Armored Core VI is Underwhelming (But Solid) 

Oh yeah that is a great point. I overall have a lot of respect for Fromsoft and i do think this game is a really solid attempt, it could have gone so much worse ha. And yes, most studios would not have the balls or ambition to even try to make a mainstream mech game, that's for sure. It was a massive risk and Fromsoft took it in a way that other devs, like modern capcom, just wouldn't. So huge props to them on that front for sure, but I do think they were overcautious on some of the mechanics, and so hopefully we can get something a bit more aggressive in the series as an update :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground Agreed! I hope the series continues.

Oh man that era of game reviews is terrible, even worse than what we have now. there are famous cases like poor Godhand getting slammed, but I think there are also so many other cases that people don't even realize, like AC4 and (somewhat) AC5. It would be fascinating to have an entire vid where I go back and look at poor action games that were shafted during that era, I know gungrave was as well.

Another issue for me, which dovetails with what you said, the levels are so big and beautiful with awesome geometry, verticality, layers, etc. And then there's just nothing. In a game series known for having a billion mech parts, there are very very few to find out in the world. So much potential for awesome secrets and exploring books and crannies, and there are just not that many. Barely worth it to explore the big beautiful levels, because 9/10 times there's no reward, so why even look when I'm probably getting nothing.

yeah I think it's a really lame and kind of 2010's direction to take the combat system. Especially because, like a said, western games are finally figuring out (slowly) that cooldowns are lame thanks to doom 2016

Oh that's an interesting point about AC5. So I've talked about this concept a bit in the past, but I don't do traditional/community based evaluation in terms of game design. And what I mean by that is, even if the rest of the armored core series has different mechanics than AC5, if I think AC5 has better mechanics, then I think that is still a valid point of comparison. Because you can say that the armored core fanbase mostly reject AC5, but for me if AC5 had a bunch of really cool ideas and improvements to the series design, that doesn't make AC5 wrong, it makes the fanbase wrong ha. So in terms of wall jumps and lack of weapon cooldowns, I think both are fantastic ideas and I think AC5 was moving in the right direction. So for AC6 to then remove the wall jumps and to add in weapon cooldowns, all that means to me is that AC6 is regressing back in terms of design in comparison to AC5. This actually happens all the time in game series. Where a game in a series will have a bunch of fantastic and innovative ideas, but won't sell well, so then the devs get scared and abandon these cool ideas. Just look at tekken tag 2 for example. Tag 2 had this great design in terms of the movement and sidesteps being strong, but it sold poorly. So Namco got it in their heads that strong movement and sidestep are bad for sales, and so now with tekken 8 everyone has cement shoes ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground I Didn't mean to make it sound like I was saying it was invalid, just wanted to provide some perspective on why they might have went with reloading. A lot of my favorite games after all are also some of the most unpopular in a series (Like RE6 haha) so if I didn't agree with you there, I would definitely be a hypocrite. I enjoy it either way as I personally think the removing of reloads is fun for just unloading everything at once, but I also enjoy the more tactical approach in the originals where pacing yourself was important, as the originals have a system where you can go in debt from spending too much on AC repairs and ammunition, which further encouraged improving your skills so as not to lose money and played into the mech-pilot simulation. Both the original and V's designs are great in their own way, and whichever one you like more will for sure comes down to preference of simulation VS shooter-gameplay. But I like both anyway so it's a win-win for me either way.

Oh hey my dude! Good news, I m gonna release arch 8 here soon! Try updating the core inside the core menu of arch, hopefully that will help! I also linked a romset name for arch 7 in the vid description of that vid :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground ye Ive seen the description and tbh I have no idea what to do with it since when I [try to legaly rip off roms from pcbs in my closet] it doesn’t have any info on its romset, and even if it had is it relevant if the same roms have been working perfectly before?

Thank you very much my dude!! Yes I do try to dig into areas of games that tend not to be discussed ha, or at least not at first.

Yes i have! So the thing about the melee cancel is that it is canceling something that I don't think should even be there in the first place, this startup dash thing. I think if the game forced you to commit on startup dash it would be outright insane ha, so yeah being able to boost out of that startup is nice, but it's not a true cancel in my book really. What would make the melee of the game interesting is if you could cancel out of the Recovery frames of the melee attack, now that would be a much more interesting cancel. As it is right now, i think the melee cancel is underwhelming because you are canceling out of an animation that shouldn't be there in the first place ha. And it's not a cancel that lets you skip the animation, it's just a cancel that allows you to restart it. Having some extra boost movement is sort of cool, but in the end I don't think it matters that much because circle strafing is much more powerful than head on rushdown. What the game needs is for the melee attack to come out faster, you already have solid movement speed with ground boosters.

hey my dude I'm glad you are enjoying the vids and thank you for commenting! So I probably could have mentioned the melee cancels more specifically in the video, because yes you are right that you can pull out of that homing phase with a boost, so that's good that Fromsoft arent' making you completely commit. However, perhaps if I explained what I think would be a better melee system, than maybe my critique might connect with you more. So like I said in the section about balance, I do think the melee weapons are "strong" in a statistical sense. In that, Fromsoft decided to compensate with their really slow and risky frame data by giving the melee attacks a massive pay off in terms of damage and stagger and all that. So, yes, I don't deny that the melee in the game is strong in that sense. However, when you compare them to something like the shotgun, which has much better frame data and is much safer, then the melee feels extremely clunky in comparison, even with being able to cancel because of how long that startup and recovery are. What I think would have been a better melee system, is that, instead of making the melee this big lottery attack, instead fromsoft should have removed the built in startup phase, reduced the recovery on the swing, and then dropped the amount of damage the melee does. I just think it would have fit with the flow of the gameplay so much better. So basically, faster more versatile melee attacks, that are also built in and don't need a weapon slot, that do less damage. Because right now for melee to work you basically need to plan your entire build and gameplan around it, which I think is less interesting than having it be a common option that all mech builds use.

