Ben Cathro | The "science" behind how the pros clip-in! 

We are super excited to be working closely with Ben for 2024 making all the videos of all the things 🎉

From an engineering/physics perspective, you're spot on. But! cyclists, regardless of type, are limited by biomechanical considerations! I confess, I am one of those very uptight X professional road sprinters! One of the reasons why sprinters position their cleats close to the ball of the foot is to engage the quad muscles. These muscles produce far more power over a short distance, than the glutes. The glutes will engage more, when the pedal is closer to the center of the foot. But will never produce the power, nor the directional transition of power, through the pedal stroke, as engagement of the quads. I realise I'm going down a dangerous rabbit hole, so my point is to the exclusion of a lot of other considerations! My "guess" as to why DH riders prefer to position their cleat in the middle of the peddle is because the ability to control your legs in a bidirectional manner, is better. Quality video, Ben. The world needs more, down to earth inquisitiveness....

I’d be interested to see what position pro Enduro riders have the cleat position.

That road Biker cleat position comment made me chuckle

Thank you Ben for another very informative and enjoyable video. You are a giant in the world of bike journalism. Not only in stature but in talent and accomplishment. You also have a wonderful sense of humor. Your videos are top notch.

@bencathro more of this please!

Great content, as always. It’s something I hadn’t thought about much before. It would be good to have Ben interview a bunch of XC riders on the same subject, as the other end of the off road spectrum. As they have to consider going uphill too, I wonder where they would find the sweet spot.

Cannot get enough Ben Cathro in my life. Another great vid!

As I have gotten older, I have moved the cleats back as keeping them forward felt like my Achilles tendon was getting overstretch, especially on landings.

9:11 The 10g is just a 10x multiplier on your 94kgf. so 940kgf... not 100x. Your 94kg is already at 1g (i.e. 94 kilogram-force), so 10g is just 10x the amount. FWIW, 9221.4 Newtons (SI unit of force).

I’ve hyperextended my ankles on big hits while running the cleat too far forward.

Ben-O, God made you to do exactly what you are doing. You presenting and explaining anything mtn biking is always a great watch and full of good info. Sprinkle in that humor and it's great watching. Keep up the good work.

I don't have the patience to watch many 11 minute videos on anything and here I just watched a whole one on clipless pedal positions....and I ride flats....

Fantastic video! Thank you.

I feel like I learned something today, while at the same time I was having a good laugh with the interviews! Hats off, again, Mr Lanky Man

Sat here watching even though I run flats but happy supporting Cathro with views!

I used to have my cleats in the middle. In an enduro comp with longer stages, my calves were burning. Decided to slide the cleat further back just for a test, and never moved them forward. Then went to ride flats just to keep those bunny hops clean.

You really did your research, im impressed!

the wilhelm scream @1:30 was great!!

informative video, that was great!!!

It's nice to see the MFGs FINALLY listening. When I rode clipped in, I had to modify the shoes (Shimano ME7) to allow the cleat to move back a full inch over what the slots allowed out of the box. Was ridiculous. Eventually went to flats, and no longer an issue.

Wow! That actually made sense :) Thanks Ben!!

It would be interesting to hear from xc riders and the effect of the cleat position on pedaling dynamics.

Foot to Ground clearance to prevent foot impacts is needed to accommodate suspension and tire compression also can dictate the need for cleats to be rearward; particularly for riders with larger feet, more technical terrain, and/or lower BB clearance or longer cranks. This applies to many MTB disciplines, not just DH. Nice vid.

excellent video

I just tried clips for the first time this year after 30 years of riding flats on all types of bikes. I tried slammed back at first, and I felt like I was fighting my pedals. I ended up more central but most importantly when I got it to where I have it it felt right, It allowed me to stop thinking about my feet and could start thinking about riding.

Ok, now a video on this topic with trail riding.

Good data review 👍🏻👍🏻

Dang. That force difference between the positions really solidify my choice for a rearward cleat position.

Get flats and change foot positions for climbing and descending. It's easy and I've been doing it for close to 3 decades. It works

I find it very ironic to see this video when I was just considering this now. Forever, I have been riding with the cleat possitioned just behind the ball of my foot and also canted to be just inside from a lateral position. The reason was purely feel. It felt like the bast place. I am a road rider, trail rider, and in my younger days freerider/4 cross racer. In the past few years I have been riding a mix of clipped in vs flat pedals while riding with my son. (he's now 6 and a heck of a rider). But since I ride flats so much and work on skills in that vein I have been thinking of slidding those clips back a bit to still maintain the power for climbing while feeling a bit more agile. So,... this was a very timely video. Thanks for sharing.

Really love Ben he's just amazing 💯

Danny Hart with the simplest explanation, its what we were taught when guiding in Whistler, and even on my road bike I run them as far back as they go.

