I'm glad that you are accomplishing your goals. As a full-time cruiser for the past 17 years, I can not imagine you sailing away to distant ports and expecting a relaxing trip. You're gonna be constantly working on the most complicated boat ever designed. But, maybe that's what makes you happy.... Like your videos. Thanks for sharing.
As someone who works on ocean going cargo ships for a living, naaah what Seeker got is not complicated. It's fun to see Dough figure out problems and come to simular results as have been industry standards for a while :).
I disagree. Just the opposite in fact. By designing redundant over engineered systems instead of flimsy overengineered garbage. I'd feel way more relaxed and comfortable on SV Seeker than 99% of SV's out there.
"Contactor:" old-fashioned super heavy-duty automobile starter-solenoid. Last year I dismantled one on my 30 year-old RV that was inoperative and discovered that the di-electric lube on the big washer had hardened, preventing contact. Scraped it off, reassembled and works perfect. BTW...one of the greatest videos I've seen on RU-vid and I watch hundreds every week for 3 years now.
Indeed a better outcome than breaking or burning something up with all that stuff, most I don't remember, some I do and that's where your at, in the middle of making sure it won't break or under power...Like always, so nice to see Seeker's works be pure positive and working as you designed them, hat's off and clapping of the hands to show positive vibes forever Boss!!!
Doug, I absolutely love the fact you are teaching a young generation of people how to use problem solving skills. This isn't theoretical either, this is real world and in use by a real boat. Bravo sir bravo.
you should really look into orbital valves for the helm if you haven't already. would be awesome way to make the helm easier to steer again using the cylinders you already have mounted to the rudder. its the same system thats used on articulated loaders and dump trucks.
Great Job Doug, really pleased your patience paid off ( with a little help from the Facebookers) Happy 4th July to you all 🇺🇸 🎆 🎇 💥 From us over the Pond in the Uk 🇬🇧
when I was in school, often instructors and peers would 'unveil' projects/knowledge without ever showing how and why it was done like that, just that this was the one way to do it - and you never really learned anything, just memorized the thing for that exact single situation .... but then in life and actual work, that one exact same situation rarely/never was the case I had to deal with; I bet even those that are trained to know the stock factory installation and workings of standardized models find that once in the field later, that old model they memorized has completely been replaced with a new different one - so it would be impossible to memorize future workings that don't exist yet .... in fact once I was told that the biggest problem in education is that *half the stuff that is taught is useless, and they don't know which half* ...just from following along in this video, got my brain working much better to understand - thanks
Lovely to see your joy when the speed controller worked 😊 That should answer all of the “well why make an autopilot, just buy one” comments! Great explanation of back EMF from coils too, buddy 👍👍
Instead of using parallel diodes across the motor, perhaps consider a snubber network consisting of a diode to direct the back EMF, a capacitor to absorb the spike in current ,and a resistor to bleed it off. Parallel diodes can have the same problem you experienced with the SSRs in regards to current flow division.
The nice thing about the contactor is the core usually turns slightly when energised this shares the erosion that the washer gets when it makes contact. Also you can clean it up and give it a new lease of life. Definitely what I would have for reliability and fixability. Fixability some thing that is so easily overlooked in the modern age!
Parallel diods /ssr is a slippery slope for high power applications. Resistors will get more resistance when they get hot, = less current through the warmest resistor, its self balancing. Diodes is the opposite. The warmer the diode, the less resistance. This means if you have two diodes in parallel, and one gets slightly warmer than the other, the warmer one will start letting trough more current than the other diode. Then it will get even warmer, and take more load of the cooler diode, creating even more heat. This quickly turns into a spiral of death, with all the current going through one of the paralleled diodes.
Another great SV Seeker video! Freehand writing on the control panel is quite a contrast to all that ingenious electric and hydraulic work. If you get chance, pick up a label maker. The Brother models work great, are available most everywhere, and don't cost much at all. Once there's one handy, I'll bet you'll find it pretty indispensable.
I love that quote "... turn it on and see why it doesn't work." However, I actually still do love the original Doug Jackson-quote much more: "We'll try it again and again until we will finally run out of wrong ways to do it." Learned that watching You trying to find out how to cast two sets of Hundested variable pitch propellor blades in some backwater Oklahomian yard after having folded up a seventysomething-feet hull out of flat plates "Origami"-style with Your then-wife and a self-built crane for help .... . I also remember Hundested being quite the stinkers when it came to useful informations, of course, but look at how much You "ran out of wrong ways" and what's propelling S/V Seeker today. Thanks for sharing, and thanks for not ceasing to be an inspiration!
