@Gary Winthorp Title isn’t clickbait thought. The video is exactly what you clicked on, it’s comparing a bad guitar mix to a good one. RU-vid has lost the meaning of clickbait when everyone just says something is clickbait when it’s not.
@Gary Winthorp Complaint: “ a statement that a situation is unsatisfactory or unacceptable” You: “Calling the video clickbait and saying you don’t care about the video.” That’s called a complaint bro.
This is exactly the way how you should teach sound engineering. Examples, explain what is bad, how to fix it in recording or even mixing phase. Wish there are more videos like this.
@Dumble Door you're an audio engineer? When and where did you get your degree? All the programs I've looked at for audio engineering/equivalent degrees require extensive study in electrical engineering, some computer science, and all math courses that would be necessary for that level of electrical engineering (probably linear algebra and diff eq). I know other sound engineering programs that are actually offshoots of electrical engineering programs rather than being through the music schools (there's an affiliation of course, but the brunt of the coursework goes through the engineering school). This isn't to say you can't be or aren't a fantastic audio engineer! I have no idea how good you are and I agree with you that knowing the technicals is nice, but knowing your ears is what makes good recordings. I am legitimately just curious because what you described is not what I've seen. Maybe things changed over the years or it could be that my sample size was an I'll representation of the general experience.
@@tjkim1999 For real! I went to school for audio engineering and had to do a lot of algebraic mathematics that were not covered in regular college algebra classes. I'm currently going to school for Electrical Engineering now and I'd say that Audio Engineering is closely related to it and acoustical physics. If you actually want to understand what you're doing to the signals you're recording and etc.. You have to at least have a basic understanding of what's going on under the surface. These days a lot of these people are just producers with a lot of understanding in how they want it to sound, but never really know how to achieve those sounds properly and used massive amounts of compression, EQ, distortion/saturation to get it. Audio Engineering is an art, but it's also a science. A lot of people forget that.
@Dumble Door Engineering as a noun: "the branch of science and technology concerned with the design, building, and use of engines, machines, and structures" // "the action of working artfully to bring something about" // "the work done by, or the occupation of, an engineer" As a verb: "design and build (a machine or structure)" // "skillfully or artfully arrange for (an event or situation) to occur" You're really just mistaken as to what engineering is. The reason the profession of civil engineering and things adjacent to it demands an incredible level of education has more to do with the fact that lives, money, and the very functioning of society can be at stake. In many cases the extreme academic demands for the profession are written in blood. Make no mistake, though, the term "engineer" includes what you perceive as engineers, but it is certainly not limited to it. Civil engineering may protect the title of "engineer" for the reason of being very clear and specific as to qualifications in that field, but if you look to other industries the game can change, and according to definition engineering is a very broad term that can require wildly different requirements.
One thing home producers may forget is that great bands ’mix themselves’ both in how they sound and play to get through and be in a sweet spot of the ’live mix’. A bass players tone solo for example may sound quite awful or not so ear pleasing, but cuts through and works just perfectly in conjunction with the band.
Try using a medium pick. That big heavy pick you are using is causing that low-mid bump. With a medium pick you will retain the nice highs, and also reduce that low-mid bump and keep warmth. I used to use a heavy pick as well until I heard the difference.
I'm in college and I'm regretting that I didn't pick a music program but I found this vid and it gives me hope that I could still pursue music!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!
this was a great comparison, but the second one's boomy pop sound everytime it gets strummed down on the beat gives me the tension at the bump of my head (yes I've got one too ;P) thanks for relieving me with the one-small-EQ at the end. I like the sock covering image you described, because that's close to what I imagined when you asked to close eyes. It was like hearing guitar behind a curtain.
My opinion: never point a mic at the soundhole. The sound you want to record does not come from the soundhole. The sound of an acoustic guitar doesn't come from the strings, it comes from the sounding board, the big piece of wood that the strings are attached to. You should point a mic at that. I also point a mic at around the fifth fret, to catch high end and string noise. This gives a couple of feet of separation of what the two mics are hearing, which can make for an amazing stereo field. The main point, tho, is the weird but true fact that the sound of a guitar doesn't actually come from the strings.