​@@TheElectricUndergroundThanks for your reply! This definitely helped me understand your position much better, and i agree that double shotguns plus weapon bay upgrade are really strong and add a really cool flow to the combat that i too find more interesting. I guess the reason why i didn't find the fact that melee builds aren't the strongest or that they have a different flow to them as not necessarily a negative, is because AC is a series that encourages trying out different builds until you find your favorite, and if you don't like one then you can just change it without any negative repercution (well, at least in some AC games) and a natural consequence of this kind of design is that some builds are going to be/feel worse than others. I guess that since this is normal in this kind of games, i never stopped to consider wether or not this is something negative, but i'll definitely take it into consideration from now on. I think your criticism is super fair and i can see myself agreeing with you if i look at it from your perspective or give it a second thought. That's why i like your reviews to begin with, cuz they always offer an interesting point i haven't even considered before. Keep the good work!

yes i feel exactly the same way about dark souls actually. i think it came up with a lot of really cool ideas and design concepts, but I strongly prefer Nioh over it, because Nioh takes it to that next level with it's combat system, especially the ki pulse mechanic. Actually, it would be really cool if AC 6 had some kind of weapon pulse system, so you wouldn't be hard locked into weapon cooldown.

I feel the same way. Every time I see a Souls-like without a pause button I groan a bit.

I talked about 5 because it directly proceeds 6 and is the game that informs the audience/player expectation. There is some kind of strange mind cloud going on in the AC fanbase where I guess you all want AC5 erased from conversation or something ha. Like with street fighter 5, sure that's a low point for the series in many players minds (mine included) but it is the game that most heavily informs Street Fighter 6, even if street fighter 6 is reacting against some of its design. I honestly think the AC fanbase has been too hivemind on AC5 because even if there are areas of the game the fanbase doesn't like that doesn't mean all of it's ideas are bad (I think the walljumps, for example, are really cool). And also I agree that AC5 has a lot of the design and mechanics from the older games (clearly) so that just makes it a very natural comparison point to AC6, which is clearly the biggest shift in the series if you take a step away from this negative cloud around AC5. Think about this with any other series. When virtua fighter 6 comes out, what is going to be the point of comparison? Virtua Fighter 3? It's going to be VF 5 of course. I think this is some AC forum culture or something. Also I did not get the fast fall point wrong. Fast fall is a distinctive state of falling at a faster rate than the default fall rate. In AC6 this has been removed. Letting go of the controls is just the default max fall speed. That's like saying letting go of jump in mario bros is a fast fall. In AC 5 when you jump the game has a default booster on fall speed (which kicks on automatically), and then if you turn off your boosters you plummet immediately. This meta has been removed from AC6, the game literally will not allow you to manually turn off your boosters while falling. Instead you have to just wait and literally do nothing, because the apm of the game just isn't low enough. Calling this a fast fall is not remotely in the ballpark of a fast fall. If the game makes you wait to enter the state, there's nothing fast about that ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground it has more to do with 5 being a pretty significant departure gameplay-wise and 6 returning to more ac gameplay norms while doing some of it's own thing. it doesn't make sense to complain about verticality in 6 not having wall jumping and instead being about using boosters when 13 out of 15 of the previous games worked the same way. that makes 5 the outlier in that situation instead of a key comparison point. it makes more sense to compare it to 4th gen because it's using more 4th gen style movement (boosting for free, very aerial, critical usage of quick boosting), and then talking about whether or not it does it better or worse. otherwise it's apples and oranges even though, sure, *technically* 5 was the more recent game. it's one thing to say you prefer the wall jump verticality of 5 (it was fun in it's own way), but to not even mention or compare the booster movement to *any other entry in the series* is just... weird, and it makes it seem like 5 is your only point of reference for armored core. it's like talking about kh2 and dinging it because it didn't use the card system from chain of memories. like sure that's technically the previous and more recent entry but its obvious that design-wise they iterated from kh1. or if you want you could say the same with kh3 and bbs. as for the fast fall i really think you should actually go lab it out because what you're describing as a fast fall is in the game exactly as you described it. not sure what else you want there. i used it a ton in my playthroughs and managed to dodge attacks i otherwise would not have been able to, it's a pretty important mechanic if you're in the air a lot. now if you wanted down boosts i'd agree with you, that'd be cool. or maybe you mean a fast fall where you can still control the ac? that would also be nice. but as-is the game does, matter-of-fact have fast fall.

That's great to hear! One really big hope I have is that with the success of AC6, a bunch of people (myself included actually) will start to dig through the older AC games and appreciate them more :-)

yeah ac6 feels regressive in terms of the mechanics compared to 5. Where From clearly thought that wall kicks and the more complex boost system are probably going to be tricky for new players, so they just went back to a more basic movement system, which I think is a shame. They could have the more automated camera for the new players, but then keep the advanced movement.

Yeah, im giving Mark a pass on what makes this series great. Him liking AC5 & AC5vd is understandable when you know what hes trying to do with his channel.Being differnt to stand out from the crowd of reviewers on RU-vid "imo" lol

@@ronniepatterson2827 I don't think he's trying to be different to stand out. He's just an oldschool gamer who focuses more on rulesets & play mechanics. Most game reviewers only talk about the art assets of a game. I agree that he's a noob at AC & I was shocked that he only mentioned ACV. I thought he was going to work his way down to Last Raven or one of the last PS2 entries.

oh yeah the game is still really solid and I do recommend it, I just think it falls short of the MUST PLAY type of recommend, due to the restrictive design choices that I discuss in the vid.

Cyberbots is the goat

Yes and what s crazy is that mech has actually been surprisingly niche for a really long time, like there are barely any videos on RU-vid of armored core 5, which is crazy ha

Just curious, but what is the appeal to Cyberbots? I haven't put much time into the game but at first glance it seems fairly mediocre. It shows you these cool backgrounds getting destroyed but you aren't the ones doing the damage. The mechs seem to have a long, medium and/or short range attack button that seems to prescribe which attacks you'll use at various ranges.

