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Astel's real talk on why he did and stopped his cursed arc and how he considered quitting【Holostars】

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#hololive #hololstars #スト鯖ARK
Stream source 【ARK ストリーマー鯖】今から私に出来る事。 / アステル・レダ • 【ARK ストリーマー鯖】今から私に出来る事...
‪@AstelLeda‬
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8 окт 2023

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Комментарии : 447

@eiarsan 10 месяцев назад

Astel is legit one of the realest people in HoloPro. I love how open he is

@Shadow-ze8zb 10 месяцев назад

not only holopro but the whole vtuber community

@user-re4mj4vu5f 10 месяцев назад

yes I am so sure u understand him so very deeply just by watching his english speaking clip.... for real for real. No hate for Astel thou. But the viewer who think they know the person on the screen on a deep level to say something like "realest" should just take some tests. Even IRL streamers, the one job that who litterally show their real life to people, are not actually "show" everything to viewers but to think a Virtual streamer can "show" how "realest" they are to you just so dilusional.

@Juramate 10 месяцев назад

@@user-re4mj4vu5f Alright dude. Tell me where the doll touched you? 😂

@turooru 10 месяцев назад

Being “real” isn’t about showing your true self, but about talking honestly about things that would usually go unsaid.

@vvaleddy 10 месяцев назад

@@user-re4mj4vu5fI don't think you understand the concept of "being real"

@OboretaiClipChannel-hx9fj 10 месяцев назад

While it's almost a par for the course to blame anything on parasocial unicorns / idol culture, *PLEASE* do not forget that there are other types of problematic fans that Astel also mentioned here. 1) Overly obsessive fans who keep bringing his pairing with Niu / cursed antics up even on unrelated streams and collabs. It's fine to ship them, but don't reduce one or both of them to just the ship and nothing else. 2) Overprotective fans. Not the same as unicorns and more of "normal" fans who otherwise just misinterpreted the situation and assumed that their oshi might actually be annoyed / uncomfortable with Astel. At the end of the day, *please respect stream rules* and do not bring up other streamers or topics unrelated to the stream unless the streamer themselves brought up it first. And while it's hard not to worry in certain situations(Niji fans know this too well), and it is good to provide constructive criticism, *diving straight into hate piling accomplishes nothing and only cause more damages. This applies even when you meet other problematic fans mentioned here.* I personally know all too well not all fans can be reasoned with, but please at least try instead of just throwing insults off the bat. As Astel mentioned, anything that happened on stream, no matter how wild, most likely already got approval beforehand. So if your oshi laughed along with the joke, just assumed that they're at least okay with it and if they truly was uncomfortable, they just would sort it out behind the scenes by themselves to make sure it never happens again.

@heerotomoe 10 месяцев назад

Thank you for this note. It was frustrating to see this nuanced talk reduced to "unicorns/gachikoi bad" when they're rarely the issue for him... If possible could you pin your comment for better reach?

@Purpletrident 10 месяцев назад

Parasocial is parasocial. Wanting to control the stream and the streamer, who they hang out with, what they do, how they act, being overprotective, shipping, etc etc. This is all parasocial behavior. Even just wanting the streamer to say hi to you. It's just different levels of being parasocial. So yes, the problem is people being parasocial to very unhealthy degrees.

@Solus749 10 месяцев назад

I recently had a discussion with a niji fan who were on the hardcore side niji is family kind. That person saw most commentary aginst niji as hate comments rather that criticism and even admitted that it is difficulty to critique niji in their eyes. I were as neutral as I could be and tried to be polite but I will be honest hardcore fans do bring several issues not only parasocial ones in case of unicorns/gachikois. I mean sure niji is getting heat since atleast last year but the situations have been bad and course correction from them is needed imo. Said fan had a good point though, hate spamming and anti behaviour isn't the best way to do it and I agree with them on that.

@tuner575 10 месяцев назад

You can really see from the comments who follows Astel and who don't. Also btw, Astel still interacts with the girls on Twitter. They're fine. He isn't avoiding them. He literally just joked about joining Neoporte.

@heerotomoe 10 месяцев назад

Right? He recently had a whole mini-arc as a hero with Karubi-hime for goodness sake 😅

@tuner575 10 месяцев назад

@@heerotomoe Right! He had an entire stream following her around to find a griffin. That same stream he went around helping everyone hunt which included female streamers but people are still saying he's avoiding interactions 😅 I get only watching clips if you don't understand Japanese but being confidently wrong about something is a different level! Lol

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

@@tuner575 That Griffin hunt with Karubi is literally the only main thing he has done in VCR Ark with another female streamer... And even then it was Karubi who initiated it. He's not completely avoiding girls but he is very clearly not mingling with them as much as like in Rust.

@tuner575 10 месяцев назад

@@Chaos2Frozen He quite literally plays alone in Ark majority of the time and only moves to groups of people when they approach him first or he thinks they need help. He was also in Rion's party at some point in the stream. I think a lot of people are blowing it out of proportion because they expect him to still do the "cursed man" skit since it's an open server game. Dude came from hours long of dance practices and recordings, he just wants to play the game without having to think much. He's been wanting to try and play Ark for months. Everyone's genuinely overthinking it.

@tuner575 10 месяцев назад

@@Chaos2Frozen Comparing it Rust is also a bit different, he planned to play in the server with Nana and ToiToi from the beginning since they were all new to the game. In Ark, he just wants to play.

@niel5960 10 месяцев назад

After reading the comments, I fear that people are drawing the wrong conclusions out of this video. The point of Astel's whole talk is not that 'Oh, no! Because of these damned so-called "fans", poor seaweed boy can't collab with girls, or be himself and do the things he enjoys. We should now go fight these people off of our community' Do you want to support him and make sure that we have him for the years to come? Then go watch him. Participate in chat, make fanart, clip stream moments, tweet at him with ideas for content that you would like to watch, and tell him when you enjoyed the content.

@raasan2681 10 месяцев назад

Those wrong conclusions are the easiest to make (I agree with you btw). A lot of people like the feel-good idea of "supporting da bois," but it unfortunately turns out to be lip service most of the time. Rather than focusing on those dang dirty parasocials it would be more beneficial to put that energy into actually watching streams.

