Benjamin A Boyce - Kellie-Jay and Stella O'Malley in conversation 

Kellie you have the patience of a saint.

Genspect seemed to be very friendly to and supporting Hayden and other men like him, but not so much their families who had been affected by it. Raising awareness shouldn’t involve being kind to them imo. It put me off and gave me a bad impression. I wouldn’t look any further. Stella was right, she needs to speak out, not let the work speak for her. We see happy smiley men in dresses in photos, a picture is worth a thousand words they say. Maybe it’s not a smear campaign, but disappointment. Thanks Kellie-Jay.

Dear Kellie-Jay, I was so impressed with your conversation. You brought up the incoherence, and unless Stella is a spectacular political liar, she SEEMED to take your criticisms in for future analysis. That you were both able to converse was fabulous, and I hope to see MORE of the two of you together!

Kellie your people skills are the business. Well done.

Kellie Jay you were amazing..... such clarity, so articulate. You couldn't go wrong, you have truth on your side. I've respected you ever since I started following you, and that respect glows ever brighter. Stella sure could talk the hind leg off a donkey, but I like and support her too. However, your view of the AGP guy at the conference gave her something to think about, and me too, I must admit. Initially I erred because I thought it was just about dress code and let's not be stuffy, but now I see that it was all about narcissistic gratification. That helps me to be clearer about the likes of Debbie Hatton too. Thanks KJK ❤

You handled this conversation like the boss you are. “Well done” 😅

This is an example of one person talking and talking and talking to deflect away from her behaviour, and the other listening and responding with clarity and purpose. Well done KJK🙌👏🙌

Gracious Kellie and grateful Stella, made for a brilliant discussion! Great work - glad you're both back on the same team, sorta! XX

I love both these woman for their different approaches. Stella explores, she talks and listens, she reaches common ground. Her work supporting families, inevitably means compromise and give and take. KJK is a campaigner, her message is, by necessity, clear and concise. There's room in this movement for all and i was pleased to see the discussion. ❤

Well I’m so glad to see two Brilliant Women back and support one another ❤️💪🏼❤

I have to say that the last thing I would want to hear from a therapist is something so dismissive and condescending as “well done, good for you” while I’m airing my life and problems to them, haha. No thank you, Stella.

Excellent talk. So glad KJK called Ben on his seriously obnoxious reaction to the whole mess, his condescending mocking of women concerned with a creepy AGP will not be forgotten any time soon.

My take is that KJK is clear that women and children need to be protected from dangerous men and that Stella doesn't really know what she thinks.

So clear, so articulate. Well done KJK ❤

When someone needs so many words to explain something so simple, I get suspicious. Time will tell whether that famous "misrepresentation" ends up being the truth about Genspect.

I just adore Kellie-Jay, she is consistently brilliant.

Stella = a lot of words and circular speak. Kellie-Jay = succinct and consistent.

I agree with Stella that it is important for everyone to know what an AGP is. That said, I think this should be done by highlighting and platforming more trans widows and their stories, instead of the men themselves.

Thanks so much for speaking for trans widows. Stella has it up on Genspect channel too, and I reminded her that we trans widows have what she said memorized, which was "But you got through it." This is what she said after hearing Stephanie, who has no real marriage anymore, honestly stated in that docu. Stella played dumb, but you were gracious KJK, and we trans widows so appreciate your advocacy. Genspect has not a scintilla of interest in the treatment of trans widows by mental health practitioners.

Great conversation and once again Kellie lead the way…such a great speaker, no messing around and straight to the point! 😊

Wow, I’m halfway through and the tone of understanding and holding to account are wonderful. Respect to both of you ladies. We’re imperfect and we’re all learning but the work you do is changing the world and saving lives. Thank you both for your passion!

Grownups talking. How bloody refreshing! Thank you both women for your work.

I’m Irish and I know people like Stella ,they all said this, I was told that , laughing nervously trying not to offend anyone including the hosts. We call them “cap wringers” playing neutral to both sides and being as effective as an ashtray on a motorcycle. Pick a side ffs!