Soooo true! And acoustic treatment is also very important. Lately I built some absorbers for my recording room. Now I can place the mic further away from the guitar without getting these ugly small room reflections. I was very surprised when I started mixing. It was boring. Almost nothing to do. 😀 That's how good mixes start. I guess.
I wish there wouldn't have been so may differences between the recordings - different guitars, different songs, etc. For me, the much wider stereo spread on the first one was so in-my-face obvious that it was hard to hone in on the mic placement and EQ differences you were trying to demonstrate. If you do more of these, it would be helpful to keep as many things constant as possible, i.e. just change the mic technique. Hopefully this is some constructive criticism, and I did enjoy the video.
Thoughts on vibe vs a technical better sounding recording? The reason I'm asking when writing/producing a song I always record some scratch guitars without thinking too much. When the song is almost done (except the vocals) I will do the "real" recording of the guitars. And sometimes the scratch guitars just sounds better, not speaking of the sound but the energy and vibe just sounds better.
One thing I've noticed is that a great sounding "strumming" guitar takes up a lot of space in the mix and if it will be fighting for space with drums, bass, some keyboards, vocals, an electric guitar, a sledgehammer, and a refinery, it might be best to do a "bad" recording that sounds a bit thin. That way it comes through the mix without pushing away the other instruments. I usually just use a dynamic super-cardioid at a 45-degree angle aimed at the 14th fret. The angle (imagine your flashlight example but pull it away from the fretboard a bit and angle it so it also shines on the edge of the soundhole) allows some of the sounds from the body so that it still sounds like a guitar, but the low frequencies are not there. It is certainly possible to use an EQ instead, but as your example shows - surgical EQ'ing on a complex source as an acoustic guitar tend to move the problems around instead of solving them. It might have something to do with the fact that the microphone only has one membrane and any frequencies it had to deal with during the recording affected all the others.
Great demonstration. First recording did not sound all that bad, but once it was compared to the second recording I could really hear the difference. Recording 1 sounds like the richness of the upper mids are scooped out leaving brittle highs and muddy lows and low mids. Getting it right in pre is something I've been learning a lot more about lately, thank you for the vid.
11:14 That gave me a really good idea of what it was you were addressing. To me, I (would have) preferred the sound of the first guitar of how it was naturally brighter where the second one sounded cheaper or like it was being played through a cheap direct output from the internal pickups. But playing the two back to back I can see the potential of how the first guitar could have sounded if it was mic'd with a little more care and backed up to ease up on the low mids. Great insight!
Hey Indiana, I spent 45 years in South Bend. Yea, same in my studio, Sennhiesier HD280... no more, too thin, dropping off too much around the 200-400hz range. Ha, my head feels too much 800hz. I stopped using stereo microphones on acoustic guitar, picks up too much of the room acoustics, need a better environment for stereo. Single mic recording will need a good modulated delay to make it big across the field, or use as is; more focused somewhere in the field. Always clone acoustic guitar tracks; then one for compression and EQ, one original, and one for delay and reverb with 20 thru 800hz removed shelved@ -15db. Use the three together and find the perfect balance.
At my church I STRAIN a good source. I spend hours getting drums not only tuned but mic’d up right. Making sure the vocals are doing what they can When I get compliments I almost always say, my job is so easy because of the source.
I appreciate the comparisons, that is very helpful. Acoustics are certainly difficult to get right in the mix. At first, the first example sounded decent to me, but hearing the second one put it all in perspective, much better!
I think there's also a big time difference on how the mics are working the stereo of every take. The first one has a noticeable phase issue, that makes it too wide and makes some trouble in that mid-low range too. On the other hand the second one has a slight stereo, but sounds right on the middle.
It’s not a bad recording just because you don’t like the tone. And it really has nothing to do with experience as a musician, mixer, engineer or producer. I like the first recording, better. It’s much warmer and depending on your mixing and mastering preferences, it would work well. But, it’s your music, and so you’re entitled to your subjectivity.
