Yup definitely and it's causing me to loose tables. It actually broke one of the legs too. I didn't notice until I started loading everything up. Anyone who thinks match bullets don't work for hunting don't have a clue
Thanks. So I actually was just doing animals for years hunting and studying. I only started using ballistics gel as a tool to show people the differences between bullets and educate on terminal ballistics. Adding the controlled testing with gel and actual field results hunting. The combination is the best way to really study bullets. There’s a saying I live by “the bullet never lies”. Hope you have a great hunting season happy hunting.
Now you say the Berger held up and stayed together? What was the retained weight of that bullet. I don’t doubt that the bullets kill, and in fact some cases they overkill every piece of meat they touch, not to mention all the shrapnel littered about as it impacts. There’s a very good reason for bonded bullets and that is they hold together, retain their weight and don’t ruin a ton of meat. Bergers kill and they are accurate bullets but in my opinion shouldn’t be used for hunting. Just my 2 cents but to each their own. Enjoyed the video
Have you done any videos on SMK’s? Curious about your thoughts/experience with them? My daughter recently shot a big cow elk with an 18” .308 and 175 SMK. Shots were from 460 yards to 250 yards. 8 total hits, full penetration on all but two that hit the large round bones on two legs straight on. The problem was no damage in between entrance and exits thus all the hits. Four of the eight were double lung shots. Do you have any similar experiences? Using Berger Hybrids and now Eld-m’s and x’s on probably 50 animals I’ve seen amazing performance with all of them. Just wondering if the SMK is the exception to the rule?
So I have a couple links for you of my videos on this. So a flaw with bthp bullets especially with tiny holes. On impact the hole can become clogged with hide, fat, meat, etc. It effectively turns it into a fmj resulting in penciling, tumbling, and or changing directions. The smk is known to have that happen but it isn’t the only one. The DRT terminal match and Hornady bthp match have this happen too. Monolithic like Barnes tsx etc are highly susceptible to this happening. Now you can enlarge the hole to solve the issue. However it can change the weight and negatively affect the BC. Berger solved this problem with their new hybrid design. They have a massive cavity inside the nose of the bullet. Upon impact the nose collapses in forcing expansion. So even if the hole clogs the nose collapsing will still cause reliable expansion. Now tipped bullets have huge cavities that the tip sits in. The tip keeps it aerodynamic for better bcs. It also aids in expansion as on impact it is forced back into the cavity. It basically acts like a wedge splitting wood. It goes back into the cavity forcing expansion. The tip also makes it less sensitive to impact angles. Honestly I switched over to tipped bullets because they are better. If I was going to go back to a bthp bullet it would be the Berger hybrids. My guns all love Hornady amax, eld match, and A tips. Also the sierra tipped match kings. I have one rifle I’m currently doing load development for with the 175 gr tmk. Here’s the video links if you have any more questions please don’t hesitate to ask. Happy new year and happy hunting. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tdztWjTl2EU.htmlsi=aaYhT6GP6602geNS ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cL3IQZSV0wM.htmlsi=MvVa79_lffA20-jD
love the videos, just got my hands on a 300wm and planning on shooting 1000yd+ target shots and hunting around the 600yd range for my personal boundaries at the moment. I have ran ELDX and ELDM in my 6.5 creed and loved them but I can't find any ELDX or ELDM for the 300wm platform but I can find lots of 185 and 215 Bergers hybrids. Just curious on what you have found the 215s terminal velocity is to get guaranteed expansion. cheers
The Berger hybrids will expand down to 1500-1600 fps reliably depending on the impact resistance and depth of penetration. If you’re going for small stuff like coyotes 1600 fps. Big game like deer and elk is 1500 fps. I recommend going with the 215 Berger hybrid for the 300 wm.
I have watched nearly every video you have posted on your channel and I am totally convinced on using the eld-m bullet this year but I see the Berger works well too. I have access to the eld-m or I also have Berger “elite hunter hybrid hollow points” wich do you think would be the better option?