@@claytonweaver7335 It's a very personal choice. I'm a sucker for 2D games and fighting games (I just play for fun with friends, not competitive). Generally speaking I prefer the 90s SNK games when it comes to 1 on 1 fighters, four buttons are enough. This game for me ticks all the boxes of good, short arcade fun with easy controls. The mechas feel heavy and are very well presented, as are the levels. All other Capcom fighters feel like SF with a different coating to me (apart from the VS series). This is a big departure. It's like a nice bar pick up that left a lasting impression ^^

@@SNKBossSyndrom I do think my favorite part of the game is how the mechs 'feel' in terms of weight and dashing. I just played the Capcom Fighters Collection recently and got the impression there was little Capcom could do to improve Darkstalkers but quite a bit they could do with Cyberbots to give it a little more replay value. imo

Getting the weapon bay upgrade might honestly be my favorite piece of progression in the game. Finding out I can actually bring two melee weapons was so hype

I have, but the problem with the swords is how much time they take to use, it s crazy ha. It s what tanks the pace of the game. Like I say in the vid, the swords are statistically strong (massive damage and all that) but they are naturally weak in terms of the overall game design because of how slow they are and how much recovery they have. I think a faster but less damaging sword system would have fit the game much better

@@TheElectricUndergroundI feel the same way about melee. In previous games it was limited by energy supply, but you could swing like 10 times without running out, and by then your opponent would be long gone anyway. In this game I keep forgetting about the cooldown and when I get in close, I’m hammering on the trigger and nothing is happening.

that’s because in this one you can do 5-7k damage in one melee hit.

​@@TheElectricUndergroundthe dagger and stun baton are way faster and have a massively short cool down comparatively

I'm glad my critiques have resonated with you :-) yes absolutely I think the base product of AC6 is solid and I do recommend it, but I think if Fromsoft added a bit more technical options and increased the pace more, then they will absolutely have something special on their hands. Who knows, it's entirely possible that they may make some changes in line with my critiques in newer entries or updates on the series :-)

Oh yes gundam vs is absolutely on my list of games to check out! It along with Virtual On :-) I'm glad you can understand my critics because I don't think Fromsoft did a bad job or anything, it's just overly restricted which works better in a more slow paced action rpg like dark souls, but can really hurt the pace of a mech game where having a lot of tactical movement and attack options is the fundamental appeal. :-)

It's got a very similar feel; it does lock your AC to always face the enemy so there's a little less positioning, and landings aren't quite so hard that they're solid punishes, but overall it has the same smoothness as well as chunkiness that you would want.

Yeah AC6 is very intuitive, it is a great starting point in a lot of ways for people less familiar with mech games. Why I find it a bit underwhelming though is that I think in Fromsoft''s effort to make the series and game more accessible to the average player, I think they trimmed a bit too much out of the the technical side of things, especially with the weapon cooldowns and lack of fast fall. It is a solid game though, and I do recommend AC6, but with the added note of encouraging people to also check out the older AC games as well.

This is my review of your review of my review: The first 3 paragraphs are not a view of game design that matters. It doesn't matter if a mechanic "makes sense" or not in terms of the gameplay presentation or setting, especially in a sci fi game. You could mount this defense for any mechanic in any game. I could make a game where you are attacked by zombies in a swamp and none of your weapons work because they are all wet ... it makes sense, but is it compelling design? If you actually view game design from this perspective then there are a million critiques that could be made about the game not making sense right? In the end it doesn't matter at all, none of it makes sense and the theme is there to support the gameplay, not the gameplay is there to support the theme. You've got your priorities backwards on this whole notion. On the circle strafing point, you forgot that it connects to my critique of the camera system. Yes in any shooter circle strafing is going to be a strong technique, I mention that. The key is that in an FPS or in older AC games, the restricted camera makes circle strafing more challenging to do, because you have to manage both looking and aiming at the same time. In an FPS, it's much trickier to circle strafe all the time because you can only see in front of you right, instead of all around you. So it's naturally more risky. In AC6 however, the game gives you a full unrestricted view of the play field and then pairs that view with an automatic lock on mechanic, just like Elden Ring horse combat. So you don't need to aim, the game aims for you. You don't need to look and control the camera precisely, it's zoomed out for you. All you need to do is simply move in a circle, you don't even need to manage your boosting anymore. It's a massive simplification of the core combat. Finally, on the point about scoring, the areas I am talking about are specific and pretty technical. They are not core fundamental issues that make the game poorly designed, I do think the game is overall well made. But these are the areas where the design is too cautious, so it results in an overall very solid well made game, but one that is missing out on being truly great. It is sort of funny that in today's review space, reviewers tend to declare a game either a 5 out of 10 or a masterpiece ha, with little room in the middle for nuance.

The main draw of AC5 was the tank-like controls and multi-player. It was the same reason why Chrome Hounds had a nice following on the 360.

@@MrRawnch Of course, my issue with this review is that Mark is using V/VD as the standard to judge 6 while implying that the series got "casualized" when in reality it is MUCH closer to the old games than V/VD could ever hope to be. Hell he doesnt even mention one of the arguably most "streamlined" changes which is the lock-on mechanics. I have absolute respect for Mark when he talks about Shmups and agree with almost all his takes on the matter but when it comes to other genres/games he does feel very contrarian for the sake of it and in this case in particular, very ignorant of the series in general.

@@MaverickHunter17 I played AC V on my friends Xbox 7 years ago and let me tell you, him speaking fondly of AC V and Verdict Day when they were so much mediocre and radically different from AC Last Raven and 4A and using 5 as the basis of him giving criticism for 6 is a bad move when people only remember it for its mediocrity and the god awful coop system.

@@davidlanceescandor1310 Indeed, it'll be interesting to see his reactions if he does start playing older ACs

@@MaverickHunter17 His review, while solid, becomes somewhat pointless to me if he decides that AC 5 of all games were a good example when AC 5 was a major departure even by old series standards. AC 6 is closer to the old gen games than the "new" gen.

This is not fast fall, this is just falling at the fastest speed the game allows, which is not fast. That's like saying there is fast fall in mario when you let go of the jump button ha. Fast fall is a specific state when you can increase your fall speed beyond the default fall speed. All you are describing here is the default fall speed. So every game has fast fall essentially by this view.

