BACK EDGE CUTS in Sword Fighting: Good but WEAK 

I was never a good fencer but I swear the best hit I ever scored was a false edge stop cut to the base of a opponents wrist. It felt wonderful and was strangely enough caught on camera just as I touched the wrist by somebody at the club who fancied taking photos with their camera that evening. Sadly I never managed to get a copy of it, this was before everybody had a mobile phone let alone a camera phone.

Looking at examples from 16th-17th century sources, using that very side-sword, we see rising false edge cuts deliver devastating blows by relying on the shoulder to power the cut instead of the wrist. This is in fact a common technique in sword & rotella sources of the period. Capitalizing on the relative vulnerability of the legs & ability of the shield to safely close distance, but also applicable with other offhand defenses.

As far as 'weakness' is concerned, yes, false edge cuts are 'weaker', however their intended effect is to weaken the enemy for the following up true edge cut. They are not designed to kill but to give an advantage, and as such they work as intended if executed successfully. They are more effective in some cases with curved swords as they go around guards/shields and can reach body areas straight sword won't be able to, and also increase the cutting surface area. Do not dismiss them lightly.

I’ve seen a demonstration by a Sikh traditional sword instructor, utilizing the small shield to push inside, and using the false edge to come up inside the inner thigh targeting the genitals/femoral artery. Viable method considering a lot of their fighters traditionally did not have much in the way of lower body armor.

This is a very interesting topic. Having performed these cuts (mostly from the Liechtenauer school for me), it's pretty obvious that they are weaker. The big problem with much of modern HEMA is that it's nearly impossible for most people to estimate how much weaker, and whether that makes them basically useless. By necessity, all HEMA combat is still a simulation (we don't really want to kill each other), and we're sufficiently protected that these swords don't really pose the danger they should. To unarmoured or lightly armoured opponents, at least; swords don't do much against metal armour even with the true edge. But those are the hits we count in our tournaments. So when would these and other cuts actually be powerful enough to seriously wound? That might well be an important yet neglected topic in HEMA.

Reverse edge Moulinets can be quite strong at about 4/5 th's the power. I will say conventional front edge cuts are more intuitive & natural to the bodies inclination in biomechanics but reverse if practiced with understanding can be quite surprising at what can be delivered.

Oooo someone is trying to aggro Russ Mitchell ;-) These are good solid points all around, and I'm glad you covered a range of swords in the discussion, because the utility of the false edge certainly does vary a bit both by sword type and fencing system. Like many other issues, you're correct that this is probably another item to keep in mind when it comes to competitive scoring. I do not envy those tournament organizers. But this does make me want to go out and test the effectiveness of some of my blades that have yelman now...

Coming from a different background for fencing, I have found what you are saying to be true only under certain forms of movement, and to be fair these tend to be the most economic. However is styles found in other parts of the world, changing the point of rotation from the sword to the arm can provide very powerful cuts with the back/false edge. Doing this and deriving the power from unwinding at the hips I would say can give such a blow, but the angles are limited.

i do love me some good old longsword false edge cuts

That was one of my favorite attacks with saber. Even if I didn't score a point on it, it would throw my opponent off to where I scored on the following attack.

Thanks for the video. In kung fu we often practice wide horizontal false edge cuts that are probably more potent than the examples you gave.

As you mentioned, in the SCA we throw this shot a lot. At least here in Texas. We do a hip whip movement with it and the power generation is crazy. The "wrap shot" was one of my most powerful strikes.

Schielhau - one of Meyer's "mastercuts" - strikes with the false edge, in a similar the manner to what's shown at 5:05. It's meant to be performed in such a way as to cover an incoming attack from the opponent's dominant side. Though, in this case the "false edgeness" can be understood - depending on whose interpretation of the move you observe - as an effect of the temporary flipping of the fencer's stance.

Your videos always make me want to try saber HEMA.

