That's another thing that screwed up about religion, is that it influenced people like the preachers I grew up under in the independent fundamentalist Baptist circles, to say that those people were just doomed from the start because no matter what, if they did not accept Jesus as their savior, they are not going to heaven and the only alternative is that they are going to hell. Just another example that proves the point Christopher Hitchens made when he said that religion makes people do and say disgusting and horrible things. Religion truly does poison everything.
Christians argue that by not spreading the gospel you also deny people the chance to go to heaven (even if they avoid hell). The question then becomes: Is it moral to give someone a chance at eternal paradise while also putting them at risk of eternal hell?
@@pjj.1318 Oh shut up.😂😂😂 God, whenever you religious nuts don't like something your bible says, you're like "read in context" or "people don't know the *true* scripture". But when there's something you don't like going on like homosexuality, abortion, or women having power, boy howdy; will you point to your favorite verses, ready to project your bad life decisions to a group of people that do not give a fuck.😂 Just stop, please.😂😂😂
@@pjj.1318 "If they were studied carefully." Every time one of you don't like something in there, it's always "it was written wrong" or "read it in context". But when you agree with it, "well the scripture says..." or "it's god's law!" Just stop.😂
The Christian afterlife is a good example of how easily trying to imagine a utopia just turns into the ultimate dystopia. Giving half the people unimaginable torture for eternity and taking the other half's conscience away so that they would no longer be appalled from said torture is about the most evil thing I can come up with.
@CmanWizard I think the Christians are the ones going to hell. I am a God believer but I always felt like there was a plot twist to the Bible. Christianity being the biggest religion means it can't be the right one if 80% of people are going to Hell. That 80% includes them.
"Jesus loves you" signs are incredibly hateful. Because the missing line after that is, "and if you don't love him back, you'll pay for it by burning forever in hell."
Sin = death. God is trying to save you from death (hell). So far, you've found excuses to not be saved from hell. Wise up. THIS JUST IN! Atheism lost. There is absolutely no POSSIBILITY of a GODLESS world. What? DO YOU SINCERELY BELIEVE that a mud puddle produced the human being? Yes! We see it all the time! Or was it star dust? Maybe moon dirt? And then a NEVER OBSERVED NATURAL CAUSE (e.g. star dust, moist rocks, mud puddles, hot rocks, moon dirt, warm ponds, gravity, oceans, primordial soup, nothing) produced ALL the many different independent structures that we find within the bodily systems that co-exist and are co-dependent (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, digestive, endocrine, lymphatic, urinary, skeletal, nervous, muscular, body/skin) - all intertwined in co-relative order in the human body and THOSE SAME DESIGNED SYSTEMS seen in MILLIONS of other animals? And atheism thinks A MUD PUDDLE DID IT? So where did the mud puddle get the required MIND to not only create, but design all these systems, so that they all work together in harmony, so that life could not only survive and thrive, but reproduce? Atheism is further destroyed by the question, where did the LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE, RESOURCES & MEANS come from that are required to produce all these bodily systems? Especially, when all matter does nothing but increase in decay? NEVER has a gain in complexity/new information/evolution/gain of complexity been observed. That's because NOTHING of the atheist cult exists and certainly has never been observed (e.g. gain in complexity/new information/evolution/new anatomy) Even atheists claim that this world of FINITE NATURE (time/space/matter/energy) had a beginning (see below) and if you have a beginning, you have a beginner/cause/source of EVERYTHING we observe in the world. “Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.”-Stephen W. Hawking and Roger Penrose, The Nature of Space and Time(Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1996), 20. Conclusion: This world had a beginning; thus, a beginner (God). Bottom up production of EVERYTHING from NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE. Only top down production (EVERYTHING from a source of EVERYTHING) is POSSIBLE. Those facts point to GENESIS and not moon dirt that came from nothing and produced the first cell with systems within to eat, digest food, eliminate waste, move, breathe & reproduce, NOT TO MENTION that same first cell also had the DNA blueprints of 9 million DIFFERENT species so that evolution could also come from NOTHING and diversify that DNA into the 9 million DIFFERENT animals that roam the earth. God is not only the only logical explanation for our world, but the only POSSIBLE explanation for our world. And that's by design. God knew if you actually did the research, you'd come to the truth (God, Creation, The Bible). God proved; atheism destroyed. FIN
@@JD-Reddev 1) I am happy indeed, but not as happy as people supposedly are in heaven. The fact that people are dying from starvation means that I can never be perfectly happy. 2) Hell is infinitely worse than starvation. 3) A small minority are dying from starvation. A huge majority are in hell if belief in the right god is needed to avoid it.
