That sounded like a tough room. Super interesting information. As for everyone eventually becoming Mormon, the growth rate is now very flat so y'all can relax.
@@allenanderson4911 He said that he humors people that are adamant about being referred to in a specific way because to him, it's a trivial thing to argue over.
@@draxthemsklonsthe makes a mockery of free speech by following the compelled speech rules that will get you fired if you don’t submit. He thinks it’s funny to give up your freedoms and be demanded what to say.
Does that growth rate take into account the estimated death rate that's going on at the same time? (Edit: Yes. An audience member asks this question at 1:00:32.)
I think Ehrman is missing a major element. Early Christianity mixed Platonism and Pythagoreanism with Christianity. To explain this, in Plato you see the Menos dialogue where Socrates explains that anyone can have access to the Logos which gives them the ability to Reason geometry. Pythagoras was both a Math mystic but also taught “love thy neighbor”. Much of Greek philosophy inspired by Pythagoras was the question “how can we gain access to the Logos, and what is the Logos.” Christianity emerged and within less than one hundred years Jesus was said not only to teach the Logos but Jesus WAS the Logos, an embodiment of the Logos the embodiment of philosophical mathematical and moral reasoning. I would argue that the Early Christian absolutism to truth is very similar to our rational scientific reductionist claim to absolute truth. And we are somewhat blind to this fact. I think the real claim of early Christians was that there was only one truth. But many scientific reductionists believe in the same absolutism. Then after 300 years Christian absolutism became a complete Dogma. The attack on the Manichaeans was the truth could not possibly have been Zoroaster, Buddha and Christ, only one teacher is the TRUTH teacher only one teacher was the Truth. We ought to learn from how easily Christian absolutism became stuck in a set of dogmas instead we think we are immune to dogma.
Very interesting points Matthew. It would be great to have a detailed picture of the "Hellenization" so to speak of the early Christian teachings and their role in conversions. Surely much would hinge on the relationship between pagan belief and the philosophical ideas you mention. Was there a "class" issue here - ie would the average pagan have any knowledge of these systems of thought?
From what we know of the earliest Christian group in Jerusalem, there were Aramaic speakers and Greek speakers, including those who ONLY spoke Greek. There’s a good chance these Greek philosophical ideas were known and influential, especially since Paul shows knowledge of Greek philosophy, rhetoric, and cosmology.
@@michaeltowslee4111 Great point, you see this with Paul. His letters are him trying to convince his followers about his theology, so he throws in anything he can, including plenty of Greek ideas.
Well, it is useful to understand that Constantine discovered that all the soldiers at the Milvian Bridge were Christians, The legions had been covertly Christian since the Talking Cross ratified the unilateral covenant cutting ceremony begun with the splitting of Jesus on the Cross. The legions Constantine brought back from Britain had comingled with the Druids and the Chi Rho symbol his Legions painted on their shiels was a Druid totem and represented the moral advantage that won the battle, Constantine didn't so much convert to Christianity as to accept the reality of his troops, Tertullian had observed that there were more Christian Pagans in Rome than polytheist. Bart is from the Gospel according to those who were scared shitless of going to Vietnam, such as Jimmy Tabor, He is in denial of the reality of the Roman anchor of Christianity, All his demographic shit is true enough, N.T. Wright's interpretation of Paul reflects the theological basis of the Talking Cross and the necessity of Pilate's lost euangelion as the basis of the Synoptic Gospels, The Gospel of Mark was in circulation by 40 CE
It seems very wrong that only Paul's letters survived,no one else knew anything or wrote anything worth keeping and the gospels were written 30-60 years after Jesus ,to make a good story up,something is rotten in Denmark
My seventh-grade social studies teacher (may he RIP himself, wherever he is) chalked this up to something referenced in the last lectures, that in Christianity there was the promise of "The Happy Hunting Ground" after you die. lol.
50? Come on Bart, if the letters existed where do you think they would be now? Maybe the Vatican Archives. A library nobody has access too that's guarded like fort Knox and the size of 3 football fields...? Maybe? Lol It's time you scholars told the Pope the jigg is up and please unlock the Archive's. We all deserve know the truth. The whole truth.
A major contribution to the success of the spread of Christianity was dropping the circumcision requirement .😱🤣Be safe. Be well. May your ups and downs have only soft landings. ☮🕊☯💙💛💙💛💙💛
Poor man t h e n because after his „reborn“ event he brainwashed himself into fundamentalism. Great, great man becaused he freed himself on his own by knowledge and pure logic. Now he is free of all terrible superstition. I like his lectures and his strong logic very much. Great scholar.