Brillian conversation between two amazingly passionate women. Thank you to Benjamin Boyce for bringing Kellie-Jay and Stella together.

Thanks Ben for pulling these 2 together. I never fail to be impressed by Kellie Jay 's considering clarity and understanding. This conversation needed to happen and thank you Ben so much for being the man to do it. Xx

I really enjoyed that, great to see people actually discussing their differences and finding common ground. Stella was very receptive to KJ’s opinions it went really well. Stella seems nice and she’s definitely trying to make things safer.

Stella's "problem" is she is worried about hurting ANYONE'S feelings... KELLY KNOWS THE MISSION and STICKS TO IT... THAT is the difference... 🇺🇸

Great conversation from two wonderful women !

Kellie-Jay is right in pretty much Everything she says. There’s no confusion,no blurring lines and boundaries. People love Kellie purely because she CENTRES women and children . Stella is likeable, passionate in her work and supportive of others’ work. Honest and enthusiastic. I truly hope Stella addresses the concerns people have about her public support for AGPs. If Stella could succeed in her mission to bring awareness of the crude, dodgy and vile condition of AGPhilia to the masses that would be helpful as it’s seeping through society especially on the internet and aimed at our children, she would have to centre all the women,wives, children and mothers affected by AGPhilia in her approach.

59:15 I have never seen KJK come forth in anything but good faith. The fact that Stella thought that she would turn up any other way is telling.

Killed it ! You were the calm voice of reason all the way through 👏👏👏

Comparing a 'proud boy' attending an event (they were the men protecting the women from the agp men at said event) to platforming a proud agp and child abuser. Stella is easily manipulated and a poor judge of character There are thousands of stories of men violating women and children in the news - - Some of those offenders are AGPs - - none of them are the scapegoat ''proud boys''. The academic, unsurprisingly, is in over her head. She does not have bad intentions and may be well educated but she can't see giant red flags and like so many in academia - believe they can fix the perv. The pervert doing his sex fetish in front of kids is a ''good guy'' but that ''proud boy'' who she knows nothing of deserves her scorn?? So progressive.

Thank you both for all the work that you do.

Hats off. These two women rock.the.world. Keep shakin', gals, thank you. Respect. Benjamin, well.done, thanks.

Well done ladies and Benjamin for hosting. This is a conversation that needed to happen.

It's been a SILENCING campaign . By you, Stella. Silencing SAFEGUARDING CONCERNS. So much so you've fallen in the trap, set by agps, to humiliate you! Jfc

Thank you SO much, Kellie-Jay!❤

Can a mental illness ever be cured. I think not. I feel sorry for misdiagnosed kids. Autogynaphilia is predatory and dangerous. I am not a professional. What does this have to do with women’s rights to privacy and dignity and safeguarding. Go Keelue

Just started watching this. Stella also asked the wife if she was now a lesbian!

Thank you - an important and valuable conversation!

I love both these women ❤

Is the way to "highlight" pdf file - ia to allow pdf files to show up at conferences and promote their books? Tell me another one, Stella.

I understand Stella saying they can’t police who is at the event. But I heard that he was given a free ticket. And he was platformed by Genspect (not Stella) on X/Twitter. The fact that Genspect thought it appropriate to highlight him and another AGP instead of, say, Jennifer Lahl is the problem.

God damn Stella…get to the f**cking point before one of us dies!

"Let kellie speak"

One of the aims of the applied post-modernists/Maoists is the abolition of boundaries - one of the desired end-points of this being the acceptance and 'normalisation' of child sexual abuse by adults. Radically and inappropriately violating dress codes could be part of this.

Was this a conversation between Stella and Stella. She never took a breath !

Stella O’Malley should really learn to let other people speak. This show was mostly about her talking…and talking…and talking… She talked so much and yet said so little.

Thanks for posting here! No monetisation for BB here 🙌

I like them both. I’m so happy they can have a grown up conversation

O'malley could talk a glass eye to sleep

Ahhhh! What a fabulous discussion. I have so much time for all three of you great people! and Benjamin - thanks for letting the women just talk and explore this subject.

