Benny Morris: An Apartheid State?, Judicial Overhaul, Gaza Occupation and other matters 

Who was listening to Benny before the Israel Palestine think ramped up last weekend

Shame the interviewers don’t seem to understand Dr Morris’s answer. Seems the distinction between the Occupied Territories and Israel are lost on these guys 😂

You asked him like the same question about apartheid 5 times

Weird watching this after the events over the weekend.

Late to the party but totally apartheid. As a south african who lived the final 20 years of apartheid. Apartheid is afrikaans and literally means "separation" or "separate hood". It does have to be about race. Apartheid in the way we lived it was about race. But it could as easily have been separating blondes from brunettes, and having different rules and laws for each of them. And that one will have more rights than the other. For instance we had separate beaches, bathrooms. Different education systems. As a Colored i had a slighter better education than my Black brothers and sisters but far below the White person. There was a distinct hierarchy. Hope that helps explain why a good majority of South Africans stand with Palestine.

They had no idea what was about to hit them in 2 days.

It’s notable that Mr Morris says of Palestinian citizens of Israel “they are treated fairly well.” He doesn’t say they enjoy equal rights. This is equivalent to saying “they should shut up and be happy that they have a better life than in the West Bank” which is in itself racist. And of course, the discrimination documented by Amnesty among other human rights organizations in Israel toward Palestinians is completely driven by race, not by nationality, since those Palestinians are citizens of Israel. Of course it is the same in the West Bank, despite what Mr Morris says.

Benny morris used to say the truth but he’s deathly afraid of the truth about the brutal disgusting occupation

benny had to say the same stuff 5 times

That was very enjoyable. You have to invite Benny Morris again now to hear his take in the war! Even better together with Noam Finkelstein or Aaron Mate

A comment that stood out was saying the west bank is an apartheid state might sound like you're criticizing Israel. Oh my goodness you shouldn't be critical of Israel. Mercy me, I better clutch my pearls.

"Israel is not and Apartheid state but the occupation is similar" - It was not a murder, just a homicide

If I am mistreated based on race or similarly mistreated based on nationality as you proclaim, what's the difference to me? I'm still being mistreated in a similar way or as South African black people that visited Gaza and the West Bank said: "It's worse than our Apartheid!" This is why people criticize you, you want to simultaneously appease your Zionist critics and your anti-Zionist critics but instead you have to pedantically pretend like one mistreatment is somehow less because it's not race-based. Many people do see Palestinians as Arabs and think of Arabs as a different race, so even with that argument your logic doesn't check out, Morris. You are the voice of the "enlightened centrist" in a matter of injustice, making you like the white liberal MLK and Malcolm X disdained for their appeasement of injustice by playing the centrist.

Great podcast. Thank you for these honest conversations.

The establishment of Israel was a very flawed affair, but it was never corrected. It should have been corrected immediately! This is not the way things work. If the foundation of a building is not resilient, then sooner or later it will collapse.... - Covering your ears, closing your eyes and singing lalala does not change the reality! If we want to solve the Palestine problem once and for all, Israel must shrink significantly and a state for the Palestinian Arabs must finally be created on at least 50% of the territory. Otherwise, the status of permanent crisis and war will remain. It is a highly pathological situation, this cannot be allowed to continue. It has highly destructive effects on the whole world, right from the beginning. The UN must finally intervene decisively: Stop the willful ignorance, stop the unnecessary suffering. This problem must be solved NOW.

Benny Morris is talking in circles burying the lead. It's obvious it's true. "Israel is not apartheid state, it's just practices it" GTFOOH The term “apartheid”, an Afrikaans word, derived from the French term “mettre à part”, literally translated to “separating, setting apart.” Apartheid is a policy that is founded on the idea of separating people based on racial or ethnic criteria.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1110">18:30</a> Benny Morris “The occupation began as a temporary measure … because Jordan started shooting “ Israel could have given the West Bank back to Jordan after the Six-Day War or allowed the Palestinian refugees to return. Refugees were allowed to apply to return but of the 120,000 only about 17,000 were allowed back. Morris does not say when the Israel government decided it was to be permanent. This, as we know from the Israeli cabinet minutes, was worked out in the months after the war. It was suggested, by the right wing, to annex the West Bank then but this was rejected by the national unity cabinet in favour of occupation and a perpetual peace process. At <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1475">24:35</a> Morris says “some people didn’t want to give up the West Bank” but it was a majority of the national unity cabinet. For a historian whose meticulous research has exploded myths of the 1948 war this is either sloppy or tendentious.

