I also find that incredible. I sincerely hope Suede can one day call Butler to produce one of their albums, since they're in such a great streak with "The Blue Hour" and "Autofiction", and Bernard is doing so well as a producer, even being nominated for a Mercury Prize last year for his work with Jessie Buckley. I think it would be a match made in heaven, and Bernard could finally produce a Suede album, like he wanted to in 1994, as well as contribute with some guitars alongside Richard and Neil... That would be so great to see. I hope it happens one day.
@@henrysilence Bernard & the band are pretty friendly nowadays, even so far as his co-signing Suede's new tour merch. My quiet hope is that - one day - Suede tours as a band double bill featuring Butler AND Oakes.
@@lizahadiz8835 Who knows, maybe one day. But, yes, at Suede's merch table during their quick US tour, they were selling debut & _DMS_ vinyl lps signed by Bernard!
He's right, there's definitely something up with the overall production of that album. The first album is near perfect. Would love to hear Bernard's original intention with all the extra guitars left in as well 😊
Well everyone loves Dog man star and it remains one of suedes favourite albums. Ed Bueller’s work with suede is great I’d say it was coming up that had a more dodgey production.
Coming Up mainly suffers from its production being dated. I don't know if I can particularly fault their producer for doing what most everybody was doing with that type of music in the 90s though
I disagree, Coming Up sounds perfect in all its trebly excitable sound. The album that suffers to me is definitely the debut Suede. So thin sounding and all that phasing effects added. The B-sides from those same sessions sound so much better mixed. For some reason they went with the thin 'retro' sound which went too far and just sounds compromised to me.
Those first three albums. "Suede" was a butcher's knife slashing into what was pop music at the time. DMS the masterpiece of the 90's regardless the debate over it's production/mix and then the ability to do a 180 and create one of the greatest pop albums ever with "Coming Up" is nothing short of incredible. Suede found a gem in Richard Oakes, very underrated. But Bernard is the guitarist of the 90's. Playing was other wordly and his vision of what he wanted for Suede's sound cannot be overrated for me, as well as Brett's lyrics. I'm sure he could be a cnt at the time but he was young and knew how good he was. When he auditioned for the other members he asked them how old they were and told them they "better get moving then" as they were all 3 to 4 years older. Would "dog man star" have been even better with Bernard at the helm? Idk but I'd pay dearly to hear what he'd have done with it.
Id love to hear Bernards mix of the album. Im sure it would have been great. Saying that I think the one that was released was well produced and he is wrong about that
If you listen to the demos of The Wild Ones and The 2 of Us that were released in 2011, you can't help but agree with Bernard. The full unedited version of The Wild Ones is a superb sprawling beast that the single can't match. The 2 of Us also lost something particularly special when it went from demo to final version. There was tonnes of interesting stuff on the demo that just got ditched. I've never liked the final version of that song and always felt that it was very flat.
Exactly my thoughts about 2 of us. The demo is MUCH better, really. It has that rich, haunting sound while the studio version feels so numb. Another example is Losing Myself aka New Generation - the demo is very unique with kind of ethereal/nostalgic quality while album version is just a regular rock song. Banana Youth aka The Power is literally a different song but that's because Bernard wasn't even there at the time of recording. Also while the songs on the album sound very much alike in their vibe, the demos are more versatile. I wish they would let Bernard produce it :(
Ed Buller was just hopelessly out of his depth with the soundscapes Bernard was creating, they were way beyond his capabilities and he was too stubborn or arrogant to admit it and step aside for a producer who did have the appropriate skill level.
@MrMarketingguy Brett had said the production on the album is bad and that they should gave gotten someone else to do it. Ed Buller has admitted he was out of his depth and that his work on some tracks (notebly New Generation) is so poor that even he can't bear to listen to it. But yeah it wad that pesky Bernards fault for pointing all this out.
I love Suede but I think this clip probably does show that Butler can be hard to work with. He fell out with Mcalmont as well eventually. Dog Man Star sounds nowhere near as bad as he thinks. He was still young and brash at this time.
