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Bach's Orgelbüchlein: Learning to learn - Vater unser im Himmelreich, BWV 636 

Dr. Tim Rishton
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How to learn a new piece of music. Learning to play Bach on the organ, using the "Little Organ Book" or Orgelbüchlein. Music performance from here: • Bach's Orgelbüchlein: ...
For all the Orgelbüchlein episodes in order, see
• Bach's Orgelbüchlein (... .
For some background information, see the
introductory film on • Bach's Orgelbüchlein: ... .
This episode was recorded in Bjerkreim Church in Norway. Details of the organ can be found on ryde-berg.no/opus/051-bjerkre... .
It replaces an earlier film that was incomplete.
The series is presented by Dr Tim Rishton www.rishton.eu

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27 фев 2023

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Комментарии : 44   
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 17 дней назад
For all the Orgelbüchlein episodes in order, see ru-vid.com/group/PLABcWksVExXsIRFhMOewhg1hNzPDUxAsR
@TheSdevries
@TheSdevries 11 месяцев назад
Thank you SO much, Dr. Rishton!!!
@jimbo3847
@jimbo3847 10 месяцев назад
You sir are a very good teacher. The concept of starting from the end is not unfamiliar to me. I remember reading about it in the New Oxford Organ Manual. I had used it from time to time, but you have impressed its value upon me. As a youngster I used to start a piece, get discouraged, and only play the first page and loose focus or motivation. Here's a method that sets one up for success and builds confidence! I will pass this along to piano students. A dictum of philosophy says to start with the end in mind, or to consider the final end of thing to understand it's purpose and nature; the same applies in the study of music. Thank you!
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 10 месяцев назад
That's really interesting, thank you - I'm not familiar with the New Oxford Organ Manual and will try to get hold of a copy. Starting from the end is something I've been preaching for 40 years (my students are fed up of me saying it), but we all get tempted to "just have another go": I catch myself doing it too!
@alroberts227
@alroberts227 9 месяцев назад
Oddly enough, I've never been taught how to learn a piece. Thank you.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 9 месяцев назад
My pleasure. Good luck! Tim
@OgionTheSilent-bb5rx
@OgionTheSilent-bb5rx 3 месяца назад
Wonderful. Thank you!😀
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 3 месяца назад
Glad you enjoyed it!
@rolf-oliverbickel6346
@rolf-oliverbickel6346 Год назад
I like this series very much and especially your explanation about learning process is very helpful!
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Thank you!It's very good to get feedback and to know that the films are of some use. Good luck with the playing!
@remi-chapalain
@remi-chapalain Год назад
Thank you so much for this lesson ! I have learnt all the pieces I have played by strating at the beginning, and I clearly recognize myself in performing the beginning and ruining the end... I will learn this piece with your advices, and see how it goes ( I will need more than one hour however... )
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Good luck - I do hope that it goes well for you!
@monsieurgrigny
@monsieurgrigny Год назад
I found this quite gripping. After dipping in, I just had to watch it until the end. Perhaps because there was so much that was new in the method. Perhaps because my MO with the OB! too much resembles a war of attrition which I submit to willingly for the greater good. But there's a lot of wastage and time ill spent. Time for a new approach. So I'll try it. So glad to have discovered this channel which is new to me. Thank you, Tim, for your excellent presentation.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
I'm really delighted if it's of use to you. Good luck with the rest of OB!
@monsieurgrigny
@monsieurgrigny Год назад
Hi Tim! Working from the end have got to bar 10 in two stints. !!!Practising (very) slowly in a dotted rhythm is most helpful I find. You recommended this as does the RU-vid organist Vidas Pinkeviçius. It gives you time to think and look ahead before moving forward. There is in Vater unser a fair amount of redistribution between the hands required in the manual parts which is a matter I'm sure you address in your videos. This is something which makes these chorale preludes (and Bach's organ music in general) much more complex than it looks on the page. What a magnificent piece Vater unser is!!!
