Don't worry. I'm sure enough people will bitch about it eventually until everything gets so easy, they can burn their way to the end so they can complain full-time about lack of endgame, not realizing that getting there WAS the game.
@@Heretic451 This is what the Ashes Community is here for. To tell Sir Steven and his mighty Crew to *"NEVER"* give in to the People whininga and nagging forever to make the Game more easy.
@@Heretic451 Well said. Thankfully Steven is one of us. He wants a game that takes a lot of time to get to end game. The other cool thing is that you can group up a bunch of level 10's and take down lvl 20's. That gives the world a much better feel, because we aren't lvl locked into specific areas no matter what.
Why do people think casuals don't like to grind? The actual thing casuals don't like is to waste their time. So as long as Intrepid can find a way to make the game fun from start to finish, then casuals will play. I personally like both old school and new school games and we need the variety.
Its both true and false, because esentially casuals arent a homogenic group of people. I consider myself as one, I loved wow vanilla back then but never got to max level content and didnt care, I didnt play much of others mmos, but I love the idea of an mmo because i love immersion and social content, also I love RP. I love for a mmo to feel like a plausible world, and therefore I love real grind levelling phase most, because it tells a story : the peasant becomming a strong soldier. Next to that, I dont play that much at video games, and I wont ever want to be the better anything in a mmo nor in other games. I dont even understand the attract to that tbh. Mmos wont ever be greatest at gameplay, because they are too much things in the same time, while a MOBA or a FPS is only made of gameplay.
Because casuals play about 2 hours a day according to statistics, maybe even less. If you told them to do the same dungeon or whatever else 20 times repeatedly, most of them wouldn't even entertain the thought of doing that. A grind is something by definition that takes a considerable amount of time and effort, which are two things that casuals don't have. Don't believe me? Just check achievement statistics for an mmo on steam. Most people don't even bother to level to cap.
Folks are very often pointing out that it takes a long time to progress....and I know it's a topic as old as MMOs at this point, but can we, maybe, just once in the last 20 years....have that? Maybe people will learn to enjoy the fact that they can still be progressing years into the future as a casual player? I'm personally sick and tired of MMOs where you progress so fast the devs can't possibly keep up with content, and then you inevitably run out of things to do and end up switching games or leaving forever. I'm no power gamer anymore - I've come to terms that I'm a casual player now. But that doesn't mean I want everything to be fast. If the game is fun, I am super happy to log in and just grind mobs with a group, be it PUG or friends, to get a little bit of progress, just to do it again the next night, the next week, the next month.....slowly working toward something. I don't need a dopamine jolt every 5 seconds to keep me playing....I just need a good game with a good world and mechanics that incentivize connecting with other people. Because, y'know, it's an MMO.
The sad part is that people want long peogression in products they already play or played long term before.not new products. The trust the progression wont be whored out to the casual with a paid boost or a nerf of exp required just isnt there anymore. I realize i play ragnarok online because i can choose a private server with exp rate thats very low. And as thats the appeal of the server as opposed to other servers that have lets say 100x faster leveling i trust the server will stay respecting its progression speed. Because even if there was demand for a faster server expressed within that community they would simply launch another server instead of speeding up the current one.
People like MMO for grindy, you work towards something, thats what AoC seems to be trying to bring back, everything now is just a theme park ride for a while then switch to a new ride doesnt matter if you miss anything. MMO meant people could focus on things not just the end game highest dps or best in slot sword. People like being traders, farmers, miners, focusing on things they enjoy to provide the community. Which might not get you the best weapon but you could be the best blacksmith in the region and known for it, recognise the character and such. These are the things mmos nowadays get soo wrong, this is why NW had such high hope but they just dont have a clue
That's why I like AoC, the grind seems fun without (hopefully) ways to buy progression in the game with real money. I can't wait for the Beta to really get a full grasp of what the game is going to be like.
This is a risky strategy. You need money to continue maintaining the game and add content. To get money, you need casuals and money whales. To get them, you need dopamine shots. And I aint seeing much dopamine in slow grind. Its there, but it takes a long while to get there. That is why it will be tricky to get people to stay longer and play on a regular basis, based on this gameplan. Otherwise they just leave, with the feeling of boredom. Sure, people can talk about different scenarios and stuff, but how many of them will be actually playing? I hope they make it, but it will be tough.