From a ruleset standpoint playing the "this is less likely to kill" game is a slippery slope. Better you're rules stay simple and encourage not getting hit as the promary goal because you just never know. The same exact hit displaced an inch in any direction can have wildly different results and damage.

I agree on almost everything, mind I am not an expert, except, as another commenter pointed out, false cuts powered by the shoulder can do pretty good damage (especially if paired with a shield) and that a cut to the hand, even if "small" can injure it so much to make the sword unwieldy so it's kinda fight ending (of course you have to finish the target but you can cause you rendered them unable to respond/defend effectively).

I still have a bruise on my forearm from a false edge moulinette that my sparring partner intentionately landed as a double instead of parrying my lightly set tap on HIS forearm. He got frustrated after 5 handsnipes and just wacked me. Maybe not as effective as a true edge cut, but still potentially very strong. Sorry for any errors, I am not a native English speaker. You may correct me, if you say Lanzknecht correctly :P

A double-edged sword is a real double-edged sword.

I started with Japanese swords so when I got into our HEMA (I'm from Britain 🍻) about 8 years ago now I really took to the rapier and false edge cuts 🙂 I use the reach and balance so close to my hand to drop the point and cut for the fingers or wrist when people jump for the opening, and I block with the hilt which is insanely easy when you spend so long learning Jujutsu and twist at the wrist to cut around their blade while I grapple with the other one. It's like 2 completely unrelated techniques from people who're literally from other sides of the earth work perfectly together 😄

Good video! I want to see more like these from time to time.👍

This is indeed an interesting and complicated topic. I'd like to draw your attention to the "sturzhau" and its variants, basically a false edge cut from above to the oponnent's head - it's a great way to get a good angle in a sword and shield situation. Some people interpret it as one of primary cuts used in I33 style sword and buckler fencing (Roland Warzecha has an extensive set of videos about it) and with the dynamic of early medieval or high medieval sword, the sturzhau is not a feeble cut. It's effect wouldn't be just to cut the scalp and gain an advantage over an opponent who's head is now bleeding, It's more a cut that would cause severe trauma, skull fracture or maybe even cut into the skull (there are skulls from battlefield context with severe cuts or parts of skull missing in places where those cuts would hit - and I'm not mentioning it to say that the sturzhau is super powerful blow, but to point to another interesting way of thinking and analysis, how we can use archeological evidence in HEMA). I'd not be happy to receive this type of cut on a shoulder or upper arm either, especially in an unarmored situation - the effect wouldn't probably be life threatening, but the affected arm wouldn't be fit for use immediately. If I can't lift my shield arm because of wounded shoulder, I'm quite in a trouble. This conversational topic is for me not about "oh, Matt Easton is wrong, false edge cuts are super powerful" but more about analysing of older types of swords, their weight, balance and dynamics - the more I'm thinking and experimenting in this way, the more I'm considering the old blades in completely different light. They aren't too unwieldly or less well balanced than late medieval and rennaissance swords, they are excellently designed for the style of fighting they were used for and we should strive to exploit their advantages to the maximum as their historical users surely did. :) The idea of a false edge cut that cuts a part of skull off was quite a novelty for me, but the farer I get on this path, the more I'm realizing how my perception of fencing is limited by my sport fencing and saber fundaments...

SCA wrap shots pack a decent amount of punch to them. With good body mechanics even that under the wrist flick shot can be delivered strongly. It is harder to generate power for false edge shots when compared to true edge shots, but not impossible.

There are many false edge cuts to the head (in sources)

so in short: false edge cuts are largely secondary techniques, not main ones.

Pleasantly surprised by the mention of the SCA wrap shot!

Mr. Easton, I respect you greatly, but you're incorrect in your assertion that false-edge cuts are so weak as to be irrelevant to any place save for an unclothed wrist, neck, or head. A properly sharpened sword *is* capable of cutting through a wool uniform sleeve with the false edge, and I've done so in testing with the Windlass Pattern 1796 saber which you enabled. They shipped mine with a sharpened false-edge, and I've used it in test cutting for my practice of the Hedan lineage of Hungarian Hussar Saber. I have cut deeply into a ham-hawk which had been dressed in heavy wool to simulate the inner thigh of an opponent and the cut with the false edge was 3" deep (~76mm for the Frenchmen) and went from back to front of the hawk. This was repeatable on other ham hawks and fresh pieces of equally heavy wool.