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Well done! I'm delighted that it works for you. I think I mention the distribution of notes between the hands in one of the episodes, but can't remember off hand which. And there was one episode when I looked at a couple of "tricky patches" and progressively re-notated them as a depiction of how to approach this type of problem. Wir Christenleut' is another good example of this problem. Good luck as you go back from bar 10!
@Thueringerorgel
@Thueringerorgel Год назад
Großartiger Unterricht. In Zukunft mache ich alles anders. Hoffentlich sind Sie bald wieder in Deutschland!
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Danke und viel Spaß! Tim
@Giggleswick84
@Giggleswick84 Год назад
Tried your start from the back thing. Sounds crazy, but it works. Brilliantly. Why did no-one tell me this before?
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Really glad that it helps!
@chrissahar2014
@chrissahar2014 8 месяцев назад
I agree just starting at the beginning and then trying to barrel through difficulties is detrimental. However there is one case where it may work --- doing it slowly you can go through it to be aware of difficulties and mark them and then continue on. This should be done only one or two times. And then you look at the score and yes starting from the difficult parts first as well as go backwards. I think people tend to do the former method so many times out of impatience to learn the piece. So I would add always include in your practice sessions that you know well and play through without difficult and use them for practice of registration and improvisation as a break from learning new literature.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 7 месяцев назад
Sounds sensible. Good luck with the learning!
@theorganloft8421
@theorganloft8421 Год назад
Thank you so much for this most helpful video. I always feel there is no piece I can play, however simple, without making a mistake. I will try your method and see how I get on (but I don't think I can learn a prelude in quarter of an hour - more like a month!).
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Good luck - I do hope you will let us know how you get on with the new piece. The method really does work , according to my students, and comes with a full-refund guarantee!
@theorganloft8421
@theorganloft8421 Год назад
@@timrishton5871 You can see how I got on with the piece: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kfu_WODe7u0.html I am not happy with it but it was the best recording I made. How to you stop making the same mistake every time, even after practising the section over and over again and shouting at your finger. In the bar after the end of the second repeat, the left hand plays semi-quavers downward runs C# to G#, A to E and G to D. Even now my finger will often, on the run from G# to E, end on a G and I get so frustrated.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
I thought your demo film was really well done: these Orgelbüchlein preludes are really difficult and you do admirably. So, how to cure those annoying issues? The main point of my film is not that we have to learn things in one particular way, but that when things seem difficult, the best approach is always to identify the problem rather than a “brute-force attack”. There are a number things that I didn’t mention in the film. Firstly, very often, when a note that in principle is easy to play, keeps going wrong in context (like playing a G instead of a G#), the cause is actually something else entirely. It’s a bit like when there’s been a car accident, it's not unlikely that there’ll be another one in the other direction because drivers are looking at the original accident instead of at where they’re going. So something like those parallel 6ths in the right hand just before might be enough just to divert our attention at the wrong moment. So we need to search for other possible distractions just before or just after the problem. Secondly, another helpful technique is to put all the notes from one beat and one hand (so in this case, the four semiquavers) together as a chord, and then practice playing the four “chords” for that bar in quick succession. This helps you to think ahead and gets the notes “under your fingers” in a different way. The reason I didn’t mention this in the film is that it tends to promote “early fingering” (with a new hand position for each beat) and I was trying to stay a bit neutral about that. Thirdly, I can only repeat the advice to work backwards - also within a particular bar or phrase. You explain that concept so very well in your film, so I know that you’re on board with it. But also in this sort of mini-context it’s useful: practice your phrase working from the end. Finally, think primarily of an emphasis on each crotchet beat and lighten up a little bit between the beats. That makes for a slower pace of thinking (where you’re thinking crotchets rather than semiquavers) and might help the semiquavers to become more automatic. It would also give the piece just a little more flow, which perhaps is the only thing that at the moment would bring your marks down a little in a Grade 6 exam! As I say, though, your film is most impressive and a great pleasure to watch!@@theorganloft8421
@monsieurgrigny
@monsieurgrigny Год назад
Tim! How would you pedal bar 3? RLR RL/R LR? By RL/R I mean substituting the right foot for the left on the C. Is foot substitution like this considered kosher in Bach? What I had was RLR LR etc but I don''t like the crossing of the feet on E and C.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Personally - RLR RL LR (or possibly left heel on the C if I were feeling that way out). That way the semiquavers are alternate feet (which always seems to work for Bach), while there's no need for the quavers to be legato across the crotchet beats. Each crotchet beat can be articulated. Foot substitution is thus not so much forbidden as very rarely necessary. It's a funny thing, but if you look carefully through the Orgelbüchlein with exactly this question in mind (which I have done) you'll only find a couple of places where the short note values within the beat don't work as alternate toes, but almost everywhere the medium or longer note values actually require you to lift your feet between the beats, assuming you're playing with toes only.