@@TheElectricUnderground what are you looking for, then? Your boosters all shut off and you plop down like a rock, what else do you want in a fast fall to consider it a "real" one? I'm genuinely curious, I don't see the distinction you're trying to make. In my mind, in this game, there is a slow fall and a fast fall. Falling while holding a directional input is slow, and falling while not holding one is fast.

yeah it's funny how many euroshmup concepts mech games tend to use actually ha. i think the reason why mech games get away with having movement inertia and that sort of thing though is that they function in 3D space, rather than being locked into 2d. Still, I do like games like AC5 which reduce the amount of movement inertia and have a slightly more arcade feel ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, uhhh?/? I think I may watch your avoid euroshmup vid again lol

I'm glad you're optimistic, but the recent development trends of from software haven't really been too encouraging on the "add complexity back in" front. this is coming from someone that despised and was disappointed by Elden ring but loved Sekiro despite it being a bit of a mainstreamified Tenchu in some ways, but i digress

@@arisumego Elden Ring was fantastic... In what ways was it worse then say Dark Souls 1 ? I beat and enjoyed Sekiro for what it was and even had the demon bell on for the last few bosses - but its playstyle was very limited and I have no desire to go back... But in Elden Ring, you can do so much with the variety of character builds that its very fun... You can arguably make the game too easy between leveling up too much and some things being "OP" but pretty much every Souls Game with a level up system is like that at least on the first New Game.

I wouldn't hold my breath. This game was designed to bring in Souls players. What I hate is that FROM promised that this game wasn't going to be Souls meets AC and ended up lying about it. What I hate is that Souls players have no problem saying "get good" but most of those fans couldn't comprehend the classic controls the series was revered for. I'd be pissed if every major publisher made all their games play like their flagships.

@@MrRawnch How is it any more souls than the rest? Stagger bar? Sure. But otherwise it's nothing like souls lol

@@hachikuji_mayoi I literally just posted the Souls bits in my first rant. The repair health, dodge button, and the over powered bosses that can kill you in a few hits and only take chip damage.

Exactly master, and I think if this was suggested to Fromsoft (they won't see my humble little review), but if this was general fan feedback, they would pick up on this being a change they want ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground Do you think there was some intentional gimping of the melee to avoid comparisons to Dark Souls?

You don't need to build the right mechs as much though ha. The mech building in ac6 is much more simplified, in terms of what the game demands you do to. In 5 i constantly had to research builds for the various missions, whereas in 6 i could run the same build pretty much without any issue ha. Ironically you are missing that by introducing the simplified controls, the game gives you this really simple meta of just constantly circle strafing, so builds and stuff like that become less meaningful. Also I heart and comment on every comment that I read and respond to ha, plenty of which are critical so I'm not exactly sure where that is coming from other than you are reaching my friend, big time.

@@TheElectricUnderground 1. *simplify and expand* means the game has a lower barrier to entry while letting the designers go crazier with enemies to account for smoother controls; Balteus is closer to an endboss from other games and it's chapter 1 2. using dual shotgun while claiming buildcraft doesn't matter as much is worryingly ironic 3. I said "all the positive and *easy* comments"; a comment can be both critical and easy. If you really believe your points are sound, *stop floating stuff to the top and let them cook on their own*

i guess I'll answer you back in list form ha. 1. Dark souls inspired check points are extremely common and easily traced back to when dark souls became popular. Even shovel knight has them. The fact that From's other games don't have checkpoints is irrelevant, it's specifically dark souls that inspired other games. 2. There is no debate that the souls series has massively outsold the AC series and is the reason why Fromsoft is as popular as they are. The scale of sales between Dark Souls and AC is absurdly lopsided, so you are reframing this in a really silly way because at one point AC was their more popular series ... before the souls series existed. Your trying this really specific claim that because AC was their initially successful series, it somehow is more influential than dark souls because the butterfly effect of them going out of business without AC ha. You could make this claim in all kinds of silly ways, like the Jackson 5 is more influential than Michael Jackson's solo career because without the Jackson 5 he wouldn't have a solo career, and on and on. 3. I don't do series/tradition based game analysis. If all the other AC games have weapon cooldown, then AC5 removed weapon cooldown, and then AC6 put weapon cooldown back in, just because it was a mechanic from old games doesn't make it the right design choice. In this case AC6 is just being regressive in terms of game design. Tradition does not make game design decision valid. When I play older AC games I will critique the weapon cooldown in them just like I would in AC6. if AC5 is the only game in the series without weapon cooldown, then it is the game in the series that gets the idea right. 4. No there isn't. You don't fast fall you just fall at the fastest fall speed the game allows, which isn't fast. This is like saying in mario if you let go of the jump button you "fast fall" ha. 5. I don't discuss AC3, I compare AC5 and AC6 so what AC3 does is irrelevant. Like I said above, I don't do traditional based reviews, so for all I know AC3 controls horribly, but AC3 is less relevant to the discussion than AC5, since 5 proceeds 6 directly. 6. I explained this point in point 3. 7. By this definition every game is an RPG, Ninja Gaiden is an RPG because you role play as a ninja and you level up your weapons. AC6 is pushing more in the direction of an rpg in terms of combat design, but I don't think this is because Fromsoft are consciously trying to market the game as an RPG, but rather is just a hold over of their combat design decisions in souls games. And like I said if all the older AC games are sluggish and control poorly as you are saying, this doesn't make them automatically better designed than 5. It sounds like 5 made a lot of really smart design decisions that are not being appreciated at all ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground Your points were fair. I still don't think bonfires are the same like most games that use checkpoints. Checkpoints can happen at anytime, even during bosses. I didn't mean to imply that AC is more influential than Souls, just that From would have closed down years ago if it was for the AC series selling well enough. AC, King's Field, Shadow Tower never sold better than AC till Dark Souls. So I think AC is just a bit special and it's why From brought it back.

Daemon X Machina is closer to the classical series than part 6. Although I'm progressing AC6 -- I find it to be a cop-out and a departure from the series.

The fact that Daemon X Machina was made by former Armored Core developers may have something to do with that.

@@bansho7076 That makes a lot of sense.

