Now, this is what Canada needs! Build our own fighter, one that meets our needs, and employ thousands of Canadians doing it. This would make me a proud Canadian.
Try suggesting this kind of argument in the US the next time they're buying a refuelling tanker or a presidential helicopter or something. Also note Sweden - 9 million people who can make their own jet fighter that's compatible with NATO.
juscurious Maybe so, but nothing coming out of the US these days suits Canadian needs like a long range Arrow fighter. And the plane was so advanced, with some modifications to its weaponry it could outfly most contemporary fighters.
Same here. Given the sorry record of t he F-35 program we (the US) really need a backup plan. There's already talk of putting the F-22 back in production or adopting the latest Saab fighter. An updated Arrow with the advanced avionics from the F-35 might be the thing. Of course, it will take a coup d'état in the US Air Force to make it happen.
I hope you're right, but I'm skeptical. The F-35 design was compromised when the Marines insisted on a VTOL version. Everything I've read indicates it's going to be a mediocre performer, with only stealth features and its advanced avionics system (if they're ever fully debugged) going for it. I'll believe it's successful when third parties who aren't beholden to the USAF actually subject them to realistic testing.
Mmmmmm, Ya! Well, don't get TOO excited... I doubt very much this will ever happen, this seems to be a collection of ''out of context'' videos strung together for effect but hey, Nice freaking dream though... Sigh!
It just don't happen. I love the Arrow. I would start balling tears of pure joy if they actually did revive the project. But let's face reality. It's just not going to happen. Canada doesn't have the money, we don't have the influence, and it would certainly piss off the Americans and possibly break one of the treaties we signed for NORAD. I want it to happen more than anyone else. But reality has to set in and it's just not going to happen.
Rehman Sattar lol aukaat nahi hai tumhaari government ke pass isa lene ke aur btw it's was an old model new one will cost more than f 35 with cost around 60 million dollar per jet. Which your shit currupt government doesn't have
F35 is going to be over $80m per unit. An modernized Avro Arrow would be far more expensive, if it follows the US standard of building fighter aircraft, it's going to be over $130m per unit easily. A significant part of the cost in fighter development, is the fighter development part. The more units you can sell, the cheaper it becomes. The F35C was quoted at $130m/unit before procurement orders started coming in. Now they're saying it could drop as low as $75m/unit. You know how Canadians are complaining about the cost of housing a few dozen Syrian refugees right now? Imagine how much complaining you're going to do when we're staring at the multi-billion dollar cost of developing our own fighters.
I installed telephone and computer lines in the plant those planes were designed and built in. There were still a few old timers who were involved with that amazing plane! They still had such enormous pride, and were showing me schematics and models, photos etc it was an amazing six months working there everyday. My brother in law and In were treated to a viewing of a jet engine in the test room!! Amazing!!!! Dufusbaker really dropped the stupid ball, allowing the Americans to talk him into buying useless missile defence systems for the Alaska boarder, as though the Russians were gonna fly across and be demolished by that garbage! The Russians would have knocked those useless fireworks out in minutes had they have been stupid enough to pull off such an outrageous attack!! The Americans knew we couldn't afford both programs, and so they talked him into the retarded option. Oh, and as a bonus the brainpower Canadians all got sweet jobs after being let go by the PM whose name I can no longer stomach typing - ya they started this obscure program called NASA or something! Jack Canada
This would be such a wise move by the government . The pride I felt just imagining our own super sonic jets defending Canada’s sovereignty would be felt be all Canadians . The time is right ! The plane is more than we could dream of ! Let’s do this Canada !!!🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
Go Canada! This has very strong echoes of TSR2. What happened to that sounds *uncannily identical.* And then UK lost its aircraft manufacturing to the benefit of the US? Why? Sounds like power-plays behind the scenes to me. *Does this sound familiar to Canadians too?* Go Canada! Way to go. BTW just make sure the Chinese and Russians don't hack your data. Give Cybersecurity priority number 1. The more the diversity in the air, the better. Good luck and all the best, Rob.
It didn't lose it's manufacturing - it is a large aerospace manufacturer and bits of those 7xx aircraft are made in the UK. US companies need big juicy defence contracts to pay for research and development (e.g. the 747) and there's not much point in the UK trying to compete on subsidy terms so it's better to supply parts to the people who do.