What about inviting Avi Shlaim and/or Ilan Pappe?

Okay it's about nationality rather than race. The main point is apartheid is apartheid regardless.

*It is by **_every definition_** an Apartheid state.* Jewish settlers and Palestinians live under different rules, privileges and protections under the law in the Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalem, based solely on ethnicity and/or religion. And there are specific laws governing the treatment of the groups differently. In one word: Apartheid.

Benny Morris is my hero. He can speak without emotion, factually from a historical standpoint. Everything is so heated. He is not, and therefore I can hear ALL that he has to say.

Quick note on the question of the Constitution…Israel’s Declaration of Independence basically acts as a de facto Constitution that enshrines equal rights for all….🇮🇱

"The International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid defines “the crime of apartheid” as “inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them” (Art. 2 of Apartheid Convention).

Great podcast. Helps to see the big picture of such a complicated conflict.

Actually very interesting interview. I disagree with everybody here on many many of their stances but it was at least a level and good faith discussion that was worth sitting in on.

Benny Morris is an extremely interesting historian and he is really worth listening to.

If you google for the etymology of the word "apartheid", you will find that it has nothing to do with race. It is an Afrikaans word, meaning simply "separateness". In South Africa, the separateness was based on race. In Israel, it is based on nationalism. That is all the difference. Hence, it was apartheid in South Africa until it was ended and it is apartheid in Israel now at least in the occupied territories. Morris is just ignorant of the etymology of the word, "apartheid", period.

So we don't want to call it occupation because there is no end date.

Try using the word Palestinian instead of "arab".

So it’s not an apartheid state. Just what it does in Gaza and West Bank is🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 So it’s an apartheid state

I recall apartheid translating to “apartness” when I looked the word up over two decades ago.

Really?! Does it really matter that it is an apartheid in one area but less than apartheid in another ?! So twisted

Semantic volleyball. If it walks like a duck... It's brutal colonialism. It's a problem. This is a worthless discussion. How about call it Apartheid light? Apartheid plus?

Now invite Ilan Pappe. He was in California just a few weeks ago, you could have flown him to New York and have him in person.

This Noam loves being a victim. You can see a sample of it around 21 minutes.

Just a completely idiotic interviewer. Begins with "this guy is the highest authority on this subject" and then as soon as he says something you disagree with, you're like "Hm, how can you say that?" Uh, perhaps because he's an authority on the subject.

Benny Morris is good, when i hear him talk about the IS / PAL problem, i get the feeling i'm getting a reasonably balanced summary of the history of the conflict, albeit it seem through a somewhat pro-Israeli lens.

Apartheid stemming from ethno nationalism is good actually thinks the host 😂. I like how he doesn’t understand Beni Morris coz this claim was made in Righteous Victims 😂

Unless Israel annexed the WB, how can it be an apartheid? It cannot be both occupied/disputed terrorities and an apartheid at the same time. Where in history does an occupying power extend citizenship rights to an occupied people?

Damn, this interviewer doesn't understand English, does he? Morris repeated himself at least three times

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="530">8:50</a> Semantics. This historian keeps using the term "Arab", so of course the apartheid is based on race. In fact, many South Africans veterans will openly tell you the Israeli system in West Bank and Gaza is even worse. I'm giving up on this interview and I suggest you do too.

I really like and appreciate Coleman's input.

Critical issue. In 1967, all of Israel's neighbors armed to destroy Israel. Israel waged a pre-emptive war and, in six days, totally demolished all if them. They kept certain territories they conquered, the West Bank one of them. Israel tried to make peace but was constantly attacked by Arabs non-stop. Jews there had to establish barriers to stop attacks, even by simple housewives with knives. In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza to allow it to be a free nation. Instead, Hamas took over and spent billions on turning it into a total war machine with the total intent of destroying Israel. Israel has learned a bitter lesson. They must never allow Gaza or the West Bank to ever be free states again.

Benny Moriss is a true historian unlike the biased so-called historian Ilan Pappe

if multiple human rights organizations determine that you reach the threshold for apartheid, you probably are an apartheid state. Did anyone read the 280 page report by Amnesty International?

Thank you for having Benny Morris on. We should all read his books.

He should really interview Prof Ilan Pappé. He's kind of the left-wing Israeli antidote and is considered also a seminal 'New Historians' who sees the same evidence from a different lens.

I just read that Jordan doesn't want the West Bank

If israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is apartheid, the state of israel is apartheid, is that so difficult to see ?