@@drgeorgek To the contrary, Prof. Ehrman asserts the Bible works as a theological text, but not so much as a historical text. Ehrman has an entire lecture on how the gospels are contradictory, so if one is true, the other is a historical falsehood.
@@christiki295 and thus how - in part - the contradictions of a so called inerrant text (the bible) freed himself from the shackles of religion.. sure it’s not a historical text but being the word of God you’d think it wouldn’t have so many errors. the other issue being his issue with the problem of suffering finally pushed him away abd logic and reason allowed to prevail
I think there is an additional stimulus in the Roman Empire for conversion to Christianity. The new religion gave personal dignity to a majority of the population, who in many cases were considered little more than animals. The view that in front of the new God, one was as worthy as anyone else, regardless of the social level.
@@atrevolutionwiththomaspain68 It's been estimated that the Roman Empire with a population of 50 million (in the first century AD) between five and ten million were enslaved. The slave in Ancient Rome was deprived of any form of innate rights, privileges, or duties. Thus, a slave was reputed to be a thing, not a person.
@@atrevolutionwiththomaspain68 The city of Rome itself became about 40% imported slaves who believed in equality before god. Eventually they were able to triumph over the Pagan elitism. That what happens when you expand the empire too much.
It’s true Bart is a great scholar and lecturer, but he doesn’t understand math very well, and messes this part up. Doesn’t really matter to his lecture as the point gets across, but just saying.
About the question involving early islam, where did you get this information from? Namely that they did not encourage conversion because they don't want people to "easily leave"!
sound like success but in reality the west was ruined because of moral issue, what the religion(christian) can do just watched and allowed being personal issue
I think a major factor that resulted in the success of Christianity is the inclusion of legends and beliefs from other cultures in the Middle East region. With ongoing historical and archaeological research it can be seen that stories within the bible have been taken from the Egyptians, Babylonian, Sumerian and other cultures. Make sense if you are a small religion to incorporate legends and stories that would be familiar throughout the region to claim your religion is legimate
Growth rates are often misleading - particularly when people try to extrapolate them into the distant future. They've got a saying on Wall Street that "trees don't grow to the sky". Even if "natural growth" in its early stages is exponential and lends itself to the kinds of analysis presented here, eventually growth does taper off - if only because (as in the Christian growth case) you end up taking over almost all of an entire population. Not every "tree" gets to reach that exalted stage, of course. (Many saplings - like Mormonism, in all likelihood - end up with either a limited range, adapted to a particular cultural environment, or simply die out.) I also have serious doubts about the capacity of "old", familiar ideologies like Christianity (even with its ever-mutating variants) or Islam, for that matter, return to their glory days of an exponential growth phase. That said, humans do seem to be suckers for the latest ideological fad - not all of which are religious ones by any means...
...for instance Bart mentions predictive exponential Mormon dominance in 200 years based on 40% decade growth model...yet recently Mormon Church leaders are sounding an alarm over the suddenly slow growth rate...and even larger drop off rates of attrition and apostasy...
In this lecture dr Ehrman talks about growth rates. I was interested to compare with Mormon Church growth rates Generally the church claims going from 300 members in 1830… to 15 million in 2013 Using a compound growth calculator…. This works out to 6% compounded growth Which was 18 new members added in the first year And which relies on no mass conversion events Keeping this in perspective…. A continued growth rate would result in 11 billion Mormons 300 years after the founding
Have the number of so called Mormons really increased in the last few years ? I know that there has been a considerable number of those " falling out " ! Today , because of the internet and debates on religions and their doctrines and claims, there are skeptics and Bible schikars who have and are challenging the very foundations of all bronze age religious beliefs and are becoming " the Nones " , who to the chagrin of religious leaders is fast becoming a large percentage of non believers !
@@worldpeacepatriot9448 Your observation may be true…though my comment was up to 2013. Never the less, the general principle is the same…. Ie a small fervent group grows improbably large through constant evangelical compound growth
So , its basically a proselytism and hatred based success . Not love of course. Thank you Bart Ehman for telling the world what my ancestors ancient Greeks suffered from these maniacs They hated the civilized world and they destroyed it in the end.
Hey Dr. Ehrman.... have you seen the amazing paintings of Sofia Montenegro De Viraci.... no... ah well that was because of Christianity's stifling misogyny throughout the history of Europe and she was extirpated as a witch... and humanity lost her would be amazing contributions to Art.