Tyler Kessler Both are great bullets and perform extremely well. Honestly I’ll will run either one just depends on what that gun likes best. Bergers are more expensive and are a bthp. The massive cavity inside the nose of the bullet gives rapid and reliable expansion. Upon impact the nose collapses forcing expansion. The eld match is not as expensive generally around $40-$45 a box Bergers are in the $70 plus range. The eld match has a large cavity and a polymer tip sits in it. This is amazing for expansion as it acts like a splitting wedge. Upon impact the tip is forced backwards into the cavity forcing expansion. It’s extremely reliable and deliverers excellent terminal ballistics. Personally I like a polymer tip like eld match or sierra tipped match kings. That said the top performing bullets you’re really splitting hairs picking between them. Bergers except for the vld line, sierra tipped match kings, eld match, amax, and A tips are the top performers. Any one of these will give you top terminal performance. Either way you go you’re getting a good bullet. If you can afford to why not get some of both and see what your gun likes best. Glad you’re enjoying the videos and finding them useful. Happy hunting
Awesome. Thanks again for your response and abundance of knowledge. I luckily ordered 200 bergers that I will be loading for and I have around 600 ELD-M so I will see what it likes most! However, I do have another bullet that I have been curious about and haven’t seen mentioned on the channel, but it would be the ALCO precision bullets. They look like a custom version of the A-tip. Anyways if possible it would be cool to see if you could get ahold of a few of these for testing!
@@tylerkessler7630 the ALCO I have on the list for testing. However I have friends who use them for hunting and they perform very well. It’s actually got a slightly thinner jacket thickness than the eld match. According to my buddy they will expand down to 1200 fps. I can’t personally recommend them because I have never tested them. However he’s a expert in the subject and extremely knowledgeable. If he says they are good they are. Plus everything he says is exactly what I would expect by studying the construction and design of the bullet. Hope this helps.
Found that my Christensen Arms Ridgeline in 7mm loves the 168gr Hybrid Hunter that Federal loads in it's Premium line. Shot first big game animal with it and had great results. Shot a Cow Elk at 304yrds just behind left shoulder, she didn't make it 10yrds. There was no exit hole so she soaked up every bit of energy and suffered massive internal damage. So impressed I bought 3 more boxes today.
Awesome congratulations on your cow elk. It’s amazing the difference between bullets. I remember the first time I used a really good bullet. I never went back after that and it definitely makes a big difference.
I dropped a bull elk with my 6mm creedmoor with a 110 a tip. Video will be up soon it did a amazing job on it. Just got back home and downloading everything. You know the fun part 😂
@longrangehuntinggroup7223 Hey guys! Awesome video. I searched it out because I'm considering taking my .270 Win to South Africa for plains game. The round I'm leaning towards is the Federal Premium Berger Hybrid Hunter 140 gr. Can you please give me your professional opinion on my choice? Thanks, and keep it up!
The closest I ever shot an animal with a 215 hybrid was 10 yards. Killed just as good as every other time. Phenomenal bullet. The only negative is heavy bullets in general torque lighter rifles, so having a rifle built to handle that and spit a shot is important imo. Stock design and some heft imo for the big 200+ bullets
Unfortunately there's not a lot of options period for .277 which is why most long range shooters don't run them. Hopefully soon more companies will create good options for it. Most people using them currently are hunting at short distances. The X and VLD will kill but I'm not a fan of either personally. If you choose to run the .277 however you might have to use one of those due to it being the best option
@@longrangehuntinggroup7223 thanks for the input. I only got the .270 because it was what my local pawn shop had in stock (for rem700s) I'll try to work around it.
So all Berger bullets now are hybrids besides the vld line which is terrible. I've heard rumors they are going to get rid of the vld's. Now for the rest of the Bergers which are hybrids. They are just labeled different getting the same product. It's not uncommon and has to do with marketing and contracts. Take hornady for example they have critical defense ammunition for civilian sales and critical duty for law enforcement. They are literally the same thing. Same brass, primer, bullet, powder, and load. The difference is what box it gets put into. Military and government contracts in certain areas don't allow any bullet labeled for hunting. So a hybrid target and a classic hunter are giving you the same thing. I personally buy the target as it's usually easier to find. The hybrids we just cut open and they have a massive cavity in the tip of the bullet. The lead core doesn't go all the way up to the tip. This allows a small hollow point hole to keep the bc and allow reliable expansion. Apon impact the tip collapses forcing expansion. Very good design to overcome the problem with bthp bullets clogging and penciling through or tumbling. Any Berger bullet besides the vld will give you excellent performance.