I like grindy. My only issue is that im not only indecisive but i like playing everything or at least trying it out and seeing what its like. So when you are stuck with your decisions for your class, it sorta bums me. I understand it however.
I was very satisfied with my time i had to play this weekend. Made it to lvl 11, did gathering and crafting, met some ppl I formed a guild with, my guild lead won mayor of joeva. The ppl that arnt happy with the game seem to be wow players. The ppl like myself who could play the current version of the game forever and be happy are lineage 2 players. We haven't had a game to play in over a decade. Don't take this away from us
It feels like its basically children verses adults here. You have the older crowd who like actual good well designed games that take their time and are not mobile type game instant gratification flashy lights that children have been trained and brainwashed to want due to Fortnite, among us and fall guys. Three very bad games that real gamers who like actual good games would never really play seriously. But Children love them.
Thanks for reviewing Jay. It will certainly be interesting to see how the game develops from this point on. I've played MMOs since 2001 and my favourite so far has been the early days of WoW and New World. A blend of both would be my ideal game, but who knows if that can exist in 2020+
I mean long grindy MMOs aren’t for everyone. But if Old School RuneScape can consistently keep 80-140k concurrent at any given day of the week I think that speaks volumes for people that enjoy “the grind”. Just remember, 92 is half of 99 :)
in runescape you dont need constant group of 8 to exp to 10 lvl :) witotu ability to solo level and if this will not be casual friendly in some way, it will be hard to keep players up
@@Sinedko Very true. Although if they find a way to make grouping effortless, even without friends or a guild, it might be very successful and perhaps even more rewarding.
While i agree, however OSRS is a unique blend of nostalgia, can run on ancient hardware, and a lot of the population is in south america as well as it has a crap ton of bots. That said i do think theres a decent enough of an audience for this game. I think the population could be between classic wow and osrs population but it depends on how the perception bounces back and how non streamers enjoy it at launch. It could do better who knows? Long grindy mmos are more appealing when you play them at the start too when everyone is new and people arent too ahead.
The slow, grindy, archaic gameplay from 20 years ago (but polished and refreshed) that you're referring to ; is EXACTLY what I miss and been waiting for. For me these are all pros. But I wouldn't grind an alpha either, waiting for release. (ps: casuals are welcome but they are not the target audience.)
@@maofria1452 Nothing to do with Nostalgia, apples and oranges, it's about different taste. You're welcome to be a casual microtransaction cash-shop snowflake lover ; but leave my favorite type of game and game design alone, and get lost.
You are still mistaking casuals for instant gratification andies. There is a huge difference and if it isn’t obvious to you, you are ignorant. Educate yourself
Pretty good feedback. They're certainly trying to cater to those of us that want some of the older style mmos features back (like a longer levelling journey, group play, more focus on the world and less hand holding) but they have to get the balance right. I'm sure things will tune in as the alphas progress.
Didn't they already say multiple times that this test was mainly for stability and performance? And also that plan to release wayyyy more content over the test (quests, events, etc) that's beyond just grinding?
I hope you are having fun in there. I look forward to playing this game in 4-6 years. Hopefully it isn't too late for this MMORPG by then but fingers crossed. The world needs a "great" MMORPG again.
Thanks God for slow leveling! Also imo there is a difference between soulrss but beautiful mmos and "ugly" but with soul mmos. TL looks great but souless at the same timr
I really don't understand why people praise slow leveling so much here. I remember playing 9 Dragons back in 2009 on a double XP weekend, grinding 3 hours straight, and only getting 30% of the exp I needed to reach level 48... I state again, it was a double XP weekend... what is there to miss about stuff like this?
@@allthatishere because the journey should be enjoyable and fun! If your leveling experience is not fun and needs to be "dealt" with then the game is bad. Current mmos you outlevel areas so fast it is just sad. Heck you can get to max level in new world in 18 hours straight rushing main quest... And this game has awesome leveling experience which many players won't see then. If you don't like it? Sure don't play it
Define "souless". I can understand some other eastern games have not set the best example like BDO in which they would feel "souless" but saying TL is the same to me is uncalled for and unfounded. The game has really unique appeal and progression system, innovative integration of PvE and PvP elements, immersive diaolgue, a modern look and take on the tab target genre of mmo.
@@wander1027 I can't really explain it. TL looks amazing but the world still feels genetic and souless. Sure UE 5 is a good engine. But still just generic. A bad painting from a small child would envoke more feelings from me then a pro painting a painter did without any inspiration!
