im only at 1:17 and while i feel based on the title that we MIGHT possibly disagree later, i wanna state my opinion and also state my current agreeance with what your saying being that i think people who think that they wont be able to find ANYONE who wants to team up or feel like they themselves would be PRESSURED into teaming up rather than naturally realizing and understanding that this is a TRUE MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game and not the cheap knock off solo player adventures we have today meaning grouping up into larger groups is the plan anyways really just shouldnt play since there is the good chance they probably actually arent going to be an ashes fan and only joined out of a preconcived notion of mmorpgs based on MODERN 'mmos' and are probably better sticking to what exists now. now with all that being said, i also wanna go on to state further that i dont think even in the worst case senario this will be a problem because to say it encourages you to be in a guild and especially a larger guild i think is a MASSIVE understatement with to start, lets look at the artisan systems to look at what arguably would be the LEAST pvp focus if still if you ask me, one of the MOST social systems a game could have based on how much can be made to go into buy and selling goods and resources to make goods if the devs wanna go for it. for gatherers, one might think being a solo gatherer wouldnt be hard and could be quite easy but that ignores several major factors being bank space, protection, carrying capacity in the field, mobility while gathering and carrying all gathered goods, surveying which is a skill in and of itself to even just find the resources to gather let alone needing to ask others and even perhaps barter with others for info on farming locations as even non gathers might put a price on this for reasons ill explain later, and ability to deal with political issues around farming in any given area as guilds WILL make claims on areas through having players guard them and pvp anyone who tries to farm there and might even employ corrupted players to even kill non combatants who try to hope that the guilds guards wont have the balls to kill em as while griefing is against TOS, you cant argue its griefing when it comes to disputes over territory and resources and this also is why i think there will even be a certain type of guild that crops up not for the reasons people think being corrupted guilds who have their players rotate through the evil jobs where killing non combatants is a possibility or maybe even the entire job especially since i bet while corrupted players will have MASSIVE nerfs against combatants, i bet the skill tree steven mentioned would actually be assassination style buffs and abilities that let them kill non combatants WAY quicker making it so if you dont choose to fight against a corrupted player, your liable to be insta killed and if they are in such a corrupted guild that gets hired for assassinations and shit meaning they have no qualms about murdering you even if they take on more corruption OR you have to flag and fight the non corrupted people from the guild who hired them meaning they stand their with the other guild in a quasi party as insurance against non combatants trying to steal the guilds resources rather than a full fleged member of the party as the real party is there to take out anyone willing to fight for it. now as for what all that means is that you need a lot of money, storage, people to work as protection AND to help with the gathering to do it much faster than if you tried alone with only your own meager carrying capacity, AND you need to have the power to negotiate or fight for land claims to wherever the resources are in highest quanity while also either looking for the next place the resources will move to through the difficult task of surveying OR forking over most if not almost ALL of your profits to get information you cant even know isnt a fake ploy to get you looking the wrong way and drain ya of money and ability to even try to farm resources to stop out the competition by the guilds all meaning that flat out, not being in a guild as a gatherer and not being in the biggest guild you can find is just stupidity..... all that is JUST ONE PROFESSION.... full stop, EVERYTHING is so guild focused that its fair to say that its not a game about players and player choice but more like guilds with each guild being a faction as each nodes guild both big and small fight between the other guilds to carve out their place in the world and reach the top with heavy political and social elements to the point that heavy is itself a understatement of how important its gonna be meaning in one sense it will be a problem but in another, its more like thats just how it is.
