@@waratahdavid696 I'm afraid that's true. Back in 96 some of then would still have had experience of comtested-ish scrums in RL. Terry O'Connor would have been superb as a union prop but then again it takes years of coaching to understand how to cheat effectively as a front row forward in union.
@@waratahdavid696 Yes as much as the idea sounds good, it just can't happen, also Union defense could not adjust to league attack if they played half each code
Love both codes. More of a league man. I follow the Gallgher English premiere league and Super League. I quit watching the NFL 3 years ago. This stuff is way better for me.
I like League, Union, and Sevens. Wish I could find a streaming service online to show all 3, that doesn't require subscribing to a tv network package. My favorites are NRL for League, Internationals for Union. Always look forward to State of Origin best of 3, and Roosters-Rabbitohs rivalry when both are having good years. For Union, I like the All Blacks. USA for Sevens. Really getting to enjoy Union more and more now that I'm getting the nuances. I like the constant flow of Union WHEN there aren't a lot of ruck penalties. And on the con side, Union is seeming to be getting a little over-officiated, including too much TMO time. I like the kicking aspect of Union, whereas many League fans don't. However League seems to be emphasizing kicking a little more with the 40-20 (and I think they instituted a 20-40 as well now). League should also raise the drop goal points to 2, instead of the almost useless 1. I notice that Bath players look so small in this video compared to the bigger Union players of today. Except for the props, League players all look like a team of Union wingers, built for speed. I imagine Union is closing the speed gap now. Don't really want a unified code though, as some have suggested. I think that would especially hurt Union more than League. In these cross-code contests (which I'm not really a fan of), I believe the ruck is the biggest challenge for the League players. Union players probably struggle some with the play-the-ball 10 meter backup (which gives the speedsters more room to get a running start), and having to cover more ground individually. Wish the USA were a little more competitive in Union. We hold our own in Sevens (when we can keep it together). I'm afraid that for Rugby to really take off here, we would have to sacrifice one code for the other, in regard to Union/League, to build an appreciable fan base with more than novelty support. America already has 4 major league team sports contending for air time and money, with MLS a distant 5th. On top of that, college football might be considered to be almost on par, fan base-wise with the NFL. So that pushes the others down another notch. Sevens is kind of immune to that because it fulfills a niche role, doesn't really have to compete for major venues, and has a short season. So as much as I like League, I would rather see USA push Union. The Union Eagles are well ahead of the League Hawks in development for one thing, and Union is what the colleges are going to be playing anyway. Got to really get it going at the high school level too. Since most high schools in the South and (probably) West don't have hockey teams, rugby could compete with soccer as a 4th sport. It's different enough from American football to have its own interest. Also, if you played it in the spring opposite baseball, it wouldn't have to directly compete against football and many football players could play it as well. Not really a problem at college level, because by then, most kids will have picked a sport and not be multi-sport athletes. Just my two cents worth.
It's pretty clear that what undid Wigan in this game was the complexity of the Union rules at scrums and rucks rather than Bath's innate ability. Disappointing to see Bath going for goal with each penalty. Wigan's tries revealed where the real talent lay.
They were superb at turning an error into points as Stevo said in commentary. The thing is for all Bath were thrashed in the rugby league fixture, that was because they didn't have any instinct of how to defend in rugby league. But the same thing happened to Wigan in this game with the tries Bath scored. It's different defending ball coming out of a union ruck or a lineout or a scrum than a ruck in rugby league.
These days both codes are more different than those days. Each play, each position is much more professionalized. I really want to see League England vs. Union England!
Stuart Barnes still talking utter bollox, strange but very true. This was a great advert for both codes, Bath did well considering this is their version of the game, Wigan I think could have won this, a few basic errors cost them, hardly surprising really, but what a day out for the fans. I played union as a hooker but love watching RL, the other game in this series was brilliant!