@@dannyp9210 no, EVE has bots because its a very simple game and because u need to farm like crazy. You clearly never played EVE - its not popular at all.
@@seveneternal7988 Regardless, EVE is still alive after 20+ years (just as D2). That is impressive. Classic WoW Era has many bots as well. People say that version isn't really popular either. Servers with few players don't really have bots, while the mega-servers have a lot of them (though the GDKPs etc. incentivize gold buying too).
What mmo is casual / solo friendly that meets your criteria tho ? It might be just that the MMO genre is not your cup of tea. I was thinking like that for a while until I accepted the fact that either I enjoy the grinding procees or I should just not play an MMO.
Talking about PvP at 8:30; I was in the Alpha test, and I did experience very minor PvP and initially it was off putting. That is, because I hadn't expected it and honestly didn't read up on the system. So yeah, I was on my horse, just finished some mining and questing and was returning home. All of a sudden I was on fire, figuring a rare/elite mob had a fire spell. I died quickly (as a Cleric) also because I didn't know to fight back. I thought I could run the mob off. The last thing I saw was a red player name, which I now know was a corrupted player. When I respawned, I found that they looted some of my resources that I harvested. I was pretty pissed, to be honest. Then, I read into the system. So as you said, players become corrupted when attacking a "non-combatant", and if they kill enough people they begin to become weaker. Stats go down, and they are more vulnerable. They also become visible to bounty hunters (not sure if this system is in yet), and I believe are KoS (kill on sight) to guards. They will have to work off the corruption by leveling up and doing PvE actions. Now that I know more about the system, you have to learn not to carry too much at once. Don't travel alone. Fight back if the odds aren't too stacked. I believe all of these systems are meant to be a more fair system while appeasing PvP'ers without losing the PvE'ers, and encouraging social play. All in all, I am starting to warm up to it, and I look forward to getting into a guild and try to travel with other players next weekend.
I think it's been said many times by many people, this game is not going to be casual. Will Steven/Intrepid change their minds on that, so far taking Steven at his word that would be a resounding No. They want this game to be difficult, they want it to be painful when you die, they want there to consequence to your actions and I personally hope that doesn't change. This game is not going to be for everyone. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement but that's why we're here in Alpha 2. I think the next 7 months will be telling as we head towards phase 3 in May of next year. I would expect some slippage because games are hard to make but as server stability improvements happen and more systems come online we'll be able to get a better feel for where we're actually heading and roughly when that might be. I'm thinking 4 years if we're lucky, 5 would be nice but 6 is probably more realistic (all depending where we are next May) Another thing to consider is that true Alpha's , which this is, are never done like this. They're usually hidden from the public for the very reasons we're seeing in a lot of chats and comment sections. Looking forward to testing in 2 weeks when I join in Wave 1, man it's gonna be a long two weeks...Great vid as always.
The one thing I never agreed with from a subscription mmo dev's perspective is making death painful and punishing. Why would you egregiously punish your players who are paying to play your game on a monthly basis? The mantra should be "Whatever keeps them enjoying and playing our game". Punishing death mechanics are antithetical to that. They should be focused on making the experience with as few potential quitting points as possible.
I have 4 buddies playing in this alpha and 3 out of the 4 felt underwhelmed. Basically have said “generic world with mediocre tab target combat”. Essentially, they were expecting more after 8 years in development.
Seeing the untailored and raw gameplay from other people is a big eye opener that they have almost nothing. It's been nearly a decade since they announced the game, and this is all they had.
I think loads of people prefer longer/grindier mmo's. Even the casuals. Although the implementation can be difficult? There should be balance: Long grindy bits for that long term dopamine progression, but also fun challenging non grindy gameplay to escape the big grind. If the game is solely based on grinding, it will die eventually. But if there is fun shit to work towards, players will stay engaged. (cough, OSRS, cough)
Yup, as long as the grinding itself is fun (especially incentivizing social interaction), slow progression can be great. And that's what I'm saying - casual doesn't mean flying through content crazy fast even as a casual player. Casual doesn't mean we want the game to be over after a few weeks. I'm not entitled to getting to 50 first; I don't care about that at all. I care about the journey being fun for, hopefully, years to come. At my own pace.
Niche MMO players have been waiting for that old feeling but modernized fo 20 years now - and trust me there are lot of us. Just see the queue times on alpha game that costs 120$ just to get in.
