Your current set up is how I am going to do my next tank I have the same brutes in my basement for my water. I want to hook my ATO directly to the basement tank so I don’t have to lug buckets up to my main floor I need to hole saw through my floor I plan to put sump in basement as well. I am gonna go from 63 gallons to 210 and throw in an Apex I have 7 tanks three of which are saltwater. These are great ideas! I want to incorporate some of your stuff into mine thanks for posting this very well explained. You are a gentleman and a scholar!
Thanks for sharing. Just a friendly note. If your solenoid fails to close you will have water splash over your plugs. It would be safer to have it point towards he sump.
Not actually true. Since the DOS and gravity are both pulling from below the solenoid, if it stays open, it would suck in air, not expel water. That is actually the point. It breaks the vacuum between the DOS and the Tank preventing either the DOS or gravity from being able to siphon water by introducing air.
First of all, thanks for sharing your setup and explaining at this level of detail. I've been thinking about setting this up for a while now and have been looking for someone to show their setup the way you did. Glad to hear you addressed the ATO because while I've seen multiple articles or videos on how to set up auto water changes, they all ignored the presence of ATO, which clearly is going to interfere with pumping water out of the tank or sump. At first, I didn't get why you had the solenoid there but once you explained it made perfect sense. Now, the 3rd "problem" you were looking to solve with the solenoid - some mystery siphon sucking the water out of the sump after the water change hours (e.g. 6pm)... you solved it by setting up the ATO to pump fresh water at lower speed than the siphon would pump it out, therefore eventually triggering the low water sensor. BUT... wouldn't it be easier to just keep the solenoid open at all times outside the water change hours of noon-2pm? This way you are guaranteeing to never have the siphon, to begin with, and don't have to worry about the ATO pumping rate, etc.
Max Headroom yes keeping thensolenoid open when not doing water changes would be good. But, from my understanding, the apex solenoid is closed by default. Electricity is applied to the valve to force it open... it was told that keeping the valve open for long periods of time can overheat the mechanism making it failure prone... you still need to have the optical sensors anyway in case of failure during the water change itself. Thanks for watching
I’m setting up my apex auto water change this week. This video was very helpful!!’ Thanks for taking the time to share your experience, set up and knowledge.
good job explaining the details Amro as usual your videos are top notch...This is exactly how i have set up my AWC using DOS in the basement. The only difference is i did not T the pipe taking old water down because the pumps are made to pinch the pipe when not on working thereby stopping the flow..thanks.
Ashfaque you might want to do the solenoid valve as well Ash for extra safety l. Yes the pump is designed to pinch the tube, but sometimes the pump’s internals wear out. Also, someone may accidentally cut / nick / remove the tubing between tank and dos... just another layer of safety
This is a very well done video explaining how to fully utilize the DOS pump. You also did a great job of working through the failure modes and figuring out remedies for each one. I will definitely be using your ideas to keep my basement floor dry!! Being new, I didn't realize the power of making your own modules. I will have to find out where the different program instructions are documented and explained.
Thanks for the video, very informative. Things I disagree with (don't see the point) is the water level sensors and switching the ATO off because you can run the water removal and return at the same time. On top of that, if you set it in continuous mode, let's say I have a reefer 170, daily 3% change = 5 liter / 24 hrs = 3.5 mL/min - my ATO won't even notice it. Anyway, just "thinking loudly". Thank you for the video.
yes if you were to do continuous mode, then no need to ATO off... the only reason for turning the ATO off - for me at least - is that if there was a malfunction with the DOS that led to a siphon downstairs in the basement and the ATO is on, then the ATO will compensate for the loss of water preventing my fail safes from coming in sooner
@@TheBioReef thanks for replying so quickly, yes, I do understand your point. it is good to highlight all the possibilities could happen and your video is good at it.