Apart from the part where Brett has said multiple times since that Bernard was correct and the mix of the album is bad and ended up firing Buller himself you mean? Bernard was going through a really difficult time, he was grieving and deeply depressed. Buller has described him as having a breakdown during the recording and at times being catatonic. Some of what has been described sounds like a form of psychosis which can happen when a person is pushed beyond the limit of what their mind can cope with. So no I don't imagine it was easy working with someone going through all that. I also don't imagine it is easy going through all that while being ostracised, gaslit and shown no compassion by the people around you who you thought were your friends. It was a terrible situation for everyone involved. But Bernard was correct, Brett knew he was correct but sided with Buller to make a point. Something he now says he regrets terribly.
@@sunny70299 I did say 'can be' hard to work with that is all. It wasn't meant to be a strong criticism. From what I heard the band did ostracise him a bit but it also sounds like he distanced himself from them too. Two to tango as they say. It was most unfortunate but then again perhaps Anderson & Butler had run its course. You can sort of tell how fiery the relationship was through the songs.
@incredibleXMan I mean he distanced himself because they went on tour days after his dad's funeral and his bandmates weren't willing to curtail their partying. I wouldn't have been in any state to be around that after my dad passed either. That's not a two to tango situation. Bernard was grieving and his band mates showed him no sensitivity. Again they admit to this and have expressed regret. Brett has also said he pulled away from Bernard because he had unresolved grief from losing his mum (also to cancer) a few years previous and seeing Bernard grieving was brining up feelings he didn't want to confront. Bernard *wanted* to communicate with Brett and has been clear on that, Brett was avoiding him and says he regrets not being a better friend to Bernard.
I love DMS as it was released. I also love the full ‘Butler’ versions and demos as heard on the deluxe remastered releases. They act as companion pieces, a sneaky peak into a parallel world had Bernard been a little more easy going in personality and had never left the band. The band had something special, then, in the early/mid nineties. A darkness, an optimistic bleakness. Lyrically, guitars… it was a perfect storm that was always going to pass.
@@PoodlestarGenericaI didn't know anyone else that was really into it at the time. That made it more personal. To me, the production reflects the mood of the album. Kind of grimy and a bit seedy. I hope he feels better with it now because to me it was a very special piece of work.
Looking back this fall out wrecked all their music careers. They would argue it didn't but it was clear that when they worked together they were more creative than they were separately. Shame.
Suede continued to make great albums with Richard Oakes. He is a better guitarist than Butler, although I think Butler had a strong songwriting influence.
wasn't Coming Up their biggest album? beyond that I'd say that one, Bloodsports & Autofiction easily join the first two as their top 5 albums and as somebody else said in here, Oakes is such a great guitarist in his own right
Im really no expert on sound and maybe part of the reason I like DMS so much is Ive listened to it lots but I very much like the way it sounds and Im also not sure it needs more guitar tracks. I would love to get to hear the guitars they took out.
I think the biggest problems with the sound is the fact that it sounds too muddy at times, demo-esque, and doesn't sound very clear, too filled with reverb even. Especially if you compare it to "Coming Up" or the debut album. And as far as the extra guitar tracks, i think he's talking about the guitar tracks that existed on the extended versions of songs, like "The Wild Ones" and "The Asphalt World" before he left the studio. It was all shortened, so it must have been weird for him to compose a seven minute song, and then hear it on an album with only 4 minutes of it in it. You can hear some of it in these versions: The Wild Ones: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uW9G0Xc1XiY.html The Asphalt World: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pzT34lbs5Os.html
@@henrysilence Well yeah now that you say it could definitely had been made to sound a lot clearer. Thanks a lot for the reply. Ill listen to these links later today.
@@henrysilence I think that must be mainly what he's referring to as well. To me it's nowhere near as much an issue as the debut album where the mix is terrible at times and very demo-esque. Dog Man Star overall sounds amazing to me so I'm surprised it's the one that always catches flack. New Generation especially sounds amazing and we can only imagine what Bernard or Ed Buller are on about when they say it was ruined in the mix.
Sounds like Bernard wanted all the songs to sound like Stay Together with its never ending layers of codas at the end (on the long version). Whats-his-name from Mitchell and Webb nominated Metal Mickey on Desert Island discs yesterday (11/03/2023), but what really struck me was just how rustic and raw it sounded. The first album had better songs, better guitar parts; but the second album certainly sounds better produced, much cleaner. I thought Ashpalt World was ultimately what it was that broke up the band, although I loved it at the time. But I can see how the slightly older Bret Anderson would've thought it self-indulgent.