Seeing Wigan run from everywhere was impressive but seeing them keep the scrums up even when they were going backwards at a rate of knots was even more so. Any Union team now would drop the scrum immediately and take the penalty. Coaches seem to like that sort of cynical play but as a fan I'd prefer to watch teams play like Wigan (yes I know they were heavily beaten...still though).
For a game that is notoriously shit for scrums ATM ,Wigan showed how simple scrummaging can be ! Yes they gave a few penalty tries away,but no resets and no collapsing ! Fair play
I'd suggest Brian Campsall, the referee, should have stuck to his day job - a secondary school games teacher. Unfortunately, as I know from first hand experience, he was crap at that as well.
An amateur Bath out score the full professional Wigan side 7 tries to 3. And only kicked one penalty the whole match, even without their best attacking player. I know which kind of game I prefer.
+Christine Henly You did notice which team scored the exciting, length of the pitch tries I take it? Union is sooooo boring. And it was 14 tries to 1 at the man's game. I know which game I prefer.
Interesting that Wigan showed up quite a better better than Bath had had in the League match as the Wigan players were hardened professionals where as the Bath guys would have been amateurs until a few months before this.
The Bath guys were technically amateur but in reality were full time and paid through sponsorships. That was a big part of the problem - some Union players like Jeremy Guscott 'earned' far more than the best paid UK League players. Thankfully that all changed.
Possibly because a few of Wigan's players were union players originally (offiah, quinnell, tuigamala,I imagine Henry Paul must have played union growing up in NZ), but to be fair they did do quite well,if it had been uncontested scrums it could have been pretty even
@@alanpelz a lot of the wigan side were top union player who crossed codes to earn cash as union wasn't professional not to mention the bath side is amateur. A better representation would be the storm vs crusaders now.
@@mitcholeary1526 Actually to be fair only a couple of Wigan players were from Union at the time - and though technically amateur Union players at the time were paid through different means (for example a high paid job at a big company that they never did anything for other than attend the occasional public event) many of them highly paid. I am a league fan but not a union hater to be clear - at the time these two teams were barnstorming teams and all players were in the top pay bracket :-)
@@deepanalysispodcast Just send through the evidence of (for example a high paid job at a big company that they never did anything for other than attend the occasional public event) cheers
@@floydkingi4364 Ray Price only played 7 union tests as he signed with Parramatta eels, he would've played a lot more otherwise, he wasn't called Mr Perpetual motion for nothing.
@@shanefelkel9966 At least they have international rules games combining the two sports to one. Compromises for both and they meet at the middle rules wise
I like both codes but prefer union. Ive never quite understood the league saying union is stop start. To me league is stop start. Guess its in the eye of the beholder.
@@lapalad In theory, Union is free flowing because the ball has to be released in the tackle but it doesn't take a genius to figure out this will inevitably lead to penalties being incurred - thus in practice Union is more stop-start.
The irony of that. League is just "tackle, rest, reset x5 then kick and pray". It's so repetitive. Union has so much more variety on how to play the game.
Bath being awarded penalty after penalty. Wigan denied possession for most of the game and get a perfectly good try disallowed. Despite that they still win the second half. It would be interesting to have a rematch. But looking at the spectacular quality and sheer athleticism RL over the last few years (especially with amazing mid-air corner finishes) RL would take some beating. RU has got faster and fitter but the biggest factor for me is (and always has been) that RL has to be fitter as the ball is in play far longer than RU with its stop-start technical nature. RU the ball is typically in play for 35 out of 80 minutes (far longer than it used to be! But in RL the average is 50 minutes (nearly 50% longer)
You forget about the rolling maul. League ball carriers go high into the tackle because they want to suck players into it. In union they would just get held up and turned over.
Union is a much stronger sport, when I say that I mean physically, everyone forgets about mauls, scrums, rucks and just the fact that Union has bigger players, yes Union runs less, but Union has more skill and patience than League, and Brains are a lot more important in Union
@@DJ-ce3hq I disagree with just about everything you say except yawnion players are bigger. As for brains, these are surgically removed from every yawnion forward as soon as he shows any promise. Your comment is redolent of yawnion snobbery.