@TheMaleEnjoyer 10 месяцев назад

Freaking THANK you. I don't get why this is a difficult concept to grasp. He realizes that doing those chaotic things aren't making him money and dedicated fans, just people that like to watch the chaos and not actually support the boys. People can't form their own thoughts and opinions and just repeat what other people say about "parasocials" without even knowing what the word means. These people who love to say "let them do what they want and collab with who they want" never actually watch or support the people they stick up for. I don't get these people.

@deyanime2871 10 месяцев назад

Glad there are sane people in the comments. Never understood that concept. The "fan" , they constantly blame, at least watch them! They also give money, support , and will come to next stream. Problem for me is the money. . . and also language barrier but that no big deal.

@alexandriaorcld6365 10 месяцев назад

people have said it many times before, if everyone who "likes the holostars" actually put the time and effort into supporting and promoting them they would be in a much better place.

@thieftheodore 10 месяцев назад

Stop censoring their names when you talk about them is a good start for example

@sinisterpanda2738 10 месяцев назад

Damn. This -seaweed- man spitting facts after facts.. I respect him even more now. All the love & support to Holostars ✊🏼 Never give up!!

@rakunmonster 10 месяцев назад

It's always fun to watch his cursed arc, as I know he's doing it just for fun. I felt delighted when he interacted with other streamers, especially girls because he used to be awkward around them and left no impression. I wondered why he doesn't do those cursed streams anymore or general live streams and keeps a distance from everyone. Now I understand that he may have lost interest in streaming due to this "fans" problem and may have almost quit.

@Railgun_Enjoyer 10 месяцев назад

They're not "fans." Don't be afraid to call them what they really are: unicorns and antis.

@rexe30k 10 месяцев назад

recently vtuber called mysta rias graduated for (presumably) same reason, these "fans" are so delusional and cringe, but sadly these kind of fans comes with any streamer (especially holo and niji) if they don't set boundaries clearly so there's really no escaping them unless they openly and clearly admonish those viewers which isn't gonna happen because exploiting and taking these people's money is one of the ways the corpo get their income.

@shinodamasaru7945 10 месяцев назад

Actually, I ship AstelNiu or any girl. He should have a date and normal life without worry.

@kierlight9544 10 месяцев назад

Those days when astel just embarrassed boy with Coco and roboco in Vsaikyou and then became cursed so much change in him.

@shine6465 10 месяцев назад

@@shinodamasaru7945 Y'know that's the problem, right? He says in this video that shippers are part of what made him stop. Shippers are a cancer to any community.

@kiabpaj 10 месяцев назад

I'm glad that Astel actually talked a bit about Holostars in general because not too long ago some members talked about Holostars' future as well. Like has it been hard? Yea, to no fault of their own because again, they weren't welcomed in the beginning but still continued on that path without throwing fire back. The small strides have become achievements. At the end of the day, even if not everyone is openly talking about their circumstances, they are all also aware that it is a business they're in, too. Regardless, I believe Astel will be fine no matter what happens. Even with the worry of black lash, it doesn't mean that he can't focus on himself. You can't please everyone and even when venturing out to make connections there's going to be some people in the fandom that takes it the wrong way or demands otherwise.

@renbenen 10 месяцев назад

A real informative talk. I learned a lot, thank you Special-Grade Curse-kun.

@pesquet2176 10 месяцев назад

Astel's always thinking about the Holostars name in anywhere he goes, but it makes me so sad whenever he tries to exclude himself out of it in order for the rest to shine (around 12:06). I got into Holostars because of Astel, and I enjoyed his cursed arc and trolling shenanigans A LOT, so its rlly a shame how some of his arcs can't stick around for too long cuz of antis and "fans" who can't take a joke. Also rlly appreciate him saying his thoughts behind the scenes throughout the early stages of his VTubing career and arcs. The thoughts of "oh i could do BL if management wanted me to" or "i'd be a teetee machine if thats just what girls would like" makes me glad we have the current version of Astel rn.

@happyavocado5256 10 месяцев назад

Personally, I'd like him to continue his cursed arc since it was entertaining af and the way Astel interacts with others outside of holostars made me curious to check those people while he can spreading Holostars's name as he said he's leading the charge with Bessan Trully a based madlad and it kinda moves me

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

the madlad unfortunately stopped

@nagajule7715 10 месяцев назад

If it wasn't for him I wouldn't even know the agency neoporte existed till now.

@renchan2095 10 месяцев назад

@@nagajule7715same bro

@a.r5235 10 месяцев назад

This is really eye opening especially the last part of him not loving himself and that he would dissapear if he had a break makes you realise how fragile people are (In a good way)

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i dunno if this good in some way but ogey

@Fishman465 10 месяцев назад

Many streamers are like that, such a "need" is often a driving factor in going into the profession

@cicron10 10 месяцев назад

Astel often says he's one of the least idol-like members of Holostars, but he's the vtuber who has impressed me the most on stage. With that said, I think there is a pretty big problem with his way of communicating: he often says outrageous things that could induce drama like graduation or hating Holostars talk, and viewers have gotten used to wave it away with "astel is exaggerating again, he's not serious". That makes it hard for us to communicate though because clipping these things could get him in trouble and so a lot of his serious talk are sadly only known to people who watched him live

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

yeah pretty much

@coffeeberry9399 10 месяцев назад

Thanks for the clip but I think a part of the conversation is also missing. Astel mentioned that some of Niu's fans were telling him that he doesn't treasure Niu enough and both Niu's and his fans started treating them like a real couple. He didn't mind it at first but then he realized it might affect Niu too which is why he distanced himself from it. He doesn't like it when it bothers other streamers that why he lowered down the jubutsu content when the fans are started to push hard for it. GunKan as another commentor mentioned, and OreApo themselves have mentioned it too. Maybe people are not familiar with it but OreApo had a period where they didn't collab because the shippers got too annoying. I think Hinano has a clip about it but it's in JP. No idea if that got translated. And for the lot saying "no wonder Astel doesn't do collabs anymore", he generally doesn't collab with other people though? He is very much a solo streamer unless invited. Not sure why that's such a big deal if you're actually familiar with his content. He has periods where he collabs a lot but then goes back to his regular solo content afterwards. It's pretty normal for him. 😅