We use an accumulator for emergencies. Ours is tied to the davit crane, so we can lower the boat if we need to and have lost all power. I say it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. There is a hand pump connected to pressurize it if needed.
The rudder is definitely most probably Orca Proof. I expect a lot of reliability out of a system that is based in mechanical electrical simplicity. Easy ideas that can be made reliable. I am most happy to see your auto pilot show you that perhaps 15-16 amps is all that's required. As I suspect if all systems are designed in a manor to be efficient I hope your power requirements are not the massive amounts of power you are capable of producing. I was really watching this evolution of auto pilot with high interest ad thank you for taking the time to produce this episode.
AMAZING work. You do a lot of experiemnts and get the fails. But at the end you come to the right hardware because you have to control a tank, spoken in a pictiure.
Doug, you need a soft start circuit (or module) to stop the inrush current from exceeding the solid state relay current limits. The motor controller you used has this circuit in it. If you use mechanical relays at the current load and inrush current you are dealing with without a soft start circuit, you are going to fry or weld the contacts pretty quickly. With how often this is going to be turning on and off, mechanical relays are going to wear out too fast unless you over spec them, reducing the savings. Solenoids are for a few switching cycles per hour and have no arc arresting while also having cheap, copper or brass contacts that will corrode, pit, and weld really easily. Don't expect that solenoid to last very many cycles. 100k cycles? Try maybe a few thousand. A motor contactor with proper arc arresting and contacts that are designed to resist pitting and damage instead of a washer and copper contacts is going to outlast it at that amperage every time. The fly-back voltage isn't the problem. The DC not being self arresting when the contacts are opened is the problem. Any system of enough power has this problem the arc arresting damaging the contacts when running AC or DC. Other than the solenoid, the system you have set up should be pretty bulletproof. The speed controller is designed to have a very long lifespan and looks to be a sealed unit rated for damp weather storage, so locked in that box it should be just fine. You over speced the controlled, so it shouldn't be even getting all that hot, which will extend the life even longer. The only concern of the system is repairing the hydraulic lines, but you have a hydraulic shop onboard, so you are good there. I would also suggest a manual valve to be able to lock the rudder as an option to add in.
@@mod_incllc3235 Please, I worked on the factory floor, not an office. I was an electronics technician and industrial electrician. My little brother is the engineer.
That shit is a foreign language to me Doug. I'm glad you have your Facebook group & understand what they're saying. I hope you enjoy sailing the Seeker for many, many years!
New Sub.. Excellent channel. Excellent Vessel.. Can't wait to join the club. Thanks for sharing in detail the way that you so. That in itself is not an easy task. I'll be here to stay! Can't wait to peruse the archives!
@svseeker for those little connectors with the little numbers that are hard to see, take a sharpie and color it, then wipe it off with your finger while it’s wet. Works 100% of the time, 60% of the time.
A thought, if a simple electronic method was devised for your F/N/R lever. You could pretty easily set up either a fixed or moveable remote station for docking. Likewise you could just do a hydraulic system to give you steering control at the bow
I really liked the power system over view. Didn't realize how beafy your system was...even after watching every one on your videos. Another 'atta boy', for Doug.
I love the hydraulic setup on Seeker. I have a 25 foot Ericson, and a simple tiller autopilot can cost up to $1000! Just insane what they get for these controlled actuators .
For that a contactor is indeed a better choice. For resistive load I've never had a problem with them but for inductive load in my experience it's never been the most reliable option. Manufacturers even talk about that, they say that they put a snubber circuit to help but I've never had good results personally.
The other thing that get you is the high voltage spikes you get from the brush motor. When the field collapses as the brushes hit dead spots, you can get hundreds of voltage spikes on the supply this can exceed the MOSFET's max Vdd in the SSR. The failure is instant and not recoverable.
Just need another diode! 😂. I love your comment about “farm tech” nothing small on the farm. We are moving earth and rocks, not water. I remember my uncle saying, just don’t put your arm near that, and make sure to put in the lock out pins.