Bring it back! They are still ahead of our time. New avionics, current engines, supercruise capbility, super manouverability and you've got the best fighter in the sky, and I love our aircraft. It's just that the Arrow is a better solution to our needs as we need an air superiority weapon!
I wouldn't say the Arrow Mk3 would be ahead of everything else out there, but it certainly would be competitive, especially if maneuverability could be enhanced (the more powerful engines would definitely help). Stealth characteristics could also be incorporated. At half the cost of F35, I would buy it for MY air force (if I had one lol).
If the Arrow were made today with modern AESA radar and modern computers/avionics, it would easily be one of the Top 10 fighters in the world right now
I'm all for this, just do it!! Hope i'm around long enough to see it fly. So that Arrow that woke me up as a seven year old in 1958 as it broke the sound barrier, to a Super Arrow today is a dream come true. The dividends to the air industry would be enormous in jobs and technology.
Building the Arrow would be one of the most exciting and satisfying projects ever undertaken in CANADA it would ignite a wave of national pride and enthusiasm for home grown technology and excellence As a young boy I SAW THE ORIGINAL ARROW fly over the east end of Toronto.It was beautiful ,graceful, noisy and awe inspiring TO SEE IT FLY AGAIN WOULD BE A DREAM COME TRUE
I think as interceptor, there is no need to be stealth and this is where the Arrow designed for and strong at. In that point of view, F-35 is not suitable. But the term "defending", is ambiguous. Fighting the invader is also "defending", so it is a normal aerial combat. If your opponent either go stealth or has a very weak radar signature, while you have a relative strong radar signature, you will probably out run by enemy. In that case, you fail in "defending" On cost view, I see there is not much change in the overall airframe. I doubt whether adding all those 4th generation feature can fully implemented in it. I simply means reinvent the plane.
The major advatage this plane would have is that it was big, given modernization and minturization that means that an Arrrow 2 or Slient Arrow, would have a lot of space to put many modern equipment to make this into a Gen 4.5+ fighter, but it is important to remember that the original avro was designed as a bomber interceptor, not a multirole fighter, from what the people on this program indicate though is that Canada really needs an interceptor more than a multirole fighter. Arrow group might want to look at getting Boeing on board, they have some experience with a stealth delta wing design from the x-32 project, which was boeings entry to the JSF program, they might be able to take the arrow into gen 5, but then again a gen 5 interceptor might be excess to requirements.
I'm from the USA, and I wish to see the AVRO in the air. I know from experience what the DOD does to stifle competition to build overly expensive airplanes.
You don't actually buy into this pipe dream, do you? if the AVRO was truly scrapped due to American interference, as the Canadians claim, then don't you think that the technology would have already found it's way into allied aircraft. With regards to the claims made about this aircraft it sounds like Starlite.
Are you serious? The Avro Arrow was the first plane built out of Titanium, after the plane was cancelled and all plans and all 5 prototypes destroyed, one went missing. Next the americans designed and built a Titanium plane with a lot of the same aerodynamic characteristics called the SR-71 Blackbird. The Blackbird only happened due to stealing the base design from the Arrow. You can look it up it is easily available information.
hommie789 The SR-71 was a limited use spy aircraft. The Avro proponents are claiming they can put all those features into a low cost 5th gen fighter. All I'm saying is that the hype is strong in this one.
Synnerization The Arrow was a plane that was full of technology that some say was 20 years ahead of it's time. I was not saying the SR-71 was a complete knock off of the Arrow just the aerodynamic design and the titanium body were taken from the Arrow design. It was altered to fit the needed application. The Arrow could and should be resurrected just to add competition for Mcdonald Douglas and the others building fighters. The Orenda Iroquois engine had unprecedented thrust that engines today are trying to duplicate. The only remaining engine is being restored in Fort St. John by Jet City and it is a monster. That platform with 65 years of ongoing technology and refinement and I am willing to bet it would be a industry leader.
I mentioned this to Mp Blaine Calkins of the conservative party about 15 years ago, and he also mentioned it in parliament shortly afterward. Yes, this would spark the Canadian spirit.
No, it's obsolete. If Canada wants to have a indigenous fighter, make a new one from scratch. Avro is an interceptor and to make it into a fighter with thrust vectoring would cost WAY more than an F35.