now tho i get also that that ALONE would be nothing more than me saying 'get bent' so i will not leave it at that and also go into how on a gameplay and combat front, i dont believe this will be so black and white as firstly, the bigger the guild, the less buffs you get up till the cap where your guild members have NO boost in their abilites meaning a bigger guild only matters for say artisan players and merchants who like i mentioned, need A LOT of people to run all the smaller issues that dont actually require pvping or that boost from smaller guilds and subsequently, in large scale combat against even just 2 small guidls as i remember the guild member cap was 500 i think meaning 2 small guilds of 250 banding together would lead to them having FAR STRONGER members at a base level if everyone in both guilds are running average level builds AND equal numbers meaning the 2 smaller guilds will crush the bigger guild who AT BEST would have better gear MAYBE as these smaller guilds would be contracted out usually anyways but merchant guilds at that max guild cap to do the pvp fighting for them and there might even be pve guilds contracted to do the same for the guilds gatherers when it comes to pve monsters as a method to cut down a bit on costs for monster resources for crafting so as to have had a hand in getting it be the reason for the discount as it also saves the other guild needing to risk as many players loot and more importantly, gear durability and consumable items that all cost money by having this gatherer here to offer their help instead. beyond this, the caravan showcase tho heavily weighted in stevens teams favor so they could show a caravans destruction and show the progression from that point to the node showed that having smaller numbers in regards to the starting like 12 or so stealth archers doesnt matter if you plan an ambush right as even if it woulda been an uphill battle especially if that caravan was at a more average level rather than being the literally bottom tier level, if we say they didnt prepare scouts to find the ambushes and so got caught in one AND couldnt have players who could track them down and stop them from setting another ambush to wear down the caravan over time, it would be the win for the smaller group easily. EVERYTHING is going to come down to knowing LEGIT REAL WORLD TACTICS for warfare as NOTHING pvp is gonna be anywhere near as easy as 'put a lot of bodies on the point' ESPECIALLY because while everyone can specialize hardcore and in fact it would seam can ONLY speacilize due to the heavy trinity system focus, due to the smallest number of your average group size in small dungeons for example being 6 to 8 with me who plans to run a caravansary planning to have the SMALLEST group of players on a caravan being 3 double rogues who specialize in stealth with 2 scouting in the front and one following in the rear all keeping an eye out for approaching players who could be looking to ambush and monsters or roadway obstructions to hopefully avoid delays that could lead to getting ambushed by players OR monsters as the caravan showcase showed roaming worldbosses could be a legit fear especially if you cant move fast enough to avoid them or if say you got pinned between a fallen tree and approaching world boss meaning you have no where to go but past the world boss with than i would have 3 summons with one on either side ready to cast summons that bring in weak summons but multiple of them (think things like the greatshield hawksoldiers or the demi human ashes from elden ring where its techinically ONE summon but brings in multiple weak summons to give you a lot of numbers fast) with than the third being the one driving the caravan who can jump off to summon and than let their summon which would be a 3 slot BIG BOI summon (think things like the mad pumpkin head or taylew again from elden rings roster of spirit ashes) who would serve as the heavy hitter with than 2 double clerics with a hard focus on both healing AND more importantly, ressurection to revive anyone who has died and 2 double tanks to keep those healers alive perhaps even with what i could see being some good passive abilites that let them do things like the guard ability from eso where you tether yourself to an ally with no resource cost BUT you also take 30% of the damage they woulda taken with the morphs i think reducing the dmg you BOTH take or letting you heal when they heal as well. all in all that is a group of 10 as my MINIMUM number i would feel safe sending with on the higher end you get 2 wings of 2 ranger summoners who use falcons to survey from the sides while riding on caravans driven by each sides one double cleric with than 2 double tanks on either side wit the highest level having an extra 3 summoners whose focus is on creating multi summoner summons to ambush the ambushes if its decide to spring it after its found by the scouts in order to pincer them and crush them. all this i hope shows why numbers wont mean anywhere NEAR as much as good planning that accounts for as many possibilities as you can while still specializing your forces to streamline things and make them as efficient with the fewest number of players needed to make it work.
2:35 honestly i agree with you but with a more nuanced (so far at least) take on it that i feel the AOE should be buffed by making most AOE dmg do MORE dmg the more enemies hit by it so if your using a big AOE blast on one dude, its gonna be like the dragon born sneezing a fucking kitten sneeze mid shout BUT if you hit like 7 of those fuckers cause theres 20 of them and they all keep clustering stupidly, its gonna nuke them all for their horrible positioning and attempt to use a zerg to wing.