This is great! Just got recommended your video. “Fixing in the mix” is a fallacy. It is almost impossible to really do. This is because fixing things with eq (pulling out bad sounds) doesn’t fix the issue with the sympathetic resonance in other frequencies that were created by those frequencies you cut. Those created harmonics are still present in other frequency ranges. So even when you pull out the offending frequencies the harmonics in other frequencies don’t quite match. I like to mic acoustics with at least two (sometimes three) mics. I use a contact mic, and a large diaphragm condenser mic. Sometimes I add a another mic for more delicate finger picking things or stereo.... I also like recording with guitars you would never probably play live because they are more “mid-rangey” (Yamaha FG or FGX). This decreases their propensity for proximity effect bass and just makes them easier to sit in the mix with less EQ since you are always bass cutting to make room for basses and kick drums any way. Love your videos!
You could also use a proximity effect immune mic like an re20 as the close range mic on the guitar to reduce unwanted bass frequencies. My go to is to have an re20 pointed toward the 12th fret and a stereo pair of condensers about a foot and a half back to prevent those bass sounds and create a warm stereo image. But I'll have to try the contact mic. That sounds interesting!
I think the point of the video is that you spend time listening to it, there is no one position that will give you the great sound as all the instruments/microphones are different. If you are recording your self try a mic position then record it and listen back. Try this with different positions. Pick the one that's the best and suits what you need.
Don't think it would have helped you to know where he placed the microphones, other than knowing it was further away than in the first example. There's plenty of videos and pictures online on how to record acoustic guitar well. And honestly, as long as you've got a fantastic sounding or super dead (in the right way) room, it's the easiest thing in the world.
HEAR YE, HEAR YE: This video should be the #1 go to video BEFORE ANYONE THINKING about recording/mixing gets started with their endeavors. You Tube is absolutely full of SNAKES feeding off of the inexperience of new comers; use this plugin, buy that plugin, mix like this, boost this, cut that.....It's pretty much all bullshit to make sales. I CANNOT AGREE MORE: It starts at the source and then the capture!!! If you watch the recordings of artists in studio, the mix is dam near complete just after the recording stops!! These studios have mics, pre's, and boards that most people will never own as it is out of their price range. The equipment is expensive for a reason; the powers that be don't want the average joe to have the technology easily available to them, or the market would be flooded with great music made at home, and thus put many studios out of business. I actually think that is starting to happen. ANYWAY: Don't settle for junk....Get the BEST SOUNDING, well made instrument that you enjoy, one great mic, one great pre, a great interface (RME here or you could save for a lynx system), and a decent computer. You will be spending well over 5k, so you are aware...unless you find great used gear. Great sonics dont come cheap! THANK YOU Joe........KEEP IT REAL!!!
its cause what you first hear, is what you associate the song with, so if you heard the song the first time (which is when the song is fresh in your ears) that the version that you have printed in your mind, that why alot of mixing engineers try to stay true to the reference mix they were sent
I recorded drums in my friends basement (no sound dampening at all) with a Blue Snowball. Worst idea ever, but we didn’t have any other mics to do it with. It ended up sounding like a bunch of garbage cans. I tried in vain to carve out the nastiness with eq, but it just didn’t work.
Is there something wrong with me if Iiked the first sound better? Second one seemed thin to me. And I use quality headphones that emphasise bass on a great soundcard. I guess if the sound was going to end up in the mix with bass and drums, the lack of low frequencies will become an advantage, but as a solo recording the second one just sounded thin. The first one souned muddy indeed (I guess in the mix it would sound even worse), but I guess I would try to use more mics at different distances to achieve more full sound. At least if the guitar was the only instrument in the mix.