Big Cathro is the man.

Great stuff. I am very interested in a video specifically regarding hellcat pros and crankbrothers mallet dh setup. A lot of pro dh riders use this setup yet there is little info on how they setup their cleats and SHIMS and pin height. What feel are they looking for etc. Ben touched on it with Dakota Norton but he's not running mallets.

This was great knowledge and somthing I was actually thing about lately to improve my riding !! Thanks Ban you the man!!

The end of the video just killed me 🤣🤣🤣

was recently watching a bike fit video for road bikes it also suggested cleat position towards back

Amazing content👍. What about the enduro riders, would be great to see if there is any difference between DH and Enduro.

Ben please see what you can uncover in the world of Enduro riders regarding cleats, love the content

I never felt safe thinking about being attached to my bike in the event of a crash. I rode flat pedals and had a great time racing. Not sure where the clipless pedals were supposed to improve my riding. Yhis is the late 90s I;m talking about. It's crazy that it's still a thing the rider has to decide. What a classic debate!

Whoa, I thought the interviews would show some variation in that. But all clips down? Sheesh!

Very Interesting Great Vid , I have been a flat pedal guy forever, born from my BMX days Long Long ago , I was thinking of trying clips but I only Ride Trail on my MTB is there any benefit or is it just preference ??? I can see the benefit For DH .

A decent convincing piece of advertising. I’m straight off to buy some Helcats. Only Cathro could do that and get me to the end of the video.

damn, what a good information

I matched my cleats to the overal wear of my fiveten freerides and noticed I was about 66% slammed to the back but not all the way. looking at the shoe and eye-balling it I would have instantly slammed them, glad I checked!

Good stuff well discussed. I’m wondering about the plates many had between the cleat and the sole. I’ve never seen one. What does it do? Where do they come from?

Pedal position will vary based on type of riding. I don’t slam my clips back because I have to actually pedal up hills, unlike DH pros.

Any plans to bring the slip on Five Ten back? It's absolutely perfect for city riding.

How about the effect of offsetting the cleat from the centre line (side to side)? Or the angle of the cleat? So much to cover.

My riding shoes developed pitting about the very back of my arch from my foot position on downhill racing courses. An effective clipping mechanism should slide the foot backward in descents and move the foot forward for climbing. I would love to design it but I'm a carpenter. LOL Edit: Spring load the cleat to move to furthest back position unless climbing pressure demands a change. simple math with springs and such. so when you sprint the mechanism wants to be bunched at the toe and when you ease off it wants to return back to 2'3 rds of the way to the heal. Make it tunable so riders can set the range of movement they want or even lock out any movement. I hope some engineer reads this. It would be so amazing from my perspective. When your ankle doesn't need to move and the bike is taking all the hit it's a much better ride from my expert riding opinion. Only when you want the extra leverage for climbing does the foot position matter double edit: do you make the slide in the shoe or the pedal? Shoe might win if I'm testing ideas

Still funny. Quirky and informative. But your production value has matured palpably. I like the changes.

Haven't switched to clips yet, but I ride flats with the ball of foot forward of the axle, and feel much more planted that way.

ben cathro is a crazy nerd... i love it!

The reason you want the cleat generally as far back as possible on the foot, is for stability of the foot through the rotation. It's about levers. The further away from the ankle the cleat is, the more the ankle is going to flex, which is bad.

If I go back to clips, I’m being drawn towards a shoe that will have the most rearward adjustment, as I want my foot to be close to the position it is on flats

I think you'll find that if you're not a pro/racer, modern flat pedals and shoes are a great choice for everyone else. Side note, seen a few non pro riders mess up their ankles being clipped in. Flats allow you to re-position when you climb or descend.

Riding the cleat far forward, makes the Soleus Muscle come into play more. The Soleus contracts and lowers the toes. You dont want that in DH you want to lower your heels, which in turn as you mentioned in the video makes your calf act like suspension.

Thibault Laly 🤘btw what's the model at 4:52 ?

What I’m hearing is flats FTW

Wait, does anyone run their cleats forward? Also why I’m running Hellcat Pros

What is the cleats in the first person

Would be also interesting to talk to Rachel Atherton about where she likes her cleats positioned - whether the leverage had any impact on her breaking achilles tendon.

Any idea where Rachael Atherton keeps her cleats? I'd say that would be a relative question to be asked in a most sensitive way.

I have always bounced between flats and clips, but I have never found that I can get the cleats far enough towards the cranks, its always felt like I'm hanging half my foot over the outside edge of the pedal and I seem to be the only person I have ever met with that option, so i'd be interested to see if anyone else here has the same issue?

which leads to an obvious question - if a good percentage of riders are running full slammed back (and near no one uses full forward), shouldn't the cleat channels be positioned further back?