@maroodoughnut 10 месяцев назад

15:05 Man, I got emotional when I heard this. It's so heavy. The Astel situation, from what I understand, is problem between Astel himself and his fans. This is a difficult time. The feeling where someone who supports you and you feel close to them, but it gets to the point where you don't understand each other. Stay strong, my man Astel. I've been following Niu since her subs was still under 100k. And at the point where Niu felt like quitting Vtuber because it wasn't working for her. Niu is one of the hard workers I know, and it has also been admitted by Hizuki Yui, her gen-mate. In my opinion, she is the only one from Neo-Porte who actively interacts with overseas fans while streaming, even though her English is not strong. well, I follow all the members. From what I remember, Astel was concerned about this matter, because he knew that Niu had talent. Astel cares about Niu. In my opinion, it was Astel who helped Niu gain exposure with the "cursed arc". For those of us who watch it, it may seem like Astel is crossing the line, but like he said, the line can be different for each person and he doesn't think he's crossing the line. He also makes sure everything is under control, planned, and also has the approval of whoever he's interacting with. I hope the fans can understand the Astel's circumstances, but most importantly, understand the Holostars' circumstances. My man is willing to do everything he could to maintain everything.

@1UwU3 10 месяцев назад

I think what he got was unfair to him. I'm the one who didn't ship Asniu. Because I know that Astel only did it to entertain the audience. I've been worried about this since the VCR rust. I'm so sorry that his audience treated them like a couple. Niu viewers say that Astel doesn't treat her well. During the Apex event with Matsuri Astel once said that doesn't want to have a relationship with a streamer. I think Astel doesn't want to have an official ship like Marine. When meet someone who doesn't oppose him. It made him stressed too.

@W1nterfield 8 месяцев назад

Astel's cursed arc was truly one of the most entertaining periods i had watching vtubers. Knew that it probably will end like that, but glad that now feels like astel is back in the saddle. Was watching him from almost the debut, and he is such a talent, i love him a lot. glad that bad fans didn't manage to drive him out fully as it happened with some vtubers.

@Xemphas 3 месяца назад

Seriously love this guy, he deserves so much more.

@Sardra 10 месяцев назад

His dream of wanting Holostars to grow more popular is why he is my oshi. I recognize its a long and difficult path and I don't even know if it's possible with the current state of male idol Vtubers but I always end up rooting for him.

@DubiasDaeng 10 месяцев назад

While I think the cursed arc brought a lot of popularity towards Astel, it also generated a small number of haters/antis as well. IMO, i personally enjoyed every single moment of Astels' before he even started this cursed arc. I think it's a very, very, very small number of haters that made him feel this way, his Japanese viewers are very loyal and understanding as well so it might be the very small minority that didn't like this type of content. It's always fun to see him interact with people (male or female). I noticed this very small number of shippers/antis as well very early on, with the interactions between Niu and him happening and mentioned this on a another video as well. Streamers aren't stupid and astel clearly is a very smart guy to notice these things quick. If we wanna have nice things, we gotta be nice. When the streamer has to mention these kinda stuff, then yknow we done goofed. It also saddens me extremely when he talks about leaving content creation or when he talks about holostars. Most of his usual fans also know he was in a very depressed state few months back, not streaming and being sick etc. I know he'll bounce back because thats the man I choose to support. (thanks for translating once again! it really helps people to come across and understand his point of view)

@starshubble 10 месяцев назад

astel is going through the same problem kanda had when gunkan was super popular. kanda was known for "being gundou's partner in gunkan" but not as "shoichi kanda". doing the gunkan skits and bits didn't help him grow at all. it's the same thing with astel. people stick for "the cursed thing" but not for "astel leda". kanda has had the same talk about it before as well. he's simply airing out the thoughts he had because he often does egosa and sees everyone opinions (also he has a list of all his fans on twitter so he definitely sees everything). no matter how small those comments are, there'd always be a loud minority that he will notice one way or another. but i think that's overshadowing the main thing he wants to convey, please support his solo content! his covers, lore videos, solo streams outside of fps tournaments, and 3d projects. he has lots of them! even if you can't subscribe to his menshi, leave at least one comment or even just a like. he has fought management a lot for his ideas to come to life. please give his solo content a chance!

@starshubble 10 месяцев назад

additionally, it seems like most don't know about this, but he doesn't like being seriously shipped with anyone regardless of gender. especially under the comment section or in official tags. he has mentioned this time and time again. jokingly talking about ships in the context/nuance of the stream is okay but people also took the asuniu ship too far and started asking/bringing stuff about her at every chance. it wasn't only people against the ship but people pushing so hard for it as well. he was really faced with two extremes during the time of doing that bit.

@TheMaleEnjoyer 10 месяцев назад

Shame that this comment has so few likes but the comments talking about "no no no it's clearly those toxic unicorn gachikoi fans that are the problem" are getting all the attention. People really don't know how to form their own original thoughts.

@starshubble 10 месяцев назад

@@TheMaleEnjoyer honestly was surprised a huge part of the comments was just about the fans and not the latter half but i guess it's because it was the opening topic... just wished people paid attention to the other half too

@shallomard801 10 месяцев назад

@@TheMaleEnjoyer Its because those people have been conditioned to call everything that they don't like or understand as "parasocial, idol culture, etc" everything has just become a buzzword that is meaningless now.

@heerotomoe 10 месяцев назад

i appreciate this comment. it put my thoughts to words exactly. it's important to hear the words he actually says, and the overall feel for where they come from vs. viewing everything through our own biases

@AmaitaYume 10 месяцев назад

It's fun while it lasted. And a person can't control a whole crowd. I really do like how the viewers joke around and the ship was also strong (though there will also be some bad apples here and there). Though in my opinion, I do respect the decision because sometimes, when dragging it out for so long, the fans will be more divided and no one can tell who is the one troublesome anymore. People can't tell which is the ship, which is the joke and who are the aggressive ones anymore, especially on the internet where tone cannot be predicted through just merely texts.

@raykiske 10 месяцев назад

Damn I misses his cursed arc

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

I saw this on stream yesterday and couldn't quite catch all of it, and it turns out to be far more serious than I thought. But yeah it's painfully obvious even right now at this very moment he's avoiding interacting with any female streamers on the VCR Ark. Just purely talking to guys only.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

it sucks really

@Fishman465 10 месяцев назад

That is sad as for one, dome Rosetai were looking forward to interactions between Aki and the boys

@frdnahmdnjb302 10 месяцев назад

15:42 "The reason you hate someone might not be the same as what they're actually trying to do"

@ramari1600 10 месяцев назад

What I love about Astel & Holostars is that they are always so real.