Nothing really surprising here; I might only say that "Good but WeakER" might have been subtly better phrasing.

So, this is a little off-topic, but here in the states false edge cuts have kind of a mystique associated with the Bowie knife, and to a lesser degree the exploits of Jose Llulla. No one really knows how Jim Bowie used his knife, or even really what the knife looked like, although there are a lot of theories about that. Bill Bagwell (not sure if he is still alive, but he was a well known knife smith for years and years) theorized in the 80's that the Bowie and its use was inspired by the cutlass. This was during a time when New Orleans was a more important port city than NYC, and there was a lot of piracy and dueling at the time. In fact, Bagwell claims that New Orleans was the dueling capital of the world during that period. Bagwell wrote a lot about the differences between cutting with a trailing point vs a leading point. And the type of bowies he made and the way he intended their use relied a lot on back cuts with the point leading. Jim Keating developed a Bowie system that I think he adapted from some saber fencing manuals (this was before HEMA was... well, before it was HEMA. ARMA was just getting started in those days) and Jim's method utilized a leading edge back cut quite a bit. More recently I have heard some HEMA people suggest that the Bowie may be a derivitive of the Messer, which makes sense. As far as I know, neither Bagwell nor Keating were aware of Messers during the 80's and 90's, so they were going with the information available at the time.

A BOTN fighter broke his opponents thigh through the aemor with an SCA wrap shot. It has a lot to do with how you pop the hip to cause a whipping motion kinda. As for twohanded sword false edge cut; I limp to this day from an SCA fight where I took a false edge cut from a half moulinet to the butt that damaged my SI joint, piriformis muscle, and sciatic nerve. Million to one circumstances but it remains the most painful blow I ever took and the only one that didn't KO me that ended the fight right there as I hit the ground and started dry heaving. But as you say YMMV.

Most of my training is in single-edged weapons, and while we tend not to think of offense with the back edge, it is extremely useful strategically.

I have to disagree with you about the Zwerchhau. I've always found I can accelerate a sword to a higher velocity, hit harder, and cut deeper, with a false-edge zwerchau than I can with any true-edge cut whatsoever, and that's using a single-handed sword to boot. Other than that though, I'd say you're basically right. Most false-edge cuts are much weaker than the corresponding true-edge cuts, though I still wouldn't want to get hit with them and I suspect they could be pretty disabling if they hit the right target.

I’d be interested to see you post more sparring and competition footage with comments try about what is effective and isn’t

Deploy like a muay Thai elbow. Knife hand ( true edge ) palm up snapped over to palm down. The inner or false edge is naturally pulled back into guard. Speed is the point rather than power.

Great topic, very well presented as usual - yes, my back edge moves are incredibly weak......pull cuts is all I can hope for really without some very serious time spent practicing them. It's just alien arm movements to an old hacker like me.

Would add armpits, groin and inner thighs to the list of valid targets - provided we’re talking about unarmored fighting.

So I was thinking a cut I like and can definitely use with power was a false edge. Then I practiced the motion and realized it’s actually true edge just from an unusual angle.

In order to power up a false edge cut one should start with a true edge and flick into the back edge at the end of the motion.

10:57 That upwards flick with the blade may not be as strong as a downwards swing, but it looks like its still strong enough to mess up stuff off camera there.

Might just be me but i would love if you could give the details of swords you use in videos at the end. Like a quick slide show. You have such an awesome collection.

