I’m so glad I found this channel. This is the best traditional tuning content on the internet. You have helped me enormously finally get my longbow tuned with confidence.
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 Yeeeeesssss, I really geek out on this stuff. I figured the spine would be off on one with all that weight variance. It doesn't surprise me that it was the heaviest arrow. That 25 yards was the perfect yardage to do the testing. Just wouldn't have been the same test @ 15 yards. I would however love to see a penetration test @ 15 yards with that consistent black foam. Not only with weight of arrows but diameter also. The 500 spine Blackeagle X-Impact arrows I built a yr ago is more of a compound, not Trad arrow buy they really do bury into my SEVR 21" self healing foam target. I really like that low g.p.i. arrow that has a really high quality carbon with 25+% FOC for not only penetration but stability & consistency. 😮😂🎉
Thanks for recording this and sharing your findings. I'd love to see longer distances and how the heavier arrow drops. As a tradshooter and coach in uk we shoot from 5 yards to 70 yards plus. Most competition distances are 30 to 40 yards. Thanks again
I would second the request to rerun the test at a 26” draw length for us with T-Rex arms. I believe most people over estimate their draw length or short draw at the moment of truth. Great channel!
@Jeff I am 72 years old and just recently started getting interested in archery. I have a Turkish bow and a Chinese Han bow, and have gotten ok with them. But I have recently purchased a Sanlida royal x8 recurve. Jeff I love this bow! I am just starting to get my group better,and plan to get my arrows tuned. Or rather do it myself,as I am on a budget. Love your channel, I've seen many different ones, but you are very easy to understand and, you show what you talk. Thanks for all your instructions. From Florida.
@@tejasmike7659 as long as you want, I almost never unstring mine because I shoot them often and you take a greater risk of twisting a limb during stringing than just leaving it strung inside 👍🏻
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 That makes sense. I heard leaving it strung would weaken the bow, but I think that is more about wooden bows. Thanks, now I won't have to worry about stringing and unstringing my bow all the time. You the man! Keep up the good work!
Loved it. I would love to see the test with shorter draws, such as 26 inches. Powerstrokes make more of a difference than just weight change, I believe.
you really put alot of effort into this demonstration. really cool and interesting. thanx for the effort and sharing it . may your arrows always fly straight.
Hi Jeff, great video! I just realized my draw length is 27 inch like yours when I use the "cheekbone" anchor and after a couple of weeks practice it seems to be a much more consistent anchor and really helped to tighten my left and right shots. and for longer shots it seems to work quite well, such as i really can hit targets at 35 -40 yards which I seldom could before. Thanks for your great content!
Good test. Heavier arrow equals more momentum, quieter bow, and tighter gaps for us gap shooters! Another test would be range error forgiveness. Set sight for 20 yards then shoot at 25 yards with lighter arrow then repeat test with heavier arrow ( resight bow with heavier arrow at 20 yards), and see if arrow stays in kill zone.
Well done! Maybe consider shooting groups of 3 and averaging the performance of 3 identical arrows. Groups of 3 will rule out outlier performances that happen due to things that are unpredictable. Again well done and I absolutely enjoy watching your content!
Jeff, this is a great test. I appreciate you doing it. I have been a traditional bowhunter for the best part of 4 decades. We didn't know nothing about foc are heavy or light. Of course when I started pretty much all arrows were heavy. I have blown through animals with light arrows and heavy arrows. I think part of the "Push" pun intended for heavy arrows and heavy FOC is to get a closer point on with the 3 under and fixed crawl crowd. I have shot through Elk with a sharp 100gr 2 blade on 600 spine arrow. So, as for whitetail it is definitely no issue. I have no idea how many hogs I have killed with my bows. 100's for sure. I am not saying on a marginal hit it might not be better, I am just saying shot placement is key. I would love to get your thoughts on the getting a closer point on. I believe that is the biggest driver in this trend.