This. I don’t think people realize there’s a large group of players who want a more open world, sand boxy hardcore mmo to feel immersed in. I like some theme park MMOs but they don’t give you that sense of adventure the old games did
grinding games are not fun unless your chilling with people and just having fun being a bit social. running around franticly trying to cap as many mobs as possible to get xp as fast as you can when the game is geared to be slow is a boring grind.
A slow fun well designed grind feels like a return to form back when we all used to like games being released in general instead of 90% of game releases being a bad game that deserves bad reviews that they have had to pay people to get good reviews or cater so hard to children they defend it because they have been trained to defend it. We used to live in a time where devs were forced to make good quality games or their studio failed and shut down. So every game release was something to look forward too. A return to that would be amazing haha.
Hey Jay, I got a question. But let me preface it like this: I love slower paced leveling. My most favorite MMO of all time was Asheron's Call and it required an obscene amount of time to hit the level cap of 126. The XP limit was based on being just below the maximum for a 32-bit integer, in fact I never reached it and I had over 10k hours in the base game from 1999 to 2005 when the expansion increased the level cap to 275. My question is are there a lot of skill points attribute points to use at the beginning of the game or do they come as level ups? The reason why I ask is even though AC had long leveling times the core of your build functionality comes online by level 50 which was 24-36 hours of game time which was manageable. I don't want to say the skill points after were filler and not build defining because they weren't. I have to imagine if they are not then grinding for 100 hours+ and still not having a functional defined build is horrible IMO.
There will be more POI's as nodes grow and evolve, and also its early alpha, so the world will likely get a bit more filled in. I love that there are peaceful areas to gather. The super cool thing is that the best gathering for better materials will end up being in areas with high lvl mobs because casual gatherers will avoid that area so things will grow a lot more.
i'd love to play a slow paced mmo again. Thanks for testing out the alpha, can't wait for it to be released one day. So in the mean time, i'd like to thank all of the current and future testers for testing out the game and making it complete on release day.
Like others, I have played MMOs where it took months to reach maximum level, even being very active everyday (and it was fun: it was not just a grind). The reality is that it is not fun to be done with your progression in only one week, so designers need to hold their ground over the quick gratification some call for. Some games even took over a year (I am thinking about Darkfall), but maybe that one was too much. // THAT SAID: I would agree the core gameplay and fun should not be progression and it is fine if folks max their characters in about two months or so of "normal playtime" (?).
There needs to be something between "tedious grind- and gankfest for hard-core players" and "care-bear land for casuals" I don't wanna go back to DAoC ages of just mindlessly grinding the same mobs for 100 hours just to reach max level. That doesn't mean that i want to be taken by the hand and gifted 10 levels for clicking once. But for AoC i feel like the PvP part will be the deciding factor. Ganking some guy MUST come at a price and the plans they sketched a few years back had too many ways to make that cost irrelevant.
Corruption keeps nonconsensual pvp in check. If you kill someone you go red. There's 5 levels of corruption and you get increasingly weaker and can drop your equipped gear. It only takes about 4 kills to go stage 5 red. They basically want corruption to be a "wanted" mechanic. If you are ganking you're shooting yourself in the foot.
I think there is a sizable playerbase that wants the grindy older style mmo just with updated graphics and systems. Ashes may give that but alot of younger mmo players that only really played new world or BDO will be turned away. Steven was an ArcheAge player, so i fully exspect this game to be more open and sandboxy than wow for ffxiv standing around queuing for dungeons .
1) XP Tax and drop on death. I think this is good, it's a solid stick against players who want to fling themselves at a challenge over and over again hoping they beat it, really puts approaching a challenge you're maybe not prepared for in a different light. It means you don't push out from civilization TOO much, because the run back will be awful. 2) Empty Landscapes. Keep in mind, this is a game where nodes level up from Wilderness>Outpost>Village>Town>City>Metropolis (or something), there needs to be space for material gathering, player housing, and for areas to expand and grow. 3) Mindless Farms. A lot of MMO hounds will explicitly, and ONLY go for the most effective route to peak, and so long as there are actual things to do that generate value and are fun, I don't think most players will sit and farm a single mob. Optimizing the fun out of your experience is your choice, but it is still on the game to make 'fun' an actual alternative. 4) When Will It Be Out? This has always been the risk of an open development game. Steven bet on repeat advertising to draw people in to fund the development and not have to use his own money, but a decade to develop an MMO is nothing special. It is likely to 'snowball', where development seems to accelerate toward the end, once all the systems are in place and it's just a question of plugging in new maps and enemies, but anybody who's claiming development should be faster knows literally nothing about game development.