@@JD-ReddevI’m almost totally powerless in the face of an uncaring universe & take what little pleasure I can. We were discussing the mental landscape of a Christian who is in this conception of reality is in contact with an all powerful, all knowing, all loving being who can put an end to all suffering including the hell it created before any suffering anywhere suffering has even started.
Realising an average christian would be able to torture you with a smile on their face while talking about love and their imaginary friend isn't really that much better.
Happy? You mean like sleeping in late instead of going to school? Anybody that shirks their responsibility is "happy" for a moment, but then again, daddy will be home soon. STOP w/ your stupidity. God is the standard of righteousness and God can't be evil. Sin = death. And you've sinned plenty in your life; thus, you're headed for 100+ trillion yrs in hell. But God is trying to save you from death (hell). So far, you've found excuses to not be saved from hell. Wise up. You need to start doing your duty to be thankful to your creator for the gift of life given you and start seeking out what he wants for you in this life; what he had in mind when he created/designed you in his image & placed you on this earth. Let me educate you even more: We don't remember being in heaven as a soul and asking God to make us a spirit, but each of us did. We made an agreement w/ God to be born on this earth with the free will to choose him or not choose him. You don't remember, but he remembers: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” - Jeremiah 1:5 The same is true about this +/- 70 yrs we spend on this earth; we're not going to remember it: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” - Isaiah 65:17 Have I now proved that I know more than anybody else on this channel? Let me help you get a better grasp of true reality, because I'm BY FAR the man with the best deepest grasp of true reality. That's why God put me here. I have all the important answers after having had the experience of living and doing the study & research to ascertain, know, understand and act on the knowledge God gave me.
It's absolutely led to me developing a healthier mental state. I no longer live every day in terror and anxiety of hell, and I no longer live in perpetual depression about being unworthy of being saved. It's been only good for me for the last 15 or so years.
@@MilitantAntiAtheismNot all atheists reject free will. Those that don't usually believe more in rehabilitation (ie, influencing a criminal's mind until they stop being compelled to do crimes) whenever possible. Either way, neither group wants criminals running around hurting people and disrupting society. So, criminals are punished, rehabilitated into being non-criminals when possible, or they're separated from society so they can't hurt anyone anymore (ie, prison). Free will got nothing to do with wanting them to face justice. Also, funny you used an atheist in your screed, when we've all seen the mountains of cases of priests doing horrendous stuff to kids. If your god is so just and right, why are so many of his representatives the most awful people?
@@MilitantAntiAtheism Is english a challenge for you or are you just completely ignorant? Atheism is not a religion. It is the absence of a religion. You, me and everyone follows the morals of society regardless of theist or atheist. To violate those rules requires accounability regardless of free will. Regarding free will: A omniscient god and free will are incompatible. You cannot know the future and also be able to choose a different future. This is just basic logic of non-contradiction.
Several years ago I built up the courage to explain to my wonderful, but deeply Pentecostal, father-in-law this exact reason for why I couldn't worship God even if I believed in it. I told him that even if I were to fully repent, God would know that I can't possibly love him or enjoy heaven due to the fact that people are in hell and one of them could easily end up being my daughter. I asked him how he would deal with watching my wife (his daughter) burn for eternity, and he blew my mind with: "It won't bother me at all because there is no suffering in heaven." I know this man and I know in my core that he does not understand the true implications nor the sheer horror of his words regarding future heaven, current day earth, and the singularity's worth of pure copium needed to feel okay about those words falling from his mouth
Daughter: Hello Dad? This is your daughter calling you from hell. I just wanted to say I love you, but I'm being tortured horribly for all eternity. It is unspeakable. Dad: Meh
@@littlebitofhope1489 personally I think there's no pain heaven bc God eats souls. He practically admits this in the verse about being luke warm. "I will spit thee from my mouth." He likes them fresh out the oven.
b-b-b-but god doesn't do anything to you! you choose to go to hell and be tortured for eternity! because having an honest lack of belief is the exact same thing as wanting infinite torture!!! i'm not crazy, you are! /s
@@cowsaysmoo51 ReRead The Holey Script-Yourz. You've been Decieved by the One Eyed Farmers, The Authors of Confusion put it together to Enslave your mindz,soul,livez. I purposely put the word soul in there to trigger some particular folkz🙉🤣
Hell, I think, is the biggest argument against Christianity. It leads to so many in-canon contradictions and nonsensical ideas that you don't have to point to anything but Christianity itself to prove that it's not true. The core of Christianity, as told by nearly every Christian in existence, is that God is love. Hell, in every form it takes except the non-canonical one where it is simply a place where souls learn their lesson and are later allowed into Heaven, is the antithesis of love, and God allows it to be a thing, whether a literal place or simply the absence of God. Either way, it is eternal suffering with no chance for redemption, and that is incongruent with everything we know about love. It's evil for a god to allow such a concept to exist for even a single soul, let alone the vast majority of souls to ever be born.