@@longrangehuntinggroup7223 I know i'm a little late to the party but I recently watched Hornady's video on crit def vs crit duty. You missed the mark on that one. Very different projectiles. Those Barnes are impressive. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TKGPOFlaVJI.html
@@longrangehuntinggroup7223 okay how about 3,000 impact velocity for I hunt it could be anywhere from 10 ft up to 600 yd I'm not worried about the long range and I'm talking about elk
You will get rapid and violent expansion and trauma. It will cause hydraulic shock turning the chest cavity into purée. As you stretch out in velocity your 600 yard should be a little higher than the video impact velocity. Basically anything you hit in the vitals is going down hard and fast.
@@longrangehuntinggroup7223 that's what the problem is I've seen it not go past the shoulder bone from a 7 mm Remington Magnum on a huge mule deer . 168 vld at 2900 fps. One more shot in the ribs did him in
There's a big difference between vld and hybrids. I don't like the VLD line of bullets the original or the new design. Running a 168 gr and a 215 gr there's differences. The 215 is a longer bullet with a higher sectional density which will aid it in penetration for those high velocity shots. For close shots for best performance I'd recommend heart, lungs, neck, and head. Around 400 yards start doing high shoulder shots if you want. That will aid you in getting the best performance especially with the bullet moving that fast
i want to see penetration of major bone ,ie front shoulder of an elk before it gets to the gel.not every shot in the hunting fields goes as planned.not discounting your test just would like to see test done with a little more structure before gel entrance.as an example, a 1/2 moa windage error at 1000 yds can lead to a bullet impact on the front shoulder of an elk instead of a perfect hit tight behind the front shoulder.
So from in the field on elk and other animals the shot I recommend is high shoulder shots. It has no issue doing that high shoulder or behind the shoulder. Most bullets I cover here I’ve used for years on game. Most I’m not trying to see what they will do. It’s a tool to show people the performance and comparisons. I’ll eventually put a shoulder blade in this like I’ve already done with other gel videos.
No question the Berger OTM it’s a way better bullet. The smk unfortunately has issues with clogging. Most guys drill the holes bigger to make them more reliable. The problem is that affects your bc and you weight. The Berger has a larger hole and a massive cavity to prevent those issues.
This is cool video and impressive but can we please make a video of there being a shoulder blade or a rib bone of a elk or animal of equal or bigger size. I've yet to see a test done on this with berger and I belive it's because it'll undermine them. I would love for my theory to be proved wrong.
From field experience it blows right through them. I have a elk shoulder coming in I'll run a Berger hybrid through. I've done elk shoulders in other videos with a tips and eld match. Honestly there's not a lot of difference between animals and the thickness. They get longer and wider but the depth to penetrate isn't actually that much once you remove meat and look at the bone. A elk rib has around 1/8" more depth to penetrate than a whitetail deer. The depth to penetrate in the shoulder blade is only 1/10" difference. I took a bison with eld match which expands easier than the hybrids. I blew straight through the bison bones and it's got the thickest bones in North America. There's plenty of documented high shoulder shots with the hybrids on everything to moose. When I do the high shoulder video with the elk shoulder for you I'll include some pictures etc of actual field results.
Here's the a tip high velocity on a elk shoulder. The lower the velocity the more penetration you will get. m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dlm8x_D_Rno.html
That would be great! Thank you. shoulder with meat and bone with gel behind to see performance would be awesome! I recently switched to berger and have killed 2 black bear and 1 deer with them and I have had some concerns when hitting bone and the bullet just exploding rather than penetrating and have noticed this issue on the mule deer and I'm shooting a .338 lapua with 300 grain berger. The deer was the most concerning cause I shot and made a good shot but the deer had fight in him and was still up and going which made me concerned I made a bad shot (which I didn't and he certainly would had died shorty) and the deer began to drop down hill into a hell hole so I through another at him hitting him and hit in the middle of his back between his hips on the ass, and that did indeed drop him but when skinning and boneing the bullet had hit the bone and did tons of trauma to the surface layer but once it hit the bone it just exploded and didn't penetrate at all and was still stuck in his spine (maybe 25 percent of the bullet was still in tac) I was very surprised and then was concerned if I were to hit a shoulder bone or even large rib bone (mainly thinking of elk) if that would happen. I understand bullet placement is everything but shoulders get hit all the time and I was just extremely surprised with a 300 grain bullet it didn't push through (shot was 300 yards or less no crazy boomer distance). But im definitely looking forward to your test and I really appreciate the reply. Thanks again
So that has to do with bullet construction and shot placement. The bullet doesn't actually blow up. It rapidly expands violently and will shed weight at the outer part of the bullet expansion allowing it to penetrate more. Now with that type of bullet I don't recommend shoulder shots until under 2400 fps impact velocity for best results. The caliber is also part of the issue you have I big bullet with a wide diameter which means more surface contact for faster expansion. Going with a smaller diameter bullet like 6mm, 6.5, 7mm will allow you with that bullet more penetration at higher velocities. 338 lapua is pushing a big bullet fast and so you're hitting high velocity even at 300 yards. Honestly it's not actually necessary for that large of a cartridge for anything in North America. The Berger hybrids has a massive cavity just inside the tip so on impact it crushes and starts expansion rapidly. Couple things you can do is avoid shoulder shots until under 2400 fps impact velocity. Shoot heart, neck or head for higher velocity than 2400 fps impact velocity. Shot placement is what drops them on the spot. High shoulder, neck, and head is what will accomplish that.