In effect it reduced us to half a brain, imo... Man's brain, that of men and men only .. only half the population.. therefore only half a brain. One can only imagine what humans might have achieved over 2,000 odd years without the misogyny ... twice the amount of 'progress'? whatever that is.
I find the title odd ... "Factors for Christianity's Success". I've always been told Christianity is the religion of God so how could it get more successful than that? Participation in Christianity is in rapid decline ... for example, take Quebec Canada ... today 82% of citizens declare they are Christians while over 20% of it's churches have closed and are now used for non-religious purposes. While people may say they are religious they fail to participate in religion. Is that success?
Obviously math is not your thing 😊 It is one man per year the first year, yes. But then it grows exponentially! Put it this way, the last year (after 299 years) you will have to convert about 2,5 Million people to get to 6 million. You see? Of course this is an avarage thing..
I wish Professor Ehrman would stop saying Christians believed in eternal torment in Hell after writing a book that says they didn't believe that and that it's written nowhere in the Bible. "People read Revelation as indicating that people who are opposed to God - sinners - will be cast into the lake of fire forever, and they will be floating in fire for eternity. And they get that from several passages in the Book of Revelation. In fact, the Book of Revelation does not describe eternal torment for sinners in the lake of fire. There are several beings that go into the lake of fire, but they are not human beings; they are the antichrist, the beast and the devil, and they are supernatural forces that are tormented forever." "In the Book of Revelation, human beings who aren't on the side of God, are actually destroyed. They are wiped out. This is the view that is fairly consistent throughout the New Testament, starting with Jesus. Jesus believed that people would be destroyed when - at the end of time - they'd be annihilated. So their punishment is they would not get to the kingdom of God. That also is the view of Paul, that people would be destroyed when Jesus returns. It's that they're not going to live on forever. And it's the view of Revelation. People do not live forever - if they aren't brought into the new Jerusalem, the city of God that descends from heaven - they will be destroyed." www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says
@Dr. Ehrman... I suggest you read this book... Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years --by Philip Jenkins
@@bvdswqawe11 ... what gave you the idea he did... isn't your presumption the presumptuous one??? Do you think he read every book that has ever been written???
@@bvdswqawe11 ... I suggest you read Ehrman's book ... and then read the book I suggested... and you may perhaps get an inkling for why I might think that he did not read it.
@@suelingsusu1339 I am addressing simply the breach of savior-vivre implicit in your formulation. Besides, I bet you dime to a donut, that he knows more on the subject than you after reading Jenkins book.
I really doubt the explanation for the growth of the number of Christians and irrelevance of Constantine's conversion? Why? Becaus of such thing as a growth limit. I looked at the growth of LDS church. It's also impressive, very missionary oriented, attractive in some ways and ridiculed in others. But their growth is declining for a couple of decades and I'd bet they won't take over.
the lecture is interesting and it contains some interesting ideas, but you can feel that he is not an expert on the late Roman empire at all. This statistical argument is valid, but not very powerful. What made the Roman urban upper class attracted to Christianity, what made Christianity especially popular among the army, why was it attractive to Germanic tribes migrating towards Roman lands. Why was it not attractive to the Huns? Why was it attractive to the Greek speaking population of the East and also to Semitic peoples from Palmyra eastwards? Why and how did Christianity spread succesfull into non-Roman Ireland and later migrated from there back to the continent? All those are specific questions, that have to be answered individually, not by one broad statistical argument. Also the umbrella term "Pagan" is really very broad. There were so many religions before Christianity: the classical Roman state cult, different Greek philosophical schools, northern and eastern European tribal religions (Celtic, Germanic, Thracian/Dacian,...), oriental cults like Mithras/Sol Invictus, indiginous beliefs in Spain and northern Africa, etc. Why did the Goths embrace Christianity rather quick, while the Alemannic tribes remained much longer supporters of Thor/Odin, etc.
Many of the early Christians were Pythagorean-Platonists and did not find it contradictory. In fact Philo the Jewish Philosopher before Christianity said that the Greek Logos is the same as the right hand angel of God. The Pythagoreans before Christianity wrote the Orphic rituals which were the death and resurrection of Dionysus. And Plato said: “They say that the soul of man is immortal, and at one time has an end, which is termed dying, and at another time is born again, but never destroyed. And the moral is, that man ought to live always in perfect holiness.” The Greek philosophers already denounced paganism and believed in principles rather than idols. Jesus became the embodiment of all the ideals.