An mmorpg can please both the casuals and the hardcore players, it has enough room to include multiple separated systems that blend together only in the bigger scheme. It is a matter of good design and the moral intergrity to give the best loot/powers only to the hardcore players, even if it means that a % of the casuals will perceive it as unfair and this could cause money loss
The grind isn't currently a problem for me. There is a massive issue in that tier one materials for crafting armor or weapons are extremely rare. Making gathering weird because you arent really working towards anything in harvesting or mining otherwise.
AOC trying to bring the oldschool mmo which was grindy and many people loved and really missed. The new games are too easy and in 40 hours you hit max level and do things for you gear. But that is not a journey. Is a battle who will get that level first and who will become the strongest. Many people play mmo for the ride. To discovering areas and new people to play with. They do not care about fast leveling or best gear. The just care to be a group with others and enjoy the ride. Maybe AOC is not the game for you but still the game is not too grindy as you describe it compare it with oldschool mmo. I wish it had more grind but AOC team think all people and trying their best to release something that actually everyone can love and enjoy
1:59 If they made tags count for everyone, it would *gasp* improve community behavior and remove one stress point for which toxicity can form. 6:21 They need to yoink radiant dynamic events like GW2 has, it's such a great system to break up the monotony of going from one quest to another. 7:09 Another point, is this people's limited time do they want to play a game with a long grind or play half a dozen other games that aren't. Or maybe even just prioritize games that have built up in their steam libraries that they haven't gotten to yet. 8:00 Speaking of casuals, technically everyone falls into the casual category since no one goes full tryhard 100% of the time. Otherwise they run into burnout or get too far ahead of their friends. The games going to need casual friendly systems for downtime and if it doesn't have them then I don't see it surviving in the long term. 9:00 Ew, forced pvp in an MMO is not going to be liked by the majority of players. Casuals want to casual, pve players want to pve, and anything that acts as a stress point will be a heavy point on contention with the limited time people have. Anyone remember when class wow first released that phase 2 dropped and world pvp turned into a cancerous shit fest where flight points were camped and progress of any kind fell to a standstill. 9:30 Death pain points is going to be an issue for many people. As dying in an of itself results in you losing time in regards to achieving your goals. And having these penalties on top of it is going to be a slap in the face that many won't put up with.
I'm glad it moves slowly. It seems they are building for longevity. People can't resist the compulsion to race to 50. Could you have gone to a node in alpha?
For me, the old style of grinding mobs is just up my street, i remember playing Daoc back in the days and i loved the fact that you needed a group to help lvl quicker (took me almost a year to get a lvl50), same goes with EQ. T&L levelled to quickly then the grind is to get the gear which just feels horrid, id rather grind to lvl and craft to make gear, a good old style mmo. In New World, ppl just grinded board quests to lvl, again it was quick but there was no social aspect to it because of it. About the grind, because everyone is at a low lvl, no-one knows what it would be like if a high lvl would kill high lvl mobs and the lower lvl players would get a massive boost of xp (basically power levelling), if PL was in the game it wouldn't be so bad, it just takes time to get there for ppl to start PL. When ppl realised how to lvl fast in Daoc it became quicker to lvl alt toons. Yes its a test not a game, im sure graphics, combat and levelling will all get some love in the future but they want to test what's out there atm before doing those little things.
Thanks man, great video as ever, love your stuff and really good, balanced take on the A2 release. I've been playing this for about 3 weeks now, it's been brilliant to get a glimpse of the direction it's going in. It seems clear to me that May next year will be when we get a much better idea of how far off the game actually is. At that point we'll have all the classes and all the content they intend on releasing and the servers will be open 7 days a week. I think this period of time is very much about stress testing and breaking the game to make sure they have the resources to deal with complications further down the line. They have been very good at fixing problems quickly so hopefully we see exponential improvements over the 6 months or so and we have something really interesting to get into.
I'm not the biggest fan of grinding just like someone doesn't like to build their house but the memories, the growth and the fruits of your labor make it so much better than 3 hours of gameplay and you're now the strongest character in the game. Obvious sarcasm but you see the point. You notice the ones who have put in the effort. I'm saying this as someone who is only going to have a few hours a week to play.