thanks Wally - I think the maximum flow rate is 250 ml per min, but obviously you can't run it continuous for long periods; software wont allow it; needs to take a break
I like your video it’s hard to find videos of people that use the tunze in conjunction with a AWC I trust my tunze so I didn’t want to go with another brand. Couple of questions The tunze can be powered on and off without messing with any of its internal programming correct? ie you set it and forget it. Also do you adjust any settings for skimmer, return pumps etc? Lastly if you wanted to shipon you display tank sand bed or do a manual water change how would you refill at that point? via the DOS fill from salt water reservoir and cancel the drain pump? Sorry if I described it confusing
Tunze is great / while I plug it to my apex for power (to be able to turn it off during periods where I don’t need to have my tank topped off), it can be totally stand alone. There is no really internal programming with the Tunze. There is an optical sensor and float switch that is magnetically mounted in your sump, the pump in your rodi, and a line from the pump to your tank. You can control the power of the pump by turning a knob inside the controller (after removing a few screws). It is solid and I highly recommend it. Re. Your other question. The DOS has limits on how long it can turn the dosing pumps for and how much volume it can move per hour. You wouldn’t be able to drain a large volume of water and replace it very quickly. You would need a different type of auto water change system for that
Thanks so much! I contacted Neptune systems and they were useless. You would think they would have some pre-made logic to help us with this in order to make this automation more fail safe. I’m using their atk level sensors to use your logic. Thanks again!
Excuse me if you mention this I skipped around. How do you make sure the salt brut is completly emptied, yet not contiue to suck for another water change so you can mix up a new perfect mix of salt. can you tell the apex to only do this for X amount of days so the brut never empties?
i have an optical sensor at the bottom of the salt water brut ... when the water level drops below the optical sensor, i get the apex to turn off the automatic water changes.
Thanks for the info! Have you add any issues with the apex solenoid coming into contact with saltwater and rusting? I’ve read they aren’t intended for use with sw
Sorry for the delay - In my application, it is only exposed to air. Yes you are not supposed t get them wet with salt water. I have another on my FW system and it’s been working fine
@@TheBioReef wow u replied! I'm impressed. I have rodi water toato rewiviour to sump a d rodi to salt mix station. Do I need a hi lo optical sensor x3 sets one in sump one in salt mix and one in ato to be safe?
@@RWAquariumPages That may be overkill. A single sensor in the salt mix and RODI would be useful to tell you when you need to make more, but i can't see them being useful to day to day operations, unless you manually move them every day to just below your daily water change volume... seems very tedious
Great video and well explained! Definitely appreciate your three options of failures, this will assist me in my layout design. We are setting up a 1000 gallon saltwater system now, be sure to check us out on RU-vid.
Excellent explanation of your setup. Sorry if you have already answered this . To avoid the chance of a siphon while the dos pumps aren't running, can't you just keep the solenoid open while the water change isn't running?
T B you can... although you would have to command this with a timer because - annoying - you can’t sync it with dos heads running as this info is not reported as a switch on the apex
This video is just awesome and I am copying directly. But I am having an issue with the Sump_Problem "when" command code. For some reason, regardless of the time I have for that "when" command, it trips. Testing this, even if I go up to 59 seconds, it still trips (I have not gone beyond that). Any advice on this command and how this could be possible appreciated!
Well, after much trouble shooting I deleted all the programming (then synched) and reprogrammed one line at a time, synching after each, and now it seems to be working (meaning, not auto tripping to "ON" with the last line.) I am thinking of also disabling the ATO during the 2 hours a day that the DOS is running. Can you think of any reason to NOT do this?
Thanks! here is my latest code... the When command as written is designed to keep the virtual outlet ON if any of the if statements turn it on for more than 2 sec...until you manually set it to off. Set OFF If Output HighSumpLvl = ON Then ON If SUMP_L OPEN Then ON Defer 000:30 Then ON Min Time 000:10 Then ON When On > 000:02 Then ON more info on the when statment here... forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?18393-Using-the-%91When%92-statement
Thanks for this video, I just implemented the same technique as you. Your video was a great help and full of good advice. I did notice one thing you are doing and I'm not sure why. In your DOS_ADD and DOS_REMOVE code, you are checking for SUMP_L and SUMP_H being Open or Closed respectively and if they are you turn the DOS Pump off. Why do that when you have the same code check inside of SUMP_Problem? Wouldn't it just be simpler to manage the code in SUMP_Problem and only have the one line in both the add and remove pump to shut off when sump_problem is ON? Plus by having that redundant check in the pumps, it is not using the defer statement of 1 second so if you have a fluctuation with water then this will kill the DOS inadvertently, wouldn't it? I just want to make sure I am not missing something? For me, I made a Sump_problem with the same hi/lo checks and I have two more sensors for checking hi/lo in my clean and dirty saltwater tanks as well. I made a different output called SW_Problem that tracks those sensors. From there I made one more Virtual output called TURNOFF_DOS which checks the sump_problem and SW_problem for ON, if they are ON more then 2 seconds then keep DOS turned off permanently until I check it. Then I add one line of code to my DOS pumps to ensure they shut off when TURNOFF_DOS is ON. One last thing to point out to anyone else reading this, don't forget to add the required lines you want to be notified about to your EMAILALM_I5 output. This way you will get the notification directly to your device/email.