STOP w/ your stupidity. God is the standard of righteousness and God can't be evil. Sin = death. And you've sinned plenty in your life; thus, you're headed for 100+ trillion yrs in hell. But God is trying to save you from death (hell). So far, you've found excuses to not be saved from hell. Wise up. You need to start doing your duty to be thankful to your creator for the gift of life given you and start seeking out what he wants for you in this life; what he had in mind when he created/designed you in his image & placed you on this earth. Let me educate you even more: We don't remember being in heaven as a soul and asking God to make us a spirit, but each of us did. We made an agreement w/ God to be born on this earth with the free will to choose him or not choose him. You don't remember, but he remembers: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” - Jeremiah 1:5 The same is true about this +/- 70 yrs we spend on this earth; we're not going to remember it: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” - Isaiah 65:17 Have I now proved that I know more than anybody else on this channel? Let me help you get a better grasp of true reality, because I'm BY FAR the man with the best deepest grasp of true reality. That's why God put me here. I have all the important answers after having had the experience of living and doing the study & research to ascertain, know, understand and act on the knowledge God gave me.
@@4Mr.Crowley2 The Trinity is utter nonsense yeah, but it's not as powerful an argument because it doesn't have the emotional resonance of "Your loved ones might be burning for eternity and this 'loving' God will force you to be happy about it while you're in Heaven."
Excellent explanation. When I was studying catechism I pondered and justified hell by saying that there would be a time when infinity would end and those in hell would be eligible to go to heaven. Why? Because a loving God could not condemn his children to such horrific punishment. Needless to say that my reasoning crumbled under its own weight. Infinity means forever. Forever has no end. And it was downhill after that.
... and they have the audacity to claim that we need religion to be moral?!? 😮 Seems to me it's exactly the opposite - the only way to be moral is to forsake the appalling doctrines of most religions!
@@tulpas93 So, I know that you have to believe that there is nothing wrong about incest, because this is a revelation from the atheist prophets like richard dorkins, mad pedolahunty and commie harris. But let's follow this logic. What is wrong about necropilia and cannibalism? And do you cook human flesh before you eat it?
@MisinformationEnjoyer According to atheist religion, men become gods, like mao zedong, Mad Pedolahunty, Commie harris, lenin, richard Dorkins, pol pot, in order to tell pdf file atheists what to think and how to think, because atheists cannot think individually.
When I realized Hell wasn’t true it was the biggest relief of my life. I couldn’t get my head around having friends and family burning in hell while I enjoyed paradise. Also I now don’t worry that people are in danger of hell if they don’t believe in the Bible. I’ve slept much better since. 👍👍
@@JD-Reddev It always blows my mind just how giddy so many Christians get at the idea of people suffering for eternity. Y'all are psychopaths. I wouldn't wish the Christian Hell on my worst enemies.
@@JD-Reddev According to Judaism it's nothing but a looooooooonnnng sleep. Now why would another religion come along and change it all to fit a new narrative. Christian - oh you're talking about Islam!?! Almost buddy just open those eyes a tad bit wider and you might see the big picture of how STORIES are appropriated to bolster more STORIES.
Matt, this is, for me, the best video you’ve ever made. You essentially went through my entire mental process that started my de-conversion from Christianity way back in the 7th grade… only you put it to words better than I ever have. Thank you!
One of the greatest benefits that heaven is supposed to bring is that we will see our loved ones again, but that just doesn't make sense if some of our most loved friends and family are not going to be there.
Awesome beard your growing. A slight trim on the edges would make it look great. Keep up the great work of educating people, pushing back against bad ideas, and growing a fantastic beard 😊
Initially hell was not a part of the fabric that caused be to loose my religion but as I learned more it was another aspect of faith that seemed nonsensical. It is interesting Matt talks about the angst someone in heaven will experience knowing friends and loved ones are suffering in hell. Yet I heard more then one Christian gloating that god will punish all non-believers in hell. So at least some Christians lack empathy for they fellow human beings.