Just spend 599.99 on the next early access pack and the game will be out in 2031, this attempt to control the narrative, we can see the asset flip of the game infront of us.
ngl I like that gathering and crafting takes a massive amount of dedication, on top of being limited in the number you can take to Apprentice and upwards. Complete opposite of New World, where it was relatively fast and you could Grandmaster (100) everything and then some. As for the Adventuring XP grind though, i'm waiting to see how many quests we'll have, on top of the main story quest which isn't out at all atm. Not too concerned though. If I had to absolutely guess, I would say the amount of quest will be half as many as vanilla WoW. So still pretty grindy, but not nearly the current 99% grind we have now.
i personally am a fan of slow leveling. but to cater to the players who like to quick level what they can do is raise the level cap and give players the illusion they are quick leveling
@5:08+ It took you "around about 8 levels to get to level 8" eh? Fancy that! lol. I know you corrected it in text later, but that cracked me up haha. Decided not to sign up for the first alpha wave, but love seeing other people's experience of the game. Defs going to come on board at some point later in the game. Keep those vids comin, despite the bugs etc it's defs got me hyped for the game! I love a cosy world, which is half the reason I love MMO's.
I actually don’t think that time to level is that bad. It might just feel bad bc there is a lack of content and fleshed out systems. But on release, it might feel a lot less boring bc there’s more to do other than grinding mobs. Don’t forget about all the horizontal progression systems you will do in tandem with combat
1 hour per level is not bad at all. The leveling maybe is part of the game and you dont have to rush it. All modern MMOs are skipping the leveling making it super fast. WoW Vanilla taught us that the leveling can be part of the journey if it is well made!
the reason OSRS feels great is they understood level scaling , the early levels are extremely easy meant to teach you passively, the later levels take forever its a better design. This game is grindy for the sake of being grindy = not fun ( make it more obvious you're wasting my time )
Good over view. One point which is the reason for the long levelling now is the Alpha 2 Phase 1 doesnt have the questing yet I thought as Phase 1 was just about server performance testing. I thought Phase 2 was where the questing gets added in November?
Mob grinding isn't inherently miserable, it could be fun if they design it properly ... they just need to move away from having people stand in 1 area for multiple hours killing the same mobs over and over. People will grind dungeons in WoW all day long so all they have to do is make the mob grinding similarly enjoyable (force groups to move around a lot, explore different areas, fight different bosses in the open world etc).
The reason games with long journeys to max level went out of style was because player's mindset changed from one where you play the game to have fun, and your character progresses as you do so, to one where you play the game to progress your character, hoping to have fun once you've 'finished'. The winds are changing, and more players have the introspection to realize that they've optimized the fun out of gaming by solving for the wrong objective. Long level times are in keeping with this - mindless/boring grinding is not though. Ideally we get multiple hundreds of hours to max level by having fun.
All the things people are complaining about outside of obvious testing phase issues like desync sound perfect to me. Slow levelling, importance of items/drops, difficult & old MMO feel. The quest thing is bad, but everything else seems great. I wish combat felt like it had impact. Sometimes it feels like they have no weight behind them.
This is not going to be casual friendly. Steven has said that multiple times in streams. some people are ok with grind if it’s worth their time or they feel like there’s enough progression for them. It’s a game that’s made for people who enjoyed the harder core MMOs from then90’s and early 2000’s. There’s def a market for that. I mean heck I was in on a private server for ff11 and it exploded to thousands and thousands of players and they basically pushed it back to be more grindy and not as easy to level up. This game is not for everyone or even for a wide audience. But there is for sure a market for older school MMOs. It sounds like to me you want more theme park type MMOs and that cool but this is a sand park game. With I think more emphasis on the sandbox part. It requires socializing. It requires playing in groups. And games like that, that’s where the best memories came from.
Sure there is a market for those type of players but mmorpg needs a new influx of players to survive and grow..will Ashes get new players and grow or stagnate?
Could there be an argument that there is actually more content completed than we know but they haven't loaded it in to begin with to test systems to not hammer the server and more quests etc will load on over time?
Im not sure what you are talking about games from 20 to 30 years ago are not around? Everquest, world of warcraft, to a lesser extent guild wars and final fantasy... these are all mmos that are at near or over 20 to 30 years old and still played daily just because you dont like it doesnt mean others dont.