you can achieve the same thing with the solenoid in line with the DOS. so that it cuts off the flow of the water completely. also getting the safety code in just in case the solenoid fails in the on position. Don't you have a back siphon with the RO line? that's the problem I had so I installed the solenoid there as well. just some food for thought.
That was my original intention but the apex solenoids are not rated for salt water. i don't get the same issues with my RO line as it is not immersed in the tank. Any fresh water in the RO line simply drains back to RO container
I had to extend the cable using speaker wire that you can easily get from amazon or home hardware stores (eg. www.homedepot.ca/product/commercial-electric-100-ft-14-gauge-speaker-wire/1000724829). Basically, disconnect the power, and splice into the power cable going into the tunze... the power cable to the tunze has essentially two wires; splice these two wires with the two wires from the speaker wire (they also have two wires), you can use electrical tape or some kind or quick connect.
Does the siphon happen only if you have the new water below the level of the sump? If my new water is at level with the pump, there would not be siphon ?
Ali Alqallaf siphon can potentially happen any time you have a tube of water in the tank that is flowing down anywhere below the tank. This can lead to a gravity siphon where water flows down by gravity downwards through the tube. In the case of my tank. I gave a tube that is in my sump and flows downwards to my DOS in the basement. If the DOS does not seal the tube shut properly or if the tube gets accidentally knocked off, then gravity starts a siphon that can drain my tank into the basement
@@TheBioReef First, Thanks for making the video. It Helped me with my plans big time. What if you put the Dos unit above the sump, continued to run the saltwater supply tube to the basement but the dirty saltwater "tube end" NOT to the basement. Maybe a drain on the same floor. Maybe my brain is backwards but wouldn't this eliminate any chance of gravity drain?
David J yes you can certainly place dos above sump and have a collection container above the sump. But in my case, it don’t have a lot of space beside the tank or in the cabinet... was just easier to have everything below the tank and just plan a fail stop in case of a gravity siphone
Does the system need priming before every water change? Has the solenoid valve ever been needed? How much does the water level in the sump fluctuate when running.
No priming needed. Solenoid is a backup system that has not been needed so far. In theory, this type of water change does not cause any noticeable fluctuations in water level
Hi Amro... impressive work and thanks for sharing... I am going to try to do something similar, just without Neptune... two questions - if you ran your outflow line, in the sump, to the level of the lower limit (or just below), wouldn't the siphon break at the same time as you hit the 'concern' level? (or am I missing some implication?) why not just open the solenoid for all times but noon to 2pm? (wouldn't that also just prevent any drainage, except when your other water-exch 'module' was on?) (maybe that has power/wear concerns? need a NO valve, closed only for 2 h / day, or only while DOS active... :) ) just wondering about implications... that I may have missed... thanks!
Thanks Ryan. Re. Valve. The way the Solenoid work (at least according to my understanding) is that they have a default state (closed or open) and an active state where electricity is used to open or close the valve. I think the Apex valve is closed by default... I think I read somewhere that I can risk damaged to the valve if I kept it open most of the day... about outflow line... you are right... for me, I just didn’t want to bother with mouthing the outflow line at a specific level in the sump... there isn’t much room and lots of wires and things always shift when I do anything there, so I didn’t want to rely on precisely placed lines because they will end up moving on me. Good luck with the Setup
here is what i used www.amazon.ca/Marina-Silicone-Airline-Aquarium-250-Feet/dp/B0002AQI9U/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=marina+airline+tubing&qid=1555286455&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Do you think it’s possible to keep acro no skimmer just fleece roll nutrient export, no dosing other than carbon source, refugium macro algae and Water changes 20% per week with Dosing pump.