Honestly it would be interesting to see the difference in damage on a balastic gel analog

I always thought that the false edge in many curved blades were meat to act as pseudo -falxs and take advantage of all the perks of a forward curved blade edit: Just rotate the weapon in your hand and cave someone's helm in with your forward curved tip

I always thought a double edged blades main purpose was to aid in a deeper thrust, from the Roman gladius to the fairbairn sykes dagger.

Thanks for the video ⚔️

I know a secret and ancient technique for making back-edge cuts more powerful. Just turn the sword around.

How do true edge cuts from below compare to false edge cuts from below?

Keep in mind things can change. Look at backhanded shots in hockey, they used to be weak and clumsy but tricky. Players today can do incredible backhanded shots because they focused on it. Why? Because goalies (armored opponents) got better at stopping slapshots.

I think the best actual advantage of a false edge or a fully double edged sword is the ability to do push or draw cuts lightning fast regardless of which side of your opponent your weapon ended up

False information?! Sign me up! (All pun intended)

Showing the wrist mechanics were good but I think you missed something. For back edge your hand is often in "wrist breaker" position. If you deliver the blow with your arm and wrist straight or if you are parried forcefully, that could lead to an over-extension of the inner wrist and in itself be a fight ending "blow." A good false edge upper cut to the chin or a lucky stroke to an unprotected skull, concussing or fracturing, could well be fight stoppers. But, yes, false edge weak. Question: Is there any evidence that two edged swords were re-hilted and rotated after the true edge became damaged and the sword could have a second life with the new edge forward? Seems like something the Regimental Smith would even do in the field. Anyway, another great discussion. Cheers!

How do you feel about the phrase "its a double edge sword" to mean a compromise? is there any historical examples of someone cutting themselves?

Awesome “fingers getters”

When are we gonna get news on the next line of Royal Armouries swords? 😊

'False Edge' cuts are NOT necessarily weaker than 'True Edge' cuts: the efficacy of the Cut depends entirely on the 'point of the Cut'; ie, which body part is the target! A 'back edge' Cut to the Throat is just as efficacious as a 'front edge' Cut; because the throat (unarmoured) is highly vulnerable to EITHER EDGE: the nearness of the Carotids, the Esophagus, and the Trachea, to the Epidermis provides EQUAL potential for a 'fight ending' Cut. Cheers from the Oil Patch in Central WY, USA

I think there's definitely a very good reason why you don't have sword fighting styles which are primarily based on false edge or back swing strikes.

False edge cuts with longsword: I agree that they are weaker than true edge cuts, but they are plenty lethal. Having the off hand driving the pommel upwards acts as a lever and brings the false edge crashing down pretty hard. Go try it on a skull analog, or a coconut or whatever you may have. Not just a mere scalp splitter.

Ever done a false edge cut on a 2-liter bottle & disarmed yourself? Unlike a true edge cut where the sword can move freely back to leads the thumb to absorb energy & move past a non penetrating cut. But the wrist can't flex enough towards the pinky to allow a sword to do so. So guts to ribs or other parts of the body could potentially get stuck on the target & wrench the sword from one's hand. Disarming yourself during a sword fight is a bad idea.

I agree with targeting, but I think especially to the hand and head/neck area they should be scored the same. Also, judging the way you would like it to be done sounds like a nightmare. Otherwise we get into schoolyard "nah uh that doesn't count" territory, imo.

I gotta say false edge strikes to the body aren’t even convenient.

Is it just my ignorance or are you missing the big benefit of a sharp false edge? At least for straight swords with simple hilts. The big benefit being that if the true edge gets blunted or damaged you turn the sword around so the false edge becomes the new true edge.

i love false edge cuts, i sharpened my swordchetes back to practice them

I always see flase edge cuts as a way to scratch the other guys face or get them to step back. Not an actual finishing blow

I almost chopped my face in half with a back edge cut and you call it weak! Almost...

Do double-edged swords actually have a “strong” edge and a “weak” edge (like the strong edge has more mass, is sharper, etc.) to determine the true/false edge? If so, how do you tell the difference? Probably easy if the true edge has more weight distributed to it. Or are true/false edge cuts defined by the motion relative to the swordsman? I.e., a downward swing is with the true edge (because it’s facing towards the opponent) and an upward swing is with the false edge?

