Late to the party, but the first part where they're talking about threat, Growl makes a really good point in his fresh toon to KSM series where he really emphasizes allowing tanks to group stuff up before you start dumping healing, and even more so for DPS. One of the most annoying things pugging as a tank is people instantly ripping CDs and wondering why they get globalled before you can even drop a D&D.
Yeah, a perfect note... and that I think they missed talking about. the higher the pull (double/triple packs) the more dps and Healer need to wait for the correct positioning thats tank is preparing (looking for). Example, spending dps CDs in the first pack of the first SD hallway while the tank is running to the third pack (or in Ardenweald DOS big pulls). if it is not a druid spamming trash with incarn there´s no other tank that can holds the agro of the first one, and it´s not easy and it will break "the formation". And most pugs doesn't understand this simple concept. "owh you have problems with agro".
i feel like good dps inherently learn this even from just wanting to get big numbers. you want to make sure stuff stays on the tank so you dont have to waste any time/gcds on staying alive while also being able to cleave more.
WORDUP! Returned to BDK in 9.0 and it was really, reallly rough competing for threat at times with people looking to blast dps. H8U Fury Warrs xD Way better now, but our onpull threat is still pisspoor even in 9.2. I've been thinking for time Blood Boil needs to be a high threat ability. It makes sense as well, boiling the enemy's blood.
Man, the content quality you all are outputting is so insane. Is there anyway the GG org could reach out and invite some of the WoW devs who work on tanks to join these conversations? It would be fascinating to have simple theorycraft/ideology discussions like this but with them in the room. How do they feel about threat generation, how do they feel about kiting, pug communication tools (now that M+ is more solidified with the rating system), etc. -- Maybe just a pipe dream but damn that would be great content. As always though, thanks for all the work y'all are putting into these. Bangers.
Great tips and content. I'll also say, interview form definitely works here. There's a difference between a good coach and good player. Like these guys are the best, but there's an obvious aura like "I know my sht". Their answers are "It depends". Simply meaning they are more player minded than teaching minded. So the interview format where Drat leads the conversation definitely works here.
Biggest tip for new tanks, go dps, get geared for tanking as much as you can, do some 15s watch what the tanks do and than switch to tank and start in lover keys again to get confident and move on from there with your own key, if you screw up than its your key so its not a big deal, and play those lower keys as it was a high key to get used to the pulls and routes :) thats what i do to just get confident and dont be in constant stress, the worse thing is to go into pug, with low gear for the key and constanly just be dead the whole key :D
this, it does nothing but ruin yours and everyone elses night when you just get shit on as a tank bc you werent atleast somewhat prepared i regularly try to be semi decent at one of dps specs for what ever tank im playing atm just for the sake of learning routes and/or running raids bc i dont wanna tank em
I started playing WoW around the start of season 3, roped in by the RWF SOtFO hype. I decided to play prot paladin and jump straight into M+ and everyone was surprisingly helpful and by the time I was even into double digit keys I had my own routes, flasks and so on. In the end I got my KSM within a week; so even though it might be an intimidating role, even a brand new player can get KSM with enough perseverance!
The biggest issue for me as a tank main is that room for error is so small compared to DPS and healer. Especially on big pulls, a key level higher changes your timing of defensives and kiting, and sometimes one secod late of which might cause the tank's death and a wipe, whereas for mistakes of DPS and healer roles are less punishing. I believe tank role should be designed into a direction where tank leads the team to TIME the key (through a good positioning of mobs and routing), not to survive the key (dying because of one missed kick of shadowcore or non-stop wicked bolt).
there is even less room for errors for healers. You are constantly faced with split second decisions. The higher the key, the less errors can be made for all classes.
Love the content, some super useful tips. Biggest takeaway for new tanks: MDT is your friend. Most of the answers came down to the tank always needs a plan for what to do. MDT is just super useful for learning/planning out routes and one underrated feature of it is you can see mob abilities so you know exactly what you'll have to deal with in every pull. Once you formulate the base route and plan in MDT you can iterate CDs based on how pulls go. For instance, in Spires I've stopped using big CDs on the double spear pull to save them for the champion pack before the second boss.