@monsieurgrigny
@monsieurgrigny Год назад
As usual you go to the heart of the matter: "there's no need for the quavers to be legato across crotchet beats". This was precisely my worry - not to leave a gap between the C and the F - but the concern was groundless. This is a very important principle about pedal articulation in Bach. Just as you would seek to maintain a downbow on the first quaver of each crotchet beat. Perhaps I was also afraid of missing the bottom F if leaping with the same foot😮 But belt and braces is no argument and you're right - no attempt should be made to make those across-the-beat quavers legato.
@monsieurgrigny
@monsieurgrigny 11 месяцев назад
Turning to the chorale itself (left hand page of the Novello edition) - I'm surprised I still have difficulty playing this. I take the bass part with the feet and play S A with the RH and T with LH ( with some redistribution where necessary eg b5). Is my MO correct ie not doubling the bass with the LH and leaving it entirely to the pedals?
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 11 месяцев назад
Bearing in mind that these chorale settings are composed for SATB voices rather than for organ, it's little wonder that they're fiddly to play. Most hymns are, for the same reason. I don't just have the Novello edition to hand at the moment (it and I are in different countries tonight), but in general I would say yes, it's sensible to stick with the pedals for the bass and distribute the three parts in whatever way falls best under the fingers. And it's surely OK to take some liberties here and there ...
@monsieurgrigny
@monsieurgrigny 11 месяцев назад
@@timrishton5871 Thanks, for that reassuring reply. It's undoubtedly good for one's health. Trying to sing another part while practising the pedal line helps I found. Helps disentangle the thing.
@denhamk
@denhamk 7 месяцев назад
Just what I wanted! I've started on the BWV 684 .. hellish left hand 😁 ! I have started at the very end but the problem I have faced is that I can't land on the correct fingering working backwards. once I think this fingering will work when I work forward that finger pattern doesn't work. Any thoughts please on getting around adding the correct fingering? Thank you!
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 7 месяцев назад
Ah yes, that's such a wonderful piece - one of my all-time favourites! Those running semiquavers seem to provide stability and continuity to the texture, as well as emphasising the beat. We always play strings of semiquavers with a graduated non-legato touch, where there is no need to attain a legato fingering from the last semiquaver of each group of four to the first semiquaver of the next. In other words, so far as fingering is concerned, the general principle is to get the best possible finger onto the first of each group of four, irrespective of what finger was on the preceding note (though of course at the same time making it as easy as possible to get there). If we ditch the 19th-century concept of continuous legato fingering it all becomes much easier - and the effect becomes much more rhythmic! The Jordan is quite small and fast-flowing: I can't help thinking that Bach is thinking here in terms of a bubbling brook, and that's quite a helpful picture to have in mind while playing the piece. Good luck with this glorious prelude! Tim
@denhamk
@denhamk 7 месяцев назад
@@timrishton5871 thank you so much!
@denhamk
@denhamk 7 месяцев назад
@@timrishton5871 that’s very liberating to know that fact!