@oreaposuki5954 10 месяцев назад

in 15:20 he sounds like he's about to cry but is trying his best to hold it back, he doesn't deserve to take all of this burden alone.

@Sensor_Beam 10 месяцев назад

It's okay if he has to or needs some space. It has been rough for him and for some members too.

@deanthomas2305 10 месяцев назад

I know a lot of people already commented about the cursed arc, or his early days, but let me just say this. Bro is a really caring person. Yes sometimes what he did is kinda cursed, ksgk, but for real, bro cares about other more than himself. And yes, when the people you care about so much, do not understand you, it hurts like hell.

@pi5927 10 месяцев назад

I see a lot of people getting angry on his behalf and i get why they feel that way but try to keep it to a minimum anywhere outside of this comment section please. Attacking or berating people on his behalf won't help anything

@heerotomoe 10 месяцев назад

this. he hates seeing his fans fight with other people

@Sensor_Beam 10 месяцев назад

I'm starting to wonder if "those" fans don't understand a "joke" and/or "sarcasm". It's obviously not a seat to a forced marriage.

@kanataspunchingbag2973 10 месяцев назад

That’s some interesting and wise words from Astel here. I feel like I learned something from his values in streaming and in life generally. Astel is a real one, hope his streaming career sails smoothly!

@Scionofgreyhaven 10 месяцев назад

I just noticed he started streaming less since the Rust series, I had assumed it was something related to this or he had a busy holostars schedule. I like Astel best when he is having fun, being himself, I hope he can be that again. I understand though, his position often comes with these delicate situations. I hope the fans can support him and also try not to bring up topics like these if he doesn't want to talk about it more.

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

I mean, it's probably is just busy schedules because even after Rust he was still teaming up with tons of people playing Valorant and doing his cursed stuff. But it's shortly after those initial Valorant streams he kinda reined it back a lot now.

@heerotomoe 10 месяцев назад

It was both, basically. I'm glad he finally felt able to express why he suddenly became burnt out, because as a fan it was worrying to see

@raeoverhere923 6 месяцев назад

Astel is legit incredible, I could list virtues of his all day, but what I always come away from these serious talks with is the level of empathy and humanity he displays. He's pretty young, not much older than Izuru, but he has such a real understanding of the emotions and motivations of the people around him, and for as much as he can let something slide off him in the moment, he internalizes negativity really easily. Astel might not love himself, but he loves his fans, and he loves Holostars. If Holostars is thriving, and his fans are happy, then Astel can be content; if he feels like the fans aren't happy with him, or a Holostars project doesn't perform well, he blames himself for not being good enough. The best thing you can do to support him isnt to attack his antis, it's to watch his streams and give him real, constructive feedback on them. Astel wants to hear from his viewers, he wants to know what we want to see; even if there are games he plays and streams he does because he loves them (Fuga comes to mind), he wants to keep those other ideas for another time. I remember being in a karaoke stream of his a long time ago, and he asked chat to really hold back on commenting with just applause, and to give him like, real feedback. Do you like these songs? What do you want to hear? How was my voice? He's asked for merch feedback too; what kinds of merch would you want to buy? What would be worth it to you? Astel merch is always top-quality, by the way. The sweatshirt from "One Two Shine" is so comfy, the Pollneu wallet from his 2022 new model/birthday reveal is the perfect size, and the "Twin Crew Stars" shower set works great.

@euniceyuen3222 5 месяцев назад

I miss him. I hope he feels better.

@vvaleddy 10 месяцев назад

A few users need to watch the clip twice before leaving comments.

@NovaVoid1 10 месяцев назад

It’s great that astel is open about this bullshit. No matter what there’s a lot of people still supporting holopro without being dumb and creepy so not all is bleak. My respect for this man at this point is unmeasurable

@kyungmon4598 10 месяцев назад

Seeing this makes me respect him even more. Astel is honest with these things and keeps it real in terms of how creators are people and no one is completely oblivious as to what’s going on. I’m glad he got these off his chest you go seaweed guy

@Tzukisou歌い手 10 месяцев назад

Its crazy to see how much dedication he puts into the company and his community

@pensmith 10 месяцев назад

Business and fun are hard to mix sometimes. Hope he can still do what he wants, cause it was fun watching his antics.

@WindStreak_ 10 месяцев назад

Astel really thinks a lot about these kinds of things, even though he calls himself dumb. He wants the best not just for himself, but for the boys as well, and tried to get their name out despite the possibile antis. You can also tell how caring he is. I'm so glad he decided to have a real talk with us instead of just disappearing. I myself am also that type of person, and it takes a lot of effort to communicate rather than just drifting away. I wish Astel would care for himself more, but I don't have the right to say that considering how I'm the same

@Freyja_112 10 месяцев назад

I noticed he took a long break. I'm not completely surprised he's not feeling well about streaming, but hearing him talk so in depth about it is shocking. It must be pretty bad if he's unable to keep the negativity to himself. I hope it goes well. He's a hard working guy that cares a lot about everyone.

@shinigamimiroku3723 10 месяцев назад

I really hope Astel is able to come to the point where he can love himself no matter what circumstances he finds himself in. I've been there; it's truly hell on Earth.

@CharleneOcampo13 10 месяцев назад

It's all fun and games until people start taking everything too seriously. It's either he's taken too seriously about the collabs or he's not serious enough about his interactions with others in people's eyes. I was so glad to see him talking to people outside of Cover-- even collabing with Niji EN!-- because I love seeing him interact with different people, and all that turned into him almost giving it all up because people just *need* to put entertainers in little boxes where if they stepped out of it they'll get reprimanded for it. Real people and real life don't work like that.

@TheSurgePhoenix 10 месяцев назад

Astel is a good soul that really takes a lot into account with his actions. He's a real one for sure

@TierHarribel 5 месяцев назад

I just discovered Astel a few weeks ago and after having watched all the Holostars, I really do feel like him and Roberu are the two people that stick out as genuine and not so much corporate. I do hope that he'll continue being Astel but I can also see him do way better as a solo streamer that is not chained down by company rules. He definitely has what it takes to earn a large following because he's funny af, he's relatable and he makes every collab he is in all the more better.