Anyone ever see/play "Fate/Stay Night" where Sakura is trying to explain to Shirou and transgender King Arthur how sex works so they can share mana? I imagine a similar scene with Jesus in the bed chamber.
*********Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity 2 days before his death. He made Christianity the preferred religion of the Roman Empire. That is not quite accurate. Constantine was nominally xtian since 312-313 when he issued the Edict of Milan with legalized xtianity and allowed for freedom of worship. He also convened the Council of Nicea in 325… he was xtian the whole time… the only thing he hadn’t done was get baptized…and THAT is what he had done after falling ill on his way home from Helenopolis… and died after getting baptized… So… your statement that he converted to xtianity 2 days before his death is only in reference to the baptism… and he did not make it the ‘preferred’ religion, he made it legal and allowed… very different than ‘preferred’.
@@alahatzaifat1872 And perhaps you already know this, but it was not unusual at that time to be baptized on one's deathbed. Especially for political rulers.
@@alahatzaifat1872 To be Christian means to be baptized. Nothing more nothing less. Claiming to be a Christian is another matter. For instance, Constantine continued to mint coins with his face, he was Pontifex Maxima meaning the Head of Religion, he executed his son and his wife on the accusation of having an affaire etc. He organised the Council of Niceea in order to get rid of Arianism but he was baptised by an Arian bishop which was eretic at that time (Eusebiu of Nicomedia). End so on, many other events that demonstrate Constantine was not familiar with Christian faith. So his declaration that he converted to Christianity has low value.
@@VSP4591 ***********To be Christian means to be baptized. So I, who was baptized before I could speak (as the orthodox do), means I am xtian?? Hmmm… imagine my surprise when I left this faith when I was 10-12…. Hahahahahahaha… I was under the impression I was atheist all this time, but you said I was still xtian…. I’ll have to hand over my atheist agenda calendar and stop eating all those babies… good thing too, as I was getting kinda chubby around the middle… hahahahahahaha… ****************many other events that demonstrate Constantine was not familiar with Christian faith. So his declaration that he converted to Christianity has low value. I am just relating what the consensus is from theologians and historians. They accept his xtianity, so I will go with the consensus, thanks. I don’t care one way or the other. I was correcting the post above with what is accepted by historians/scholars/theologians… if you didn’t like my comment, take it up with them.
That last question there had bart answering just about every question I've wondered about him for a while. Glad to know he still really enjoys the work even though he doesn't believe and that he sees the value in what he has done.
A very naive look at the growth rate.... what if someone like an Emperor came and stopped it all... or ... helped it to keep going... or say an invasion or plague or ... what if all those pagans were not conquered and forced to convert to the Imperial Religion etc etc.
You can fantasize about those things as long as you like, but until there's actual evidence none of those hypotheses are something a historian can coherently discuss. You misunderstand the discipline.
@@lynwood77 "until there's actual evidence".... I suggest you learn history... it is a very well documented evidence.... here is a book you would be doing yourself a major favor to read.... Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years --by Philip Jenkins
@@suelingsusu1339 "HISTORY of Europe is not a fantasy" History of Christianity is not a fantasy either. "unlike the fairy tales of the NT" New Testament is a historical source. Watch more Bart to understand how surprisingly much we can learn from it. Just for example, Jesus was almost surely betrayed by one of his disciples and crucified. How do we know? Nobody would come up with a story like that. Nobody would try to convince you to believe in a guy, who couldn't even inspire loyalty in the inner circle of his disciples.
@@suelingsusu1339 Hey, Sueling: I will continue to pray for you. Please reconsider your rejection of Jesus Christ / The God of the Bible. God loves you and He wants you to know Him. God wants no one to be lost. Take care.
@@suelingsusu1339 Hey, Sueling: You always make such snarky little comments. I should know better by now than to ever reply to your silly, unserious remarks. So long...
@@thetruthaboutscienceandgod6921 …. Although you cluelessly have it in your pen name …. you evidently do not like the truth at all…. the Bible itself proves that its sky daddy is not God nor even a god at all…. no real God would demand human sacrifice nor prescribe Voodoo Rituals …. both of which and a lot worse the Bible attests that its sky daddy irrefutably did.