Ian: It won't be an Arrow. And it won't be a Delta wing. If Canada does build an indigenous fighter aircraft, it'll prob end up looking and working just like the other 5th Gen ones. The F35/22, J20, or PAK FA. And it's gonna cost you a whole lot more than the F35, because it's gonna start from scratch. The Arrow's design is obsolete and useless in this day and age. But if Canada insists.... building a low cost design will mean that the reborn Arrow will be a 2nd rate fighter at best. No match in combat performance to its would be adversaries.
Deus .. I cannot see Canada invading North Korea anytime soon ;) ;) .. however I agree Delta wings seem to have fallen out of fashion .. If they were to build it to the same concept then It would look like a Mirage 2000 i think...However I agree with your notion that it would look very 5th gen..hmm - as a stand off missile platform/multirole aircraft the original design with updates and more modern building techniques could still have a use. Same as a modern TSR2.. time will tell I suppose if this ever gets off the ground ( Pun intended ;))
Ian: Or it will probably end up as a compound delta with canards, just like the Eurofighter Typhoon, or the Rafale. Fighters these days need to be maneuverable, especially against threats like the new Sukhois. It has less to do with fashion, than functionality. Deltas are pretty. And they're fast. But that's all they're good for. They also need longer runways as a result of their higher take off and landing speeds. Not good should they need to operate from highways that might have short straights, should their airbase get bombed out.
Deus ..prime example was the Gloster Javelin ... The Arrows contemporary had it been put into service - Big stand off missile platform ..big radar . but do you know what this plane reminds me of seeing some of the concept videos on U Tube of the Arrow .. A Canadian 'version' of a MiG 31 Foxhound - about as big and similar looking , Probably performing a similar function.
Yeah, lets start production of a 3rd generation fighter over half a century after the design rolled out. Shouldn't take that much work. While you are at it, maybe you should update the Spitfire and Sopwith Camel too...
***** If you don't the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars in the development of an aircraft for which their is no demand in a market already saturated with unused production capacity... Who am I to argue with you about it?
Canadians, all we do is dream, never follow through on anything. Imagine if one party leader just uttered the words of "Avro revival" we all would be voting for them! That's how proud we are of the airplane.
This has to be a joke. One thing the F-35 has that the Arrow doesn't is a stealth air frame and if it looks anything like the reborn Arrow in this video with all of those curvy contours its going to have a radar cross section big as hell! Don't get me wrong; the Arrow was a fine aircraft for its time and how Canada let whoever snooker them into buying something else will be a forever mystery but if the new Arrow looks anything like this here its going to be a flop.
The Avro Arrow is a beauty. Canada should tell everyone else to piss-off and just build her. She was a kick ass bird and with modern systems and electronics she'd be damn near perfect.
looks and sounds like one sold aircraft and to thank the Arrow was in flight back in 1959 the aircraft and aero space world has came a long way. good going Canada sounds like one hell of a aircraft. This sort of thing that could have came from Skunk Works and you may become the leaders in fighter aircraft as it looks like you were way ahead of any fighter aircraft flying in the world in 1959. good job thanks.for posting this.
Several aircraft were designed based on the Avro Arrow, though it's impossible to tell which because delta wing aircraft had existed before (as far back as the 1930s the germans were experimenting with the concept) and the British Gloster Javelin predating the Arrow as a jet engine delta wing fighter.
The Arrow was hart felt pride by all Canadians. Not that it was a fighter that was way ahead of it's time or could out do anything back in the 1950's and most of todays fighters. but that it was ours. I hope for that alone we build the Arrow again. And while were at it.... I truly feel we have the brain power that could build a better then we got Sub too.
We cant build the Arrow..... Canada signed a treaty with the US that we would never build a fighter jet again when the program was scraped...... That is why we are not doing it now and buying the F35.
binaway it’s faster than most aircraft today and it was 30 years ahead of its time so instead of making outrageous statements with nothing to back them don’t say anything
News Anchor is stupid for comparing the F35 to the Arrow. Two different planes for different purposes to full-fill different tasks on different eras. Although the Arrow was great yesteryear, the air defenses we have now are 1000 times better than any intercepting plane. It is penetrating enemy airspace is what is need it, not defending your own.