That’s true but especially true with Muslims I’ve seen some of them even get happy thinking of non believers in hell and that was the moment I realized that either one of two things 1 God is evil or god is not real
Oh, very much so. If you read the Bible, God's countrymen are very prone to sin. But keep in mind, there is not a one-to-one correspondence between things that make sense and things that are true.
Love your channel Matt. I unintentionally got in a very friendly debate with a Christian yesterday. She asked me if I believed in God and i answered honestly and said no, then we debated for about an hour. It was fun knowing how to rebut a lot of her arguments from watching so much of your content and debates. i didnt have a checklist of memorized talking points, i understood why her arguments were flawed. I've learned a lot from you and look forward to learning more ❤
I also left religion for a reason that had nothing to do with whether or not it was true. I left my religion when I realized it made me depressed and that not going to church helped me feel better about myself and my life. Logical reasons came later and Atheism only came after educating myself.
As someone raised atheist, I never really understood the trauma the concept of hell inflicts on people as kids until I saw how 90% of the callers on Matt's shows are ultimately motivated to believe in religion because they're afraid of hell. After 45 minutes of coping and beating around the bush of course.
@@AegixDrakanYes, I don't remember a time when hell wasn't a dark cloud overhead. I remember being six years old and warning my five year-old neighbor friend about it.
That's the danger of staying a baby Christian and not growing. It's wise to fear the powers behind the forces of nature. But then you forget to appreciate the beauty of nature as well. It's very strange how we see things pass away in the world and new things come out of nowhere to take their place. Instead of death just taking over, new life shows up to replace what's dead. Life emerges from places it shouldn't, just like magic. I think it's a preview of what's to come. Life coming from what should be dead. Peace coming from what should be pain. God will magically fix it all. So all we have to do is put it in his hands and like the Beatles said, let it be. Amen.
@@theboombody do you not think it's bad to live your life so passively? Why is it so important to you to exist forever in an afterlife? Do you also think you existed in a prelife? Isn't it a bit arrogant to think you're eternal, have a personal connection with a literal god, and understand things outside of reality?
@@neetpride5919 Permanent existence is not important. It's a gift. If this life was all I had, I would hope I'd still be grateful to God for it. Because even this temporary life is a gift too. The Bible teaches that everyone, including Christians, are undeserving of a close connection with God, so you're right about it being arrogant to feel entitled to it. Remember that baby Christians keep a wide open mouth and say a lot of things without reading a Bible to see if it really says what they claim. So they spread a lot of ideas that aren't Biblical. That's why staying a baby Christian is dangerous. It's necessary to grow if you head down that path. Jesus said to count the cost because it's expensive.
Once I did study to see that there was no Hell mentioned or described in the Hebrew Bible and seeing how the Jews were inspired by other religions during captivity for ideas of a “hell” rewards/punishment concept, I soon left it all behind. Best thing I ever did for myself. Free of the superstitions.
There is no more an ' afterlife ' than there is an ' before life ' . The reality is ... I'm spinning on a lump of rock through space for 80 years give or take. After that ...I'm going nowhere fast.
Exmuslim here. When I stopped believing and the veil of sacredness and indoctrination was lifted, i realised how ridiculous and illogical some of the beliefs i accepted without question were. Hell was one of them, and the Islamic depiction of it is absolutely bizarre. The inhabitants of heaven can literally look down on those being tortured in hell endlessly in the most horrific and unimaginable ways, and enjoy all of the pleasures and delights of paradise without feeling bad. And people actually believe this stuff
Unfortunately, the thought of not being yourself anymore and being okay with friends and family being in hell has not stopped a single Christian I know from reconsidering heaven and hell, since it's God's doing and thus must be good.
When theists threaten me with hell that tells me that there's no way they can be convinced by any argument since if they believe that hell would be the result of denying their religion then nothing is going to make them deny their beliefs so they are not open to argument. Classic closed mind.
@MisinformationEnjoyer Perfect,exactly the sort of theist I was talking about. So you agree that you fear of hell stops you from accepting rational arguments?
@MisinformationEnjoyer So again nothing to do with my initial comment. Other theists use the total dread of a supposed hell to try and coerce me into believing in their deity sans evidence missing the fact that the same dread stops them from listening to reason (unless they don't believe in the hell they assert). You on the other hand just have a fear of disappointing your deity,a completely different situation. Please either cover what I'm talking about or don't bother making pointless comments.