Couple things to ponder…I myself shoot hill style bows, recurves, and hybrids all of which are in the 70-80# range. I do this for a couple simple reasons, first reason I’m young (27) and I still can. The second my form is actually better when I shoot heavy bows I actually use my back to draw the bow rather than all shoulder and arm. I get better back tension and cleaner release. That last one is cause I can shoot arrows in 8.5-9.5 GPI range with a flat trajectory and never have to worry about penetration because all my arrows are somewhere in the 620-700 grain range. Now I know not every can shoot an 80# longbow but I just can’t for the life of me figure out why more people don’t shoot 60-65# with a 600-650 grain arrow. I feel like most modern trad archers shoot in the low 40s then beef up the arrow to 500-600 and then are scared to shoot anything over 15 yards because the arrow has so much drop to it. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have the best of both worlds?
For a hunting setup I’m with you. Short distances and impact energy needed. I’m shouting 3D tournaments and here we go up to 60 yards with a trad bow. I had to change to a lighter setting to have not too much drop. I came from a spine 500 with 130gn in front to a 700 spine with a 80gn point. Finally I have about 240gn arrows. With my #44 on the fingers I have around 6gpp and 196 fps. So it’s adapted for my use, and not for hunting. Would be nice to see the same test at 60 yards. Shoot straight. 🙏
@@kirkglundal4289 Yes. 🙂 I Shoot a Shrew Bow, they have no minimal weight for arrows mentioned. You can look at some videos here from Thomas Brugger, he shoots a 130lbs Shrew with arrows that are about the same weight. The bow stays quiet and has no hand shock. My bow also weights only 0.6 kg (mertic 🙂)
I've done this with a chronograph and rate of fall calculator. Ditto! Time to target concerns for hunting under 20 yards can also be put to rest. We sure do worry too much about minutia.
I just did this today. Best I could tell, I went from a 620 gr down to a 570. Hit the same at 15 and 20 yards, and seemed to drop about 2 inches less at 25 averaging multiple shots. If you want to go with a lighter set up, just going from 450 gr to 500 gr can have a dramatic effect on penetration.
Very interesting...and the bow is quieter because more energy is transferred to the heavier arrow... Not wasted on vibration.? Makes sense to use a grains per pound arrow that uses energy more efficiently, especially for hunting. Not heavy enough to lose much speed though. ❤ Thanks.
Great video jeff 😊I think after seeing this test I'm gonna put 200 grain field points and practice with more confidence 👍 knowing it's not the arrow weigh making a difference it's me doing something wrong
What we are seeing is a 10 grain per pound arrow is less efficient than a 12 to 14 grain per pound arrow. The bow transfers more energy with a heavier arrow therefore the drop is minimized.
@@tomburrows3608 Exactly! I believe there’s a happy medium somewhere for most traditional bows around the 500-550 grain mark that will get the job done and not cost you in speed and trajectory 👍🏻
The faster the arrow flies the less time it will take to get to the target and therefore will drop less. The drop is directly, and geometrically, related to the time it spends being accelerated by gravity. Bow efficiency and arrow speed are related but it's quite possible to have more energy transferred to a heavier and slower arrow than a lighter and faster one. The slower arrow will drop more before it gets to the target. Physics. Aerodynamic drag differences caused by the fletching, shaft diameter and finish, point shape, etc and arrow speed, will also have an effect. A draggy arrow will drop more. It'd be interesting to see the math on this.
@@grejen711 That is part of the story however the lighter the arrow is the faster it will shed it's velocity while a heavier arrow will not so much. Like Jeff has said you need to find a happy medium.
Great video. I know it will be different for different bows of the exact same poundage……..but it would be interesting to see the actual drop from a given arrow weight at 10 yards, 15 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards. So set it up where a say 550 grain arrow is dead on at 10 yards, then move the target back incrementally to 30 yards keeping the bow locked in at the 10 yard dead on. Then you have a true trajectory for a given arrow weight and bow poundage.
Great setup and test! I hit where I’m looking just as accurately with my 450’s and 650’s. About a 5 inch group with 6 arrows in a mixed quiver. More people need to know they can stack up some high FOC weight and be as accurate and more lethal.
First year trad hunting, your videos have helped tremendously! 500 warriors, TAW 470 with 225 up front tuned out perfect. I like the speed but worried about being under 500 grains. Should I be worried? Hunting whitetail & hogs in Oklahoma. Thanks for all the info!