@Eileen Mcgovern asks, " What about the Holy Spirit as a reason for the success of Christianity." One should not miss watching, "Evangelical Roots of Breaking India: Aravindan Neelakandan" (Apr 9, 2020) to see how the Holy Spirit is working overtime in that part of the world.
@@MrDav020 In the ancient world the idea of the Holy Spirit was a nearly ubiquitous idea among the educated. Read Aristotle it is described in de Animus. And Zeno the stoic talks of the Holy Spirit as well. So the spread of Christianity could be described as the new philosophy of the Holy Spirit. Also many early Christians were Platonists and Pythagorean. In Stoic philosophy, pneuma is the concept of the "breath of life," in Jewish theology God Breathed life into Adam. The Logos was an important issue for early Christians. In Pythagoreanism the first number is the number three. So God the Monad, God the Logos, and God the Pneuma eventually became God the father, son, and Holy Spirit. The Logos is understood as the origin of reason and discernment. The spirit in the flesh is described as an embodied soul by Empedocles. Empedocles was described as a God-man of his time. So Christianity was a new form of stoic, platonic, Pythagorean philosophy that combined with Judaism.
I stay on Christianity. I can't blame Jesus because of the evangelicals who follow Him. I can't blame the ass holes who claim to explain him. Jesus was beautiful. Mr Bart is, trying to explain it. He fails. But bless him anyway.
@@MrDav020 I am sick and tired of egg heads trying to prove Jesus didn't exist or wasn't who he was. No one does it To Moses or Mohammed do they. No they have a stick up their ass about Jesus. I am sick an tired of my faith being trashed over and over again. It's like it deliberately planned.
@@patricialauriello3805 because Christianity is the biggest religion but only for the last 200 years and in 2077 it is projected that Islam will take that crown so maybe Islam will receive the most critism. You don't have to prove Jesus to believe in him but you can't prove he was who the bible states he was, but there is massive amounts of objective evidence that there was no supernatural occurunces in the bible. We wouldn't have known this if it wasn't for that research you detest so much and I would've still been a Christian which I'm very grateful for. Remember Patricia, the truth has nothing to fear from investigation.
@@patricialauriello3805 why u feel so sick and tired? i dont see u explaining something here even on ur channel, i would love to see how you rebuttal bart
@Eileen Mcgovern asks, " What about the Holy Spirit as a reason for the success of Christianity." My answer: Not Holy Spirit but inquisitions, destruction, and what not. That part of the world went into the Dark Age _because of Christianity_ . Don't miss out on reading Catherine Nixey's book, "The Darkening Age".
@@Nonamam writes, "But a posit like that needs evidence". If you thought that Christianity was spread by preaching peace and love, you are _completely ignorant_ of history. I have already given reference to Catherine Nixey's well-researched book. There are several books that detail how Christian teaching was primarily responsible for antisemitism. See, for example, _Christian Antisemitism: A History of Hate_ by William Nicholls. [BTW, India has probably been the only country that did not persecute Jews. Not only did they not persecute them but made them feel at home.] When someone says that Islam was spread by the sword, everybody nods their head vigorously in agreement. _Christianity has been no different_ until the last two or three centuries. This history has been whitewashed. BTW, what his happening now is covert cultural genocide: the conversion industry worldwide is a _billion-dollar_ industry (in 2012, USD 13.5 billion was spent on conversion activities). As far as India is concerned, don't miss watching, "Goa Inquisition : Lest We Forget | Shefali Vaidya" (29 Mar 2018). I am sure the Holy Spirit was playing a vigorous part. This is how the native religions elsewhere were systemtatically wiped out, and that too within a very short period of time. India is the _sole country_ that has withstood centuries of onslaught by these two monotheistic faiths (monotheism always leads to violence and conflict). Even a schoolboy would be ashamed to make the following argument: Claim: My religion is the only true one, and everything else is false. Proof: My Holy Book says so. Such exclusivistic truth claims are BS, and based on _belief_ . What can be more laughable than saying _my belief_ is superior to yours? "Proving it" by citing one's own Holy Book, of course!! Fortunately, Near Death Experiences (NDEs) are showing how false these exclusivistic truth claims are. I wonder how many believing Christians would have the courage to watch IANDS videos (IANDS: International Association for Near Death Studies). There are quite a few doctors who've had NDEs and shared their experiences.
@@edmckay8001 "For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved, it is the power of God unto salvation of all who believe"....Its unbelievable how the cult of atheism survives in the 21st century...i hope and pray that all atheists evolve out of atheism into the light of Christ...