Fantastic episode. Subscribed. I’ve become a big fan of Benny Morris and have his books. However, I must strongly disagree with the use of the word “apartheid for a couple different reasons: 1) I don’t think the meaning of Apartheid is changing, nor should it. It’s a rather careless use of the word as applied to Israel-and an unfair word choice. If we widen it from its core meaning re ethnic discrimination, then it misconstrues what’s really happening in Israel. We are not at all like South Africa. 2) The word is cheerfully weaponized by Israel’s detractors, and antisemites paint the inaccurate picture of Jewish supremicism, and other vilifications like “they think they’re the chosen people, and our country’s (the US, for example) tax dollars actively support it. Words are incredibly important and their sloppy use has direct consequences. We in the diaspora are on the receiving end of those consequences, and Israelis have no idea how much damage they cause to both Israel and the diaspora. I believe the proper word is “occupation,” which refers to a national conflict re the suppression of certain freedoms by an occupying power. A couple racist ministers doesn’t make it occupation, just as a far right wing member of Congress doesn’t make the United States an apartheid state. Police departments discriminating against minorities isn’t apartheid, either. There is no official Israeli policy or doctrine to racially discriminate. However, yes, in the territories, people live under the conditions of occupation (in areas B and H2 especially) However, it could even be argued that the occupation as a description has some gray areas. To begin with, Israel has essentially been at war with the Palestinians for 75 years. 75% of Palestinians were found to support Hamas in an October poll by Birzeit University. In a state of low intensity war, conditions make for occupation. Redeploying would present a massive security risk to Israel, making it vulnerable to being bisected and flanked in a war- vulnerable on four fronts (including the 9 mile foank). Four from the West Bank, and another two in Gaza. So occupation is a necessary evil until leaders can figure out a way to ensure Israel’s security dilemma. It hasn’t happened in 75 years, and with 90% of Palestinians responding to the poll that co-existence is impossible, the conflict may continue for another 75 years. Second, Palestinians in, say, East Jerusalem can theoretically apply for Israeli citizenship as far as I know-something that wouldn’t be an option in either an occupation or an apartheid state. How easy it is to obtain is another matter that I’m in no position to answer.

Propaganda prize? Facts based analysis isn't propaganda. Bibi saying Amalek describes exactly what Israel wants to do.

You got my sub for this interview. Excellent questions!

Benny Morris is very balanced. Thank you.

Wow. This was Oct 5th. Crazy.

A lot of times the focus on apartheid is placed on East Jerusalem, but interestingly the majority of Palestinians living there would prefer to have Israeli citizenship than Palestinians under a hypothetical two state solution. It’s really hard to imagine that people would choose to live in a supposed apartheid state, rather than have their own. In essence, this poll says the majority of Palestinians seem to recognize that it isn’t apartheid, but occupation in the absence of a peace plan that is the problem.

Judicial overhaul would have turned Israel into a minority Jewish theocracy

I love how they talk about illegally occupied land like their “giving 🇵🇸 something”

Thank you for this conversation. When was this recorded btw? Before or after October 7?

Maybe the term Jim Crow would fit better?

Why don’t you obsess on the meaning of terrorism. Who invested it. Who has committed it for a hundred years. And who leads in it today?

If you interview a historian, why not bootstrap the conversation with his view of the roots of this conflict, starting somewhere at the end of the 19th century so that your audience understands his lense through which he does his analysis. So one could then watch another historian and check the differences and maybe you could even cross-check the views in the future interviews. Also, please interview Ilan Pappe.

While Israel recognizes marriages from abroad. A Jew and a Muslim cannot get married in Israel. People say it's because Israel doesn't have civil marriage, but it's the government which controls which religious authorities are allowed to perform marriages.

Israel offered a full Palestine State on numerous times. In 2000 Arafat and Hamas responded to an offer of statehood with suicide bombers in Israel. Security is not apartheid if the "controlled" population rejects its own independance?

Super interesting to listen to post 10/7. Your comment at 1<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="220">03:40</a> is ominous. Would love to hear his take now pursuant to the recent tragic events.

Best comedy show I've seen in a while

Noam brought Morris on to comfort his conscience as an Israel loving liberal but Morris can't help slapping Noam with facts. What a massive amount of cognitive dissonance Noam must suffer from 😅

The fact that any person living ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, can automatically achieve citizenship BASED SOLELY ON THEIR ANSCESTORY. Very similar to 1930s Germany more than South Africa at its worst…

Benny Morris makes sense. I don’t think the host got what he said even though he clearly said what he said 5 times. Morris refused to serve in the Israeli reserves about 30 years ago when he was supposed to serve in the West Bank. He makes a clear distinction between Israel proper and the West Bank

Much of what’s wrong with this video is when, the host says “my people”, when talking about Israel, in America.