Thank you both for all you do. You are both genuine human beings. Let's all keep talking.

All the waffling from Stella feels hollow and like she is making excuses for the AGP at the meeting...

Such a good discussion. Love how we have so many amazing intelligent mature women leading on this issue, that can work together!

Jesus, take a breath.

….Loved Loved Loved this,… brilliant space and conversation…..KELLIE J KEEN , We are all so blessed to have you here, on this planet right now…. A MAZE ZING👏👏💪🌟💐❤️xx

KJK, as always, speaking truth. She doesn't even have to dominate the conversation. I sincerely hope that Stella and Genspect listen to her suggestions and aren't just posting this interview because they are grateful that KJK was respectful. An organization as big as Genspect really does need to always think critically and always make safeguarding their first priority.

Great conversation between three wonderful people. You are missing one detail. Motives for behaviour. People with a fetish take their anger and hatred out on a harmless object. AGPs do the same. Women don't just dress as women, we behave as women. In a confrontation we back off, appease, offer acceptance and try and keep a dignified peace. This was amply demonstrated by these two women. The AGP hates women and he gets off forcing women to accept him and his manipulative behaviour. It is a form of coercive control and violence against women. This interloper at the Denver Genspec conference got off on the fact that the meeting organisers backed off and did not kick him out. Every tweet of acceptance is another turn on. Debbie Hatton does the same to his wife and children. Of course he calls himself a man and says transitioning children is wrong. He gets off forcing people to accept him. I think we should add the category autotransphilia. Trans activists are also exerting coercive control over society and women in particular, and they are getting off on society accepting them. If they are blocked they react as all abusers do - they get violent. Understand the motives for AGP and trans activism and stop giving in.

I'm so glad you posted this video so I didn't have to watch it on BB's channel!!!!!

I thought you too were enemies. Thanks for working together

Kellie-Jay, you're just so fantastic :)

Brilliant KJK. Very well done.

Kellie-jay you did great! Stella tapped danced and was defensive and just won't accept how Genspect is perceived by others and the confusion that exists as to its mission! I'm not buying her story line about AGP Phil! It's concerning she just didn't say that absolutely no entry for AGP men! Instead she talked about their different outfits! Ben Bryce is creepy! I'm skeptical of his motives in this space!

I read he was wearing blue velvet and elbow length gloves.

So glad to hear this conversation. Two women I really admire thrashing out the issues with honesty and compassion.

So which woman hating AGP security guard let this interloper wearing a velvet frock in, knowing full well what he was? And the organisers were so passive and nice. " Ooh we might get sued".

I'm not in favor of anything replacing WPATH. We have to go back to accepting discomfort as a phase of life ... puberty for example... where a person suffers in order to grow.

Stella is ever so nice...but Kellie-Jay is right.

What a great example of civilised, honest debate between two people who may disagree on some contentious points.. So refreshing. Thank you..i think both of these women are great, and i thank them for their bravery..

Bravo to both contributors but particularly to Stella who responded so well to concerns and criticisms and showed how these matters can be discussed.

But Stella why distinguish sex and gender? Also why platform Michael Bailey who has printed that sex with a minor could be beneficial to both parties. In that same text Bailey says that the idea of age of consent should be rethought. Those are my problems. That and the idea that we need any organization to work out gender. Why? Especially if gender expression is absolutely a corruption of personality.

So would genspect have tweeted a known flasher? Who's written a book about flashing?

37:00 "A fetish is not the same as an addiction." It is in some cases if you're a sex addict it often includes fetishes and a so called trans doesn't wake up one morning and decides to be one without going through the steps first starting off doing things behind closed doors to going public then thinking they're actually are a member of the opposite sex to having surgery.Same with any addiction it starts off slowly and gradually moves to full blown. One difference is kids aren't being encouraged to be come alcoholics, drug or gambling addicts where as the trans agenda has been taken into schools and shown as a positive thing.You wouldn't have the local dealer going into schools saying if sniffing glue or smoking crack's your thing that's fine go ahead be yourself.