Everquest is not popular. WoW retail is completely different. WoW classic is maybe the best counter point but that's not as grindy as this. Ff14 is like 15 years old and all story. GW2 is 10 years old and not really grindy at all. I never played Archeage but they are inspired by that but that's literally dead
@jayoddity guild wars itself came out in 2005... final fantasy yes your are correct but I did say at or near... you obviously don't play private eq servers because between all of them there are probably 1500-2000 concurrent players and then yeas live is a wasteland but everytime a tlp comes out those numbers skyrocket for a while. Not booming by any means but certainly not dead in the water.. also I forgot to mention OSRS which is super grindy and still going strong. Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean it doesn't have a following. There is a reason all of these indy games that are grindy gain a pretty big popularity on launch people are still waiting around for the next great eq like game or wow type to come around again. The problem is instant gratification is a big deal to younger gamers and now we are seeing a shift towards that even on the mmorpg side so we may never see another like the games of old but it doisn't stop indie developers from trying to bring it back.
My understanding is that Intrepid is hiding the story arc. So once the game is in beta then they will release more story arc. That this test was more focused around the killing of monster etc... But no idea
Can’t believe a game needs a decade of development to release. The scoop is maybe a bit too large and some systems could be added in an expansion to be able to see this game released in a decent timelime.
Stephen indicated that leveling should be from 70% questing and 30% from grinding per level. So leveling will be slower than many of the current popular games.
They are nowhere near that ratio and it's been in development for over 5 years. Sure you can just adjust some numbers but I don't think they even know what they want to do at this point.
@@jayoddity I personally enjoy a grindy game but after seeing the mob pathing and behavior yesterday and mobs getting stuck in objects and walls, killing mobs has no rhyme or reason or risk. You could argue that it was server lag but mobs are glitching and stuck constantly which can hurt your exp gain or kiting. It's not always satisfying
For me, it's the sharpness that's off. The landscape looks blurry to me. I don't mind the more realistic artstyle (though it's always way harder to pull off over a more stylized one), but yeah, it needs work.
Yikes! So the gankers can kill you and take the stuff you spent hours grinding for?? No thanks!!! This design will attract griefers and repel regular players...
Curious to see more, but I likely won't expect to see that for quite some time until they refine and get closer to release. But this is progress, and we'll see.
i dont understand why people think mmo's need a decade to make, many of the best games ever made took less than a year to make. this is simply factual. does it take 3 years to design poi's? no. does it take 3 years to design quests? no. does it take 3 years to design chat channels and game modes? no. idk why the general playerbase accepts this only for mmo's
I love the idea of a time consuming journey to max level. Spending a majority of over 100 hour hours killing the same mobs over and over again? Very uninspiring. I hope PvP will be a good way to get EXP if this is the case.
I'm a casual, and I like grinding to an extent. I just don't want to be forced to be grouped all the time to experience the game. Grinding is productive, however spamming looking for a group and then negotiating the plan of action and where to go can be a waste of time.
The character models to me really looked totally different from the archetype presentation. The world looks great. The models just look very PlayStation 3 almost. Maybe it's just me.
You’re actually right. The most vocal people are the ones that want a grindy old school mmo with xp debt and loot loss… the issue is and what I have been saying allot on the forums is those games are all dead mortal online dead and so many others old school mmos are dead because the current market has aged them out. This game needs allot of players to make it work. If he sticks with his vision it will max out at like 5000 players max and that will kill the game. I would ask the people that want this old school style mmo is do you want to play with a few hundred people or millions.
For graphics, it is currently impossible for MMOs (any company) to do AAA single-player graphics. Some of the best are New World, Mortal Online 2 and Ashes of Creation.
Not an MMO for all the singleplayer-instant-gratification andys that don't want to socialize and don't want any risk/reward. For everybody else, this game is very promising.
The only other game that really delivers this for me is OSRS, sure a lot of the content can be done solo, but grouping up just makes way more sense in end game content. Also, not being able to max in 1 month is a big plus for me.
I'm a very casual player and I can appreciate slow progression as long as it's meaningful. I don't like gear grind but I'm ok with a slower leveling pace.
I am okay with slow grinding in a mmo game, but i know some of my friends just like to rush levels, get high level gear and finish endgame in most mmos and leave after a month
My issue is it doesnt feel next gen now and by the time it comes out, itll be old and dated. I hope it does come out but it wont be for me, as a filthy casual. 😂
@@henrifortier8621it looks a bit shitty that’s my opinion. It’s like if RuneScape made New World. That being said I hope there’s a lot more polish but I doubt it.