I am an engineer hired to work on the EH-101 and witnessed first-hand its cancellation in Ottawa by uninformed bureaucrats. Since then hired by Hughes Aircraft to work on two air traffic control systems as a Senior Engineer. We need an independent committee independent of govt to perform feasibility study with a mandate to determine this interesting opportunity for Canada and if it is a go that no federal govt in power during the course of development be able to cancel since we lost credibility with the UK and Italy on the cancellation of the EH-101.
Avro blows them out of the air at 25 miles with Canadian built missles, just make sure you don't get any debris from the wasted jet in the intakes heading for your target
OH HOW I WISH. I was at Boscome when Beumont took it up for its last ever flight hes words after was never flown a plane at 50 ft with hands of controls and it flow on its own compo tors
Brian Davies TSR2 wouldn't have a role in current airforce. Tactical strike can be carried out by many platforms, Strategic bombing by trident, and reconnaissance by satellites and drones.
It would be awesome to see Canada build a modernized Avro Arrow. Avro should emulate Saab by purchasing from or collaborating with foreign suppliers to obtain the best components (e.g. engines from G.E./USA, AESA radar from Selex/Italy, etc.) while still performing design, integration, testing, and manufacturing functions in-house. A modernized Arrow would obviously fulfill different mission requirements than the F-35, but as a long-range, high speed interceptor to cover vast Canadian territory, the Arrow could be a great fit. In that regards, the Arrow might be better compared to (a non-stealthy version of) China's J-20. Good luck from this American, hope Canada puts their mind and resources towards executing a successful program. Sometimes second chances do come around.
They should totally make a new Arrow. F-35s are grossly over-priced trash inferior to everything that everybody else is using short of the prop planes used as fighters by dirt-poor countries. Their only major selling point is their supposed stealth, which they sacrificed every other characteristic for, but they aren't even significantly stealthy in practice because their detectability is reduced significantly only for radars that are directly ahead of them, and to some extent directly behind, which is hardly useful in the real world. Radars everywhere else can see F-35s almost as easily as they can see any other planes. F-35s are almost as big a joke in the world of military aviation as the tiny but fearsome stealth fighter that Iran built out of wood and paper mache to try to scare everybody. Certainly the new Arrows should be competitive with Grippen IIs, Eurofighters, and Rafaels, and Canada had better have them available because soon the U.S. will replace all its fighters and attack jets with F-35s, so it will not be able to defend itself from anybody that happens to send in a real fighter jet.
NerdVision the new arrow would be just as big a failure as the old one. It never carried weapons had no avionics to speak of but it was god gift to aviation? It was crap that got cancelled before it broke the country
Problem: I don't want us to spend $20+ billion dollars on an air superiority fighter that will 1) never be used for air superiority, 2) is probably going to be as problematic to develop as the F22, and 3) we're going to be stuck with it for 40 years after finding out we really didn't know how to make a fighter and it's now a massive boondoggle.
As an American veteran, I say GO BUILD IT! it was shameful how this project was cancelled and the developer of the titanium skin was used to build the SR- 71. Avro was a generation ahead in design and the only American fighter to come close was the F-108 Rapier which was also cancelled and its manufacturer gobbled up the other Monopolist aviation companies.
My father worked on the Arrow, and I got to see it fly at the 1959 CNE air show in Toronto. It wad beautiful. I will never forgive the Conservatives for scrapping it, and decimating the Canadian aerospace industry.We still have not recovered.
@@johnandrews3568 Really, were you there? Tell me, just what was that big, white, delta winged aircraft with Canadian markings on it that flew just off shore at the 1959 CNE air show, that I attended with my mom? Actually that was the last time it flew. Or at least that's what they say. You might want to google stuff before you imply someone lying. I just love it when someone whom I've never met tries to tell me what did, or did not happen in my life. Have a nice day.
@@gra6649 I'm not implying you're lying, I'm suggesting your memory is misty. At the 1958 CNE airshow the Arrow made an appearance from September 5 and 6, 1958. The Arrow program was cancelled on Black Friday in February 1959. The 1959 CNE airshow happened in early September 1959, six months AFTER the program was cancelled and the Arrows cut up. I just love it when someone makes a mistake and covers it up by suggesting the person correcting them is calling them a liar. Seriously... give your head a shake. And the CNE airshow in '58 was NOT the last time the Arrow flew. Testing on all airworthy airframes happened right up to Feb. '59.