The thing that really helped me be a better tank was to just pull more aggressively. Your dps will commit more cd's throughout the run that way, and it'll end up making each pull faster and more satisfying in the long run.
Did you guys forget to put up the clip doorki was talking about when he was talking about tanking Varruth+mobs.. and then the groundskeepers (so HOA).. cause he is talking about it and you guys are commenting on the movement while he's just doing the 3rd boss in SD..
Crimson rune weapon is really undervalued for threat. I know super strain does more overall, but crimson rune will do more to get you threat in those precious opening globals
Ya but then your using a defensive type ability just to maintain threat. More damage means more threat. Threat is a big issue for tanks in the game right now. It’s not an ability issue or a legendary issue, it’s that tanks haven’t seen a threat generating buff in a long while and they are in great need of one.
@@twi77tytelo6 yeah superstrain will out perform crimson in threat roughly 5 - 6 seconds after the pull. Usually by then you either have it or you don't. So yes damage = threat but the big issue is on pull threat where crw will help more than ss. Not solve obviously but help.
@@twi77tytelo6 little late to the party, but if you are using the crimson leggy, DRW becomes a 1 min cd roughly, depending on how aggressive you are pulling.
Really good topic but i felt like this video fell short. Would love to see this topic done again with less theorycrafting and more technical questions, mechanical questions regarding pulls , defensive & offensive ability choices for xyz.
Should've also highlighted another major issues with pugs that is Line of Sight pulls. The very first pull in Spires (and few others after that too) is the prime example of how DPS and even healer usually just stand in the middle and then wonder why are they getting hit by those mobs range spells and why "tank doesn't have aggro".
It’s not an issue, you can say „los“ and put marker somewhere and pull everything to them, unless you play weekly or lower keys they will most likely know what you mean
A thing ive been seeing while leveling one of my dps alts is that ppl seem to think that shitty low tier dungeons are like +15s or +20s and that theyll get some type of prize for talking shit to the tank regardless of if theyre a completely new player or a returning one. ive gotten to the point where i just flat out dont have the party chat box there unless absolutely necessary.
I used to love tanking on any class, but then people started going 1000% full derp CD spams before I hit the first mob and act like I was the problem. The biggest issue is, this only gets worse.
Thoughts on shards of domination in keys? At what point do you go for 252 ilvl over a shard? And what shards are the tanks prioritizing? I have been using my 246s domination pieces over my 252 m+ gear. And prioritizing the unholy and frost dps and blood and frost endurance type ones. Having 4 shard slots total
I consider a 15 a “key” in a pug, once you get to 17+, I have run into some funny characters, but with good selection and socializing, you end up with regulars that learn to work as a cohesive team. I keep myself at the top of my threat production, however, without 2-3 heartbeats of aggro advantage, I have had players pull an enemy off me. It is relative to their gear, I have seen a rogue go “buh-bye” after having his head caved in on a 15 because they saw my flames go up and he hit one of the other targets with CDs. I made a macro to brief the team about the delay needed to gather, a pull macro on which I always go at 2 and one that says “you pull it, you tank it, Bro/Sis, GG”.
About the threat issue, most of the dps players consider it an achievement to get aggro from the tank, they see it as an accomplishment. I love clueless dps players that die after popping everything on pull and facing the ground for the rest of the fight.
@GG WoW, one big problem I'm having recently is that my DPS are dragging on killing the last of a pack. I'll pull a healthy sized pack of mobs and the first ten or so die really fast, then the last one or two just linger on because the DPS are saving cooldowns for the next pack. Sometimes I can just pull the next group and keep moving but with some affixes it's a bad idea - necrotic, for example. How do you deal with this issue?
The only affix that really prevents chain pulling is Bolstering. On all other weeks I will be on the next pull while there is still several mobs up from the original pull. Things like necrotic should be able to be reset while moving towards the next pull. Same with things like bursting. You`ll get a good sense of how good the DPS are at controlling stacks, and how good your healer is at dealing with stacks in the first couple of pulls, and can start pulling the next pack even with 4-5 stacks of bursting active. Just be aware that if you do pull like that, you have to be prepared to keep yourself alive, as the healer may have his work cut out keeping everyone else alive.
