniatures... especially in terms of the scope/level of the rules and their mechanics. Well done.

I want to know where I can get the "Thats how I roll, unfortunately" shirt

I worked on the Kings of War rules committee for two years. The rules are designed to work with 10ish pieces of terrain of various sizes on a 4'x6' table.

Great video, once again an absolute help to a newcomer such as myself. I love the shirt!

I'd forgotten how fun it was to roll and play with terrain before. The all importance of hills and having stuff in the way... thx for that really fun reminder. I could almost tell if i was going to win or not on what terrain i rolled :)

I think this discussion highlights one of the key differences between historical and fantasy wargaming. Most of Uncle Atom's talk was about the right amount of terrain to make a good game, while for historical wargaming the issue would be realism.

I just gor in the gothic ruins set from gamemat. I love it and it looks great with my home made terrain

Excellent video... one more thing I'd add is that depending on the game (Kill Team vs Infinity vs Malifaux vs AOS, etc) if you find that your faction or your army is either doing really well, or vice versa, really poorly... consider looking at the terrain and your opponent's style of army and see if that is part of the problem... Most recently, with Kill Team, this has been something I'm interested in discussing because the 'standard' KT boards have very little actual full LOS blocking and fairly sparse terrain as they come in the boxes (see the most recent Trench set... it has 3 trenches and no other terrain... nothing tall enough to block LOS to anything taller than the trench)... and I've heard posts where one person 'can't win with their Genestealers or Close Combat Army' and another person 'can't win with their Tau or shooting army'... and my suspicion is that the Genestealer player is probably playing on too little terrain.. while the Tau player is probably playing with too much terrain.... (of course, too much and too little are relative to the players and the mission)... but it is a big variable in gaming that is often not discussed.. unlike army lists or points values or mission objectives.... so something to think about and consider tweaking if you are having too much or too little luck in your games =p

Cool video. I'm a big fan, Uncle Atom!

At the risk of tooting my own horn. Kill team was my first terrain build and paint. And it came out pretty darn good! Makes the game play a lot more emersive.

I'm a Guard player in 40k, and I cant wait to get the 5 man Scion squads, I've now realised the danger of large squads fighting against Stygies 8 Xenarites (Traitor Admech).

Personally I figure out scenario first and then set the table to match. That way the terrain suits the mission being played, and the various cover and LOS blocking pieces make sense for the way the armies are expected to move. Nothing worse than setting up a table and then rolling mission only to find that your deployment zone has no cover.

A clarification on Uncle Atom’s statement about Kings of War - add the word ‘scatter’ to the word ‘terrain’ and he’s correct. You still need to have a lot of terrain that units can move through, such as woods, hills and swamps etc. If you play Kings of War on an open field with a couple of things in the corners like WFB, it will favour certain armies in the meta.

Cool video! You have more pics of the buildings that show up when you talk about sniper alleys? They’re quite nice!

What’s a good age to get your children playing 40K? I have not played for 20 years but thinking of playing with my kids when they are old enough. Just not sure exactly what age is appropriate.

Was just looking for 3D printable terrain on Printable Scenery when this went up!

I saw this come up and thought to myself, "am I using TOO MUCH terrain?" I'm a self confessed terrainophile..

The last "big" game I played had three 4x4 foot and one 4x6 foot interconnected game boards. A harbor, open farmland, scarred and haunted wood, and Sleepy Hollow.

My friends and I are working on a random terrain generator. That always creates really interesting games.

Sometimes when there is so much terrain it's like there's nothing left to the magination it's almost like playing a video game without a controller. I love the creative aspect more then anything.

Yo uncle Atom!! Can you do a video on your favorite terrain and scenery builders on youtube? I want to discover more builders.

That was one quick pachow, need to hold back n ease into those

I noticed you said "Back when I used to play 'Flames of War'". I have recently been thinking about Flames of War, being a big fan of tanks. Is there a reason I shouldn't? Big fan of the channel by the way. I've been painting for the past 2 weeks after being inspired by several of your vids!

Atom is to tabletop wargaming what Matt Colville is to D&D, and you can quote me on that.

Always sound advice and dare I say wisdom? I'm going a little off topic, but having not played anything since Adeptus Titanicus (1988-1992) I was thinking about getting Kill Team (if it is ever in stock again in the UK). I really like the terrain and the idea of just having small groups of different factions to paint (and the set looks like good value). Looking at the Kill Team faction boxes, do I need the cards/tactics included in them or am I OK to just buy the (cheaper) miniatures on their own? Any advice very much appreciated.

I've got a kitbashing question for 40k. Are Space marine terminators compatible with normal SM heads? I'm pretty new to the hobby and wanted to use some forgeworld heads on some terminators for my army.

You can't go wrong whit lots of terrain and strong points like sniper lanes, high ground, bottle necks. We usualy even use some kind of center piece that separetes battle field into two fields. That way you most divide you're army or get flanked. Many times you see people using these 3 terrain piece shooting gallery battlefield. When other plays whit Tyranids and other whit Space Marines you know who's gonna win.

My issue is, I'd like to paint my turrain but I only have a tiny box to throw em all into so the chance of ruining the paint job is high. Any idea on a good way to store them?