The difference between a whitetail and elk is only 6". Depth to vitals is 3" on a whitetail and 4" on a elk. Depth of vitals is 10" on a deer and 15" on a elk. The difference in hide is less than 1/8" and the ribs difference only around 1/8" for penetration. People really overestimate animals and how they are built.
I find elk take a hit better than moose, ie I usually see elk run farther than moose if lung shot as moose have such powerful circulation that they bleed out quickly, but they still die.
Nothing to do with that it's physical. Moose though very strong don't move fast and don't travel up and down in elevaton a lot. A moose when shot will generally trot away a short distance and then stand there. Elk travel 4000 ft plus in elevaton daily to eat and bed. Elk tend to run and are lighter and more physically fit for speed. So when shot they run covering more distance vs trotting off and stopping like a moose.
@@longrangehuntinggroup7223 I also notice with bulls, they'll take a hit and stand like no other animal I've shot (haven't taken bison or musk ox yet), but the moose I've seen killed, when hit in the lungs, just tend to either not speed off or seem incapable of it. The elk don't love any linger, but they do cover way more distance; we usually find em within 100 but I had one I kept hitting, thinking I was missing, and had hit this cow seven times in the killzone. Proper bullet performance, broken shoulder, lungs gone, she just didn't want to go down. I wish I could find the variable why some are so damn tough
So with people you're taught to double tap. People don't actually understand why though it has nothing to do with killing. The first shot 99 percent of the time the person doesn't realize that they have been hit. The second shot generally they do and it can cause panic or them to go into shock giving you a advantage. The moose, elk, etc doesn't know what's going on and adrenaline and shock can cause them to not feel as much pain or be able to fully realize what's going on. They also don't know where it's coming from so they don't know where to escape. Moose are so large generally nothing messes with them. So they generally if spooked will go a short distance and then stop to re assess the situation. The elks first defense is distance so they will get out of dodge and try to put as much distance as possible before stopping to assess the situation. So when you shoot the elk and it has that adrenaline rush it's not feeling much and flight or flight is so strong that it doesn't notice that it's getting shot. By the time it finally does the lungs are collapsing and it's going into shock from blood loss and goes down. The bullet used plays a big part in this too based off the terminal damage it causes.
@@longrangehuntinggroup7223 100%, it also has to do with the way they perceive threats. For example, being an open country prey animal that runs in herds with a specific type of individual and herd specific behavior, elk have a completely different response to stress, and I belive they are more intelligent than a moose, especially a bull in rut mode. Most bull moose I've seen shot are like a tough guy in a pub who's been punched, unabke to perceive the damage and not seeing a threat closeby. Whereas elk seem to have a better perception of their surroundings (I'd say the moose beats them on hearing but nothing else), and probably less pain tolerance. Super fun to kind of break down herd mechanics and animal psychology.
Absolutely elk use distance for safety they have great long range vision and hearing. When in a herd if you watch they have security. They will face every direction so they can see threats. If not in a herd they are even more wary when something happens. Like you said moose are the opposite and are more prone to stay or go a short distance. Same thing with whitetail and mule deer. Whitetails are generally close up with lots of cover so threats are closer so they take off when spooked. They will cover distance very fast to escape the threat. Mule deer are more open terrain animals and don't spook as easily. They will generally watch you and then fun off a ways. A whitetail when shot will take off like a rocket to get away. Mule deer will trot most of the time or run fast but only for a short distance. Whitetails even in open country are still more prone to taking off fast to cover a lot of distance.