@pierredelapotterie5996 10 месяцев назад

It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. On top of getting trouble from fans from both side and for both people involved, he's not making much money out of cursed arc. It's eye opener how much Astel is thinking how he conducts his business.

@aravpradosh1244 10 месяцев назад

He literally said the opposite no ? His cursed arc did well for him , bought him a lot of traction and money but the hate of the antis on both sides got to him and he decided it was not worth it

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

@@aravpradosh1244 Unless there's a grave mistranslation, he literally says "It's why I fully realized my cursed arc hasn't been making money." 11:36

@Astelch 10 месяцев назад

Fans think they’re in a relationship with their vtuber. Para social people🤦‍♂️

@rakunmonster 10 месяцев назад

@@Chaos2FrozenIt's not a mistranslation. But yeah the point that some people missed is, that it's not about making money. He knows that his cursed arc doesn't make money, but he just wants to have fun and interact with people. If it were only about money, interacting with a small group of people and giving them Fansa would be more lucrative.

@satousuzuki8997 10 месяцев назад

@@rakunmonsterFRFR

@fhen_ 10 месяцев назад

Honestly its been fun for the jubutsu arc, although I really qant astel to be back grinding music and maybe making an album. Loved his voice!

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

@@heerotomoe Nice, didn't know about this so I'm looking forward to it!

@jun_6587 10 месяцев назад

Genuinely so entertaining in groups, and is very funny to watch. He truly shined in those moments for me (not that he doesn't on his own). Hopefully we can see more of him being himself. Like he said, his cursed self is closer to his real personality lol.

@Cha.21 10 месяцев назад

At the end of the day, human have different tastes, feelings and understanding about the issues. There will never be a one direction answers or solution. Because you can't please *EVERYBODY* Just do you Astel, do yo.

@moonclown305 10 месяцев назад

I love Astel and I'll support whatever he wants to do, as long as it doesn't have malice, ofc.

@genoramirez7885 10 месяцев назад

Just remember that you cant please everyone. Even if 99% likes you, theres still the the 1%, plus the others the 1% brings.

@TotemoGaijin 10 месяцев назад

Aww, man. But his cursed arc is how I got introduced to so many new personalities. He basically opened the door for Holopro into these amazing VCR events.

@sunnysiderice 10 месяцев назад

I always have so much respect for Astel for being able to talk so openly about his feelings- he’s truly a real one. Something as self-destructive sounding like how he’s ok disappearing as long as his friends are unhurt speaks volumes. He deserves so much love🙏

@saryulis137 10 месяцев назад

Astel : I don't actually love myself that much Then Roberu : I FREAKIN LOVE MYSELF !!!!

@pipikadal 10 месяцев назад

like fr the “fans(not really fans, just some delulu sick people)” are the one getting mad, meanwhile astel or not even the streamers talking to their fans, they are talking to each others and they are friends so like why the heck fans acting like they own their streamers?? 😂

@insideidentity 10 месяцев назад

Being a vtuber is a double edge sword. Sure it's fun to play games and do shit with friends, but at the end of the day they're entertainers and if people stopped being entertained, theirs and other's source of income is threatened.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

because they can. and astel is that living proof that they can. that's the only reason why they feel they have the power because they do have it.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@insideidentity or just play a bf/gf for a living, i know vtubing is one of those that can be very easy to make if you can be consistent enough

@ZeroXSEED 10 месяцев назад

@@akira8393 Not everyone want to do that. And people who don't do that knew they're forgoing potential prostitution money just fine.

@satousuzuki8997 10 месяцев назад

I'd like to say that this is "it is what it is" moment, but nope, not this time around, cuz I've learned enough to know that it's not really their "fans" that were throwing tantrums over bits and jokes

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean they still won, fans or not. id say by vtuber nature, it is what it is

@ZeroXSEED 10 месяцев назад

Oh they're fans alright. Short of actual fanatics. They're like 30% of the fandom and 50% of the income.

@Skelyos 10 месяцев назад

Agreed, I don't even watch him often & I knew he was just playing around. It was entertaining and for entertainment... stupid "fans"

@nyannyan443 10 месяцев назад

@@ZeroXSEED that indeed, is the unfortunate truth

@aracandoit 10 месяцев назад

I think everyone in this comment section should calm down.

@-Raylight 10 месяцев назад

Astel is a real bro, we all would love to hang out and play games with him 😭 It's always a blast watching his cursed arcs, I can't stop laughing, sad to see he can't do it anymore. Guess if it didn't make any success then it's ok for him to stop I'm glad that Holostars are successful now. But at the same time, it kinda sucks that they can't do things they like because of the "fans". People are easily get hurt even if it's not about them nowadays This kinda reminds me of GunKan. I miss them, guess they can't be together again for different reason. But this just reminds me of them

@UtterlyShagged 10 месяцев назад

Sigh, this is why we cant have nice things.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean the winning side sure got the nice things they want

@UtterlyShagged 10 месяцев назад

@@akira8393 unfortunately it came at the expense of our nice things. Which sucks because they used emotions instead of logic to get what they want. You could also say they threw a tantrum and due to circumstances, Astel had to back down.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@UtterlyShagged i mean the tantrum worked in their favor. you cant really use logic, what logic is there when his cursed streams arent even doing well? there's nothing to prove if anything just favors the emotional people

@UtterlyShagged 10 месяцев назад

@@akira8393 true those cursed streams dont do well, but you can agree those cursed streams were entertaining.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@UtterlyShagged yup. in the end the good content doesn't really comes with good rewards.

@archer3813 10 месяцев назад

Astel talk real there. Good TL as always. Also. I think the title kinda too click bait.

@HGKaveman 10 месяцев назад

Well now I’m pissed. I only really learned of Astel because of his cursed arc. I thought the whole thing was funny and loved how smooth he was when talking to girls. Just enjoyed the content all the way through. I was hoping for more like this in the VCR collabs but now I see why not. Why can’t our fellow viewers accept the king as he is…

@kirisame259 10 месяцев назад

But Astel... I actually bought your merch because I love your Jubutsu arc😢

@coacha159 10 месяцев назад

Is tough to be a streamer, especially VTuber. I'm new to this community and still can't understand that there are so many types of fans

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean in a nutshell you boiled down to three groups really.