@MisinformationEnjoyer So you do agree with my initial statement. So why are you here talking to me about it? Why are you not talking to the theists who make such claims so you can correct them instead of wasting the time of an atheist who is just pointing out the absurdity of their assertions?
Thank you for putting words on this subject. I always had a strong feeling when considering Heaven and Hell together and considered the absurdity of rejoicing in Heaven while seeing people's misery in Hell. But I wasn't able to connect all the dots. I've been an atheist for the longest time but this is important for me.
Muslims have the same view. I've always told them that you're not going to be you in the afterlife but they just don't get it and say God will make a way for it all to make sense then.
I recently challenged a thumper in a chat. he asked if presented with evidence, would I change my mind. so I asked him to define "evidence"....he called me mean and blocked me....
You're mean by asking him to define what he means by "evidence", thinks it's mean of you to ask him to define something. So you deserve to get blocked for being so mean to him. Yet his God is not mean enough for him to stop worshiping him, even though he's apparently so thin skinned that he can't take any criticism to the point that just asking for clarity is somehow being "mean". Here's the problem with all of this. He is going to continue to worship a God that will send you to hell for all of eternity. People like him, it's so obvious that they just don't think about it at all, because if he has just one rational bone in his body, he would realize that by worshiping someone who is going to burn you alive for all of forever, when if he thinks that. Even if you were being mean. He shouldn't block you. He should be trying to save you from eternal torment. That or he's just morally bankrupt as Matt would say, because by blocking you, he knows that he's doing you a great disservice by letting you stay "lost" or w/e. So you're the mean one. Yet his God is not mean when he sends countless people to hell for committing the most horrific crime of not believing bullshit. This is what religion does to people. Including me. I'm so glad I'm out of that mindset of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
@@japallo1 If you're making a case for a supernatural explanation for everything, then you must accept that with the supernatural ANYTHING is possible, including the existence of all the other gods that people worship. Heck, a flying leprechaun could've created everything. To make an acceptation that only YOUR supernatural god is the real answer is not only illogical, but dishonest. So, when making a god-claim, you not only must provide evidence that the supernatural is real, but also provide evidence that only YOUR god is the answer. Attaching a theology to your claim complicates things even further. That's a tough one for you, as the supernatural has NEVER been proven to be the answer to anything.
Matt, your point is valid (Seeing those you loved enduring hell is not eternal bliss). I wonder, has any apologist claimed that once in heaven you will comprehend some ineffable god plan and rejoice in its majesty, or is that also a version of "you will no longer be you?"
I had similar thoughts about the concept of heaven and hell.....my thinking was along the lines of even if you're lucky enough to go to heaven an opposed to hell, you are there for a literal eternity of "bathing in the glory of god". Human psychology isn't set up to deal with this. A lot of our happiness & self-worth comes from struggle and pain and overcoming pain and achieving things that are difficult. We appreciate the good times because we also experience the bad. We derive something worthwhile from our relationships because we know they are temporary so we appreciate them whilst we can and miss them when they are gone. But if are in heaven and there is no pain, there is no struggle, there is nothing to strive for and nothing achieve, this takes away a MAJOR part of what it is to be human and would basically destroy our sense of worth and purpose. For anyone to be happy under these circumstances would mean fundamentally changing who that person is (presumably using "god magic" to achieve this). So even if heaven does exist and you get to go there, you still basically "die" because the person god would have to turn you into in order for you to be happy in heaven would be nothing like the you that existed on earth.
Great stuff Matt. The key christian doctrine - i.e. that god loves everyone and paid the price for their sin, and yet is willing to toss people into hell simply for not accepting his terms of payment - is essentially divine blackmail. I remember over thirty years ago when my father died. He was not a believer, yet a very good man. I could not fathom how a god could toss someone like him into hell simply for not believing, even though he was as good as they come. It was at that point I fully realized how absurd the christian religion truly is.
As a JW, this wasn’t the main reason that “life forever on a paradise earth” didn’t make sense to me but it was up there. But knowing that the people who had abused me, who were still allowed privileges and considered in good standing would be on the same planet with me forever made me sick. I still have regular nightmares about running into them at conventions/assemblies/gas stations. To think that god/his one true religion can just forgive abusers without any consequences and not even an apology to their victims is unjust and cruel. And now that I’m aware of all the CSA cover up it’s even worse.
For me personally, moments after I had concluded that gods were man's inventions for coping with the unknown and didn't actually exist, the concept of any heaven or hell evaporated instantly. I did take a few more minutes to digest that fact and that my existence would end at my death and nothing would come afterwards. But, more than anything, that did not feel depressing, only liberating.