Even us roadies are moving the cleats backwards :) Different reasons, but in general it's more stable, reduces "hot foot" (not a concern for MTB?!) and in many ways reduces the load on calves - which often is not one of the strongest muscles). I think in general only the people that try to put their cleats way forward are the ones that like "ankling", pedaling with a lot of flex in the foot. And from what I recall, that's mostly for very high cadences and somewhat lower peak torque - some trackies, maybe TTs and climbing.

as a road and track cyclist i can tell you that on the track they ride it all the way back and even combine modern clip pedals with og straps. I heard climbers have the cleats forward but not us track and crit cyclistst.

Rafaella "Roxy" Wieschollek. Roxy Ride and Inspire has some thoughts on foot position and flat pedals.

Actually, very interesting Ben

I use extension plates to mount my cleats 35mm behind the pivot point of my ankle.

Race the bmx with the cleats also all the way back, feels better than all the way front, in the mtb also all the way back feels great and less exhausting as the "calf raise" mention by Hart

A comparison with the enduro clips would be interesting.

As someone who dabbles with his MTB simply due to time (I skate, surf, road cycle for fitness)....I didn't know that Enduro and DH riders even clipped in?? No wonder they look so bloody glued to the bikes! I thought it was just good technique of driving their weight down through to the pedals! 🤯 I'm confused..lol

Can we address the weakness of the 510 cleat nuts?

I actually dremel my slots about 1/4" further back. I like to have my cleats about where they would be on flats.

Great analysis from Cathro as usual! Two things though: 1. Is there a typo where you stated both cleat positions are 30mm distance to achilles heel? 2. Leatt 4.0 clipless has more rearward cleat option than the Hellcats. The most of any shoe I have found.

with 10g forces are only 10x higher, NOT 100 times higher... (so 940kg and 1425kg respectively)

First and forevermore shalt thou slam thine cleat full back. Full slammed shall be the cleat position thou shalt use, and the position of the cleat shalt be well slammed. Thou shalt not use use the middle and forward is right out.

I have a silly question.Is there beginner cleats ,as I’ve always went flats .Would love to try them .

Dear Five Ten, could you please release the hellcat pro clipless shoe in WHITE for purchase? I have wanted a pair every since they were introduced 3 years ago. I'll pay extra. I just really, really want a pair. Thanks for your time.

The % difference in travel and force are the same if you calculate it right. I've always opted for more proactive travel, particularly since it's faster responding than your thighs. that was a head scratcher to see so many pros off the back.

Leatt enduro 4 had the best cleat channel for enduro riding.

I feel like I am the only advocate for slippery pedals. It is how I learned to ride and how I prefer it 😂

Mountain biking since 94' with mallet cleats as far back as they go, it just feels right. Having cleats forward puts you off balance like you're on your toes.

Why don't shoe manufacturers allow for a wider (more rearward) cleat placement??? Well you answered that at the end of the video

I ride & coach enduro/dh and I run my cleats all the way back because... I can clip in faster if I unclip a foot, than I can in any other cleat position. Genuinely, that is how I arrived at the more rearward position (and I experimented) - riding really rough terrain, if I pulled a foot out for some reason I wanted to give myself the best chance of getting my foot back in without slowing down or fumbling. /\ /\ not sure why more riders don't use this logic. Using Leatt 6.0 shoes currently with old Shimano DX pedals.

Really wish y’all would bring back those white clipless shoes.. I think they were hellcats. Basically release the ones that Dak wears.

We need a wider shoes fiveten 😢

Switching to clips was simultaneously the very best and worst decision I've made on this MTB journey

ben. you should adress the fact that as a tall rider with a large foot. the futher back you run your cleat the harder it is to clip out.your toe will bind with the crank in most positions

Well... Looks like i will be moving mine all the way back!

I like to hit the pipe before I clip in. This way I really don't give it much thought or care if I'm doing it like a Pro or just a clumsy fool. Sometimes I think I'm clipped in but I'm not and still somehow manage to stay on the bike.

Awesome video. Coming from a history of track and road, this does make good sense on the clear position... My preference towards cleats for MTB is my riding style and general control of the bike comes part from my feet and thighs or rather just feeling better connected to the bike. Either way, I may just try pushing my cleats back 😎👌

we could use a wider "q" factor for this reason

How about us bumblers? are we allowed to clip in?

What about Enduro biking?

Ben has the right answer on positioning- ride flats, you will find your feet further back than on clips. More power, calves are weak!

Hmm, why is always one pedal more towards the front wheel and one closer to the rear? Honestly, don't look into studies about pedalling efficiency, if a good cleat position for DH only, is what you're after..

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