@cryst01 10 месяцев назад

its not vtuber, its idol culture.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@cryst01 i mean at this point it is pretty much integral to it

@lrekkk9162 10 месяцев назад

I love how open Astel is and how real he can be while still being genuinely kind to his viewers. I strive to be that kind of person someday. This brought back my urge to learn japanese because I'd want to watch JP streamers without this whole barrier language blocking the way

@NochanIsMe 5 месяцев назад

I will miss cursed object astel streams...

@washingdeezsheesh231 10 месяцев назад

wow, thats some legit deep talks right there

@sharkburgerKFPdd 10 месяцев назад

Kusogaki Astel is funny, love all his collab moments

@Cosmoman78 10 месяцев назад

These so called "fans" can't you realize Holostars are already struggling enough to get their names out there, to be more known to people, to make more connections, to answer all the expectations towards them? What they need right now is your understanding and support, not extra deadweight. Crap like these are the least thing they needed right now. Can you all please not stand in their way?

@Sensor_Beam 10 месяцев назад

Yeah! I'm tired of hearing "WINNING SON" (not that it's bad, I mean it's okay, just overrated now) in some chats, when he's the "BARTENDER BOSS". And if not being able to offer them at least a single cent, why not try offering them free (or spread) artwork or custom merch of themselves or keep on listening/streaming to their own music perhaps? That's the kind of support I would most like to see more of, but haven't been able to see enough of really. Especially in the anime cons.

@poggamus4330 10 месяцев назад

OBVIOUSLY THE RABID FANS WANT TO KEEP THE BOYS ALL TO THEMSELVES...

@govind.m86 10 месяцев назад

Haters make sense given the industry but shippers are a whole another set of cancer. Just enjoy the entertainment and pixels without making it weird.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean lets be real with ourselves, with how people look at anime, there are people shipping those that dont even make sense at all. vtubing is just really that and it is just too obvious.

@TheMaleEnjoyer 10 месяцев назад

Shippers have ruined so many interactions and dynamics between people. Everyone loves to blame the dirty icky "parasocials" (a word they don't even know the definition of) but shippers have actually made people avoid each other before.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@TheMaleEnjoyer doesnt change the fact that parasocial is a problem. shipper is a branch of the toxic fanbase. doesnt make parasocial guilt free of causing people to avoid collabs.

@billiejean766 10 месяцев назад

Nah unicorns are way worse than shippers. They do pay though

@Fishman465 10 месяцев назад

@akira8393 not a blanket term though. Not all parasocial is evil/bad.

@solitairius. 10 месяцев назад

it was truly peak content, if only it didnt come with crazy people and misunderstandings... i wish it allowed for them to all grow more

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean vtubing is now driving more of them by nature. there is no stopping especially in hololive unless you wanna take a hit

@clowny3605 10 месяцев назад

I'm so sad that the community and fans have to give him a hard time about this, I really loved his clips and personality it also learned me a bit of charisma too; in an entertaining way.

@clowny3605 10 месяцев назад

16:34 is a real one

@deebil 10 месяцев назад

So this is why he seems lost interest in streaming those day, i hope he has a good decision :' I hope he can do whatever he want :'

@TheJum 10 месяцев назад

Man, I really enjoyed that arc. I’m glad he didn’t quit, but it’s just a shame that people can be so weird about things.

@nefy 10 месяцев назад

Man that sucks. He's one of the vtubers that have prime comedian skills. The quickness and wittyness on his punchlines and jokes and how out of pocket it is, is one of the sides I like about him. It's unfortunate that maybe we can't see it anymore. I hope he can still find a way to show it. He's really a funny guy.

@mostpolitebot1464 10 месяцев назад

nice the so called "fans" won again and successfully destroyed another good content. Tbh it's kinda hard watching his streams where he purposely avoid female content creators cause it's awkward and pretty obvious. The one with hero role play with Karubi-hime was pretty fun though thankfully and the viewership reflects that. He doesn't need to do another jubutsu arc. He just need need to make it really less obvious that he's avoiding girls because it goes against his stance against viewers dictating the streamer's content w/c I really like about him in his early days

@WhiteGuyGraal 10 месяцев назад

I feel bad for him, it's not like he does not want to interact, but it seems he just does not want to burden others, so he tries his best on doing so.

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

It's very obvious right now in the VCR Ark, he's avoiding any female streamers unless spoken to first, and he's just interacting with guys. A huge departure from how he was in Rust.

@Chestyfriend 10 месяцев назад

If you like it then good for you, but you liking it doesn't put food in his mouth. In the end, vtubing is a business and nothing more, if it loses viewers and doesn't make money, that's that.

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

@@Chestyfriend If you want to talk business then just like any business it's all about marketing and making a name/reputation for yourself. You forgo the immediate monetary gains for future projects with other people. Money isn't the real issue here otherwise he would have just gone full gachikoi fanservice and not spend money on expensive projects.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

No matter how they say, the unicorns always wins

@asa_hira 10 месяцев назад

I wish for him to just enjoy doing what he want. I can't imagine what happen if he stop. Thank you for the translation. Because if it wasn't for your translation,im sure a lot of kaigai astellas won't fully understand what is happening and we might don't know what should we actually do to protect our alien. I'm really thankful for your thought to translate this clip for us.

@king0vitrial 10 месяцев назад

On one hand: there's a lot of doom posting in this comment section. What he said hasn't hit me as hard as it hit y'all, apparently. On the other hand: i sometimes forget that the boys have their overly attached weirdos, too. How easy one could forget the Vox Akuma incident.

@user-vd3ux8db7m 8 месяцев назад

I respect his points and I'm happy he reached that point but also it's funny and I'm kind of glad he returned to his jubutsu with Reimu XD I guess he feels safer cause she doesn't follow it hard like Nui but rejects him as hard as he flirts so it's safer but still fun??

