I can't believe we get this content for free. It's that good. Neil's wisdom and experience are so valuable to the cycling community. Thank you for sharing this with us.
OMG, went to see the bike whisper (Neil) last week, what a difference. I had suffered from right hip and lower back, knee issues during and after long rides and most recently shoulder and neck issues after seeing Neill those problems disappear over night. I have a wider que factor for hips, seat came down 15mm and forward similar distance for back and neck I’m now looking at taking spacers out of front stem. No other bike fitters have come close to Neill’ problem solving and attention to detail. Couldn’t recommend Neill highly enough. Do your selves a favor and ride in comfort what ever level you ride at. Glen Gibson (Victoria)
@@MicskiDKthe knee doesn't have to be worn out to hurt. It hurts when your knee is forced to bend at an unnatural angle (like a little bit sideways), especially when you're putting force through it to the pedals. Try setting up your cleats wrong and you'll see what I mean
Agreed, I make sure I take an allen key when I'm breaking new shoes in, I quickly know when your cleats are a bit off as I get lateral knee pain that is pretty much solved with a bit of cleat readjustment. I use Shimano yellow cleats as well which are pretty forgiving for me anyways.
My fitter got me into such a good fit that I pass the balance test (bent over no hands on bars) while riding on the road. It’s such a gift given how much pain I used to be in.
Gotta love Neill dropping absolute gold right from the start of the video. "you should be looking at the position of the rider" and not to worry about the bike is the best advice for a good bikefit.
This video was a god send, bringing up trapezius pain for more flexible individuals let me zero in on a good fit on my first road bike. Most videos I saw brought up joint pain, not the musculature around it cheers!
I have now watched the section on shouder drop starting at 2:30 like 10 times. Starting to sink in…. So vitally important as I see these ‘flawed’ posture motifs in many riders. Including myself. Headed down to the workshop to make some changes, think I may finally understand….
As said by others, simply amazing to have this resource and it’s free! You guys need to take Neill’s bike fitting on tour. “Coming to a city near you, Neill and Cam and the RCA show!” I would pay good money for that
OMG!!!! I would like to say that this is the number 1 issues I be having with my body on my bike, and no bike fitter have explained it the way you just did. wow thank you for this. other then starching what other things I can do to get more comfortable on my bike?
The slowtwitch -" best road bike handlebar setup" article is a "MUST READ" for bicycle fitters and mechanics . I build and repair , and give compliments to the cockpit setup of the Specialized Aethos .
Amazing video on how to determine if the stem height needs to be adjusted for comfort, pain relief, and preference. Is there a video on the best methods for adjusting the hardware of the stem for the appropriate height? I will do a proper search of your catalog. Thx!
The scapular retraction--great to get this confirmation from you. I've been dropping my bars, and going longer, to try to get rid of this, which is uncomfortable and 'just doesn't feel right.' But that's precisely what I was noticing and feeling on my bikes over the last 6 mos or so. I was kind of resisting going lower/longer, out of disbelief as I've got a spinal fusion at l4/5 but I guess it's a non-factor.
Same surgery. Ride with my back relatively straight (even in slight extension), with pelvic rotation, on an SMP saddle and a little more setback to take some load off the hands.
@@bengt_axle Cool. Funny fact. I have a couple different types/brands of shorts. The pads are different and I can totally notice when the pad's thicker I have to tip the nose up a bit to feel right. The thin shorts, back down. Spine things...
I just love these videos… I’m pretty new to cycling, and i have had all kind of issues. But after being seeing your videos, its gotten much better. I didn’t even knew that a bike fitter was a thing. But im gonna see one for sure, because pain in shoulders and neck after 15 min. Of cycling is just no fun. 🙂
the other tell tale, of course is if the bar tape of the hood to centre and the tops are worn, while the tape on the drops is as pristine as when it was wrapped.
Not related to the video but I've swapped my road bike to 150mm cranks and it's become a night and day difference for the better. I know you're a fan of shorter cranks and just wanted to share :D
Have definitely been doing the shrugged shoulders with head dropped down on my gravel bike. Will experiment with dropping the bars, didn't even consider that bars height may be the issue
Agree with the very good presentation of the form at the shoulders. But in my experience, morphology is just one part of the equation. You also have to pay attention to the function of the muscles. Some will have a very strong core, a different proprioception and just a different riding style they have adapted to as a result of their morphology. If your core is engaged, it will take a lot of the load off the T and C spine. And as to the riding style, take a look at Johan van Summaren. When he was riding professionally, he appeared to be a giant riding a bike that is two sizes too small. But that is what he wanted, in order to get aero, and perhaps because the sponsor did not make any larger frame.
Are the signs of the handlebars being too high the same as them being too close? i.e upon the shoulder/scapula? How can you tell which one is causing issue height or stem length?
I knew it I bought a new bike that is similar to my current bike albeit with a higher stack. My old bike is probably lower by about 10-20mm but somehow it feels more comfortable What was discussed in 3:00 and 4:05 is exactly what Im doing these days. I cant get comfortable apart from catching too much air. The drops feels way better than the hoods which is the opposite in general Thank you for imparting your knowledge! Appreciate it 👌👊
I know a few people who wear regular eyeglasses and that often requires a lot of neck bend to,actually see through them properly. They can’t assume a lower position because of that. Or similarly they use a mtb helmet with a Peak which can do the same thing.