Superstrain is still fine in 9.2 I was using my 235 for a while but when you fancy the fun rotation, defo Crimson Rune Wep! It's better to get used to Blood with Superstrain first tho imo.
Is it just me or are trinkets huge as well like the choice of what you have , it took me ages to get a scale on my dh and I instantly saw the difference when pulling having another “cool-down” ? Don’t raid much so struggling to get a ages at the moment , A lot of good info as I’m just starting to climb to 20 keys thanks guys !
Getting aegis on my DH felt pretty awful. The only saving grace was the fact that it was a boss early in the raid. I stopped trying to get it on my tank alts and just got them scales
what do you mean? pugging is like the imposter episode... people are boosted and so bad they seem to be intentionally trying to fail a key. most 2.5k players cant do NW 3rd boss hooks and people dont know manastorms have mechanics. pugging is insane.
Constructive criticism here: For a tank round table it seems like a lot of the commentary was on Blood DK which is a tank that absolutely should not be played by anybody new to the tanking role. You'll die. A lot. And that's on top of doing very poor damage and being considered an out-of-meta tank so you'll have a hard time finding groups.
also the tips on blood dk arent even great, half the top dk's use purgatory so to call it useless is ridiculous, especially when I was watching doorki deplete keys after getting insta-1 shot lol. its also not super optimal to waste vamp blood on pull, much better to rune wep with swarming mist and a rune tap (+ the dmg reduction on pull anima power).
@@Dilllll26 Their comments on Purgatory was specifically geared towards beginner BDK's. You'll never pop Purgatory in the +0-21 range unless you play bad, which is a much more important problem to address. You'll get way more leverage out of Purgatory once you enter high keys, which the tok DK's are.
@@Sajxi I disagree, better to have that safety net for a mistake, so all the pugs don’t leave when you die, which is easy as a beginner dk. If you manage RP and bone shield well you rarely need to press vamp blood till above 20 anyway. Doorki a great push level player procced his cheat death multiple times in this tyrannical 21 dos… cheat death has extreme value for dks, and most new tanks aren’t gunna have sun king trinket
@@Dilllll26 so you rather do mistakes on which you can’t learn in lower keys cause you picked purge just so you make the same mistakes on high keys where keys are actually over after one wipe because purge doesn’t safe you if you play poorly. Great idea keep it up.
@@RealCecilion stop trying to be a smartass, i didnt say purg was 100% better, i said they are underplaying its value. its not about "playing poorly", in some pulls there is always a chance to be 100 to 0 in sub 1sec on a DK, even with good play, especially in an uncontrolled pug where kicks can go through. as i said the video is literally evidence, dorki would have died MULTIPLE times in this vid without a cheat death lol, its personal preference, not red thirst is better. bonestorm would be better than red thirst in low keys if anything
23:20 this is an interesting way to say you forgot to pop incarn because ego. Your fake excuse "I need incarn for next pull" means nothing because you just chose to wipe on this pull. Top players? Pretty bad.
Very interesting video. I would be nice if you displayed who is talking, not necessarily by switching to another frame, but maybe just have their name in the button of the screen.
I mean they are talking about very basic stuff There is nothing crazy here except all these guys play in a group with discord since they know each other probably so thats why they got so high keys done I mean 80% of people PUG keys with no voice chat or anything - just follow the tank type of mindset I timed every 20 this season on my monk tank and most people playing this game are stupid as fuck but what can u do....
These people talking like tanking is all that hard... It just takes a brain and common sense. I guess its hard for content creators to come up with content during a drought.
Well then why are you not tanking 31s? And how is it that only tanking is „not that hard“ since you only need a brain and common sense for all roles I assume
You should use ur brain and common sense. The problem with tanking is that there is not many of them because a lot of beginners are being flamed even though they are learning. This video is great for those people