@tempura_3 10 месяцев назад

So this is why he rarely colab with another streamer , poor astel, he just dont want anyone get harras

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

the unicorns won

@kierlight9544 10 месяцев назад

I still remember when astel embarrassed colab with coco and roboco at vsaikyou 3 and then to cursed astel. The cursed thing is funny for me but when it became potential damage on relationships or career its became dangerous. It's good thing for astel to step this up to talk with viewers why he kinda change thing one after another so the viewer kinda know what he thought. I remember whe he talk alot with viewer and interactive with them and now he kinda cold, i know some chat on astel kinda naughty so i kinda get it.

@RazzySensei 10 месяцев назад

Astel : **real talk** Astel's character : 🦜🪓🦜🪓

@WindscaleAx 10 месяцев назад

You know, I felt how he feels in this clip but..... Why in tarantula he used pickaxe on tree and axe for stones?

@deflixirvvv2181 10 месяцев назад

Didn't expect astel's fans to be like that tbh, i thought holostars fans are chill, like roberu and mea for example, haven't heard anything bad from them and they also still doing collabs from time to time

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

I've been thinking about this for some time now- but as much as people like to think some fanbases are immune to gachikois, there probably are still some of them lurking around everywhere, sending their shit DMs and marshmallow behind the scenes.

@kaigaikarano 10 месяцев назад

Sadly, gachikoi is there. Even more scarier than ever if u know the real gachi of holostars. They can hate simply the other party is "dangering" their idols. Dont underestimate parasocials. I once parasocials to irl idol. And I HATE that version of MYSELF now. Like, so much

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@Chaos2Frozen the gachikois and unicorns are different but they are same by spirit, parasocial shit. both of them sucks

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i couldnt agree more@@kaigaikarano

@Moff112 10 месяцев назад

you should see some of the Tempura lmao, I've seen some shit here and there

@Lorachzwan 10 месяцев назад

I just wish for Astel to keep having fun in an unrestricted way, whether the “fans” approve it or not. Money is important too but I think that most of his viewers are already accustomed to his cursed arc to happen here and there, real ones will support him regardless

@melonpandesu 10 месяцев назад

Astel position right now is in the Middle hate and love from both side . I miss astel cursed arc 💔 😂

@ryee2403 8 месяцев назад

man... astel ;;

@Yawnz2 10 месяцев назад

Astel is a real one!

@unownnnn 10 месяцев назад

I appreciate his honesty. It was fun while it lasted. Makes me realise how lucky we are that we still have Roberunightmea

@Techna_SA 10 месяцев назад

Its already hard for Holostars to get thier names out there and the "fans" arent really making it any easier for them, and it seems most of the stars boys want to do more and interact with more people but the so called "fans" put limits on who they should or shouldnt interact with. Its painful to see honestly.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean they can if they can still technically do the cursed stream. so i dont really think its a huge thing if the agency is not in the way. so you can do it albeit taking a massive hit. if thats what you wanna care then yeah play the safe one possible. trying something new is always a knockback and axel sure does take some of it but overtime he makes his name out there by reaching to other vtubers outside of hololive.

@benja9029 10 месяцев назад

@@akira8393 the bois can tank this shitty situation easily but the problem lies with them dragging the other person with them. that's why it became less appealing or not worth it to do which actually sad

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

@@benja9029 yeah, the boys are fine with it but i cant bet if the girls are willing to take a hit as well. we know kiara couldnt in a milisecond as well as irys. even if we have some people that say that they are okay with it, it doesnt really say that they are willing. so yeah. even on the bois i doubt they can all that much really because either they really dont care or just put up a strong front. hololive's issues is never going away because you have additional anxiety among the females, and then add the fact that they dont wanna deal with their fanbases. yeah shit is really not helping holostars

@shutup1037 10 месяцев назад

Both hololive and holostar fan honestly

@1UwU3 10 месяцев назад

Not that I like his cursed moves. But I want him to be able to treat female Vtuber normally like normal streamer without cursed For example, Astel treated Towa normally. it was like he was calm when talking with friend who were playing the same game. Even though they've never streamed Apex together. Personally, I like him as a steamer for the FPS game Apex Valorant, but I don't like him much as an idol. Because Astel also has a group of male viewers.

@mahiroali93 10 месяцев назад

astel is cool man since i discover his channel i guess its hard being a idol & a streamer i do miss his jokes with female vtubers

@DarkMickeyz 10 месяцев назад

All things considered, true love is still chuna (tsuna). 😂

@1UwU3 10 месяцев назад

If it's Apex Team I really want to see the Astel chuna towa team because both Astel Towa they get along well with chuna.😂

@raasan2681 10 месяцев назад

Shippers would have soured the experience sooner or later anyways and therefore this was bound to happen. Should've been obvious, so... Shrugs. There are better ways to get your name out there, would be nice if he joined another tourney. The Mad Maggie arc remains superior and very entertaining.

@Eiensakura 10 месяцев назад

I swear some ppl are just so socially inept, irl and online, they'd make the hunchback of Notre Dame look like a social butterfly.

@tiredmann 10 месяцев назад

Astel's so real fr

@kingsmerte3629 10 месяцев назад

Such a shame, his cursed jokes were so funny and brilliant. But yeah if it actually doesn't have an economic return, and causes trouble, then his decision to stop is fair

@justawanderingoldman7699 10 месяцев назад

I just can't comperhend why "fans" feel that they own their oshi or whatever they call it. I just can't understand it. Just, why? Maybe because I never really have gachikoi or oshi or what. I just watch streamers in general for fun. I just support them as a mere fan, no more and no less than that. I don't have any weird hope or delusion. Those streamers are also human. Human has their own right to be friends and interact with whoever they want. Not even their parents can take away this right. And who are those "fans"? God? Pardon me to be rude. If they want to search for something like a runaway from reality in form of GF/BF experience, then just search a fictional character(s) from game, anime, or whatever, and love them. There are many games with this thing as their main focus. So you can act as if you own them. But please don't do this to VTubers or streamers in general. As I said before, they are also human. So you("fans") can't own them. You all will just hurting them AND yourself by doing it.

@alexeystarkov7504 10 месяцев назад

It's useless trying to be reasonable with parasocial freaks, they think that their favourite streamer/vtuber owns them something simply because they give him money. It's useless trying to explain them that the person they simping for is not obligated to to anything for them in exchange or behave accordingly to their delusiuonal vision about him. They don't see the content creator as a human being, they see him as an object that always owes them.