Oh no i didn't' miss the kick mechanic, that thing is pretty lame and is far from the answer to the issues with weapon cooldown. Because lets say you get an enemy in stagger, sure you can kick them, but it's pretty slow and doesn't do much damage, and it sends the enemies flying across the screen, completely forfeiting your position on them. Honestly it would be better if the game gave you some kind of pummel or something, because the last thing you want when you have an enemy in stagger is to give them a position reset while taking a little bit of damage on them. Honestly what I started to do when I was waiting for reloads while the enemy was in stagger was to reposition myself behind the enemy, so that when I finally reloaded my weapon I would at least be in a good position against them.

@@TheElectricUnderground I see, but also you can use Assault Armor while enemies are stunned, it deals quite a lot of damage and can be an extremely good addition to your stagger combo, also big bosses don't fly away after you hit them, so you can kick them multiple times while they're stunned. And you can fall faster in this game if you don't hold any direction on your left stick, you fall about two times faster then if you were holding forward for example, but I can totally see why they didn't add the fast fall button, it would be too OP especially in PVP, since it would basically be a vertical dodge that would fuck up lock on systems of the enemies really bad and everyone would spam it (especcially the reverse jointed leg guys).

Yes i'm super curious how AC will affect the other mech games in terms of interest. I could see it creating a bubble for other mech games to get more notice, which would be really cool.

The 4 weapon slot upgrade lets you switch weapons and theres no delay for switching so it lets you bypass reloading and overheating but its a choice between extra weapons or shoulder weapons.

I'm happy you were looking forward to my review! This one ended up being a lot of homework ha because I didn't just play AC6, I also played a ton of AC5 and researched a bunch of the older games. Overall though, this review was actually a ton of fun as mech genre is a genre that I enjoy playing and talking about :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground we appreciate the hard work! Keep it up!

Yes I love mech based shmups, I hope we start to see more of them :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground More mech based shmups, the better I say, especially if they're designed by Shoji Kawamori.

Yeah i don't hate the new camera system by any means, but I think what Fromsoft should have done is added a bit more limitation to it, so that your mech movement is still more meaningful, like maybe have it where you can peak left and right but still need to turn using the face of the character, like Resi4 or something. I think an in-between of the fully free camera of 6 and the restricted camera of 5 would have been perfect.

Yes the circle strafing meta is something I wonder if Fromsoft are aware of or not. I assume they must be aware of it to some degree, but this game is definitely custom built to make circle strafing the go to strategy ha. A lot of it has to do with the unlocked 3rd person camera + the lock on mechanic. As soon as you combine those two design choices, the player doesn't really need to worry about manually aiming or positioning to inflict damage, so you are then completely free to focus on moving in a circle around the opponent to evade their attacks while still using yours. It comes up in a lot of modern games sadly. FPS also encourage circle strafing in a lot of ways, but in an fps you literally can't see around you so it's a bit more limited there because of the camera angle. Funny enough another genre that really struggles with circle strafing are twin stick shooters. So if you are having trouble in a twin stick, usually you can just circle strafe for the win ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground The thing is, circle strafing has always been a dominant part of movement in the meta for Armored Core games. But here was the catch. Given that turning speeds are slower or faster relative to weight class and leg type, and the fact that the camera is coupled with that turning speed, a HUGE part of the game is aiming and managing your turning, plus other movements in 3D. This games destroys all that in the worst way, making it like Gundam vs. or ZOE, or Virtual On. For those games, that style works. For here, it just ruins integral skills that make the series so unique and fun. The circle straffing meta NOW, is mindless. What was once a skillful dance is now a mindless pattern.

Your getting too stuck in this traditional "vet" view of game design. Weapon cooldowns as a a mechanic are not compelling, it is a boring way to create balance. This is a critique that applies across action game design as a whole. When it comes to weapon/move balance, there are two areas to consider, the natural balance of the move and the statistical balance of a move. The natural balance of a move is how well it fits in with the overall game design, how much it naturally lines up with the core combat of the game. So in the case of AC6, the rifles and shotgun have strong natural balance because they fit with the meta of circle strafing and constantly moving. The melee, on the other hand, fits very poorly with the natural meta of the game because it has massive startup, requires you to charge head on at enemies, and then has massive recovery frames. So how do you balance the melee of this game? What fromsoft did, was just take the basic approach of leaving the melee of the game unnatural to the core gameplay, but then just statistically buffing it by giving it huge damage stats, imposing staggers, and then nerfing the gun meta of the game by imposing cooldowns. This is classic nerfing good options to make way for a naturally weak option. You mention SPD in street fighter, your familiar with this issue in fighting games right? Where they need to constantly nerf good characters rather than buffing weak characters' natural options. Same applies here. Instead, what AC6 should have done was make the melee combat of the game more naturally good, by reducing the startup frames and recovery frames, and then reducing the damage. So instead of doing one massive high commitment melee attack that you have to spend all day fishing for, you instead have a melee system of lower commitment strikes that can be performed while moving. Is this traditional AC design, no. But AC6 has radically shifted the way combat works with the new camera system, and so the other systems should be altered to match with the new meta. Don't get stuck in "vet" views of combat design, that's how you get series that stagnate and die off and the fans sit and wonder why ha.

It has nothing to do with traditional or not traditional. It is simply a design concept. Consider the difference between a shotgun and a handgun in your favorite shooter. Think of how differently the play flow is with a shotgun; boom, boom, move, boom, boom, move. There's a satisfying flow to it. But additionally its about balance. If you could unload your shotgun endlessly in CSGO that would become the meta. But BECAUSE it has a limit/reload it allows for each individual shot to be more powerful than all the other weapons without making them obsolete. In summary gameplay flow and balance. Which makes me think you might be playing the game wrong. You're not supposed to unload as soon as it finishes reloading. For example its often a good idea to hold off unloading your Zimmermans for when you stance break them because you do extra damage. Conversely depending on the situation you might use them up front because by the time you stance break them they'll have reloaded. You just have to learn the flow. And its usually a good idea to have at least one weapon with a lot of ammo to sustain damage and chip away at their stagger. The gatling gun, a lot of the handguns, and rifles. f you play right (unless you make specific builds) you should almost always be doing something. There's a flow to it that I didnt really fine until maybe chapter 3. I dont think the sword is bad, in fact the opposite. It is a "contextual" tool. You have to strategize when you use it. When you stance break, when you're already up close and you know it'll stance break, or against enemies that are easily outmanuevered. So no, your not supposed to bum rush your opponent. The startup is supposed to be long. So you cant just spam it. This is a very basic concept. Look at Elden Ring. Unga Bunga sticks move slow but hit hard, daggers are quick but do less damage. It would be dumb if they were the same. And it would be dumb if there was no strategy or gameplay element to using the plasma sword. Some of them are contextual or skill based too. I used the pile driver on the Sea Spider but itd be crazy hard to get it off on Nightfall Raven. I didnt mention Street Fighter. You might be replying to the wrong comment?