3:00 those who dont know any better and are on the same mental level as your average racist clan in rust might think zerging overworld stuff would be GREAT but wont get how that will lead to them eating themselves alive cause most things being non instanced means that there wont hardly be ANY resources they get for doing it AND steven has mentioned before how bosses will pay attention to the number of players, to the builds of each player, to the dmg restiances and dmg types they have and their moveset and possibly even stats will change somewhat to reflect that with a massive zerg causing nuke aoes only stopped by dmg checks that also get made near impossible through a bullet hell and its resitances against your 50 fire mages making it near impossible to win which is again why i think zerging wont be a problem ESPECIALLY if they implement players having AOEs boosted by number of PLAYERS SPECIFICALLY hit cause its not anti zerg if your tank idiotically pulls 50 monsters and at that point is just natural selction and you need to just let it happen for having drawn the short straw and got the leeroy jenkins. this is all stuff that still needs to be tested of course but at the end of the day, on paper i see no issues even if i look to the absolute worst case senario that no thought experiment could account for by looking at the history of WoW and what it was like in the worst cases back when it was good and at least a real mmorpg.
3:00 also like i pointed out, a 6 to 10 man AINT a zerg and sure in our current solo player shams of 'mmorpgs', it may be a zerg but its not gonna be one but the expected norm by intrepid of how many people with you will know when you are ACTUALLY zerging when the bosses difficulty ramps up to make it just as if not MORE hard with the amount of people you got with you. legit, unlike eso where you pretty much are supposed to have ONLY ONE of each trinity member since everyone is at least able to more or less cover each role with only the tank and healer needing specific buffs or abilites like pulls with ashes instead requiring multiple tanks or healers to cover for each other and provide support to lessen the load of each person with redundancy to ensure that a wipe doesnt happen if one person fails with for a dungeon party, i would say 1 double rogue who focuses stealth and whose job is running through dungeons clearing the traps ahead of the group and calling out enemy locations and numbers and monster and even player ambuses with another rouge behind looking out for players coming or maybe even secret enemy patrols like triggering or disarming a trap maybe triggering a door to open and a minotaur enters the path behind you to move towards the trap and fix it or even maybe to move towards the cause of the traps disruption requiring careful movement to avoid it or for the group to stop pulling ads and prepare to take it on if they have the resources and skill to do it with than 2 tanks to have the ability to rotate who has to take the dmg and make things easier on the healers to have the ability to let their current tank de aggro and get the chance to recover as the other tank covers them with also that healer needing to be the hardcore one with boost to their ressurection with one healer for general purpose healing as well as ressurecution specifically of the primary healer with them also hard specing into ressurection even if they focus less on healing single target and more in an aoe instead with than 2 to maybe 3 dmg dealers with i would say 1 martial with likely more of a focus on range instead of melee with maybe only one melee as im sure the melee will do more dmg but have a harder time needing to be in melee both to hit and risking getting hit with the other being probably a summoner to give the option for an off healer, tank, or dps based on need with than one last player to serve as a support with it likely being a bard to serve as the mana restorer and master of the buffs who ensures everyone has as much extra strength on top of their own they can get as steven did also mentioned mana battery builds will be a MUST in ashes being players whose only job is to restore everyones mana and ensure that everyone can still manage to use their abilites with some flagrancy.
I just want varying sized PvP battles. Group vs Group, Raid vs Raid, and Zerg vs Zerg. If intrepid can find a way to create those types of situations I'll be ecstatic
I like how they figured this out with Albion online. Content that had limits and capacity for 1v1 2v2 3v3 5v5 Guild V Guild. I don't think an exact replica can apply but Albion has tackled this exact issue.
@@KanWest-mv6drfrom my understanding AOC is going for an organic approach. Basically you can kinda Zerg content but content designed to be a fair challenge for 10 people with drop rewards for 10 people. Getting 12 might be alright for an easier/less geared run and getting 8 people for more rewards might be something to consider but running this content as a 20+ people Zerg just won't be very efficient, now add to that open world dungeons might mean splitting the limited rewards between 2 competing groups and it just stops making sense to Zerg everything. It will still happen but guilds that do that will fall behind if the system is designed and implemented correctly.
I also laugh when I hear Thor and Vlad advocating for massive zergs. The key is the follow-up, how do you feel about aoe damage splitting? Hey are invariably for splitting, because they don’t want any counterplay. Massive corps want full immunity from losing, forever, on a PvX game.