I don't think its so bad on another look, save for that forward pass. Campsall was quite pedantic but RU is frustratingly technical when it comes to penalties and the ref blowing the whistle.
Pretty ordinary from Bath. Compare this match with the return fixture where Wigan just rip Bath a new one - Wigan stand out for their fight and their attitude.
I think the ref helped Bath quite a bit. Let’s face it Maurice Lindsay promised Bath that they wouldn’t put 100 on them during the League game and to win in their own code, Bath took a lot of penalties and showed minimal flair.
The Wigan guys are bigger, fitter and much stronger. Interestingly, the second half was 19-19 (a draw) and if they played again it's not unlikely that Wigan would win under Union rules. Bath just collected as many points as possible in the first half knowing that they did not have the fitness to compete. Rugby League is tougher: harder (and more!) tackles, fewer men, having to keep moving to hold the line (it's non-stop) whereas Rugby Union is far more complex with more stoppages and pauses in play. Although I personally preferred to play Union, I admit League is not only harder (to play) but also easier for a non-rugby person to understand, whereas rugby union is just complicated. That said, I still prefer union.
@@NoName-hg6cc They aren't well versed at scrums, it isn't part of the League game. Scums need skill and training to the point where they have scrum machines (no need for it in League), never under-estimate anyone, especially those who are better trained at it.
In all honesty, as pretty much the best league club team of the time, Wigan should have been playing either Auckland, Northern Transvaal or Queensland. I'd say the union scoreline would've blown out to eighty points or more. The league game scoreline would've been like 80-25. Those Kiwi and Aussie players would have been more familiar with league.
There's loads of NRL club sides better than Wigan were, over the years, this isnt even the the best Wigan side, the side of 6 or 7 yrs before was better, Gregory, Lydon, Goodway, West, Bell and probably THE highest quality British Rugby Player of all time (either code ) Ellery Hanley
Guscott is no coward, and it's wrong of you to say so. Did it occur to you that he'd played against Tuigamala many times over the course of his career, including with the British Lions against the All Blacks in 1993 (well before this game)? Guscott was a great player, and wasn't afraid of anyone. Ten out of ten people would chose to have Lomu in their team over Tuigamala, and Guscott played against Lomu many times too.
There is a game called hybrid rugby which has been trialled in Australia, a few games have been played between junior level union and league teams. Interesting hybrid rules but ultimately I don't think it will take off. People either mainly like tea or coffee but not both in the same mug. The interest in the old games between Wigan and Bath and the 7s games was watching a team play a sport it had largely never played before, although Wigan had Quinnell, Tuigamala, Offiah, Tatupou, Edwards all of whom had played union either at school, club or representative level. Bath had no one who had played rugby league before
@@homeone4054 I have said before, at junior level in England, union and league should combine because the skills of running, passing and defensive lines are the same. Scrummaging and lineouts can come much later. I know it won't happen though, but it should.
It’s also been played half and half between St Helens and......I want to say Sale? A few years ago now. Aggregate score was used if I remember. But it doesn’t really work today. Back in 1996 union was not, or was only just turned, professional. In contrast to that Wigan had been full time for some years which could not be said of all top rugby league clubs even at that time. Today, you would have to have uncontested scrums as the specialist positions to not exist in RL, so it wouldn’t really work.
said it before say it again union snobbery union is not the varied sport they make out stops far to much for penaltys noone knows what half are for league is the better game
Iain is bang on. Lomu is a machine, it is of course widely known he grew up playing league. He was spotted by New Zealand sevens star Eric Rush and was invited to try sevens and then union.