Me too! i think the fromsoft backlog is really cool and full of interesting ideas! I hope the dev does do more mech stuff and non souls stuff, Fromsoft are absolutely one of the only current studios that I respect in terms of game design ha.

Thanks for the insight. How did you find the stagger mechanic? I don't consider myself a true AC fan but I didn't feel that the hyperfocus on stagger to be a positive or "AC".

A game with not even one sniper is the best mech game you played? Seriously.. No. Customization is severely lacking and builds are locked out of viability due to the stagger bar, seriously hate these generalized half-ass statements.

Yea what's worse is that one of the OP builds is something I genuinely just gravitated towards naturally (dual shotguns) because I found it cool but now I'm expected to play other builds if I want the game to be challenging just cause FROM couldn't find a way to balance their game. The whole "find your own fun" atittude is very frustrating to deal with cuz it feels like people just don't want to understand the countless reasons for why you wouldn't wanna gimp your own mech.

Yeah i'm not deep into the game enough to know for sure, but I get the feeling that the game is going to have basically more universal builds that will get the job done in almost all cases ha.

Please point me to a single build, with a single unchanging set of weapons, possible to make in Chapter 1, that can beat every boss in the game without exceptions and without several tries. I haven't found one so far. If you've found one, I suspect you've been paying more attention to forums and reddit than the game itself.

@@boghogSTG So you beat Balteus with the starter shotguns? Is that what you're saying? That's very impressive if true. I personally found those shotguns to be useless. If you're talking about the Zimmermans you don't even get until Chapter 3, I'd still like you to confirm that you managed to beat Ibis in under 5 attempts. Personally, I have no idea what any of you people are talking about. The game is plenty hard for the average player, no matter which build you choose. Some people will struggle more than others, and some bosses will be more challenging for some players than others, but I'm not going to sit here for even a second and believe that all of you just happened to beat every boss in the game without several attempts and a build you came up with on your own. "But 5 attempts isn't hard" most games won't have you retrying a bossfight even once, let's not confuse Dark Souls difficulty with what's actually normal in modern gaming.

@@GeorgePerakis Yup, I used the default shotguns until right before the worm, didnt even switch to zimmermans right away. They arent particularly worse than double zimmermans in terms of stamina breaks, you just need some decent high damage shoulder/melee weapons to capitalize on them Ibis took 4-6 attempts yeah, I would not call that hard in the slightest but even if you want to theres still a problem cuz the core issue is that I didnt need to learn bosses thoroughly to beat them, regardless of attempt number. For Balteus, Ibis and Ayre I had to pick some stuff up (hug Balteus during slashes, dont be greedy with Ibis, dodge into Ayre doing her slash) but it was hardly comprehensive and other non major boss fights might as well not have movesets cuz its so easy to tank them. If I had to switch my build to trivialize each one at least thatd make some sense but no, double shotguns + straight missile launchers/cannons owned everything. Even if it took 20 attempts this kind of thing is unacceptable in a "hardcore" action game IMO

Very important point that I've talked about in previous reviews, but I don't do series/traditional based reviews of game mechanics. I look at the mechanics of a game more in terms of design overall. So this point you are bringing up here is a common example of a mentality I try to avoid. So looking at AC5, let's say AC5 is the only game in the series that removes weapon cooldown and has this walljump based movement system and camera system. I know that AC4 does have fast fall without boost, but let's say these mechanics are unique to just AC5. These choices that AC5 has made were smart game design decisions. So that if AC6 decides to go back to a simpler movement system and then adds in weapon cooldowns, just because these mechanics were used in older games doesn't make them good, it just means that the game design has regressed backwards. If there is one lesson I def want to communicate on this channel, it's that tradition does not make game design good. But a lot of gamers have this mentality that if a series just keeps repeating bad design over and over, at some point that bad design becomes good, and then funny enough when it is then altered (like you are saying happened in AC5) then it's AC5 making the bad choice ha. So I do plan on going back and playing the older Armored Core games, and I promise that if I come across weapon cooldown and other complaints that I made in AC6, I will critique them as well. Just because a game design decision is old, doesn't make it good.

@@TheElectricUnderground well because people like gen 1-4 than v Personally i like them all Try to play gen 4 and gen 5

Yes, the wall jump that was in 5 was to compensate for the lack of true flight in the game. I didn't have a problem with it but a lot of people seemed to hate it. So it's smart game design to you and horrible game design to a majority of players. Ultimately, this is a case of 'to each his own'. I was just saying play the other games for a broader spectrum of the evolution or devolution of game mechanics. Great video btw man, I love to hear other's experiences with this game

im also not sure if the circle strafing is intentional. Also, I think it's viable but i think its too soon to write it off as the best approach to boss fights.

I would not consider that a fast fall, that's just the default fall speed of the game. A fast fall is a special state that can tactically increase timing of fall speeds. Like when you let go of Jump in Mario Bros, going straight down is the fastest default fall speed, but that's not a fast fall in the sense that I mean. It's pretty clear that Fromsoft have intentionally removed this concept from the game, as it would naturally happen if you turn off the boosters right? But it doesn't.

uh no, fast fall in 6 is still slow as molasses, you can't even turn off booster mid air then wtf is the point? Standing still to fast fall is stupid.

Yes and I don't think they had to 1 to 1 keep the AC5 camera system, but I think if they kept some of it's more technical elements preserved in the new camera system, it would have given the game a tighter and more interesting feel in terms of controls. Perhaps they could have found a middle ground between the two, rather than just chucking the ac5 system all together and going elden ring style free aim.