A main complication with neck extension is impaired vision. I am short sighted. My every-day glasses do not reach well above my eyebrows, and they come with a frame. So to look ahead with clear sight, I have to bend the neck to the max. Or tilt my head down and look over the rim of my glasses, everything in a blur, with the bar from the frame in the way too. Prescription cycling glasses with full coverage are not sensibly available for my eyes (-4.5). Lens inserts do have the same limitations as my normal glasses, as they are pretty small.. Only option would be contact lenses, which I struggle to put in. But I reckon they would be a real game changer for my bike fit. Because I tend to strech out my arms, drop the body inbetween and then strech out the neck to get a clear view of the road. I wonder if this is something you consider in bike fits?
It all seems like good advice. However, I wish he had at least made a nod to different riding styles and aging riders. For longer distance riders and more comfort oriented riding (oddly the same), the bar height is usually set at least slightly higher than for racing or pure speed riding. For older riders, you also likely want the bars set slightly higher to accommodate some loss of flexibility. The mirror thing may be good in some ways, but there is no mention made of, "How does it feel?" I think people get all caught up in the most aero position and then wonder why they are in so much discomfort after even a moderate length ride.
Just tried lowering the stem 20mm cuz I kept getting upper back pain and my feeling is that is due to retracting my shoulder blades too long. Feels good but I need to test on a longer ride
I'm 58 years old and have the handlebars at the same level as the seat but I am getting to the limits of neck extension. Do I need to bring my handlebars even higher? or perhaps I have a rounded back posture and don't know it...??😮💨
One thing I really have had trouble confirming is the relationship between bar drop and stem length. Ie. is a longer stem and higher stack equal to a shorter stem and lower stack? Within reason of course.
It's definitely not equal, because bars don't end up in the same point in space. Although adjusting both at the same time isn't a terrible idea, if you imagine your ideal reach describing a circle between the saddle and the handlebar, when you're dropping your stack you might want to shorten your stem to stay on the circle.
Great video, I'll need to come back to it (and the others!)when I've lost 15kg because right now this excess middle aged spread is tainting everything I try and analyse to get a better (cough, aero!)position...and definitely creates problems even trying to hold time in the drops!!! (But thankfully can still knock out 100km with no niggles)
What you Are doing at 2:01 i cant definitely not do that I tip forward when I’m sitting this much forward. Does that mean I’m not strong enough in the core?
Great explanation. I am curious if Neill has worked with people who have different arm lengths? And if there are work-arounds to compensate for the difference?
Good question - yes I've seen plenty. Running the hoods slightly assymetrically works if it's a small discrepancy, but if it's huge then a custom stem with two clamping points for each bar "half" is the go. I've done a few over the years and they work really well - for example the right arm has a 120mm 12deg stem, and the left arm has a 90mm +6deg stem effectively. These are custom machined out of billet aluminium. - Neill
Im probably just a tiny bit more comfortable on the hoods than the drops, but not much in it. Still got 20mm to play with on the 58cm Emonda. Could go lower?
can we clone neill and get him to open a shop in europe? Also, a quick note. I find the bars are set up to high if i need to brace on the hoods while riding at moderate power and consequently fatigue my triceps in doing so. For me the tradeoff is between upper torso comfort and hip impingement, if i slam the stem i don't feel any pain anywhere on the spine or arms, but my left hip starts to feel uncomfortable especially in an aero tuck. if i set up the bars as high as possible my hip is fine but i get fatigued very easily in the scapular region and the triceps.
I'm in kinda the same spot. I wonder if it's just general fitness what's limitating here. If I could wish for a topic in these videos it would be exactly this: how can someone differentiate between a fitting problem and a personal fitness problem?
Interesting! I've always had my bars relatively high and also suffer tricep fatigue and general elbow discomfort. I also find myself gravitating to the drops quite often... Maybe time to experiment with going lower!
@@schaedlichd it would be interesting indeed, while it's true that getting fitter also means being more adapted to riding and thus being more flexible, there's certainly a limitation tied to the specifi physiology of the rider. Let's hope cam sees this as a suggestion
I'm no expert but I have watched many videos on road bike fit and apply them to my xc bike and my they have made a difference to comfort/ power and beyond The mtb/xc people just don't seem to get the same fine tuning videos as road bikers
@@kanethomas6998 yeah, road fit is much more locked-in so minor differences in reach/height saddle fore-aft is much more pronounced. It’s a shame we don’t see the same attention to detail dedicated to XC, that’s why I like to watch Neil’s videos. Man knows his stuff.
Sorry, maybe I'm "big bodied" but the second I lean forward I am on out of balance, on my hands, with numbness (and neck pain) in my future. I have tried ALL the concievable seat and bar positions and still, no "PIANO PLAYING" to be had. There is no "bike fit" solution for it. It seems to be a sport for the unusually thin. Oh well, makes for good YT content I guess, but every time you levitate out over the bars as if a few millimeters of adjustment is all I need... kind of smarts
How about when your lower back starts to hurt when you produce power in the drops for long time? I can do hours of Z2 in the drops but when I cycle tempo or above or even high Z2 in the drops it really starts to hurt.
You have a pinched or pressed nerve. Most likely a herniated disk close to C3,4,5. Mine is all three and for a while it felt like the left shoulder blade was burning underneath the bone. Find a good PT buddy or osteopath and always keep hydrated. Does wonders and has kept me from any fusions.
@@superboost1574 The irony of commenting on a nuanced bike fitter video (where Neil sets out general rules, but explains "it depends") with a doldrum generalisation like "M0AR FRONT WEIGHT TO THE MAX". Literally no EDR rider (since he asked about Enduro specifically) slams their stem. Not even Courdurier at 152cm/5ft on size S frames (where stack is often proportionally higher than other sizes).
good stuff! I did like the question below of this correlates to bars being to close as well.. I guess try either a shorter stem or lower bars independently and see which corrects the scapular retraction? @roadcyclingacademy6476