@@gra6649 Cheers... it was a long time ago. You're so lucky to have seen it fly. I'm envious. FWIW my FIL was an engineer who worked on the Arrow's avionics.
It is still a viable platform as an interceptor , it is also perfect for long range missions , it would also be near untouchable to any enemy fighter if equiped with new engines , lighter airframe and modern avionics , perfect for our vast territory
I'll just file this under "things that would make a great movie". I am a huge fan of the Arrow and a frequent groaner of 'what could have been' if we had kept on as a groundbreaking leader, vastly ahead of anyone else in the aerospace field for supersonic aircraft. But, this will never happen and would never work.
I don't agree. Let's take a similar look at Israel, I'm sure back in the 70's no one would've thought Israel would've been one of the worlds largest weapons manufacturers and dealers. Technological breakthroughs aren't bound by lines on a map.
zedfan4598 ...and yet it's still one of the worlds largest drone manufacturers and distributors. Thanks to where they are sitting on the defense industry chain they can afford to try such things. As a country you can dump a few billion dollars into a project if the outcome is sales and service contracts for at least 2 countries or which results in a profit to cost ratio of 8:1 (minimum). It'll be going on 16yrs now I've been working in the American defense industry if the new Arrow performs as advertised its a game changer. Right now the F35 is not doing that.
It's a thing of the past, sure it would have been revolutionary if it weren't cancelled but now it's obsolete and would be easily be outdone by the people who actually pose a threat. It'd be cool to see a singular functional one fly tho.
+777bumble Even as it was built it still out performs anything in the air today, with modern materials the sky would be no limit. So what's your point?
An American's take: Looking at the design, and her upgrades, she should be built. There is no reason not to. We as Americans don't even like the F-35 for what it has already cost us out of our own tax money.
+Bacon Snot With todays jamming technology, stealth is over the top. ISrael has jams for S-300 and is working on one for S-400. Stealth planes are vulnerable to ww2 style radar which russia has brought into the 21 st century and makes just to be able to see stealth aircraft. Besides cost for one f35 makes a huge dent in the total cost of rebuilding the F105
theaviationist.com/2013/09/19/f-22-f-4-intercept/ Iranian ground radar tracked and gave directions to Iranian F4s to intercept U.S. MQ-1 drone flying in international airspace off Iran, but Iran didn't know about the drone's F22 escort. "By international law, the notion of a country's sovereign airspace corresponds with the maritime definition of territorial waters as being 12 nautical miles (22.2 km) out from a nation's coastline." Iran has 1L13 "Nebo" VHF radar, Kolchuga (VHF, UHF and SHF), Matla-ul-fajr (VHF), Gamma Radar (low frequency band), Vostok radar (VHF) and other radars, and it didn't detect F22 threat.
Avro Arrow would be a major achievement for Canada's military, economy and even geopolitics, It is a 10 to 20 years project depending on several factors. I hope our government will have enough far sighted people with great patriotism to put the Arrow project into reality as soon as possible. I hope that the military industrial complex of the United States has far less influence and secret hands with our government than in the sixties, its secret hands would be the only obstacle to Arrow revival.
Probably add canards to improve maneuverability, the DSI, TVC, MBDA Meteor and IRIS-Ts will keep the Arrow up with today's fighter technology. This is actually one good concept IMHO.
Who ever came up with the idea of ressurecting a 60 year old design for a jet interceptor doesn't understand modern air combat or modern warfare in general.
Tin Man I don't think that you understand that this jet was WAY ahead of its time and even today, on paper it surpassed what we have now. Just a matter of refining and updating to have one of the best fighters in the world
What appears to be being said here is: "We've made a plane that beat the all the standards of the world back when, and the ones for some time that followed... We can do it again. And we won't to do that much redesigning/updating to do iut." What many overlook is part of why the Arrow project was cancelled: Suspicion of KGB spies in the works at Avro. Six years later, the USSR introduces the Fox Bat... A plane that can fly almost as high & fast as the Arrow, and outrun what Amercia has for fighter/interceptors. In the late-70's, a Fox Bat pilot defects to Japan. His plane is quickly collected by U.S. forces & examined... Their findings: Much of the Fox Bat's design is like that of the Avro Arrow!