As soon as I saw the topic I knew you injured your wrist 💁‍♂️. I say the same thing when I strain my wrist 😂

Back edge cut to elbow is my secret weapon but, Shhhhhh, (don't tell anyone.)

You repeated yourself a lot in this video. My experience is that when you make a false-edge cut, especially a raising one, you can expose yourself to a powerful parry slamming against your blade from top, which can disarm you (because holding the blade against impact coming down on the false edge is way more difficult than if it comes on the true edge), or it can expose you to the enemy afterblow. Attacking with the false edge, especially raising ones, isn't all that good at putting your blade in between you and the enemy and closing the angles ofthe enemy attacks. And trading a false edge cut at the opponent's arm for a powerful true edge into own face is no good. So, they are situational and need to be done when there is a safe moment for them. Otherwise you are making an attack which puts you at risk of being disarmed or trashed with an afterblow in ways true edge cuts would often not.

I would say that with a dagger the power level is much closer, than with a sword. Of course the cut is not as efficient in the first place.

Is there anything to say about thumb rings adding to the power and speed of the upward "pulling" false edge cuts?

What about the groin? They always show cuts like this in film.

I would love to see this tested in a pig or a torso simulator

I bet that even a false "edge" cut with a Tanto can break a finger or two... How likely does that make someone drop a weapon in a fight? I've been smacked with a bamboo shinai and while it didn't break my hand, I could barely use my hand for an entire week! My hand was totally swollen and I could barely close it. As a side-note: I bet that the tip of a shamshir could penetrate a skull in a false edge cut.

I have no real sword experience outside of watching videos online, but is there any value in a back edge cut going for the eyes? I don't imagine it takes much force to injure eyes and even if you miss, could it cause your opponent to back away and flinch, opening an opportunity? I suppose it wouldn't be a fight ending kind of hit since they would still be totally able to swing their weapon at you even with one eye. Again, I'm not experience, just throwing out an idea

Have you tried making meat targets? Use pork ribs etc .

Skill and opportunity would make false edge cuts important.

Do all double edge swords have a false edge or some come with both sides equally sharpened?

Damn Matt! You have accidentally disclosed a family heirloom fencing tricks that were passed from generation to generation for centuries. Now what shall our lineage do?!

But it does cause the opponent to react. Tends to make follow up more effective because the reaction,

All this talk of targeting the hands, were gloves not standard-issue back then? I feel like a decent pair of gloves could negate most of this.

🎩Hi, give me my spear any time. But as usual very informative.

At least 25% of SCA heavy fighters can knock you out with a false edge cut. It just depends on technique and how much power you want to put in once your technique is good enough not to mess your joints up. Not kidding about this.

👍

I've never understood how swords are not destroyed during use. One will always be harder than the other. How do they not chip and chunk out during use.

The weakest cut is still far far stronger than flesh

Mmm .. chops ..

🗿👍

But a weak cut is still better than no cut

So why are rapiers even double edged? They tend to be not the greatest cutting swords. But what if you were to keep the same mass and make it single edged for a more acute blade angle?

I think you may underestimate the back cut. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lQ67T-uwaYg.html

2:57 Did you just say *that* word gives us English "sleeve"...? Where did you get that from? I must be getting you wrong. "Sleeve: From Middle English sleve, slefe, from Old English slief and sliefe (“sleeve”). Cognate with Saterland Frisian Sleeuwe (“sleeve”), West Frisian sluf, Dutch sloof (“apron”), Low German sluve, dialectal German Schlaube." I can hear the wails of millions of "Englishmen" upon finding out that another one of their words is English, not French. Oh, l'humanité.

Schiel and Twer are classically weak and useless cuts after all. Dude.

Do all double edge swords have a false edge or some come with both sides equally sharpened?