Imo it's wiser to have a "perfect balance" kind of thing when we talk about AoE. Sure its good anti-zerg mesure, but that can turn epic massive battles into "AoE fiesta" . As lone wolf-melee player many times in many mmo when a big scale battle happens (50vs50 plus) i catch myself spectating the whole thing cause i cant pass thru AoEs. The 2 sides just hold their ground and shot AoEs in the middle. If you dont have full buffs + pocket medic u cant approach at all, if your class doesnt have AoE in that case you are totaly a spectator. I dont want that to happen in AoC but we must wait and see at this point.
@@Skull7Prayer yea it’s a wait and see. There’s also a matter of getting balance right via testing. Like I said we don’t want every aoe being insanely effective, having multipliers etc. and we gotta hope these few aoes have appropriate cooldowns or manna cost . I definitely hope we get in a situation like yours described where we always end up spectating lol
ya in wvw gw2 if ur not in the pack ur basically not playing the gamemode, you can be a ranged player and try but realistically the other enemy zerg will root, pull you in and just make ur hp 0 instantly, i love zerging but ashes problem is it looks like zerging will be all you see with occasional 1v1s or 1v2s with cheesebuild players which just aint fun at all tbh, i love zerging but sometimes its nice to just do stuff and opt into pvp if thats what i feel like doing. right now they have a forced pvp system and itll bleed players fast and prob hold onto a niche community like albion but idk if they can realistically compete with albion
and the community is really big on "ya but it hurts you to be a pvper and to pk other players" as we see in albion and alot of other games that system doesnt work lol, not even in lineage
Albion has a lot of strong AoE, even have AoE ascalation, and still its a zerg fest. You know why, cuz heals, buffs, damage reduction, its all AoE, and supportive aoe ability rewards grouping together, if we have all those AoE in ashes this game will turn into 2 blobs smacking each other, taking aoe to the face, cuz bard will shield, healer will heal and tank will mitigate, all in aoe. I want ashes of creation combat to be more than just braindead meatgrinder, and thats where we are heading right now Edit. this eso clip, you just 1v4 one shot all of them with one aoe, why would you ever want to play single target damage, when you can do this?
@@snekkers1609 idk if we can say “it’s heading there now” we literally haven’t played nor tested . We’ve seen PI play, but even they have limited experience. Look at any game pre release and compare the skill/gameplay showcased to how players play today. But I can agree that too much healing strength is what mostly leads towards zerg fest meat grinders
The thing is this goes both ways, so the big zerg that arguably can be killed will not be because they are also using the same strategies. And if they're playing poorly and do get killed by the small guild that small guild will gain players and become the zerg. So either way i don't see how a balance here will be achieved.
@@M4D4FR0 I don’t think we should make balance decisions on human social behavior via predicting a guild to get bigger. As far as both sides using the same strategies that’s fine. There should be a skill or 2 that makes groups second guess their formations and strategy
nGL, beyond trying to relearn how to pvp with mouse & keyboard, the idea that I can't just jump on an admittedly way overtuned NB to go have some solo fun gives me mild MMO anxiety. It's been a long time since running with a group was less a preference and more a necessity. I overall like the idea though. I also think that AoC would be wise to maybe include some free-for-all areas where you can kill anyone that isn't in your guild/alliance with zero penalty. Beyond the ocean. This would give that 2-4 man team more to do. As far as the AoE stuff goes, I'd like it to be good enough to deny ground to the enemy, but not good enough to be a guaranteed bomb.
@@Nyce-Gaming bard all of the way. As a main, but yeah just based on the ranger cammo video that we've seen, I will try rogue. I have a feeling that stealth is going to be nastier in AoC than in ESO - more like (you guessed it) DAoC, where it isn't a 3 second deal that you have to keep spamming.
The biggest red flag I’ve seen so far is damage splitting. Games should go the other way, so the more you hit the more it does, not the less. Always a bad design and very Zerg friendly to do damage splitting.
I would say a solution to this is, leave AoE scaling as is, but monsters/pve gain stacking buffs as they group up. That way grabbing more and more monsters for aoe farming scales harder and harder. But you would still have the same full effect of your AoE on players units.