Interesting video and thanks for putting it together. I have always considered 10 gpp as hunting/heavier weight. I was surprised you didn't include arrows at 8 & 9 GPP for this test.
Love the physics and no BS. So much nonsense on arrow weight especially with compound guys - just opinions. Many try to make out the drop is measured in feet. This is why I shoot 550-600 gr arrows. The sweet spot for me.
@@african7498 man yea! I shoot 480-500 grain arrow out of my compound with one pin set at 25 yards and can literally hit anywhere from nothing to 32 yards dead on and barely float the pin a touch high at 40 so no it’s not a matter of feet only an inch or two way out but nothing different at all with normal hunting ranges!
Excellent test..! Don’t think I ever saw this done with a trad bow. As some of the other posters mentioned, I’d be interested in the results with a shorter draw length. Thanks..!
I dont know what you get for wind where you're at, but a demonstration of heavy arrows vs light in wind would be interesting. Living in the west, 30+ yard shots arent uncommon, but id sooner deal with drop in trajectory than wind deflection.
@@trainrecked it may be a little more depending on your actual poundage and what’s weird is that I draw only 27” and can shoot about any arrow weight at 20 yards instinctive and never notice any difference at all between them!
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 I should had mentioned my 2 bows i shoot at my draw length are 40 #and 45#. And I just checked, and your right on the money my heavier arrows not any different at 20 yds..I will try out to 30 yds just to see, Thanks again.!
Great video!!! No concern shooting a deer out to 25 yards with 550-600 grain arrows out of a 45 lb bow.. If target shooting out to 40 yards with a heavy arrow would not be for me.. I still like my 10-12 grain per pound arrows for hunting. I have never seen a big difference in penetration with a high foc light arrow but my heavy grains per inch arrows and 175 grains up front really barried into the target.
Love it. Thanks for doing all these videos I am pretty new to traditional. I am set up for split finger and was thinking of trying three under. Do I have to change anything with my knocking point or anything?
👍 I’d love to see you repeat the test at 20-yards I reckon most of the arrow drop occurs in those last few yards. Who knows, at 20-yards they may all be within 2-inches of each other
A live deer will easily drop that much in the time it takes the heavier arrow to get there resulting in the same point of impact on the deer as the lighter arrow.
the arrow wars are the same as the tone wood wars with guitars no matter what we show or prove there will still always be people that never believe even what they see or have had proven to them, i know for myself tone wood is a joke for the most part , when it comes to arrows i know there is a difference in length and eights and such so you have shown for sure some great results and the machine does remove the human error alot so congrats for giving a better then the rest that just like to shoot jello and gel blocks
Very Interesting Test Jeff, I love to do tests of all kinds. Now I have one question: Why not do a test with this machine, on Feathers? What is the best set up with feathers outdoors? Is it 4 inch feathers, of 5 inch feathers( all with 3 feather arrows)? Or, 1inc feathers with a 4 feather arrow? I understand that smaller Feathers have have less impact when it comes to Wind, Im thinking of turkey feathers, not vanes. As I understand for indoor shooting its better with bigger feathers, than outdoor Please give it a shot, when you have time, preferable with wooden arrows on a Longbow Thanks for a great Video
Try 390 grain most of what we get from the shops at 28.5 shaft to shaft are 390 grains before adding more FOC or wraps .. then start going heavery arrows then you see a better result in the real world i started with 390 grain eastons at 50 lbs on my compound then ordered in chinese full wrap arrows that weighted 520 grain total and the drop was really nasty then i resited and added 8 more lbs now the 520s hit bang on and then 390s fly right over the target so cant use the 390s anymore if i want to keep using then 520s
I agree, my hunting set up is 600 grains 26% FOC out of 46.5 lbs @ 27 inch draw and they hit about 3 inches low compared to my buddy’s arrows that are 450 grain out of the same bow same draw at 23 yards
My hunting arrows are 700 grains. I shoot 20 yards maximum. I hunt elk so I want a heavy arrow for the penetration. The 700 grain arrows don't seem to shoot any different out of my 45 pound longbow than the light arrows do out of my old 1970, 70 inch Bob Lee Wing recurve bow that is 35 pounds. Shooting instinctive, it seems that it doesn't take much time at all, maybe a dozen shots, to be dead on going from light to heavy. At least that is my experience.