😅 I admire how y'all split hairs with regards to the way Israel treats the Palestinians, compare to others nations and their oppression. Yours is worse than anything in Modern history. What a shame. History won't be kind to you all

yeah it’s an interesting question whether it’s an occupation or not, isn’t it? most occupations don’t go on this long, and since it has gone on for 57 years, with jewish settlers from across the world building houses and communities under the protection of Israeli military, it doesn’t seem like they have any intention of ending the occupation. so after a while you have to ask, is this still an occupation? or is it now just a de facto annexation? and if it is to be part of Israel in the future, that’s when no one will be able to deny that it’s an apartheid state, unless Israel changes course and offers citizenship and equal rights to all people. but then it wouldn’t be a jewish supermajority anymore. so that is the dilemma. they want the land, but they don’t want the people. they want a democracy, but only for themselves.

I remem er that Beguin wanted to return Gaza to Egypt but Egypr didn't accept

Wow, compare this to the interview of Rashid Khalidi. DOUBLE STANDARDS. You bring on Israeli voices and treat them as proper guests, as you should. Than for the Palestinian guests....

Too much comparisons to America, which is silly

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2220">37:00</a> on never getting to the constitution. _JC

Firstly, the hosts in this program are the most intelligent and independently thinking hosts I've heard from the US so far. Kudos! I would like to point out a fallacy regarding this interview, though, and I think in general with so many interviews on political subjects: the fact that someone is knowledgeable or successful in a particular field (in Benny's case, history) doesn't make them successful at making security decisions, or public policy decisions, or legal decisions. In that respect, Benny is just another guy, and his opinion is no more important than the opinion of any other intelligent, informed Israeli. So I posit that the hosts, in this instance, have a better understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis than Benny Morris does. This might also explain why the vast majority of Jewish Israelis (approx. 75% of the Israeli population) disagree with him, and why Haaretz is such a despised newspaper here in Israel. PS Apropos "Elites", did you hear how Benny refers to the "better educated" people who oppose the reform, and the disdain he shows for those who support it? Kind of like how Harvard grads are "better educated"...

FYI: The URL at the top of the description is broken.

Not the most famous , famous along with Avi Shlaim and Ilon Pappe.

This is so biased. Israel is a European settler-colonial project. And it is racist. And it’s fascist. And to see an African American philosophise why Palestinians do not deserve justice like South Africans is so sad.

Add about a minute 28 I I start thinking anytime I've heard anymore is talk about this in this way where if the land had been split pretty evenly like Jews on the west and and Arabs on the East that is the West Bank essentially as all Arab probably more than the West Bank but maybe not including Jerusalem or splitting Jerusalem East and West. I think that I've heard in the past that the jordanians and the Egyptians did not want that many Palestinians and that that was one of the reasons why Gaza remained part of Israel and why the West Bank remained part of Israel in a sense and according to international law Israel could not annex those two pieces of land and Israel also didn't want that many Palestinians in a Jewish Democratic State because it wouldn't be majority Jewish anymore. I mean as far as I know from the past not only Benny Morris but other people have said and I've read that Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt and Egypt refused it. Also the West Bank the well they tried not to attack it and because they won they acquired it it's all seemingly very passive. yeah it's like the Palestinians always seem to fall through the cracks you know with the initial land deals and whatnot that happened before 48 it seems like the Palestinians were you know a mixture of almost leaderless and when they were with a leader they chose the wrong side (the Nazis) but you know the League of Nations the UN and England and France seem to almost completely disregard the Palestinians. I think that all of the Arabs would fall in line with the hashemites and except for in Jordan they did not. It's very funny there's the sense of pan-arabism when they tried to use you know like a family like the hashemites that were considered to be all related to the family of Muhammad which could have helped with this whole Pan-arab idea but it largely failed. I think part of the reason why it failed so badly with the Palestinians was because they considered themselves as Syrian Palestinian they didn't consider themselves as you know anything close to the hashemite idea and they also were sick and tired of the Ottomans and they didn't want to be ruled over by Ottomans or Jews or hashemites. The other reason I think that did it largely failed in the region is also that you know they tried to kind of replace the Ottomans with the hashemites. Even though nationalism was a transplanted European idea I think that it gave different regional groups means of self-identification after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. I think so if they had tried to lie the Palestinians with Faisal in Syria then it might have worked better instead of trying to align the Palestinians with Jordan. I also think that if the mufti of Jerusalem had not been so opposed to the Jewish immigration to the degree to go to the Nazis instead of working things out with the British and the syrians I think this whole situation would have been different. I think it's a real tragedy that King Fisal, I think it was in Syria got assassinated. I don't know these are just things I'm getting between the lines of all the stuff I've read and seen and heard specially from Benny Morris but not exclusively for sure it's just kind of a synthesis of ideas that I've gotten I'm trying to understand the overall conflict between Israel and the Levantine Arabs.