Consider the accumulator to function as a shock absorber, preventing pressure spikes when components are turned off or a component demand suddenly stops. I know you have a relief valve, but the flow rate or reaction time may not be sufficient to handle the shock. Just something to consider. An accumulator can be a good piece of insurance for the rest of the system.
Good one Doug, love the lean back as you clicked that switch. done that a few times myself lol. Seeker is looking great cant wait to see you out sailing.
Potentiometers can either have a linear or logarithmic sweep as you turn them. Not sure which one you’re currently using but it’s possible that one over the other may give you more finer control in the speed range that you require. Just noticed that from when the autopilot started responding to full speed only seemed to be about a quarter turn.
a bit of electric basics. a coil of wire is close to a dead short (only the wire resistance. as current flows and the motor turns current begins to level off as inductance increases. this inductance however can reduce and current can increase until motor turns and next coil begins. A lot more happens with motors than people think. Glad though you took the time to test the issues and learn some motor basics. However the heavy current mechanical relay should work well and only need the carbon sanded of when get a bit thick.
So glad to see the autopilot running and much lower amps! Thank goodness! Yup I get the overkill building , looking forward to the reliability. I suggest you just leave the autopilot on all day and let it turn the try to correct the Seekers heading as it it moves in the wind and current. Cheers Warren
It's better to have less electric motors on board a small sea vessel. It's just more cost to replace. Plus they add so much more weight to a vessel at more cost to install. 4 hydraulic pumps can run every part of a boat when it's done right. Way to cut those cost Doug!❕❕👍👍
Doug, have you thought about having an indicator in the pilot house between the window and the wheel to show the rudder position? I remember seeing one on the PRESIDENT during a cruise on the Mississippi R at New Orleans once and Lexi put one on her steamboat GRACEFUL GHOST. It is feedback from the rudder quadrant or shaft to an indicator you can see by looking down from the wheel. It changes its position as the rudder changes position in the same direction.
Motors usually have 6-8 times fla for starting current. The reason it is so high is there is no counter emf to keep down the inrush current. More speed more counter emf less current
The accumulator will relieve the system of shocks. Hit something with the rudder and the accumulator will absorb the shock so it does not need to bend something to relive the force.
That autopilot system is the way to go! heavy duty industrial stuff always outlasts and performs better then your off the shelf commercially available over priced under engineered gimmicks that various industrys try to cram down everyones throats.
I've been watching for a few years and am now wondering when SV Seeker will actually be sailing or are you just avoiding it and adding projects. Remember the K.I.S.S system.
Great work, do you think a delay timer would be beneficial for stopping the steering motor again in case of conditions requiring frequent rudder movements, it may save some wear and tear on the system lessening stop/start cycles, and you could adjust the delay to suit the conditions
I think that the 1000A contacter probably needs a large current to shift the armature it when there’s a big air gap in the magnetic circuit but once that is closed you could dial the current down by quite a lot.
The amount of thickness of steel you are using is directly proprtional to how well you sleep. At least if you use it reasonably. And I think it's used sensibly in this vessel.
If your multimeter has min and max buttons you can connect it across the terminals to measure the spikes, have the power on, connect the meter to read DC in reverse then press max then switch off and see if that works.
Might be an issue for you: Thermal Runaway: SSRs, like all semiconductors, have a negative temperature coefficient. This means that as their temperature increases, their resistance decreases. So if one SSR starts to carry more current (due to the reasons mentioned above), it will get hotter, its resistance will decrease further, and it will carry even more current. This can lead to a condition known as "thermal runaway", which can ultimately destroy the SSR.
I think there's voltage drop between the dc-dc to the pot (on the helm) and back to the box. Making the control voltage lower and so the pwm speed. Rising the voltage of the dc-dc module to compensate would be a good solution.
you're right! The inrush current of inductive loads kills relays (mechanical or not) if it exceeds the max current. Always check the inrush current of your inductive loads and make sure your isolation method can take it, and the associated emf as well. Why don't you take mosfet transistors? How about a switch, that you can activate with 12 V (use a voltage divider from 24V with added benefit of faster switch off time) switching up to 100V DC and supporting up to 100A continuous and 400A pulse, fails safe open due to bonding wires being the weakest link in the conductor chain, has built in reverse diode, a rds_on of less than 10mOhms, for about 1.50$ single quantity? Its a IPP06CN10L MOSFET TO-220 . If you toss 10 in, you can safely switch 1000A !!! What do you think?