@goldendrain1776 10 месяцев назад

Imagine if those fans don't exist and the whole fanbase of a vtuber individually is a fan like you. All of them just watch clips and the vtuber existance is just a passing thought through their day. No one would watch their streams, buy their merchs, going to their event etc. Like it or not, those kind of fans that you hate is important to the sustainability of a vtuber career (or any public figure honestly)

@justawanderingoldman7699 10 месяцев назад

@@goldendrain1776Nah. I'm not talking about not buying merch or what. Yes, I AM POOR AND I KNOW IT lol. So I can't buy any merch or what. But as a fan, I do have some urge to buy merch, concert tickets, and send superchat. I always keep saying to myself that if I finally get a good job, I will support these people who makes me happy. Being a supportive REAL fans and being a toxic parasocial ISN'T THE SAME. Yes, toxic parasocials will absolutely support their oshi with all their might and financial power. But it's not an exclusive thing for them. Any regular fans will also do the same. If anything, those parasocial "fans" bring more harm than good. Towa is the best example of this. She nearly graduate so early after her debut because of her gachikoi fans got mad after a certain accident. They left her and attacked her. Only us, those who you call as mere regular viewers, stayed with her to support her. I'm proud to say that I was one of them. Most of us were overseas viewers that time, and we are free from gachikoi obsession or simping culture. Hololive was still pretty niche back then, so not many weird overseas viewers were there yet. So we merely support her as a fan. But did Towa stop becauase of lack of income? And did we never support her in any direct way like sending superchat or buying merch? As I said, I was also poor that time. So I couldn't. But some of my fellow non-simp overseas viewers who stayed behind did support her with all they could do. All they wanted was "We need to support this sweet hardworking girl." The point that I want to say here is, you can still support these girls with all you have without being a toxic parasosials. Yes, they will devoutly buy those merchs. But they are not the only one who can and want to buy them. So their contribution in these streamers' career growth isn't that big. All they are doing is being a land mine who will ruin their beloved streamers career out of unhealthy passion. Towa is the greatest example of being freed from parasocial fans isn't a bad thing. She is one of the Hololive girls who can collab with males more easily exactly because of that.

@Fishman465 10 месяцев назад

Very common story of a particular mix (overprotective ones and shipping zealots) ruining a collab duo. I can already hear Nousagi and 35p going "first time?" Interesting tangents, though I'm surprised HoloStarsEN didn't force a fujo focus like NijiEN seems to. The merch thing does sting depending on previous sales Some people are workaholics to the point where if they stop/take a break, that's it. Oh yeah the matter of duo eclipsing a talent.... Flare, nuff said

@Karoshi000 10 месяцев назад

a really nice clip i get the feeling that holostars management not only compares their livers with hololive revenue, but also global market like nijisanji boys en (which is obviously not a fair comparison) can be eye opener for some ppl to remind them once again this is also a kind of business and the livelihood of ppl behind this also depend on it

@thieftheodore 10 месяцев назад

It's not really management but more of shareholder pressure. The big change happened at the same time as Cover IPO

@Karoshi000 10 месяцев назад

@@thieftheodore yeah im not saying its the management fault, like astel said cover as a company must have certain expectation for holoboys since they take care of them etc unlike indie activity which cant be helped

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

although i always wonder what part of holostars that failed but what part of nijisanji males worked?

@thieftheodore 10 месяцев назад

@@akira8393 viewer that usually watch regular male streamer avoid the Idols and "Holo" association. While regular "Holo" viewers avoid them because male

@Karoshi000 10 месяцев назад

@@akira8393 if you meant to compare to nijiboys jp like kuzuha, etc imo its bcs holo started very late to debut boys unit + they put idol label on it, and i think public only really recognize hololive side

@MintyPolaroid 10 месяцев назад

Poor Astel maaan. Sucks how people are so wierd. I'm not like aromantic or anything but I could care less about BFE and GFE... I watch these boys and girls cuz they're insanely talented both at games and performing arts, and I aspire to do the same. Peeps just dunno how to discern fiction from reality, that's just sad to me cuz that means it ruins the fun for everyone. Worst part is, these aren't even all kids, they're grown-az adults too.

@pi5927 10 месяцев назад

How do the holostars have so much rizz

@mayadesuwaa 10 месяцев назад

dem i was expecting joke but i got deep talk

@yamiRic 10 месяцев назад

whoa it is very heavy. I wonder why it worked well for Roberu but not for Astel. Probably because Astel have younger viewers I guess Also real talk.. what he wanted is actually something that indie usually have. Having fanmeeting, managing your own fan server, etc. Almost feels like he only stay because he doesn't want Holostars to get hit again (too many graduations in that branch already) But I also hope Astel considered the difficulties of growing as indie comparing to grow in company as big as Holostars. I hope management will treat 2024 as year of Holostars again like they did in 2022. Please take a month break if needed. You can return stronger.

@akira8393 10 месяцев назад

i mean if i could tell astel, i would because lord knows people kill to get the oppurtunity like he is. indies lets you have all the freedom but in the end, it sucks because the work is all on you. i mean maybe if vshojo wants a male jp. hmmm

@blackpolar8703 10 месяцев назад

Well, for Roberu, it's typically the onee-sans attacking, so he typically plays the straight man, avoiding those "attacks". Whereas for the cursed couple (Astel and Niu), they hit off each other and so it might be harder for unicorns to accept. That said, this is actually a good translation clip as it really shows the reality of Vtubers. Hope for the best for Astel and the rest of Holostars.

@heerotomoe 10 месяцев назад

Astel's viewers actually tend to be older than him, last I heard

@orbitalvagabond 10 месяцев назад

I appreciate his honesty. However from how he talks about his willingness to change behavior and speed of changing preferences, I wonder if Astel has a stable ideal he's pursuing or not.

@shallomard801 10 месяцев назад

You know its funny that there are people in the comments here like "I never even watched his streams but he should have stuck with the cursed arc", maybe if you all actually did support him by watching streams instead of just being clip-only fans then maybe he would have kept doing what he wanted instead of having to focus on appealing to gachikoi again lol.

@Chaos2Frozen 10 месяцев назад

I mean, that does nothing to resolve the main problem that the people who do watch those streams have the tendency to take things too far in both directions.