Getting an appropriate amount of terain on the table as to not tip the balance of the game stresses me out, and I really don't like it when games don't give some guidelines to tell you how much you should use. Games like Infinity can break down if you set the board up wrong, and I have 'fond' memories of playing 40k as orks against tau tau or space marine players at the local shop and the accepted board was basically 2 pieces of terrain or fewer. It always felt like the game was stacked purely because there were no options to avoid long range fire and to request more terrain on my part was seen as trying to tip the scales towards my strategy (even though the game was already tipped way too far towards them IMO).

As a player who runs his own table, ide appreciate some tips on how to build a good gaming board.

its about the correct amount of terrain in context. For instance putting two large line of site blocking pieces of terrain at the very center of a 6x4 or 8x4 board when playing 40k can often make the game more tactical and less just about dice rolls than an entire board having thematic terrain that looks cool and gives +1 to cover but doesn't block Line of sight except for really small squads or really small dudes like grots/ Ratlings /hormagaunts/ termagants etc... we took my theory for a test drive amongst 10 games, all 20 people agreed with me, yeah i know thats barely above singular anecdotal experience but the point stands. Do u NEED huge los blockers? no. the big faq 2 rules change really helped. but games with los blockers are still *more fun*

9:31 "... very shooty..."

You don’t necessarily have to buy terrain. A little modeling clay and wood shaped like trees can be made with household items. Styrofoam which you can get from department stores can be made into terrain.

Love the ideas. Any chance to get I video about pinning models? I live infinity and arena Rex but the models always fall apart on me..

A friend of mine is horrible at terrain making terrain.. as in placing them on the map. Just last weekend he made map.. where we played narrative game.. but still insisted on Matched played rule (equal point armies etc) that was so fucking unbalanced i was on the verge of declining to play. 80% of the map was shotblockers and if that wasnt enough he placed all the objectives at the very far end of the map where he could just sit on them without ever being threatend while only having a few choke points which he could very easily block. Yea im not letting him build maps on his on anymore.

Fun, what is this word you say? It's all about dice, stats and competition. I kid. The immersion of the terrain should reflect scene trying to be played out. Shorter points, or whatever it is called in the system, even more narrative play would make better effective use of tiny table scene being played out.

Try getting terrain set up for two 15'x6' tables for massive Napoleonic battles 😱

One thing I would say is that you should never have a map without firing lanes if you're in a long ranged game. If you cut off all long ranged options then you are actively punishing players who paid additional cost in their army to bring long ranged options. Essentially: Snipers cost a premium, don't make them suck.

I concur.

. I find most games have rulez for difficult/hazardous terrain is often over looked.. ..not used.. and they usaly have units for it too..

My group needs some more terrain. Our tables are pretty bare and it's just a shoot out and little strategy. :(

Love you

Simple answer - you always need more terrain. As a terrain fanatic I am completely unbiased in this.

Hey would you possible stream, or record some games you play, so we can watching it? I would be interested in watching something like that, from the terrain distribution to the end. Would you possibly be interested in doing something like that?

Why are there any map rules in the rules? Or even a few preset maps to choose from if you wish?

This is the issue I have with some of the Killzones for killteam they are just sparse 😣

Terrain in KoW is not as problematic as it was in Warhammer FB. It is a hindrance, but still not as annoying and does not make maneouvres impossible.

Also... To be fair, put most of yur blocking terrain in the Centre of the table rather than sparsed out, why? Bcoz then you both have equal amounts of opportunity to score points and as you get closer, you'd be forced to use your melee sense over shooty!

In many historical wargames, terrain is integral to the game, as it should be. In ancients/medieval tournament rulesets, terrain and its placement are essentially the first part of the game and can be vital. That GW games have always treated terrain as an afterthought, or ignored it completely is a huge error. Tactics should be inherently tied to the terrain over which the battle is fought.

sounds good to me big game a lot smaill litt good thing to know

"The block its the block" block for the block god....... BLOCK FOR THE BLOCK GOD!!!!! I had to make that Joke sorry

Are you playing against IG, Tau, or Eldar? Then no. You don't have enough terrain. More terrain!

....I use soda cans and cereal boxes.

My brother plays Tau... he always wants a table with NO terrain... He tries to justify it as if Tau were defending a city they would of clear cut the forest so the enemy has to cross open ground... if it's a battlefield they'd choose open terrain and would not fight in a forest/jungle etc... I want tons of terrain for my harlequins to get into melee with his pathetic Tau...

In 40k you could play 150 guardsman and a command squad for only 800 or so points

Trying to get myself on the TT paint showcase club, join request sent over a week ago but not allowed in yet

Looking at my table that is like 120% terrain.

I have watched 5 seconds and I know the answer is NO. There is NEVER enough terrain. Ever.

My solution is a 50/50% or less on both sides of the table. Why? Because if its less to zero, then your army has little to no surviveability factors... And its an unfair advantage, if one side is bear naked (less cover) and the other side is floral as hell. Lol... Unless you wanna challenge yurself! Or, yur shooty army is in bearen terrain and yur melee armies are covered in terrain evens out this score... So yeah compensation is key!

Most players don't and should use at least two pieces per 2' square.