Have you bothered to understand the reason for the F35 delays watch some documentrys on how bad the whole project is managed how much its gone over budget for the jets for the Americans to use, let alone the customers.
J Reynolds Have you bothered to understand the success of the program, the capabilities of the jet, the pioneering technology and the history of similar leaps in technology? Every single one of the trailblazing fighter jets have had problematic developments. The f111 was called all sorts of things by media. Turned out to be a formidable weapon platform without peer for 40 years. The f14 had at least 2 accidents including the death of 1 pilot during test phase and was also extremely expensive. It went on to dominate for decades. The point is you dont design and build a new jet for parody. That is pointless. You design to be superior in the future. Just to drive the point home, the f35 recently participated in exercise green flag, where it fought successfully in contested airspace and wasnt shot down once in the 2 weeks. It performed the same mission the f16 and a10 had previously performed and had losses on.
Look at the supporting army's navy's and air-force for those mentioned jets, its easy to say they all worked perfectly because they are the dominant force. They dont fight against the same tech or numbers. Add to that the propaganda you have just recycled for the US Gov/Military. Why would the public be aware of have access to half the things that go wrong. What I am referencing is actual budgeting facts!
The same thing happened to the TSR 2. All mounds destroyed no one knows who gave the order to do so. The Arrow was one hell of an aircraft. The TSR2 was just as good. I believe that the yanks had a big part in destroying both moulds for both aircraft.
+Joe Comrack the Arrow was faster than anything else in the sky when it was built. It's larger wings made it maneuverable. The F104 was an interceptor plain and simple. It was the fastest plane America had at the time, but it's small wings meant it wasn't a dogfighter. It was designed to get a missile in range of a soviet bomber, that was it. The Germans tried to make a dogfighter out of it. Probable because of its low cast compared to other fighters of the time. Living near Luke AFB when they were training German pilots, there were lots of accidents in the early 70's. I think the new Super arrow has potential. From the front it looks like the YF23 which outperformed the F22. If they can make it more manouverable with a delta wing it could do very well in a ground support role.
The CF-104 was the replacement for the Canadair Sabre's then serving in Europe, as the RCAF shifted from the Air Defence role to a nuclear penetration strike role in the early 60's. The Arrow was never intended for that role (and the CF-104 was a poor choice, we should have bought the larger and more capable F-105 strike aircraft instead) We bought the BOMARC surface to air missile system instead of the Arrow (as our leadership foolishly agreed with the infamous UK 1957 Defense White Paper that determined manned interceptors were obsolete), then when BOMARC quickly proved to be useless, we backfilled with the CF-101B Voodoo for the role the Arrow would have filled. The sad part is that the Arrow project was effectively dead in 1959 regardless of the state of the aircraft, as there was no workable weapon system for it at the point of cancellation (the US had dropped out of the Sparrow III project because the system didn't work). Had it survived another 3 years, it could potentially have used the YF-12's weapon system, which had become available in the interim (and would later be developed into the F-14's system, as it was the basis for the F-111B's weapons system)
@Kenneth Cohagen: The CF-105 was a leading edge design for an interceptor to be sure, but it was quickly matched/eclipsed by technologies found in aircraft like the A-5 Vigilante, F-111, YF-12, etc. Even some aspects of the F-4 Phantom could be deemed superior to the CF-105. By the mid-late 1960's, much of the Arrow's advancements were essentially old hat.
While I am no pilot or engineer, the concept of our own all weather fighter/bomber is intriguing. But the "delta wing" has seen better days and seriously needs to step up the intake and exhausts to conform more with "stealth" aspects prevalent with today's designs. All other things being equal, we can do it better.
I would love to see this plane revived, it is much like the TSR2, another brilliant plane that was never built because of american pressure and all plans and tools destroyed. From the latest reports the F35 is a flying lemon.... or it would be if any of them could fly :) Keep your independence and build it..... Cheers
F35 isn't a lemon, it's been flown and it's done what what was expected of, to have stealth, excellent data link connectivity giving everyone an excellent picture of the battle field, good BVR capabilities backing up other assets. That's what it was designed to do, and it does it well.