If you ever actually played 6, instead of listening to nostalgic reviewers, you'd realize its biggest inspiration is in fact ACFA, and it's actually really fun.

@@GeorgePerakis Holy cow that’s a lot to unload. Ok first off, I do own the game and second point is I’m not saying it’s a bad game, just too different from what I liked about the last games. Third, jumping to conclusions usually make people look like fools

Oh what an awesome comment! yes I think AC5 is absolutely worth a revisit because by the tone of the comments of this video, i think armored core fans have dismissed it much too quickly. This happens in fanbases pretty frequently, like I remember a lot of fans saying how crap NG3 Razor's Edge is, but that game is actually really awesome, but the NG fanbase just wants to sit and talk about how NG Black is the best because ... well that's never explained that clearly ha. (Though NG black is of course a really cool game).

I hope so, would be nice to see how Fromsoft approaches character action genre again. I would like to see return of Kuon(survival horror) or Tenchu(stealth) from them too.

Oh yeah I really want to start digging through some older from soft games, maybe beginning with core 4

Thank you very much ray! Yeah poor AC 4 and 5 were in that nasty era of video game critics where they really didn't give the time of day to game mechanics and were completely obsessed with "immersive" stuff like The Last of Us, which I think is easily the most over-rated game of all time. Also I'm just looking at the obs monitor when I record, there's this whole complicated reason why I don't look directly at the camera while I record that's sort of hard to explain, but mostly because I want my vids to be visually distinct from the usual talking at you pov every single youtuber seems forced to use.

@@TheElectricUnderground 🙏 thank you for being consistently entertaining and informative!

well I think I can actually help put my critiques into a clearer picture for you, because I think you are picking up on most of what I am saying. I agree that AC is not purely an action game series, but in AC6 they are pushing it more in that direction by simplifying what you might call the "sim" elements of the controls of the older games. Like the camera system being unrestricted bird's eye view, and the movement no longer really using boosting and traction anymore. So what Fromsoft have done with AC6 is that they have pushed the design of the controls of the game more into an action game style, but then did not capitalize on these new streamlined controls with more technical options and design. So AC6 sits in this weird compromise of not being more and sim like the older games, but also not being fast paced and technical in an action game sense either. That's why I find it underwhelming, because they should have pushed the action elements further based on the changes to the controls and camera. Right now I feel like the game is playing itself for me and not giving me many options to develop a personal playstyle (and I don't mean build wise, I mean movement wise). And then on the point of an rpg, I would not classify any of the AC games as having RPG elements. Now I know that RPG is a term that is heavily used everywhere and now basically anything that involves any kind of stats or management is automatically an RPG ha (like is Gran Torismo an RPG?), but what I am referring to with RPG elements are the combat design of including cooldowns. On paper, there is no actual reason to put them into the game (older AC don't have cooldowns), but because stamina and meter management has become so ingrained into combat design these days, because of action RPGs like Dark Souls, devs have started to use cooldown as a tool of weapon balance rather than using what I think is the better approach, which is the natural stats of the weapons. So rather than having the gatling shoot and have this lame cooldown period, just naturally balance the fire rate and damage of the gatling so line up with the other weapons without cooldown, that way players aren't having to manage meters or stats as they play.

@@TheElectricUnderground aight ya I get your first point. For me tho I’d prefer them to have gone in the opposite direction and make it less fast paced action (and I’m saying this as a MASSIVE arcade action game fanatic and as some who’s fave AC games are 4 and 4A) my big issue related with that is the beam sword. I haven’t been using it, it’s not my play style, I like shooting big guns lol but there were 2 tough AC battle encouters I was stuck on where I decided to toss on the heavy beam sword to try it out for fun, and it just melted them immediately first try. I defs agree with your point in the vid that they seem to really want you to use it, I mean it’s gotta be why they made it so OP. And the issue I have is not even just that it’s OP, it’s that it takes very little skill to have it be OP. Like I said I haven’t been using it, so naturally I was using it like shit that time, and still, 2 lucky hits and the rival AC was evaporated. Really hope they fix that in a balance patch. The melee should do low to moderate regular damage. Would make sense for it to do high stagger, to create an interesting risk with swooping in up close, but as it is now it’s essentially just a win button. But I mean I’m still having a blast with the game. I personally fkn LOVE meter management in game design. Slap a meter on something and suddenly you gotta think about when and at what cost to use it. But ya, the same old unimaginative “weapon overheating” is definitely less elegantly woven into the global game design than in past games like the laser rifle draining your mechs energy like in AC1, which I’d argue is also a variation on a cooldown mechanic at its core. Personally I’m really enjoying having to be very mindful of which of my 4 weapons I’m using and when, and having to keep a steady eye on the meters indicating when their cooldown is done so I can begin charging the pulse rifle shot while I launch a grenade so the charge is done and ready to go while the launcher is reloading, for example. It’s also been really fun having to choose the right weapons to synergize with my weapon load out to make sure I’m not just sitting there waiting for all 4 weapons to reload. I was stuck on the chapter 1 boss for 2 hours getting killed due to having to sit around defenceless waiting, until I really learnt to start playing like that. I feel that’s when the game really clicked for me. But I get why people aren’t digging it. You’re not the only one on here I’ve watched reviews from saying similar things. I also tend to love restrictive mechanics like the brutally unforgiving weapon degradation in From Soft’s first Shadow Tower game, and seems weapon degradation is universally hated these days so who knows maybe I’m weird one 🤷‍♀️😅😅 About the RPG stuff, I I understand the point you were trying to make now.. you meant as in turn based RPG, having to wait for the game to allow you to attack. But I’d also say stat management and character building, build optimizing, having tons of choices for how to customize your player character and gameplay experience has been a defining characteristics of the RPG genre and have long roots in the genre going back to the D&D days even before video games. And AC has always blended those particular RPG elements with action gameplay from the start. Hence I described it as action RPG. Now ya Gran Turismo (lmao) and every game under the sun it seems lately unnecessarily tossing in RPG mechanics def doesn’t make them RPGs. But action RPG has been a legitimate subgenre of RPG for decades, with well defined characteristics, and I’d argue the AC series has fit those characteristics from the get-go with AC1 in ‘97. AC1 was an outgrowth/fleshing out of ideas From Soft had explored with their previous 3 action RPG King’s Field games, I feel. And I’m pretty sure I’ve read devs of that first game even expressing that in an interview I read, but I couldn’t find the source, could be I’m imagining it. But to me it’s pretty clear when you look at the evolution of their gameplay ideas from King’s Field to Armoured Core. Anyways back to AC6. My big hope is that they at the very least pump out some serious balance patches soon. Kuz rn I’m just having to avoid using a whole swath of weapons and build varieties to avoid the lame no skill OP shit. That’s my personal biggest complaint so far with the game. Super lame. We’ll see in the coming weeks 🙏🙏

@@micshazam842 ya I agree, for me the sim aspects, although very light, have always been just managing your mechs various parameters. But I totally agree I’d want them to be more on the sim end too.