Lets put things in perspective,Wigan were the reigning world club champions after beating Brisbane meaning they were the best club in the world now compare that to Bath who were only the best in the NH but everyone knows the SH dominate rugby.Bath would've been smashed by teams like the Crusaders,Blues,Reds,Sharks and Bulls who were the best SH provinces then so it's an unfair comparison,the best league club in the world against the best union club only in the NH.I guarantee the results would've been totally different had Wigan played the SH champions the Blues who were stacked with All blacks including Jonah Lomu in his prime.The Blues would've been competitive in the league but would've destroyed Wigan in union.
Interesting point. What was the Blues line up in mid 1996? Similar to the proposal to have the All Blacks play the Wallabies a few years ago. Would be good to see but unlikely to happen.
@@homeone4054 Jonah Lomu,Eronie Clarke,Carlos Spencer, Zinzan Brooke,Michael Jones and Sean Fitzpatrick.This was the worst showcase for this spectacle you had the best league club side in the world who were professionals taking on the 15-20th best union club side who were amateurs.
@@mitcholeary1526 you forgot Charlie Riechelmann, Lee Stensness, Leo Falaniko, Joeli Vidiri, Junior Tonu'u, Olo Brown, Craig Dowd, Sean Fitzpatrick, etc
@@gus-qj2mp Yes I went to that game, the weather was torrential so Sale spent the whole Union half forming rucks and driving it the whole length of the field with the ball up the jumper, barely a pass was made it was a farce. The fact that Saints won the 2nd half 39 - 0 throwing the ball around in those conditions was miraculous.
@@leecheetham6031 Scrummaging, rucking, mauling, goal kicking. RU specific skills I guess he means. RL consists of only 4 things thesedays since the NRL and Australian TV demanded the game be sped up and removed the last vestiges of competition for the ball apart from smashing someone's lights out: passing, tackling, 40/20s and goal kicking. The kicking out of hand in league thesedays is nowhere near as good as it was generally in the 90s/early 2000s when there were more genuine footballers in the game. And yes been watching RL since the late 80s.
Manwell Haumu The league team would still most likely win under league rules but nowadays I think the union game would be a much bigger mismatch than the league game. Union teams have borrowed a lot tactically from league since this happened, and in terms of athleticism and ball skills union players generally match up well with league now, which wasnt the case at all back when this vid happened. I honestly think the ABs could probably even pick up a few wins against NRL and Super League teams under league rules today.
***** It may seem an easy game ..but having to get back the required 10 will be were they struggle as they don't have to do any of that because of the quickness around the ruck area they will struggle with ..
Look who showed all the skills and entertainment while playing the oppositions own game. Would have been even closer if not for the clearly biased refereeing.
happyspanners The biggest rugby market in the world (Australia, is dominated by league) The biggest and best league (NRL) league. Union isn't as 'international' as everyone makes out. You've got the home nations, NZ, France and SA on world level, union will be dead in 10 years in Australia. Whereas league has Australia, England NZ and Tonga. Not really that different is it, leagues also the national sport of PNG.
Alfa&Omega 00000 half of those aren’t world level. Australia NZ England Scotland wales ireland Png France Fiji Tonga Samoa USA Canada Lebanon. If you want to name all half decent sides
Having tried my hand at both codes, I can say that if given a shot, league forwards would run rings around union ones. I had never tried union until the day I scored three tries against lads who had been playing years and then as a league prop forward scored a full length try of my own. I also feel league as a faster more skilled game is more interesting. Union is far too kick-orientated. With all that said I'd love this to be a regular maybe once every two year fixture, similar to how the WCC is in league, get the champions of both codes together for two games and see how the clubs fair. Perhaps even make it a charity thing.
Sam Burgess is a prop or lock in league but would never be a 1st or 2nd row forward in a Union squad. Burgess could have been a decent Union flanker given time, but played at centre in union. Henry Paul sometimes played loose forward in League but was a centre/fly half when he switched codes. Thanks to the contested set piece and breakdown in Union there's not much equivalence between the front row and second row forwards between the two codes, nearly all of the league players in those positions would be flankers or centres in Union.