There definitely have to be anti-zerg tools, but they should not be too trivial to use. I think this is a balancing task, that I would not expect to be solved perfectly from the start. Having numbers and having player skill both have to be valuable and feel rewarding and impactful.
Not sure if I will be able to play Ashes, depends on where the server is and ping. But if I will have an opportunity to play, I definitely don't want it to be like ESO in regards to its balance. May be AOE skills need a cooldown of some sort and cast times or something else. High reward when used AOE properly and some punishment if you slack.
Balancing large scale open world combat vs zerglings is the the ultimate puzzle to solve in MMOs. If the ashes devs pull it off, they will cement their place in MMO hall of fame. God Speed!
It depends a lot on how PvP will work. In DAoC and to a lesser extend WAR, you could fight a zerg with 1-2 well made and played groups (8 man in DAoC). Not really win typically, but harass with fight and run tactics, usually getting many kills. There just about always are and will be in Ashes, zergs. Zergs allow anyone to PvP and not everyone has time to play enough to have a ready-to-go good group 24/7, so large blobs have their place (tough to balance, so we'll see). Now, what I personally think Ashes is missing is a place to 'mess around'. In DAoC it was Emain wall and later instances. This is needed because a spot to practice and/or have fun is always needed to encourage overall PvP in any MMO. Throwing players 'into the fire' will make players quit. You can't be heading out with your trading caravan without having PvPed some or you'll have a lot of rage quits. Tons to say on this, so many factors. TTK is important, too fast and new players feel helpless, too long and good players can't be killed... too many over-lapping AOEs cause lag and can become the de-facto 'best way to play' (happened repeatedly in ESO, lag included, same with GW2). Need some mechanic(s) that can counter many AOEs or deters many AOEs being casted in a small area (maybe the mana cost goes ups exponentially? Can explain by saying only so much 'magic' in an area. Same argument could make each AOE cast after say 3 become progressively weaker in damage). Ugh, could text out pages on proper PvP balance.... haha
Collision detection is also key to reduce zero tactics. Personally having played MMOs since before they even had actual graphics, having combat with more than 100 players on a map has always been a mostly unmanageable, buggy, and mostly unfun affair.
I wonder if a node will be able to hire mercenaries from other nodes to help them in a node war that aren't the at war nodes. Would be a cool playstyle
@@Nyce-Gaming I see, I know there was also a discussion about having player caps in Node War Events, but that info was before Server Meshing tech was announced so maybe that isn't as necessary anymore? Keen to get in and try this all out
@@dontfrown3593 good discussion. I still think they’ll roll with instanced sieges though, I feel server meshing may allow for them to get to the 500v500 they planed originally instead of the current 250v250 🤔 I too wonder what they’ll settle on
Eve online has 2 creatuve solutions for punishment of tight groups. Bombers where they are easily killed but a few of them with well times strikes can wipe 100s of ill prepared ships. Requires major objectives that are multiple small objectives which can break up a 250 man group in 10 separate groups. Now your 10 man squad can catch one unware with out a proper ahotcaller and get wiped.
@@robdiddy55 great take. I’m hoping in a node siege there’s 3 different simultaneous capture points or objectives. Hopefully we see some squishy aoe bombers in aoc
*No fucking AoE damage nerfs!* *No diminishing damage after X targets either, FF14 has this and it fucks up the mob dying times.* *Also, Loot scarcity will make Zergs the least rewarding style of play in Ashes.*
Large scale combat is generally terrible across genres - there's so little penalty for death that players simply go gonzo and respawn. I'm a MOBA enjoyer and I really like how combat there requires planning and strategy on a significantly higher level than anytihng you see in MMOs and FPS games. I'd like it if combat were somehow broken down into smaller engagements where you have the time and pacing to consider the overall combat scenario and comes down to more than just landing your skillshots. Playing chicken-and-mouse with your most powerful abilities, etc. My experience in MMO combat is you get killed by someone off-screen so the main goal is just to get off all your abilities as soon as possible. Not very exciting and it rarely feels like you contributed if you're the 25th-best of 40 players. In MOBAs there are more roles the team needs filling than there are players to fill it so you can contribute tactically and strategically at all times.