The video was very interesting I would love to know how I can learn more about the code. Any suggestions as to where to learn? Thanks for the great info in the video.
I know this is an old video so I hope you get this question. I am trying to set up my DOS to change out 12 gallons of water right now. But, when I set it up in the tasks menu, it changes 12 gallons over 24 hours, and the DOS only runs for a little while every 30 minutes. How can I program it to change out 12 gallons now? In your DOS_ADD you have line 2 that says tdata. What is that and how does it work?
Dos has some features that prevent it from changing a large volume of water in a short period of time. You can try shorting the dosing period from 24 hour to something shorter and the software will let you know when you exceed the limits. You can also try the apex task list, I believe there is an option for a one time water change
@@TheBioReef The task list is how I have it set up but, I will try to write my own code in the advanced set up. On yours, you have line 2 tdata 12:00:00,1,17,13,5,2,88,12,13,9,0,0,10,0. What is that for?
@@michaelgreen7561 actually Michael - that line was setup by the task programming... i just used the task list to do a 2 l water water between 12 to 3 pm, and wrote this line automatically
Are you removing the water and adding freshly mixed saltwater at the same time or are you removing first and then adding new?? Also how many gallons are you doing per water change on one time??
AmroAzul TV do you think if I were to setup where I turn the ATK OFF while it’s removing the water and remove 2.5 gallons or maybe more and then add freshly mixed saltwater and let it drain the removed outside the house and on to the streets. What are your thoughts about that?? And still set high and low level optical sensors in the sump that are already there from the use of ATK to make sure it stops when it reaches the low level sensor mark and then TURN ON ATK and TURN OFF DOS??
It’s been working for me for the past 2 years; my water changes last 2 hours a day, but the pumps are not on this entire time/ the software builds in many breaks during this time. Eventually the pumps and tubing may wear down but you can order new heads. My biggest issue in terms of reliability is the apex power bar; it broke on me twice in about 4 years, and the last break damaged the apex brain :( I wish they made the power bar more robust
@@TheBioReef does it click when it’s on? I just bought two of them and they both make a loud clicking when they are dosing, I’m glad to hear they are still running
@@truereefkeeping6022 oh, I though you meant the solenoid. Hmmm, the DOS does make a sound,l when running but I am not sure if I would describe it as clicking
Thx for a very detialed AWC vid and Error contigency Plans. Im also onto AWC setup but after watching errors safeguards, How Often Did U Encounter any of Those Errors till today ?
Nice redundancy! Would it be unsafe to plumb your RODI for topoff directly into your sump, circumventing the osmolator/topoff tank.. or is this not a good idea?
can you share where you placed your H &L optical sensors relative to the Osmolator optical eye and secondary mechanical float? thanks and great video !
Sure - the H sensor was added to the reefer 250 cutout for stock ATO float valve... about 2” above the osmolator sensors in the return chamber. The low sensor was placed in the baffle between skimmer and return chamber, about an 1” below the water line
yes it is not ideal, but if you work out the math, its actually very minor. also, the new salt water goes by the return, while water is drained from the skimmer chamber...
What if no dosing anything other than water changes. If you get Chems disbalance then supplement that fresh salt water with mags, calcium or what ever.
haven't thought about it much; you can in theory do it with sufficient dosing, but water changes also help with reducing contaminate levels - so there is additional benefits that are not simply replenishment of chemicals
ok listening to your info its good but as a person who does presentations on a daily basis, you need a better flow to this. jumping back and forth between your possible problems and proper operation is confusing. its hard to keep up and flow with how your system is properly function. I would redo this and first explain how your system works completely, then conclude with problems and fixes. good info but you got a thumbs down because of your presentation only. Never less i am installing my AWC and i am going to install my dos higher than the sump and dt so that gravity issues should be cut down tremendously