I was 6 the first time I was hit at my Catholic Primary School. I had asked why I would be sent to the same place as Hitler for telling one unconfessed lie. That became the first step on my journey to Atheism.
What made me question christianity was the idea that people could make a conscious, well informed decision to go to hell. Because going to hell is against everyone's best interest, no one should be able to choose to go there unless they are ignorant or mentally insane and are literally incapable of making the right decision. God shouldn't send insane people or ignorant people to hell because it is against his nature, so he must not exist. The only way around this is trying to justify making the objectively wrong decision to go to hell. What really urked me about this was that I could turn into an atheist any moment by becoming ignorant or going insane like the many other Christians who deconvert. I couldn't simply avoid the triggers either, because people of all types deconverted sometimes for contradicting reasons, the next thing I knew, I was deconverting myself.
Being forced to make decisions under duress (e.g. the threat of eternal agony) is not and can not be free will. Is there a hell or is there free will? Can't be both and it's most likely neither!
After watching Mindshift's video about his 7 reasons Heaven just doesn't work, this is something i have been thinking about. I think that broadly anyone who actually gets into Heaven and are still able to see what goes on here on Earth must still feel some sort of sorrow for what goes down here. I can't imagine any supposedly moral person existing in Heaven and not feeling the slightest amount of sorrow for all the people still on Earth suffering. From the perspective of someone in Heaven, regular life on Earth would be Hell so i feel i don't even have to bring Hell into the conversation but if i did it becomes qll the more easy to show a place like Heaven simply wouldn't be heaven if how the Bible describes it is accurate. Congratulations to all the people who could find themselves able to be infinitely happy in Heaven while getting to watch bad people infinitely suffer in Hell and neutral people suffer on Earth as they stumble around without the presence of God. I'm sure that would be the sort of entertainment going on in Heaven. God flexing how all the natural disasters he's making and all the cancer patients dying because of his will just so he can show the people in Heaven how down the road it's gonna lead to an awesome episode of some good coming out of it that he planned. Dear God, no amount of reward in Heaven will make up for the suffering you've caused on Earth if you are real. Sincerely, All Decent Hearted Human Beings.
Zim's happiness implant is a great metaphor for heaven/religious based outlook on life. It was a hude screw that he jammed through his test subject's skull and into his brain that made him "happy" about everything.
Hell seems like a big motivator. No one admits it but once you can get over the idea of hell, at that point it seems okay to question. For me it was the realization that a hell of eternal suffering, putting aside annihilationism and separationism, could not exist if an omnibenevolent god also exists. Those two concepts to me are very clearly mutually exclusive. You can't have something so inherently and obviously unjust while a perfectly just and perfectly moral creator deity set up the rules for the universe. And now the idea is just silly but you can't see that while you believe it.
Yeah. I have so much to say in reference to this topic. I suffer from OCD (Scrupulosity), so I spent the vast majority of my life in constant agony being tormented by unbelievably disturbing 'intrusive thoughts' that obviously were beyond my control (hence the reason they're referred to as 'intrusive'). Ultimately, what I did was engage in my own personal brand of experimental therapy. I simply decided to face this epistimological 'demon' of mine and try to understand it on it's own terms. Obviously, I wanted to be emancipated from my horribly debilitating and tormenting OCD symptoms. I knew that I was incurring a bit risk, though. I did this all by myself without the aid of a Psychologist or some Religious Type Figure. I knew that there was a possibility that my symptoms could potentially become not alleviated but rather exacerbated. But, nothing that I'd tried 'clinically' had helped in the slightest, so I took a chance. Frankly, I don't think I had any other choice. So, 'spoiler alert* my approach worked out exceptionally well. Mt 'recovery' didn't occur overnight, though. It was obviously a gradual process. Prior to beginning my foray into the ever so wonderrous world of Judeo-Christian Theology, there were some fundemental things that I was already aware of. My entire immediate family are essentially all fellow Atheists. My Father is Jewish, though. He's a Non Practicing, Secular Jew, but a Jew nonetheless. So, I was already aware that The Overtly Dualistic Christian Religion is vastly, vastly different in just about every which, way, shape and form from the largely 'Wholistic' or 'Monist' religion of Judaism. I knew that Judaism featured no belief in a transcendental place of punishment or other