I made a post about this on the official forums months ago, I think you mentioned it at one point. I think strong aoes, maybe scaling aoes, will be a crucial anti-zerg, anti deathball mechanic. I'm not saying EVERYTHING should be big dumb aoes, but the tools have to exist to make dumb deathballs think twice. Positioning, even loose "formations" should matter.
@@dimitreus99 THIS! I won’t an uncoordinated group rushing through a choke point to have a counter. I just don’t want to see another mmo catered to ball groups. I agree there’s definitely got to be a limit to how many aoes are super punishing too. We share the vision of the anti-Zerg
@Nyce-Gaming I've even brainstormed ideas with others in the community on this topic. Even aside from class abilities having some options for aoe scaling/anti-ball mechanics, you can imagine craftable items like bombs and mines too that have these anti-zerg mechanics. The possibilities are endless to curb *some* degree of deathballing and make fights a bit more dynamic.
This is true. We have these on eso. Weirdly enough the Zergs have now turned into an abomination known as ‘ball Zergs’ lol but yea a good coordinated ball group of 10 or so taking out uncoordinated Zergs of 20-30+ is epic
i totaly agree with that. A good group of pvpers (especially if they play together for long time and they have good chemistry) can deal with zergs. I have seen 15 vs 50 many times in different games. But those 15 knew exactly what to do.
I'm a large scale enjoyer(and objective based PvP) and imo there needs to be high impact aoe offensive, defensive and utility skills otherwise the game becomes boring even in ZvZ. But ofc offensive skills should in general have an advantage, usually there's more offensive resources in games already. Defensive's also tend to be strong but are more limited in resource/number of affected players. CC and de-buffs can be used in both ways, offensively and defensively. It all comes down to taking advantage of weaknesses in the defense. It can be as simple as a surprise attack(bombing for example). But If the defense is always wide open, aka no defensive's provided by the game, then then game isn't complex enough and it becomes to linear.
@@xClonage yea for sure . No one wants those immortal groups with high ttk in a back and forth. We want to see skill, strategy, and coordination prevail
i loved new worlds fortress and takeover system, where it gets locked daily so when that window is open everyone for hours is battling like fuck and talking to their faction to think of strats and etc
players will always find a way to fight and win outnumbered situations in the same way that players will always gravitate towards grouping and and moving around in said groups. can't nerf or remove human ingenuity or wanting to belong to said groups be it a smaller group or a giant zerg. Skilled players will always find a way just like casuals will always zerg, whether or not they are given tools to do either. Players like @Nyce-Gaming will still beat casuals/zerglings even if the devs don't provide specific means to do so.
I laughed out loud at a zerg is like 30+ people in the clip I always thought Zergs were in the hundreds anything below that is just an enthusiastic raiding party. On topic though they don't need more AOE and it shouldn't be too powerful what is needed is crowd control. Spells like stone wall, entangling fields stuff to slow, divert and break apart the zerg so u can fight smaller groups picking off the the ones that get separated. This will leave only the truly disciplined players being a real threat because they will know to not to keep going.
AoE is a bit too complex to discuss without testing. In PvE I would hate the FFXIV meta where you just spam your AoE rotation whenever there are 3 or more mobs. For pvp keep in mind that this game has player collision, and stacking like in GW2 shouldn’t happen, so idk to which degree AoE scaling would even be effective. Personally, I would like AoE in PvP to be sustained damage instead of killing blows, and very resource intensive (very effective against large groups but useless against smaller groups). And if there’s a big AoE nuke it better have a huge cost and a loooong cast and animation time, like a meteor you can see coming at your face.
@@SocialFutility “too complex to be discussing” I disagree as discussion is all we have and ‘combat logic’ can be discussed at any stage of development. It’s simply the discussion of what works best gameplay or sense wise. It’s the asking for changes, calling for nerfs, or wanting a buff discussions that are too premature without testing. This why I focused this video as a hope to have effective aoe As far as stacking, stacking exist in every game. AOC doesn’t have collision, but this doesn’t mean players can stack near each other or push together. This may be a simple difference in interpretation of the term. I’m referring to stacking a lot of players in an area and pushing as a unit (ball groups like in gw2 wvw or eso). I completely agree far as aoe balance. If there’s a huge nuking ability, pull, etc there should be an appropriately long cooldown and/or manna cost I like the idea of some sustained pressure too 🤔 I think we both agree it shouldn’t be as effective as single target DPS for sure
@@Cimarb thus far it looks like only the cleric archetype may be able to resurrect (if I recall correctly) which has a cooldown, but I’m curious on if the summoner can get this option too 🤔
@@Nyce-Gaming That is good, but how many and how often? In combat or only out? Mass combat revives are, imo, the biggest issue in GW2 WvW, and I just hope AoC is nothing like that.