The hydraulic acumulator currently acts as a anti hammer device, if the rudder hits something hard the system will not start hammering. As for the cylinder disconnect pins, why not stick them on a hydraulic pin puller, its just another loop but would allow for quick release from the bridge for solo.
You can use some simple (like off the shelf simple, not few components simple) circuits to bypass high inrush current. Like a startup sequence with resistor and after second full voltage
There are contractors that do not work with a big electro magnet but with a motor that turns a switch. Like your big rotary switch but controlled by a motor. As long as your speed controller works, I think it is better to always ramp up and ramp down the speed rather than start and stop at high speed. It will always minimize the current that is left in the coils of the motor when you switch it off. About the accumulator, could you have it charging only by the diesel engine pr the VMAC, but not by the electric pumps? And at the very least not by the batteries but only when the solar panels have too much energy to spare.
If you put a resistor on the negative side of the potentiometer you should be able to lock out the lower voltage range that doesn’t work for the AP and give yourself more fine-grained control over the top end. For example If you’re using at a 50k pot, adding 10k to the negative side makes the minimum voltage 0.8v instead of 0. It looks like you weren’t using any setting less than 50% on the pot so you could even add as much as 50k to make the minimum voltage 2.5V and get a lot more control over that 2.5V to 5V range. You can play around with different values to get more range or more control.
I know it doesn't need to be said, but you are doing great and ignore the haters. As you know, your doing what many said can't be done, But you are doing it even if you need to redo some of it.
Hey Doug, I was wondering if you alternate smashed fingers from left hand to right hand. Are the toes in the rotation? Remember, Safety Comes.......eventually.
I noticed you don’t have a manual bypass valve in parallel with that lock solenoid. I can see how that valve failing closed could lock the steering up.
It's actually pretty common to switch the negative side in electronics. NPN vs PNP (NPN is more common) Transistors and whatnot. It's also worth trying the same thing with the SSR's, but I imagine you're not going to blow more of them up in the name of testing...
You can in fact balance the boat with the sails, and require less rudder input than if unbalanced. In anything less than perfect conditions though, I worry that you are underestimating how much movement will be required by the rudder to make the autopilot happy. I think you're going to find that your rudder moves too slowly at the lower settings and the accumulator tank may be useful after all. Time will tell, looking forward to seeing the results of the sea trial!
Yeah, I'm going to be interested to see. My bet is that it's going to be constantly tweaking the rudder as the boat pitches and rolls in swells. All the sailboats I have sailed do that.
Maybe more work than you care for, but you could have a high wattage current limiting resistor in series with solid state relay "1", when it turns on the LED turns on and you use the voltage driving the LED to turn on solid state relay "2" that shorts out the current limiting resistor. I think SATA connectors for computer disks have a similiar scheme to charge the filter capacitors through a current limiting resistor - they connect first because the pins are longer. When the connector is pushed in fully, the current limiting resistor is bypassed. The current limiting resistor value should be chosen as if the load was a dead short, which it kind of is for a brief period.
The longer pins on a SATA connector are just ground. There's no point having such a setup because the load is small and the connector generally isn't hotplugged.
Could try multiple "Darlington Pairs" to get current multiplication. Cousin used them for control of a narrow gauge passenger carrying locomotive, 2 hp 24v speed control, 30 years ago, may be an idea.
Hi Doug, how much pressure does the system build when pushing the rudder at ~16 amps? It would seem to me to be a rather useful thing to monitor, say with a pressure gauge, as an insightful measure of normality for the rudder function. the pwm controller potentiometer can then be calibrated in PSI which will be useful for testing in heavy seas. I would also think a similar monitor for the hunterstead would tell you if you are eating up cutlass bearings as things age.
Hey, that boat that signaled you around 24:30 looks like a George Buehler Diesel Duck. A lot of these boats are home built. I wonder if the owner is a follower of your channel.
that motor may only pull 50 amps while running but motors pull a lot more current on startup, A motor like that can probably spike over 300 amps for several milliseconds before it has started to tune, then the current will quickly drop till its free running. and the more load that it has to move to start going the longer that peak current will be present. you need to use a current probe with an oscilloscope to see the peak draw, your standard multi-meter isn't fast enough.