such patently Pagan and Duslistic tropes or doctrine. I also Obviously was aware that Judaism came first and while I don't have a Doctorate in physics... yet... I understand Chronological sequences with respect to cause and effect. So, I had a somewhat decent foundation, but as I studied, I became aware of so many things the vast majority of Christians definitely are not aware of. The amount of corruption of The Tanakh and Judaic Theology perpetrated by The Writers of The NT (Paul and The guy who wrote Mathew especially) and also Christian Apologetics who've devoted so much time and energy to essentially 'square a circle' is overwhelmingly massive. Anyhow, I engaged in much contemplation and I arrived at so many conclusions. I knew that The Bible never spoke of 'Hell' and the corrupt translatorshired by King James intentionally mistranslated every reference to 'Sheol', 'Gehenna', 'Hades' and that one lone reference to 'Tararus' (in 1st Timothy if memory serves correct' to 'Hell' do The KJV would better comport with the contemporaneous Christian Praxis. Ok... But, what about all those dinky, very esoteric sounding passages littered throughout The NT. You know... Things like 'weeping and gnashing of teeth', 'the place where the worm never dies' and so on. After some contemplation, I had to conclude that this was all 'metaphor' at the most and 'Senseless Pagan Rambling' by Paul (who was Jewish by blood but knew very little about the religion as evidenced by copious errors that he made in his Genuine Epistles) and all of the other anonymous Hellenic Pagans who contributed to the rest of The NT. None of these passages can seriously be construed as a 'description of a place'. If you look at The Tanakh, you see IMMENSE DETAIL when it comes to describing things like Hallakhah. Just look at all the detail in Leviticus alone. And, what do we get for a description of 'Hell'? Next to nothing. Tiny two sentence passages talking about 'gnashing teeth' (even though teeth can't exist in an immaterial realm), or a Lake of Sulphur (even though lakes and sulphur) can't exist in an immaterial realm. Also, I'd like to put major emphasis on Mark 9: 43 'If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out'. That CANNOT be construed as a Literal contention. Bodies INCLUDING HANDS don't go to 'immaterial realms devoid of substance'. That one can ONLY be interpreted as 'metaphor' and because 'God' ostensibly doesn't wish to confuse people, then all the others have to be 'metaphor', too. You can't suck and blow. But, there were so many conclusions that I arrived at. Where do I begin? They say that Heaven is a place of 'eternal happiness' and 'Hell', the contrary. How do you force someone to be happy or sad for that matter? You actually touched on this. I guage the quality of things in a relativistic manner. As such, if I'm in Heaven I'll still construe things as 'good' and 'bad'. Let's say I'm at the 'Heavenly Ice Cream Bar'. I'm still going to construe my Cherry Flavoured and Peanut Butter Flavoured Ice Cream as Good and conversely something gross like (Pun very much intended) Heavenly Hash as 'Bad' So, 'Good' and 'Bad' still exist. If you're contention is that my mind is altered without my consent in such a fashion that I cannot percieve anything as worse or inferior than something else, then everything is Moot! I no longer exist. That dude on Heaven is not me. For all intents and purposes, I am my mind. Alter my mind and you've just killed 'Justin' (that's my name) and created a totally new person. The same applies to Hell. Also, if 1 Third of Angels who DO NOT HAVE FREEWILL can wage a war against an OMNIPOTENT entity (which makes zero sense) then violence, hate, suffering, Et. Al. can exist in Heaven. So, I see no reason why joy and jubilation can't exist in Hell. Another thing about this 'Heaven / Hell' business is that it really 'cheapens' The Religion of Christianity. Firstly, your impetus for adhering to the dogmas of any religion should be 'Noble' and 'Selfless'. The vast majority of Christians only identify as such because they are totally 'consumed with their well being'. It's a quintessentially 'Self Serving Religion for Self Obsessed Egomaniacs. Jeffery Dahmer makes a perfect 'Christian'. Beyond, the Eschatology, there is nothing to speak of. Christianity is The 'Seinfeld' of Religions. It's a Religion about nothing. Why was I created? In order to be saved. Why do I need to be saved? Because I was created. Around and around we go. Like the Oroborous tattooed on my wrist, Christianity has no substance. The essence of The religion is just one giant 'Circular Logic Fallacy'. While I an indeed a fellow Atheist, I actually have a good deal of respect for the religion of Judaism From an Academic Perspective, it's actually quite interesting and substantive. And, you'll never hear a Jewish Person say something silly like 'I practice Judaism so I don't get sent to a fiery realm of suffering'. That Platonic, Dualistic Nonsense is abjectly antithetical to Judaism. Also, it makes no sense for a Christian or anyone who thinks that the religion is valid to ever think about 'The Afterlife'. If God is Omnipotent, you're going to where you belong. Period. End of Story. Are there certain irreconcilable