I think the people calling for aoe nerfs are stemming from the AOE meta that wow adopted years ago. We used to have to CC mobs and pull 1-2 at a time or we would wipe. Mages would sheep, rogues would sap, hunters would trap. It required diverse group comps to be successful. Well later on the game changed to "pull as much as possible and burn it all down". This is the point a lot of classes started to feel unimportant and less meaningful. We are already seeing this in Ashes in PvE. So I think that's why they complain about crazy aoe. But these players also forget about the pvp in ashes. Large scale wars and big group battles need aoe. If we nerf one we nerf both and it'll feel bad. The days of careful CC and single pulls in PvE are gone boys. GG.
How long are you going to hang around in a zerg group waiting for a world event to happen that may or may not happen? One day? Two days? A whole week just sitting around hoping a world event happens near by? Zerg groups and bots will not happen in this game.
@@willsteuer1621 I highly disagree with this take and understanding of ashes of creation 🤔 why don’t you think people will travel or attempt to be in large groups in this open world Pvx game?
Zergs break these games. They need a debuff when 5 or more people are together, taking more damage and dealing less. There are more points of interest that have to be taken at the same time. Otherwise, one of two large guilds owns the server and pushes out all other players through frustration. It sucks to be Insta melted, and PVP games have failed for this very reason time and time again. I hope AOC has the answer to this. Otherwise, we will see Streamer armies rule everything.
@@CoreChamber I get that sentiment. It sucks being ‘the little guy’ on the outside looking in as some huge guild steam rolls everything and locks down a POI I bet
Maybe there could be more incentive to add skills to support type classes to give resistances to AoE damage types. Which could inherently, be a good balance between group pvp compositions.
Effective AoE is mandatory for large scale PvP there nothing worst than mindless PvP Zergballs there no stratergy in it and this happened when AoE have a target cap :( It allows smaller groups to equalise the numbers due to player density allows for more dmg output agaist zergs with aoes. synchronising a bunch of AoE at once in the same spot should pretty much demolish everyone in that area tbh Alot of people dont like the AoE spam seem to be PvE players though from what ive seen so you could make AoE skill have a target cap for PvE only but uncapped for PvP, although i prefer PvE more difficult so large pulls is rough
Yea I wouldn’t mind if these aoe get separate rulesets against players honestly because some pve focused players dislike mindless aoe spam understandably. Mindless alliance stacking can be so annoying though so I hope we see the gravity pull or something
Me? kill 50 players solo? No. Personally I feel bombers didnt destroy eso and theyre barely seen thgese days or as effective. Ball groups and and insane healing did. I've played eso 10 years now and can tell you that when bombers were effective the game was a lot better because now we have 'ball zergs' running the map. 25-20 ppl stacking the same HOTs with insane buffs out strengthing and outnumbering fights. We dont need to see eso style bombers but glass cannon bombers are fun. We also dont need anyone kill 50 ppl without effort. No extremes needed, but 50 ppl stacking near each other... :)
@@Nyce-Gaming i am on your side. i just got recently oneshotted by a bomber in a 1 v 1 duel. it was the worst thing ever... i think bombers should be effective only on 6+ players or smth like that. And it should be more difficult in my opinion... but yeah ballgroups are the same shit, but you see them coming xD
@@luzbrother lol I feel this. Yea I think that’s where scaling aoes should be balanced . Like have a proxy detonation skill that’s horrible damage unless it’s 4+ people then it gets stronger the more people it hits or something. With a huge cost and cooldown 🤔
Death is item degradation. Zergs, like tyrranids, have the same weakeness, if they win but are at a material loss (due to gear repairs in ashes needing materials) they swiftly fall apart. Zerg players are not the best, so they die a lot. Used to be a 1vX chad myself, my biggest concern is a Duneripper situstion in ashes, with tanks killing ppl with procs like Duneripper, Way of Fire, Viper in ESO. That is a more cancerous gsmrplay than Zergs.