Totally dig what you are putting down but there is a certain irony on the fact that sometimes you have to make it sound, how does Warren Huart put it, "a little bit wrong" to get it to fit. There are also certain times that I end up using the scratch guitars in the mix anyway because the fix was too good and made no sense now. Granted these are rarely tunes where the acoustic is way out front. Still want to get that old Doc Watson hearing the comps hit and the tape smashing the transients sound. Maybe someday ;-)
thank you for your videos. have small diaphragm condenser mic and try to find gain level for mic sensitivity for fingerstyle. for classical guitar its especially hard because of loudness of instrument. i have motu with quiet preamps, but at some trim level maybe 17 -18 mic begins like "catch the room" ( when i need something like 24 - 26 for good signal level), but i can`t hear all this by myself. pc is 4 meters away behind the wall, only ssd enabled, fans are totally quiet. all devices are disabled. mic surrounded by pillows and blankets in improvised cabin . but i hear that noise and it`s definitely not mic preamps or mic`s circuit. i heared that mic on you tube and it`s not sounds like that. i tried 3 of my microphones but they all sounds almost the same. cables are good, second audiointerface same result. So i don`t know whats wrong. where can i hear raw guitar sounds from studios with noise examples - raw tracks without editing. Have you any videos about gain setting - normalizing audio and most profit algorythms for best snr when recording fingerstyle guitar, voice, vocal. I have been trying to find the answer to this question for a very long time. just following the headroom rule around 12db is not work here. also see your audiowave in Studio One and it thick enough to see it.. And sorry for my English
Great video, and the side to side made things so clear ! but I wonder what would happen to the sound if you would use a band compressor to address that low boom on the first recording. What would happen to the overall sound of it then?
Great subject! Other than my own projects, I pretty much only record acoustic singer/songwriters because I don't have much space...and there are literally thousands of them out there who will pay to record a song. I have set my studio up specifically for this type of recording. :)
Joe Gilder • Home Studio Corner that's true but noisey drums and loud electric guitars could be a problem in my small studio. When I do my own stuff, I use programmed drums and a Headrush but not everyone wants to work that way. I have an SL32sc so can record 16 channels at once but I rarely do it :/
Joe Gilder • Home Studio Corner by the way, is it possible to route my computer output out of the computer and back into StudioOne so I can record it? For example, I often want to take a song from Spotify and record it into my Daw to use as a reference track is it possible to do that with a Series 3 mixer?
I know the first one is kind of dull-sounding, but I still prefer it to the 2nd because I really dislike the percussive punch that's going on in the 2nd one. I find that really distracting. Perhaps a different guitar part recorded like the 2nd one would have sounded great. Nevertheless, the point is well taken re: pulling the mic back from the guitar a bit.
I don't use an acoustic guitar. I'm all electric, and with acoustic, I use plugins, or if I'm using my external multi-track, I use the acoustic settings. Have you ever tried using a pickup for the acoustic guitar?
Hi Joe, you allways record acoustic Guitar in stereo mode? In stereo mode, if we pan the guitar we don´t loose the signal of one fo the sides (left or right)? Thanks for your excellent job and generosity sharing your knowledge.
Great video. Quick question, were you gigging much around the time of the first recording? I've found in my busy season, I'll gravitate to the guitar-pickup's tone subconsciously. I kind of get that tone from the first recording. I could be way off, but it's a trap I've fallen into!
Hey Joe- good vid. I'd be interested in hearing you discuss how/whether to incorporate internal acoustic pickup with the mic input when recording acoustic. BTW- wondering why you didn't start by rolling off the low end on the first track...low E string is roughly 80hz. Shouldn't we roll of everything sub 80?
Nope. I'm not a fan of doing things by default. Or doing things because they make logical sense. I'd rather only do things like add HPF if the track needs it.
Great tutorial. How would you record an acoustic/electric with a really nice preamp? Would you record the DI and two mics together? ...3 tracks for one acoustic?
Very nice! In case you are looking for video ideas: More detail about recording an acoustic? I am not experienced in recording and struggling to get an okay sound. I have a dynamic mic (shure sm57), i tried to record from different angles and distances but i am not too amazed with the result. It's very quiet, i have to increase the recording by 10-20 db from studio one, but even then it's still pretty quiet. Further increasing the mic input in my audio interface causes alot of noise.I am a bit clueless, is it normal and i just need a preamp?
@@HomeStudioCorner Thank you, i read condenser mics are much louder. However i checked quite a few sm57 acoustic video before buying it, it seemed to produce good (and loud enough) sound, so i expected it's because i miss something. :(
I often put my headphones on and move in different positions until I find the mic sound I like. Also I tried different mics till I found the one that I like.