I played PAX DEI and i really like the slow and steady grind. I feel acomplishment if i can craft new stuff and level my shit. I played this weekend Throne and Liberty and shit means nothing. Iam looking forward to play Ashes once its finished. I dont plan to buy a 100 Alpha key, maybe beta but i dont want an early access experience anymore its getting tedious for me. I can only wish that Ashes will survive and have its loyal playerbase.
It's good to see a youtuber talk some sense as many AoC creators just seem to be blindly in love with this game and its disconcerting. They won't see reason they have just decided to relentlessly support this game but good on them. It's some Narc levels of cope to think the majority of the mmo playerbase will have the patience to play a 90's style mmo with ancient design. But like you said, maybe they can survive on the 5-10% of the mmo playerbase who enjoy not having their time respected.
Kill credit, mob tagging, group loot, sitting to regen in 2024 is so bad. Why must MMO's continue to regress! Why do developers continue to force players to put up with monotonous systems forcing player retention? Some of the core principle and design decisions this game has utilized is borderline mental.
It sounds like the exp for leveling & crafting skills is fine, you shouldn't be able to get max proficiency or max level in just a few hours or even days of playing, its something that does take time. getting from lvl 1 to level 3 in mining in an hour sounds about right, epically if lvl 10 is max level (i didn't get a chance to log in before the Ddos attack this weekend shut the Alpha down. But you would think for an alpha they would boost the exp rates a bit, so people could fully test out the skills functionality.
With this being an Alpha 2, definitely looking solid. I wonder if these systems are one of those things that I want in theory but I’ll hate in practice, but we shall see! I like that they’re doing their own thing and not pay to win.
They might be using XP debt as a way of stopping people just killing themselves as a way of 'fast travel, I died a few times and didnt really notice the XP debt, it went fairly quick and didn't think it was a hindrance (only lvl 9 currently though), might also be a way of trying to stop low lvls jumping into higher lvl grind groups.....if they keep dying then the debt will mount up and be pointless for them. I think a lot of people will like the grind, look at how many games have events / seasons that are meant to last for months but after a couple of weeks people move on (Diablo IV season) People are also forgetting how long it took to max all the skills out in New world in the early days As said, its an Alpha currently and im sure some things will get tweaked/tuned, things like graphics will prob be the last thing worked on (although ive heard if you have a DLSS graphics card it looks much better).
The biggest problem of this game is that its nowhere near being finished. If it takes 3-4 years more to be finished , I can only ask what will be state of hardware than? What will be state of Unreal? Will people be interested still ? It will be pushing 10+ years in development by then... Is 10 years in development even viable for entertainment product ???
(not critzing here, this is purely a geneal comment). Grind is a very emotive word. For those that hate it they imagine mindless hours doing the same thing Generally MMOs have been going "leveling is just a tutortial, the game starts at max", but if they can make the 250 hrs leveling to 50 is the same content (just diff zones, mobs, gear, quests, crafting etc) as you are going to do for the next 250 hrs. Then that's not really "grind". It's going to be a hard think to make work since MMO;ers will optimise the fun out of every system, but if they can get it that even the "I hate grind" plaers enjoy it (which seems possible) then no one will call it "grindy". MMOs work on progression and leveling is just an easy "number go up" hit. If when getting to max the focus isn't on "Need to do 10hrs for next level", but instaead "complete this task. Oooo! Progression! Dopamine Hit!" then you don't notice how long. However, that;s no easy task (and a hard sell even if they do it).
I think i'd disagree on casuals disliking this game. Look at vanilla WoW. I know many players that never made it to 60, or just did a lot of professions stuff and never got to do the endgame raiding even if they did get to 60, and still had a total blast. Compared to the modern experience where you steamroll everything to max level as a god right off at lvl 1 that can never die where everything is bland and meaningless.
The last thing I want is to be able to level to max in like a week.. NO…reason why wow classic was/is and always will be the greatest MMO ever created was bc it was a grind..and every other level seemed like a huge accomplishment. Not to mention really understanding your character and it being a part of you. I get that people today want immediate leveling. Well go play wow retail.. The MMO genre desperately needs a competitor to wow classic. I’m truly hoping the leveling experience is honestly long.