Ian Ryan your an idiot. The f35 is being put though it paces now and the software will be loosened up! Its a flying computer! All you so called arm chair areospace engineers need so stop drinking
forgot half the equation ... "engineer". Time is always a fact and money can buy some time, yet time is king. Unless you already have detailed plans ... if that is what you are saying. So you just build a "better" toy?
I'm from the USA. I think Canada should build it. It is a beautiful aircraft and hopefully will perform better than it's original incarnation. This will also push the USA to produce better aircraft than the F35. God only knows why they are pushing so hard on a sub par next gen fighter.
There isn't a hope in hell for this type of thing. The political and practical appetite for this is less than zero. All this does is give citizens some false nostalgia, national pride and the pain of it never having been completed in the 50's. The plane was advanced, but not even close to what it would have been with the production engine. Like many, I would love to believe this, but the mind reels at the myriad of reasons why it is absurd.
That would be so awesome to revive that sucker with modern electronics and systems. Please Canada, do it. Take our equalization payments and put them somewhere up your pipeline and make this happen. It just MAKES SENSE!
Please bring it back, not only is it an original Canadian design but it is also economical. Plus with upgraded avionics it can become the great plane it was meant to be.
We gotta have some of these. With Elta avionics and maybe an integral targeting suite taylor made by Astronautics flush internal. Active LERX for high AOA. It would be LETAL!
Incredibly unstealthy. It'd be fast as hell, but MiGs would be clubbing baby seals on Avro Arrows. They';d engage well beyond visual range and knock the Arrow right out of the sky. But sure, build them. We'll still be there with F-35s and F-22s, and swarms of Predator C/Avengers to kill the MiGs.
JeanLafitte I hate to say it but this is true. The Arrow would be fast but being fast is only a small part of the fight. Would it be so fast it could get away from today’s fighters ? I’m not sure running away is a good plan at all. The F22 would dominate the sky as the Arrow ran away. Arrow would be a good plane for the roll that the SR71 played but not a good fighter.
Listen there is a reason why the US cancelled the XB-70. Fast and high does not protect you- why the hell do you think the Mig-25 is out dated? the Mig-25 can do what the Arrow wanted to do: fly at Mach 3, at 70,000 ft. And it is now obsolete
Do you actually believe your own nonsense, or that anyone else does? Bullshit. Before you imply I work for Lockheed Martin, I shall ask do you work for Avro? What a load of tripe...
Although I'm very patriotic for my country (USA) I say the F35 is not worth the trouble. I bet a F18 can top it. Scram jet though can hit mach 7 that's what the US focus should be on.
Which is why you guys should totally use an obsolete model and turn it from an interceptor designed to go into fast straight lines to defeat slow and heavy bombers to a multi-role fighter, something that it was NEVER designed for. You guys think the F35 is overpriced and hyped?! I wish to see Canada pull this off. They will bankrupt their country more if they go with this dumb idea. You, like the news crew above are comparing things that aren't the same.
You are taking a 60's era interceptor and adding modern thrust, expensive engines with vectoring in the hopes it will be a fighter. This is like adding this shit to a mig25, which was meant to only go fast in a straight line. That's literally the Avro in a nutshell. The cost will be too much for Canada, a country that, while has a well trained force, is much smaller in nature and spends much less on it's military compared to it's peers. Hell, Canada can barely afford to keep some of it's c-130s flight capable as they have a lack of spare parts. They even raided a museum for parts for crying out loud! It simply cannot afford to build such a very large project and redo an old resign that was meant to fulfill a different role, for an aircraft that NEVER saw any service! Diefenbacker did Canada a good service by gettinga bunch of Voodoos fora dirt cheap price that served Canada well and produced well respected pilots.
It's 2020 and Canadians are STILL dreaming of their Glory Days. Just like Al Bundy and Bruce Springsteen. If you get tired of watching, just DO something.
You Canadians were well and truly shafted by the the yanks over your Avro Arrow. Just like us Brits were shafted by them over the TSR 2. I know Maggie Thatcher was interested in revisiting the TSR 2 but although its technology and spec were still superior to current airframes at the time, it didnt happen. I truly hope it makes financial sense for you and you actually do it rather than buy that poxy F35. Best of luck.