@@DKinMN you can have a song that you like but it doesnt sound good. Personally, i hear that a lot from stuff I made a few years ago. People like what it was made but it sounds weird, mostly due to the inexperience I had (not that I have a lot now) and what I used to record
The thing though is that depending on the mood of the song and of the arrangement I might favor one or the other. Think about how Nigel Godrich used tons of compression on some of the tracks of OK Computer but it helps to convey a certain vibe. I think your demonstration is interesting because it teaches about the proxy effect and understanding the song you get form positioning a mic a certain way. But in the end if you know what you are doing there is no right or wrong. Bad or good can only be assess in the context of a mix.
The flashlight comparison is just brilliant! I tend to favor warmer acoustics(thanks Wilco), but the best lesson I've learned recording them is to give the mics some space.
to me the problem is phace correlation, you can clearly hear it when collapsing to mono... and honestly is pretty easy to fix, secondo rec is less stereo, less sustain on the bass and more attack which I don't personally like...
I think what most of us (certainly me) are struggling with is the fact that in almost all the videos about mixing and recording, the differences are so minute, that it's almost impossible for me to pick them up. It seems like the level of ear training you need in order to produce a halfway decent mix is far beyond what most songwriters and home recorders can realistically achieve when still working a regular dayjob. You know that moment when you see a vid like this and they compare two recordings and say "this sounds like night and day" and you are like... "I have good headphones. I have good studio speakers. I even have the room treated as best i can. but.. i .. can't hear a difference". And then there are all those subjective terms like boxy, muddy, boomy etc. It's just so frustrating.
Here's the good news. You can know exactly what great tracks sound like by listening to your favorite albums. Let's use electric guitar as an example. If you give two guitarists the same exact rig, and one dials in tones that sound amazing, and the other dials in tones that sound pretty bad, you know that the difference isn't the gear itself, it's the person using them. The one who dialed in the good tone doesn't magically know where to turn all the knobs. He has learned over the years to recognize what great tones sound like, then he adjusts the equipment to arrive at those great tones. If you struggle to get great-sounding recordings, perhaps you need to set some goals for yourself. "I want this guitar part to sound like the guitar in X song by X artist." Now you have something to shoot for. Otherwise, you're aiming at a target that isn't there.
It's just that you probably don't know what do look for when hearing. In this case I couldn't really tell. But when Joe started comparing both tracks it, the first one really sounded plasticky, almost like you're playing electric guitar through an acoustic simulator or something. It was really interesting
Hate to say it, but just like learning your instrument, this requires a lot of deliberate practise and repitition. I struggled to understand compression and EQ but kept on going at it until it just clicked some day. I understood exactly what someone meant when they said this kick sounds muddy, or the snare has too much ring or these vocals are sound thin. I understood what someone means when they said that the kick sounds smaller after too much compression. These things take time to form that mental association in your head. But trust me, I am a beginner with lots to learn and I absolutely understand the place you're coming from.
The more critical listening you do, the better you’re able to hear those certain thing, but they are certainly subtle and usually “night and day” is a huge exaggeration. But as an engineer, I do believe that the subconscious is very important. So much of experience is subconscious, countless subconscious details adding up, but with practice and experience, you can sensitize yourself to these things and make yourself aware of them. An engineer should strive to hear and understand these subtleties, and use that knowledge to produce the most pleasing sounds as possible (or produce whatever sounds best fit their goal). Whether the audience is aware of these things is not important, because these things make a difference with the subconscious experience.
it sounds so bad for me sounds mixed and muffled and I have used dozens of mics set ups and recorders same problem also I don't like the second recording it sounds tinny and it is missing some warmth sorry
This is the closest I've come in 20 years to finally understanding why my acoustics always sound scratchy, harsh and boomy all at the same time. I think I've always mic'd as close as possible in order to try and eliminate as much hiss and room as possible. My rooms have never been treated well due to budget, so I'm constantly trying to cheat my way around it. Now, my NY resolution is: move further away... and finish those acoustic panels... Thanks so much for all this incredible content man, you've no idea how helpful it is.