@denhamk
@denhamk 7 месяцев назад
Do you have a video on playing the various ornaments in Bach’s music? BWV 622 and 641 in particular
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 7 месяцев назад
@@denhamk My episode on 641 does focus on the ornaments - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6I3xQVRYUeo.html - so hopefully there might be something of use there. Tim
@ZL54JK8
@ZL54JK8 Год назад
A most interesting video. I watched it from beginning to end, and I have read the twelve comments. As an organist "well stricken in years", and also a qualified teacher I am interested in how a piece of organ music is best learnt. I would say that thinking about what you're doing and why you are doing it are critically important. Back in the 1960s, when I started to learn to play the organ, there was no such thing as RU-vid with its enormous instructional potential. And I'm glad there wasn't. Looking back to my early endeavours, would I have wanted a video like this? I have to say I would not. It would have spelt drudgery to me with its dreary and lugubrious presentation. No light touch of humour, just the occasional glimmer of a smile like the silver plate on a coffin, a complete absence of inspiration. I should say to any aspiring player that the 25 minutes taken to watch this video would be better spent listening to recordings of the great exponents of Bach playing the Orgelbüchlein. Capture the spirit of the music, and then deal with the technicalities of playing it. People's brains are not all the same and there is no right way to go about learning. Still, that's only what I think, and for people who like this video, then this is the sort of thing they like.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 Год назад
Thank you for the helpful feedback!
@HobbyOrganist
@HobbyOrganist 8 месяцев назад
I don't particularly care for the usual Bach and related music, so much of it is SO overdone and everywhere, especially that one by Bach that is annoyingly used is just about every scary/ghost/horror film etc., I mostly stuck to hymnals/church music, but found the American hymnals basically just repeat the majority of the same music across practically every denomination, but I found an organ channel by Frantisek Beer in Slovakia, he recorded music from a book I couldnt see the cover of, and had to ask him what it's title "JKS" that he referred to was, he said it was the Slovak Jednotny Katholisch Spevnik book, so after a lot of work I was able to find the organist edition, there were many pew editions I found but those only contained the words and melody line, so navigating foreign book stores I finally found the organist edition with the 600 pages of full scores, brand new, a stunningly beautiful, large hardcover book brand new for $100. The music in it I never heard before turned out to have been composed mostly by the book's author who was commissioned by the church back in the 30s to write it. Other than that, I acquired a number of other books from Hungary, germany etc such as the SzVU! and the Eneklo Egyhaz, and the Barenreiter 3 book set Orgelbuch zum Evanbelischen Gesangbuch, Deuthes Liederbuch, Evangelisches Gesangbuch 1895, 1877, German Sunday school books from the 1870s, but also very old/obscure books found in archive org or ebay from the 1860s. I work as a pipe organ builder, and have a highly modified and added onto Moller 1930 organ in my house, I'm certainly no more than an amateur, but I enjoy the organ. Since I had never heard the majority of the music in these books before, and many I found were so obscure that hymnary org only showed they were only published in one or two hymnals, and there were no youtube videos to listen to to get an idea of how they should sound, but Mr Beer's channel at least he recorded almost all 60 pieces in that JKS book during church services, he even asked people to stay after church to sing while he recorded obscure pieces from the book that are rarely played and about HALF the people young and old stayed while he recorded several pieces after teaching them HOW they were sung! I recorded about 900 videos on youtube, but after their recent change forcing ads on everyone or pay $15/mo for "premium" and blocking use of ad blockers even to edit my OWN videos, I turned all but about 3 of my videos to private since I dont earn a dime from them while youtube makes money from them while blocking ME.
@timrishton5871
@timrishton5871 8 месяцев назад
How interesting. From what you write, including having a copy of the Orgelbuch zum Evangelischen Gesangbuch, I'm sure that Bach's Orgelbüchlein is just the thing for you. Hope you enjoy it!
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