I've never actually played titanfall, I'll have to take a look at it when I go through other mech games :-)

Thank you very much my dude!

No it doesn't, because AC5 is the most directly comparable game to the subjects I am talking about. 5 proceeds 6 and is the game that 6 is reacting off of. You might not like 5, but me liking it doesn't make me ignorant ha. This is that whole fanbase hivemind thing where if you are a REAL fan of armored core, you don't like 5 because it's not 4 or whatever. In reality, 5 has much more in common with the older armored core games than 6 does and it is perfectly natural to compare what mechanics were introduced in 5 that were then dropped in 6. This is like saying if I'm a real street fighter fan, I'll compare street fighter 6 to street fighter 2, and not even mention street fighter 5 because it's not liked by the fanbase. 5 proceeds 6, and it doesn't make me ignorant to prefer walljumps and lack of weapon cooldown.

@TheElectricUnderground it's not a matter of liking or disliking a particular one, my point is that I believe you can't review 6 properly without basing it on the series as a whole, and I'm saying that without playing any other AC other than AC5, your missing the evolution that led to 6. Peace ✌️

Regarding Tenchu, have you looked into Aragami? The first one is considered more authentic than the sequel.

sekiro isnt a tenchu reboot, its a completely different game.

Ha a very talented musician made it actually ;-)

I think the mechanics of AC5 are very cool though, and the examples that I pointed out about the mobility options and lack of cool down on weapons is the right direction for mech combat I think. As to which AC game is the best overall I'm not familiar with the series to be sure about at this point, but I think the mechanics of AC5 have a lot more going on than the mechanics of AC6 and since AC5 was the last installment before AC6, it is a strong point of comparison.

@@TheElectricUnderground as someone who is familiar, AC6 is more like the ps2 era with AC3 than AC5, by a long shot

oh yeah, and poor splinter cell.

oh what an awesome comment!!!! Thank you so much! I do try to really dig into aspects of game design that I don't feel are talked about, so I'm glad what I'm talking about is making sense to you :-)

yes exactly ha. I actually thought the same thing while working on the review, I was thinking, holy crap why is AC5 so over-looked, this game has a lot of really cool level design and the controls are really responsive, I'm gonna have to do a follow up review on AC5 honestly.

I’m on NG+ after S ranking every mission up to that point. I’d be very surprised if any pervious armored core comes anywhere close to the action presented in 6

The flaw of v is mission to long like about 20minute to 30 with check and mid levwl refueling And hope u dont bring wromg type of weapon because it ineffective againts enemy

The obstacle is the parts of the levels before the bosses. It’s not a test of keeping enough for a boss obviously. The levels with resupplies are the bigger ones where it’s entirely possible to run out of ammo and not be able to get to the resupply if you’re not careful.

S-ranks, probably. If you're hardcore and want to S-rank the missions, the ammo limit matters. But if you're struggling with the game and dying a lot, the ammo system is forgiving.

PvP

Like someone else have said, this isn't a game for dark souls enjoyers. It's not a souls-like. The intention is for you to play the game multiple times over; and try to S-rank missions. That's when those seemingly useless limits really start to matter.

yes and I really want to see a current console/pc port of AC5! it's crazy it's still stuck on xbox 360 and ps3

That and its boring pressing r1 to melee every fromsoft game. Boosting around with building sized guns is way more fun.

And that's why you like it, becuase you have never played armored core, true armored core, in fact you aren't playing right now either.

Yes i agree completely.

that's not a fast fall, that's the default fall speed. A fast fall is a specific technique that allows you to accelerate more quickly than the default fall speed. In super mario bros, if you let go of B, your not fast falling. In 5, the game has the default fall speed with boosters (that automatically kick on) and you can, at any moment, manually kick off those boosters to plummet - that's a fast fall. In 6, the game does not allow you to kick off the boosters to fast fall, you can press the booster button all you want, it doesn't allow that to happen. Instead, the game forces the player to do nothing (as if the apm isn't low enough) and your boosters will eventually turn off by themselves and you'll gently drift to the ground. There is nothing fast or strategic about this process ha. Basically what From have done is remove the fast fall option, but since it would be insane to have no way to get back to the ground, they have this cooldown period where if you do nothing, eventually the boosters will turn off and you'll drift to the ground. To call this a fast fall is just completely wrong. The whole point of this mechanic is to prevent a fast fall from existing while still not forcing the player to be stuck in the air. It's like basically me saying "hey, the game removed run from the movement," and your saying: "No, run is still present because you can walk."

@@TheElectricUnderground ok

AC6 is a really solid game and I enjoyed playing it and talking about it, and I agree that it is actually one of my more liked Fromsoft games ha (dark souls gets boring for me pretty quickly). But the thing about AC6 that nagged at me is that I could feel myself being restrained by design choices that I know From did for accessibility reasons. So I had fun and actually cruised through the game without too much difficulty, but I didn't feel that X factor that pushed me to keep coming back. I think it's solid, but too safe. I really hope the follow up is more technical and challenging, that would be a fun review.

Oh yes exactly! Elden ring has a pretty solid open world (in terms of open world games) but it's still not as tightly put together as the older souls games. And then in AC6 it's pretty fairly condensed by modern game standards, but there are still plenty of sections of just boosting over empty ground waiting to get where you need to go.