It’s funny how everyone is blaming settlements except the Palestinians who live in those areas and work for them. Benny starts with saying Arabs want all of Palestine but then turns around to blame settlers. Just confused about how Morris views this. Important to know in order to move forward somehow

As Dominique de Villepin said: of course you can move out 500T settlers from the WestBank, you have to, like we did with 1 miljoen France people from Algeria

Everything Morris says ends up making Israel a monster racist state even though he doesnt want to.😅

Coleman Hughes is wonderful to add to your mix. He is thoughtful. He is measured. He is not attacking. He seeks to understand without judgement… that doesn’t mean is that he is not judgemental… He surely has his opinion, but he does not seek “gotcha” moments. I learn when I listen to him… I cringe when I listen to the other’s attacking. Afterall, isn’t the purpose to seek an understanding???

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="64">1:04</a>:00 Was this a miscommunication where Colman's question was about the more distant future based on the growing numbers of the ultra orthodox and Benny Morris's answer was about the near future based on the Judicial overhaul?

interesting at <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1260">21:00</a> or so the host talks about the glee in which the Palestinians celebrate the terrorist attacks, and this was posted 2 days BEFORE 10/7, which was the epitome of that glee, including by the terrorists themselves. Unreal.

Morris doesn't like you less Noam he just agrees with Coleman more often. Maybe check what you say and how you say it rather than taking disagreements personally.

There IS Apartheid in Israel proper. The 20% Arabs do not live under the same laws as the Jews. They have Israeli citizenship (ezrahut), which gives them the right to elect a representative to the Knesset, but they are assigned an inferior Nationality (leum) classification, which has over 30 laws that discriminate against them, including restricted "right of return", and limited access to land and public amenities.

USA have a big problem, when shall US pay back a lot of thing to the lakota and dakota people and so on. I listen to Russel Means, John Trudell and Oren Lyons on RU-vid and have learn from their situation.

Benny Morris is very clear: West Bank military government has a kind of apartheid system, Israel does not, therefore ISRAEL is not an apartheid state, but the West Bank has aspects of it. West Bank government this, Israel proper this. Two different places with two different systems. How do the podcasters not understand this? They seem to be baffled constantly like Israel can only be one or the other, like Israel is one entity and not many with different rules based on Israel proper, Area A, Area B or Area C (and Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, etc.) I find this especially embarrassing considering that the United States also had two systems in place: The Southern segregationist systems and the rest of the country. New York wasn't Mississippi, Harlem wasn't Montgomery, Alabama. The United States was not an apartheid segregationist government, all federal amendments and systems were openly saying that you cannot discriminate based on race. So, dear podcasters: Was the US an apartheid state or was it a completely equal democratic state? Can only be one or the other, or do you see why this is stupid? Also, I find it really short-sighted how little these Americans know about the peace process. They seem to think that left-wingers will always be for unconditional peace and that everyone who criticizes the Palestinians will be a right-winger. Morris knows what he's talking about, he isn't naive. The Israelis gave a lot to the Palestinians as a compromise, and the Palestinian factions saw that as a weakness to exploit and to fight on until the whole "liberation/decolonisation of Palestine", meaning 7th October events...

Benny is no Rambam.

this interview didn't age well

What does Dr Morris say about 13 October 2023 and the Gaza situation

Pronunciation is apar-tide.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="3360">56:00</a> to the victor goes the spoils

They’re still in recovery mode after Norman’s episode

"putin is acting like hitlar" well, netenyahu is acting worse...... how about we be concerned more about that ?

Thanks for this!

Noam saying “I don’t want to be an apologist for immorality” made me die laughing, on some level he knows subconsciously his opinions are morally horrific

There was no Israel in 1930 what are you talking about?