As much as I think most of Britpop is an unabashed pile of shit, the first Suede album is just a classic. Can stand head to head with all the usual suspects (Smiths, Clash, Beatles, etc.)
I never understood the line that Dog Man Star was badly produced which even Ed Buller and Brett now agree with. To me it has always sounded amazing. We can only imagine what they heard in the studio to think the final version of DMS sounds bad. It's really the debut album that sounds so thin and compromised to me. I also wish the complete versions of Wild Ones and Asphalt World had been released and keep the edited Wild Ones as a single instead, it would have solved so much bitterness and not robbed us of Bernard's incredible music!
I love BB style of playing but I am very surprised that he does not like the sound of DMS. I think it sounds great and Ed with Bob Ludwig made a great job out of it. I cannot really say anything bad about the sound whereas I can say many bad things about the sound of the records from 4th Suede album onwards...especially Night Thoughts - this sounds terrible. So again, very surprised. I agree with BB though that a lot of great guitar layers and intros were abandoned on the way...
I played Dog Man Star the other day & it sounds very good. The 1st album very good also. Comming up production wise was a little bit ott but great songs . Head Music is OK, some great songs but do not like production ( may be more the mastering too loud)
I always thought, and am sure I read in an old NME interview, that Bernard left the band because they were on a US tour and his father was very ill back in the UK or Ireland, or wherever he lived, and then he died, and he then had to go back on the tour and his mind wasn't there, he was grieving, and he felt the band weren't very empathetic towards him, so the tension between Bernard and Brett Anderson (and the band) grew and grew until it exploded.
DMS sounds fine to me. The singles from it are great. It has possibly my favourite Suede album track ‘Heroine’ but ultimately, (bizarrely) I think the two albums either side of it are better as a whole.
Suade is a weird band in the sense that Suade fans - love the first album and DMS, but the masses loved Coming Up as arguably that had a lot of radio friendly hits on it. Still, to this day, when you ask someone who isn't into Suade to "name a Suade song", they will say Trash, which in the late nineties was all over the Radio and TV. I'd argue BB did his best work when he wrote Yes for David McAlmont - he could never have written a song like that in Suade.
I can understand him. His choice to be sincere and authentic in his music is something i do appreciate, and it has been a very brave choice because Suede at that time were in the middle of the storm of the second record, in order to try to keep safe the success of the first , and it probably was his desire to not be into this. But if you listen to Dog Man Star b sides and early demos and extended versions of Asphalt World or Stay Together (not included ), you can feel how different they sounded from the album. Bernard was literally obsessed by making a very pretentious masterpiece ...but in the end the production cut off much of the beauty of it in order to "be more commercial". The sound looks like encapsulated in an hotel room, very claustrophobic. It is their masterpiece to me, but probably it could have sounded much better. Anyway Suede became a totally different band after he was gone away from them. Anyway there was a lot of tension between him and Brett, you can feel it watching their concerts of 94 ...i was happy when they have reunited like The Tears in 2005
‘Dog Man Star’ will always be Suede’s best album, it’s as good as Dark Side of the Moon, although waay muddier and murky sounding, but doesn’t that just fit the mood of the whole piece.
Bernard in 1995 is just plain wrong. Dog Man Star is a wonderful record that bucked against the cheerfulness emerging in British pop music. Big sounding with real ambition. The music has real depth of imagination and feeling. Buller did a good job.
I kind of agree. Dog Man Star as we know it is the product of at least three different points of view. Bernard's deep and masterful instrumentals, Brett's exquisite vocal melodies, performances and lyrics, and Buller's sparse, almost below average sound quality production, his input being the most divise. Still, Dog Man Star wouldn't be the same without him, or without Matt and Simon, for that matter. I grew to really like the production, and these days I think of it as a very fitting work with what Bernard and Brett did. The album was always supposed to be about decay, depression, loneliness and anger. Buller's reverb laden production compliments well Bernard's depressive instrumentals and Brett's dark lyrics and melodies.
@@henrysilence I got it straight away back in 1994. There was a lot of space in the sound that was heavily pregnant with something quite strong. Butler in 1995 was still angry about how things worked out and I suspect he cringes looking back. He was essentially crapping on his own achievement.