@@robw7676 Exception to this is Brad Thorn. Greatest cross code player ever in my opinion because he was the only one to do it in the front five at second row.
Good story bro. Where did you play? I played flanker in union. When my mate asked me to play league for his team I couldn't understand why 90%of the players were just standing around watching 4 -6 players only ever playing the game at any time
@@NoName-hg6cc the league game was embarrassing. Naturally bath would win at union but league as a game has a higher level of core rugby skills hence union sides consistently hire league coaches (plus the dollar)
@@cauliflowerpete616 Union too was embarrassing for Wigan. Core skills? Depends. Passing perhaps. But scumming, rucking, mauling, kicking etc...no. That's why League foward rarely play as fowards in Union
To Me ,A WIGAN RLFC FAN 58YEARS , THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A RIVALRY, BETWEEN THE CODES , LEAGUE HARDER THAN UNION ,and vice versa! I wish i had a tenner fo every time ive argued , saying League is Tougher WHEN THE FACT IS ,THEY ARE AS TOUGH AS EACHOTHER IN THEIR OWN WAYS ,I THINK LEAGUE AND UNION ,HAVE REALISED THIS ,AND NOW HELP EACHOTHER OUT ,WITH GAMES LIKE BATH V WIGAN ,! AND COACHES FROM LEAGUE TO UNION ,ARE THRIVING , ESPECIALLY ON FITNESS LEVEL,S ! ALSO THE FANS ,BOTH CODES ,ARE 2ND TO NONE ,BOTH THERE FOR THE FAMILY FRIENDLY , ATMOSPHERE! Rugby United ,is my motto ,Cos lets face it WE IS ALL DAFT AS EACHOTHER
Wigan another 3: weeks learning union n they'd win easily, look at what's happened, Edwards, Farrell, learning union how the game should be played, a fact , Connolly no wonder guscott wimped out Connolly was the silent assassin,
I was there and Bath made it as open a game as possible no kicking for touch and lineouts but no taking it away from Wigan they were an awesome team as the aggregate score over both matches reflected .
Haviing played both codes, wigan, widnes, leigh and union for Guilldford and Petersfield. The game for me was better playing league. Union is more of a kicking game whilst rugby more running. Great union and great league players would be great at both codes as they have natural talent. But i enjoyed the game and the clubs have great coaches and training.Union is much better at looking after their players especially being amateur.
You think union boys weren't taking any money? All the big union talents wouldnt have stuck around if that was true. Its still the pay for the boys now but its just gatekept by english selection
The scrums in both codes have been a joke for decades. An experimental amalgam of the two codes would probably make for interesting viewing. For me, Union is too scrappy with too much reliance on kicking, mainly due to fear of being tackled and losing possession in their own half. Three points for penalties and drop goals in Union is too many, as it enables defensive teams to play for penalties and win with negative tactics.
They need to dilute the importance of the scrum, either by reducing their numbers (give free kicks instead for some offences rather than penalties, or remove the right for the scrum to be called for certain penalties) and they need to have the clock off until the ball leaves the scrum half's hands at the put in. There is so much time wasting at every scrum before it even forms and the scrum isn't supposed to move until the ball is in. If there are "offences" before the ball goes in, it doesn't matter. They will simply have to get it right with the clock off until they do. If the forwards want to bugger around then they should do it on their own time.
Scrum in Union is not a joke. To me, league is too boring, just running, tackling and reset. No tactics, no strategies, just running. 1 point for drop goal? REALLY?
@@homeone4054 No, League should stop being so simple and boring. It's just running and being tackle, if you want to play in the field like when you were 5 you can, but keep rugby out of it, that has little to do with rugby
This series of games was really interesting, though proved little. I remember at the first scrum (Graham Dawe was wearing white boots I think just to to take the piss out of the League Primas) the front rows popped up and the Wigan guys were going nuts whilst the Bath guys were laughing - would love to have known what was said to stir it up!