Kevin ... The TSR 2 was cancelled due to pressure from America for Britain to buy the F111 .. Look it up when you have finished sucking off the F35 pilots...nom nom nom
Ian Johnson your full of bullshit. The british were encourage to take care of there ownselves. How di you warmongers get to be such butt hurt crybabies
Problem is, the Arrow was fast, but that was all. In a dogfight it would be obliterated. In an era of multi-purpose fighter needs, its a Edsel. Good history, hell of a jet for its time...but that was then.
Multi purpose fighter are good at doing many things but at a mediocre level. This is the problem with the F35 and that's what the designer of the F16 said. We have the people to design cutting edge jets, we could built our own interceptors, fighters,bombers,etc....we need more politica and population will.
The Avros capabilities are highly exaggerated. Its just an oversized F- 106 Delta Dart. Its old technology, nothing special at all. It would very easily be shot down
+shecanatakeitcaptain However, there are two movable "flaps" on the back of the wings of the Avro Arrow. Which can be seen operating on take off and land.
+Mark Harrison They are ailerons, not flaps. It is aerodynamically impossible for a delta wing to fly with flaps down. They would act as elevators and make it dive. If you disagree, find me a video of a delta wing plane that has "flaps". Concorde did not have them, Space Shuttle did not have them...
But of course Concorde had ''Flaps''! Just not as you know them. What happened is that fuel was pumped to the rear of the aircraft, moving the centre of gravity aft and making the nose pitch up. The auto-pilot counteracted that by lowering both ailerons and giving the wing a ''flap'' effect. In fact, the control surfaces were called ''flapperons''. No reason at all why a delta wing such as the Arrow could not do the same thing!
Can I gently suggest that rather than go through the pain and cost of designing and testing a new unproven aircraft it would be less risky, quicker and less expensive to buy into the latest version of the Typhoon? Canada has the ability right now to assemble the various modules (wings, fuselage, cockpit etc) made in Europe as they are now and build a specific variant for Canadian demands and environment. It could build its own avionics and warfighting systems or take what it needs from the European packages that are used in the different bespoke variants built here in Europe for the UK, Spain, Italy and Germany. It is already an international project so adding Canada as a partner or customer is not an issue. After all Airbus send bigger modules to Alabama to build US specification A320 passenger aircraft. A Canadian built 'Tranche 4' Typhoon would be as much a Canadian aircraft as an Avro Arrow MkII but the big difference is it is a proven baseline fighter, interceptor and improving GA asset. We in the UK are only buying the F-35 as it it replaces our old Harriers and provides a lower cost carrier born strike asset. Plus we make a shedload of money out of building 20% of every aircraft LM build. We will probably make more money out of the 3,000 to be built than the 140 we will buy. The F-35C offers nothing to Canada as it has no carriers, Canada never flew Harriers so the F-35B is of zero interest so it is only the F-35A that offers anything to Canada. And the Typhoon beats it on everything dynamic except 'stealth'. So why bother?
The arrow was so far ahead in 1957 it is still relevant today, the F-35 would not be able to catch it and couldn't maneuver with it in a fight and the F-35 5th gen stealth has already been defeated by electronic detection improvements by all the relevant aircraft manufacturers in the world.
As it is described ion that video, the proposed 5th generation Arrow is pictured having both Mach 3.5 variable air intake AND a completely clear bubble canopy. Mach 3.5 flight speed calls for heat resistant materials (like titanium and special steel, as opposed to resin based composites and aluminium alloys) and the kinetic heating of flight at that regime is NOT COMPATIBLE with any available clear material suitable for a bubble canopy. Unless someone knows how to make a canopy out of curved diamond, a Mach 3.5 capable airplane would require flat sided panels of hardened glasses with metallic frames.
please build the Arrow.. Im a fan of it all the way from australia! Also encourage the UK to get back to work on the TSR2 project. We dont need to buy american especially if the F-35 is all we have on offer. I'd totally spam my local member to reccomend TSR2's for strike and Arrows for defense, Make Australia great again! lol
Good idea. This would add a component to round out the less than spectacular performance of the F-35 and F-22, which cost ridiculous amounts of money just for stealth and avionics.