@@henrysilence I remember reading an interview with Bernard shortly after the split and his bemoaning Buller's insistence on using all that reverb on DMS and I absolutely agree. I loved DMS when it came out and still do, it's a masterpiece, but would love to see what Bernard's production/mix would have sounded like. I picture it sounding more bare, brittle. I have no doubt that Bernard was sort of a 'unt back then but he was young and brash and even so he's still the best guitarist of the 90's even though he is a bit too fond of the Bigsby on that awesome 355 of his. And full disclosure I've never liked much reverb as an effect in general nor have I ever bought/used a reverb pedal. But too each his own.
Bernard Butler vs Brett Anderson was like Brian Eno vs Bryan Ferry all over again; two classic albums in less than a year, but their egos were too big to keep working together.
Even though Richard is great, it was a bad decision to fire Bernard. Especially so as his father had died, this was particularly insensitive of Brett etc. leaving his guitars outside the studio isn't very nice. DMS is unlistenable, even though many of the tracks are interesting, there is no brightness or lustre to the songs...overall it sounds murky and lacks something.It is clear Brett & Bernard were an exceptionally creative songwriting force, evident in The Tears. However, it is important to remember Bernard owed Brett nothing after he was fired.
@mojopin1997 Both Brett and the producer himself now admit Bernard was right and that the album *was* badly produced. Ed Buler says he was out of his depth on this album.
@Suzy Had he lived a little longer, Mick Ronson would've been the ideal producer for DMS. Moz's _Your Arsenal_ is one of the best produced Rock albums ever made. Ronno understood guitars, strings, & complex layering.
Ok, in truth here is what happened. Butler had a huge ego and a vision and was uncompromising in his vision. The record doesn't sound bad at all. As any true fan knows if Butler was honest with himself he was in a self destruction period. He was envious of the attention Anderson was getting. He was grieving over his dad. He was far more comfortable in the studio and didn't want anyone else telling him how o do things - his ego was out of check and he wanted to produce the album but the record company would not let him. The only song on DMS that is poorly produced is New Generation, but tbh it's probably more in the final mix. Butler needed to ay off the cocaine as a coping mechanism for grieving that was the real problem here. As he says now... he's full of apologies now, but at the time he did not give a sh!t as he had a vision and if anyone got in the way he went after them and Buller and Simon were the last straw.
This would be my guess too. Such a shame because everything they wrote was so good. I have to admit, I think the first album is poorly produced and DMS poorly mixed. I met Ed Buller once and he was incredibly pleasant, but he certainly rubbed BB the wrong way.
I think this is also probably true. New Generation though is far from badly produced and I have no idea why it's the one that always gets called out. It sounds powerful, dreamlike and classic to me. Asphalt World is the one I think sounds a bit muddy especially compared to the complete rough mix released in 2011.
While some of the production on Dog Man Star is a bit OTT or 'overstated' such as New Generation and The Asphalt Word, it stands out as their best album IMO. I absolutely love it. I get the impression Butler was going through a difficult time and behaving like a brat as a consequence. Of course, Anderson was also up his own arse a bit at the time, but what a great album. Must have been difficult seeing the band being replacing him with a better guitarist, albeit not as good a songwriter as Butler.
Richard in time may have developed into a (technically) better guitarist but he wasn't at this point and playing isn't all about flawless technique. Even Brett called Richards playing sterile. There is a reason Bernard was such a big influence on his contempories (James Dean Bradfield and Noel Gallagher to name 2) and has the more lasting legacy.
You can't give one band member that much control over album production. I respect Bernard but clearly he was going way too far with his demands. I really think he was looking for a way out of the band, and this was it.
Yes you can. Bernard wrote all the songs (except vocal melodies and lyrics) and was the one responsible for the sound of the music so him producing an album would be natural. Also Jimmy Page produced Led Zeppelin albums and they were fine.
You can if that band member is the composer. Bernard correctly pointing out that the producer was not upto the job and asking for someone else to mix it is not going too far with "demands" at all. Remember Brett now says Bernard was correct and agrees Buller did a poor job. As for your last claim I'll quote Bernard when asked how it felt when Brett chose to side with the producer "It was devastating. There was no part of me that wanted to leave."
Buller did such a poor job...that they have used him on nearly everthing they've done since. If B wants to create "soundscapes", he can do it solo, rather than make every song a 10+ epic. No wonder Coming Up did so well