@@Anaximanderification for sure. I hate proc carries being the best way to go. Strength in numbers make it so you’re less likely to die even as a less skilled player, but you and I both know that’s not always true. Can catch them over extending, not healing, or just being bad so that’s true too lol
@@Nyce-Gaming true, line of sight is the greatest equaliser in 1vX. And that Tank wall has me semihard on playing Tank Ranger, throe down bola slows, place down walls, and go for strength/dex build to kill ppl fast with the double cleave ability tanks have, which seems tailor made for comboing with the greatsword cooldown reset buff.
@@streetDAOC I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion. I also feel you should be punished for going 30 seconds without applying a heal or defensive buff while you and 5 friends chase one guy around a staircase
@@conancimmerian5066 anti zerg skills are needed imo. Just because eso did it horribly and attached it to proc sets don’t mean anti zerg mechanics shouldn’t exist. We both remember how common and how horrible the first iteration of dark convergence was but they eventually got it right. Those were dark times. Plaguebreak, didn’t say anything similar to that. That one is a different can of worms for sure
@@Nyce-Gaming you call them dark times, I call them Necromancer Heaven. We were gods Nyce, magicka gods! Now look at us. Fucking, not even F tier we are at unsubscribe tier
@@conancimmerian5066 😫 convergence cro was indeed satisfying but being xv1’d by double pull convergence was tough lol. Necro got some buffs for next patch 👀 time to ascend!?
AoEs are already op, because they hit more than one person at once. Anything that makes them even stronger would simply make them ubermeta and boring as fuck
@@megamcee not necessarily. In a pvx game we must look at thing’s in a broader manner. A couple of aoes on specific skills having multipliers is fine if it has large cost and cooldown. Aoes in nature are or should be a lot less damage than single target focused ones. Merely hitting more than one target is just the base benefit expected. With some aoe this will be enough as is, but to not want any that can better punish large groups effectively is something I’ll have to disagree with
@@Nyce-Gaming I do want those zergballs punished, but in a better more skill-based way. Give us singular abilities against supports (tank, healer, buffer) that disable their support in some way. And with proper party balance, a party shouldn't be able to do shit w/o its supports. I simply don't want the dumbeasy "use an aoe here" design, because I played with it in L2 and aoes were op as hell even w/o any scaling.
@@megamcee here’s a thought. Wanting a couple of strong aoes doesn’t mean nerf single target or debuffs as counter play. Like I said in the video, aoes out-damaging single target abilities is typing game design. Only scenario an aoe should do ridiculous damage is if it has a long cooldown and/or is one of few aoes that deal more damage dependent on how many people are in the area. Single target should be strong and good coordination should be rewarded for sure. Curious on how target of target is handled 👀
@@Nyce-Gaming but they already do more dmg if there's more people, because aoes hit all of those people And while lond cd aoes might seem nice, it won't be nice in Ashes, cause it's a game about hundreds vs hundreds, so the entire gameplay would simply come down to "who gets their aoes off first". And if aoe cds are then balanced to be even longer, then the meta becomes to simply have more chars with those aoes. This was the case with mages in L2, because they had an uber strong aoe on a very long cd. Castles were won and successfully defended due to one side having more mages. I personally don't want to see that kind of super basic and obvious meta.
@@megamcee we can’t discuss balance before the games here but all I’m saying with this video is there’s nothing wrong with strong aoes if done right. Key word done right. If an aoe with escalating damage multipliers has ever killed you then you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. We should be punished for this. The battles of 100v100 can’t be as simple as “who gets their aoe off first” with so many factors, buffs, and archetypes remaining to be seen. I’m not focusing on just “make aoes strong” cause I mentioned, that sucks. I think you agree with that obviously right? The strength is that they already hit multiple people yes? ALLLLL I’m saying is it’s ok to have anti zerg mechanics or very select few aoes with damage multipliers to punish stacking of Zergs