Really interesting conversation. Thanks to both of you. I think personally the point about cancer patients attending a conference about curing cancer was very near the point. I think the more apt comparison would be a conference about ending drug addiction providing a safe space to shoot up or pedophiles to be given the opportunity to attend wearing children's clothes. It is inappropriate for AGPs to be offered a 'safe space' to 'perform'. I think it's irresponsible and offensive. A man turning up wearing a latex gimp suit would be turned away. So should a man in a dress. We are not at a point in the destruction of patriarchy where a man wearing a dress can be seen as anything other than misogyny.

I highly enjoyed your obvious dislike of Boyce, there. Although at least, credit to him for letting you women speak, instead of inserting himself into the conversation. (Not that I really want to sing his praises very much, for such a BARE minimum of expected decency, though.) The way he's been actively mocking women's concerns, and this whole debate, dismissing safeguarding issues as: "the fashion police", and: "you women are just regressive and anti GNC"..? Has made me lose ALL the respect I at one point used to have for him. Total "mask off" moment! Same with James Lindsay, and all the other glorified anti-woke, anti-feminist, covert MRA f*cking dude-bros, too. I could not POSSIBLY be any less impressed, and I will NEVER see them the same way again. Not very impressed by Stella, or Genspect, either. But I'm still glad this conversation happened! I'm glad you let her speak. I'm glad you got to voice your concerns, (that I completely share), too. Although I do wish you'd gotten to speak MORE, there. Though I also understand why she feels attacked and defensive. It's a natural human reaction, in these situations. I don't wish her any harm. But I do SERIOUSLY hope she'll think about this stuff, long and hard! And yeah.. why the hell CANNOT there be a dress code??? When we know the VAST majority of men wear dresses because they're creepy f*cking AGPs, who get off on it?? I've got no issue with sincerely GNC gay men, who just think dresses are pretty! I wish that was all it was! But that is just simply NOT the world we live in! And speaking as someone who wears bloody SCRUBS to work, all day, every day..? They are definitely NOT my style, either! But do I complain..? NO! Because it comes with the job, and getting to ALWAYS express your full self, in every context..? Is just simply not appropriate! No one can stop you from wearing whatever you want in private! But absolutely, we can enforce dress codes, at least saying men don't get to wear clothing that is SPECIFICALLY made for female bodies, at these events! And if they care about women, at all..? They should understand WHY this bothers us! And WHY it's not appropriate! Because we're not f*cking fetish props, and we don't want to enable AGPs, or have them perv out all over us! (What could possibly be hotter to these freaking deviants than getting away with it, and even getting PRAISED for it, and incessantly validated, even amongst a bunch of supposed TERFs?) I don't really care about men's feelings on this. And for any sincere GNC gay guy, I'm sure you can handle not ALWAYS getting to wear what you want in public. Boo-f*cking-hoo! Just how EXTREMELY self-centered and narcissistic do you have to be, in order to actually flip out over that? Of course the creepy, exhibitionistic AGPs will flip out! Which is GREAT! Again, F*CK THEM!!! May they absolutely FUME, from that lack of narc supply and fetish fuel! It makes my pitch black heart VERY happy!!! But any sincere GNC gay guy, who's not a narcissist..? Should be able to understand. And should be able to make this NOT about just him. ..Also, you're great, and I agree with you on basically everything. Rock on.

I am so glad to see this conversation. Both KJK and Stella have good points to make. This calmversation is so much better than the usual virulent Twitter exchange. I have been following all three of you, Ben, KJK and Stella, for many years, from the outset. I discovered you, KJK, through Magdalen Berns (may she rest in peace). I started following Ben when he began putting out his videos on Evergreen College. I have watched Stella evolve from that know-nothing Alice in Genderland of the documentary mentioned in your conversation to the powerhouse she is now. I love and admire all three of you. As for the specific problem at hand here, namely the man in the outrageous blue velvet dress at the Genspect conference, I believe KJK's suggestion that Genspect institute a dress code for all future events is the way to go. I believe it could be stated as something like "no sexualised or sexualising clothing" with perhaps a list attached of what is considered so.