The real world results may be even better than this test shows. Consider the heavier arrows are not tuned to shoot w this bow. Had they been tuned, they would prob absorb the energy better, and get a flatter trajectory yet!
I noticed that the arrows started going to the right. Is that because as they go up in grains they get stiffer? Was the only thing that changed the field point? Or were the shafts heavier too? Thank you for making this video by the way it is a great learning tool
@@edgarmoreno8229 no sir it was a very slight riser torque in the shooting machine , I didn’t have it strapped tight enough but it still showed the trajectory difference for me 👍🏻
I’m trying to figure out my arrows I’m drawing 43 lbs at 29 1/2” galaxy sage 62” currently shooting a 400 spine carbon legacy 31” with 100grain insert and 175 grain Simmons head. 9.3 gpa. 4” feathers. They are flying ok. But all arrow charts say I should shoot a 300 spine?
@@rbyum6254 I do sometimes but I honestly prefer the carbon mainly because I really like the lighter shafts with heavier point weights they just perform so well for me and they never bend lol.
45# 600 grain 700 grain slow moving arrow deer hears ya draw ... make for a bad shot ..whitetail pretty quick arrow pretty slow... whats the best hunting weight? fastest sufficient?? the best hunting setup?? varies depending on what a guy is hunting. cya mr jeff
i hunted compound over 20 years whitetail;s never happened but i guess it could. i just know at 30 yards his test fall to crap leaving you with a 450 and 500ss grain being your most sufficient at 30 yards with enough keg to do the job.
@@unknown-archerall things archery does a test on this. The lighter,faster arrow can sometimes have more penetration. Guess that's what learning and experimenting is about. Minimizing wasted energy through noise/ vibration, maximizing energy to the arrow.
30-35 yards id bet your 600 700 flop like a rock and you can bet a 200 inch bucks steps out at 40 yards im shooting my 450s and 500s out of my 50# 60# and my 70# bow... ill take the shot...but ground hunting is a totally different ball game then tree stand hunting and a elk is twice the target size of a whitetail...depends on what your after.. nice video thanks mr jeff
Not many traditional archers shoot past 20 and really most compound shooters don't either especially for whitetail deer. Like jeff said at the average distance trad archers it doesn't matter. A heavy arrow penetrates better and is also a lot quieter. He isn't giving his opinion he is clearly showing the results of the test.
@@a.j.taylor4401 yes i know but slower the arrow more likely a deer jump string...even at 20....best sufficient allot of depends.. what big game ect... but yes i know jeff testing drop grains at 25 yards..good info for can shooting... not so much for hunting
@@a.j.taylor4401 my average was 25 to 35 yards on whitetails ..its hunting to each there own...and depends what bow you have what game you hunt ect...but nice video jeff did on droppage at close range
The thing about heavy arrows is that there are more variables than you show . 1. People don’t pay attention to distance. They’ll figure if there’s not much difference at 20 then its same at 30, 40,50….. now there is a big problem!! 2. People think they can blow through anything with heavy arrows. So they suck at shooting and hunting because they never learn how to shoot and never learn where to shoot and never care to learn animal behavior so they know when to shoot. 3. Your test is fine for traditional bows. What percentage of bowhunters are traditional? And what percentage of those have been hunting for many years ( as compared to compound). They have experience and patience. This information should not be given out without disclaimers. I can kill the same animals you do with a 650 gr arrow with a 400 gr arrows and I would argue i will have less wounded deer . Heavy arrow guys are being very irresponsible in passing on information.
Like to add here . Don’t mean any disrespect to you . Appreciate the work you did here . All the above being said . I’ve been hunting for 30+ years and i can count on 1 hand the # of shots ive taken beyond 30 yards. Most of my kills are under 20 yards ( treestand in Missouri) have 3 bucks total score over 580”. And all three killed at under 15 yards. I think heavy arrows are great if that’s your thing( but not necessary) , but the skill of hunting should be top priority along with tremendous respect for the animals we hunt.
600 700 grains slow arrow 45#..whitetails allot quicker then a target. after all its not target shooting its hunting.. alert deer 45# 600 700 grain guys drew back deer hears ya draw.....hunting