contradictions that emerge when combining 'Omnipotence', 'Omniscience', and the doctrine of 'Freewill'? Yeah, definitely. We need not get into that. You're going where you belong... So quit talking about it. Also... I'm quite sure that no one would want to be 'Where they don't belong'. Imagine if Christianity a tally turned out to be authentic and you're up in 'Heaven' and no one wants you there. What will you do? You'll leave and go to where to where you're accepted. No one's going to chill in a place where they're despised. So... Again... No Christian ever has to think about The Overtly Pagan Dualistic Afterlife Concept. You'll be where you ought to be. But, you and I both know that Christian Preachers, Hustlers and Demagogues won't stop. They won't stop because it's a racket and a very lucrative one at that. There's tonnes if money to be made in The 'Fear Mongering Business'. Anyway... That's my take on The 'Heaven / Hell' trope. If you get a chance, add me to Facebook. I sent a request Ages ago. I won't drop any names here, but I'm mutual friends with many of your really good buddies. Take Care. - Justin Krever
My turning point was different. Confessions of St Augustin, a beautiful book. But a great example of wishful thinking: " I believe it because I feel so much better, if I do ". I ideed feel bad about believing in high risk of cancer for everybody including myself. But, this does not make me believing othervice.
I learned a lot when talking to my Mom about this subject. I asked if she would know if I was in hell (because I’m not in heaven) and if that could make her sad. She indicated that god would make it make sense in such a way that it would not make her sad. I asked if she would therefore be fundamentally different in heaven. She said yes - whatever differences there are would be good because god says they would be. I did ask certain questions like “where did all the water go from the flood” and it literally came down to “it’s magic - god just made the water come and then took it away magically.”
similar to this, the lack of justice is a systemic issue. if a judge had everyone arrested and only found innocent those who bribed him, who would the free people be? the people who practice bribery, not the truly innocent. who gets into heaven? those who worship this god, not those who actually follow his laws.
It's kinda similar to the idea that we value life *_*because*_* it's finite, and how an eternal afterlife completely contradicts that. It's a denial of fundamental facts about ourselves and the human existence...in favor of wishful thinking and meaningless platitudes.
Thinking back on my Catholic upbringing. It seems I remember stories of hell more than anything. "Mr. Bigdome went to church. He never missed a sunday. Mr. Bigdome went to hell for what he did on Monday" This was how our priest began his homily once. Never forgot it. Nuns would spend an hour talking about the horror of hell in Catechism. Much later in life my evangelical friend frequently reminded me that without Jesus I was going to burn. I remember sitting around a camp fire. Gazing at the glowing embers thinking that was where I could spend eternity because"I didn't let Jesus in my heart". I do believe the concept of hell nudged me into making my confession to Christ. At a mens fellowship meeting on "winning men to Christ" I remember a speaker saying "There's nothing wrong with scaring people to Christ". I believe most of the cars you see in the church parking lots on Sunday are there because the drivers don't want themselves and their families to burn for eternity in hell. You can argue there is no evidence for hell. And there isn't. But I would bet there is a believer out there reading this saying "There is no evidence against hell" Then of course there is Pascals wager. And on and on and on.. It is superstition on steroids. Believe..or burn. And its our loving God holding you by the hairs on your head ready to let go and watch you fall into that eternal lake of fire..... Right. Superstition on steroids
It was the opposite in my Methodist upbringing. I can't remember anyone talking about Hell at all, not even in the pulpit. Sermons were about the Christian commission to help others for the most part. It was a liberal church and I suspect people were simply too embarrassed to talk about it, and rightly so.
For me, it was when I was about 5 and my dog died and I was talking to my grandma and I told her my dog was now in heaven. She told me that dogs don't go to heaven. 5 year old me went "that doesn't sound right, something isn't adding up here".
Carrot and stick morality is morality for people without morals. The key motivating factors are that of threats and rewards, not the goodness of your heart.
this is a silly comment, there is no other morality that you described and you dont need god for that, if you are utilitarian for example and you define good in any way what utility is, morality is the way to achieve it and that's just carrot with extra philosophy, it does not need to be personal, you can say something like "it is good for humanity" it is still a carrot, there is no such thing as _"the goodness of your heart"_ because any way you try to define "goodness" it will always be carrot