Why is she laughing so much? It's defensive and unprofessional.

Common enemy are abusive, boundary violating men

I don't think SO gives a hoot about trans widows or their families. And they should come clean with their opinion of Michael Bailey and the association with the "virtuous p8dofiles" website. Also, where does their funding come from. Who is paying them? Before anyone donates they should make it all transparent.

Phil was on his best behavior for Stella - She's so gullible.

Excellent sharing tonight

It's the way you do it, Stella. So defensive and aggressive.

Your pitch at the beginning set the tone.

Yes, we are all just a 'little' anxious about boundary maintenance!

Kellie reminds me of Margi Clarke a fighter too

This is going to be awesome ♥️♥️♥️

I'm glad Benjamin had the good sense to step back and simply let these two formidable women speak. I applaud both Stella and Kellie-Jay for their honest, amicable exchanges, and I hope their conversation will continue, offline as well as on. I want to underscore one thing, related to the question of incoherence Kellie-Jay pointed out. The issue isn't the dress, it's the public performance of a fetish by a known AGP, and I do urge Stella to step back and take Kellie-Jay's suggestion of requesting ordinary business/daytime attire seriously. The AGP in question was by no means wearing anything of the sort, and I am confident that he knew it and intended it. When it comes to daytime attire, It's easier for women, to be sure, as pants are accepted garb in the workplace for women, but that doesn't mean this shouldn't be done. As Kellie-Jay noted, a lot of what is going on right now that is so deleterious to the boundaries of women and girls and is contributing to the rush to medicalize children has to do with norm-smashing. Everyone who wants the kinds of changes both Kellie-Jay and Stella want in these areas really does need to support and contribute to reinstating rational norms. Look, the current norms may need to move a bit: for example, in schools that require uniforms, rigid boy and girl uniforms absolutely should be loosened up. But that does not mean that anyone should be permitted to parade a fetish at work, school, or in any public space.

Fun game; take a shot everytime Ms. O' Malley say " smear campagn"

Yep. We should give Stella another chance. Her work is too important for us to not do so. She blocked me on Twitter, defensively but I forgive her as she is desperate (as we all are) to bring down gender identity ideology.

KJK bringing truth and straght speaking as always.

Genspect might not be a therapeutic organisation but aren't they are an advocacy group for professionals and the public caught up in the gender debate. By platforming and promoting AGP they are normalising it. No way known would a conference where there were CSA victims in the audience have a pedophile just stroll in. I really hope Stella takes the criticism on board. If they want to hold an awareness raising event that should be more for professionals and he advertised as such with the warning that there may be discussion and/or individuals present that may be harmful to victims.

Well before 1:01:00 the facilitator should have stepped in to assist with summarization and clarifying questions, such as "what do you really want the other to understand that you think she's still not getting?" If you would have had a trained mediator there, they would have been instantly aware of where the two participants "missed" each other's meaning and also could have highlighted opportunities for shared goals and collaboration.

Great great discussion by two incredible women.

Kellie Jay superb in this discussion Not impressed with Stella here; seems defensive and disingenuous.

Yes Kellie-Jay, what are the TIMs doing there if not trying to draw attention and create discomfort?

Both of these women have admirable aims to their work. I've listened to all the Gender: A Wider Lens podcasts and it's clear to me that Stella is on the same page as the rest of us. There's been too much forensic examination of Genspect. They can't control who comes to their conference any more than KJK can control who turns up to her free speech events.

Stella is doing my head in...all that talking without taking a breather or allowing others to get a word in. Quite neurotic and self-centered and she is a therapist... god save us!

I do hope they can reconcile. We need BOTH of them working together.

Stellla sure knows how to waffle on about nothing just like a politician. what an awful awful therapist.