Bernardo Kastrup VS Avi Loeb: Aliens & Reality 

Bernardo should have his own podcast and interview people he loves.

I live in Brazil and really like Bernardo's work. I am a psychiatrist and Junguian analyst. In my opinion, this video was a polite conversation but there was just no debate because Avi was not capable of delving inwardly into his subjectivity. As Carl Jung said: “One who looks outside, dreams. One who looks inside, awakens”.

Loeb is so convinced that he is right that he has lost the curiosity that he laments is missing from science. Blinders and biases…

"How do you test for consciousness?" asks Avi. I am shouting at the screen. QUALIA!! QUALIA!! Ask Chat GPT what it is LIKE to be CONSCIOUS! Ask it to recall qualia memories of being assembled, of its sense of triumph as it answered its first questions correctly! Ask it how it feels to be encased in a steel box! Ask it how it imagines its fellow AI's! I stand with Bernardo and agree with Sir Roger Penrose who says 'consciousness is not computation'. How did I get to that belief? Intuition. A product of consciousness, NOT of computation.

I found the conversation shallow & slightly boring. ( dont hammer me). The topic of conscoiousness (reality ) was bearly discussed. I thought Avi wasnt particualrly engaging in Bernados point of view & following his trail of thought, though Bernado did just that.

AVI LOEB FIERCELY CONFUSES INTELLIGENCE WITH CONSCIENCE, The guy doesn't care about Aristotle, Plato, Jung for shit, he wants the latest iPhones and play poker with friendly aliens, that's enough for him, poor man....

Brilliant! I always wanted to see both Bernardo and Avi in a dialogue, and the result did not disappoint. Avi has the rare and amazing talent to articulate and communicate complex subject matter in an understandable format. What a treat for anyone curious about physics and philosophy.

I appreciate Avi’s work, but Bernardo is just on another level.

couldn't agree more that Avi eminates optimism..what a great person and physicist, much respect and admiration.

This is for Avi, Bernardona and everyone to contemplate. This is the research I have gathered on the The Great Pyramid of Giza and it would be interesting to have other people's opinions. My belief is that if the pyramid was not built by star people, the people that built it certainly knew how to get to the stars. The knowledge they have left us is what I believe was their mission statement for coming to the earth. Personally, I think they came here to seed the earth and this is their autograph so-to-speak. But everyone will have their own ideas. 1. It is 3/60th of a single degree of true north 2. It weighs 6 million tons 3. Its footprint is 13 acres 4. It is more than 755.9 feet along each side 5. The Great Pyramid is 146.75 m high, its height X a million equals the distance from the Earth to the sun 6. It has more than 2.3 million individual blocks of stone 7. It is locked into the Cardinal dimensions of our planet; The dimensions of the Earth are incorporated into its dimensions 8. If you take the height and multiply it by 43,200 you get the polar radius of the Earth 9. If you measure the base perimeter of the pyramid accurately and multiply that measurement by 43,200 you get the equatorial circumference of the Earth 10. The scale is not random, the number 43,200 is derived from a key motion of the Earth, which is called the precession of the Earth’s axis 11. The Earth wobbles on its axis very slowly at the rate of 1 degree every 72 years; 43,200 is a multiple of 72; 600 X 72 12. The Great Pyramid of Giza gives us the dimensions of the planet on a scale defined by the planet itself 13. There are several 70-ton blocks of granite from a quarry 500 kilometers away, one of hardest stones, raised 300 feet above the ground 14. It has eight sides, and at the spring equinox and the autumn equinox one side of the pyramid is in the shade in the morning and again in the late afternoon and can only be seen from the air 15. It is a calendar 16. It has expansion joints 17. It is located at the exact intersection of the longest line of latitude and the longest line of longitude of the Earth, in other words The Great Pyramid is located at the precise center of the Earth’s land mass 18. The builders possessed highly sophisticated knowledge of mathematics and geometry and they had knowledge of the true dimensions of the Earth to extreme precision 19. The builders possessed exceptionally advanced technical instrumentation (laser guided surveying tools?) to site The Great Pyramid 20. Pi = C over D Phi = Divided by 5 + 1 over 2. Archimedes discovered Pi about 250 BC, but Egyptians knew of it 2,250 years earlier 21. If you subtract the inner circle of the base from the outer circle around the base (the circumference of The Great Pyramid), you get the speed of light in meters to four decimal points: 299,792,458 meters per second 22. The weight of The Great Pyramid is 5,273, 000 tons and that multiplied by a billion is the weight of the Earth 23. The three inner rooms; the king’s chamber, the queen’s chamber and the unfinished chamber under the pyramid are proportional to the distances between Mercury, Venus and the Earth 24. The distance from The Great Pyramid to the North Pole is the same as the distance from The Great Pyramid to the center of the Earth 25. If you divide the perimeter of the pyramid by 1/2 its height the result is 3.14 Pi h/2 = Pi 26. The base side length is 364.242 which is exactly the time in days it takes for the earth to orbit the sun 27. The high chamber is built on a double square, which leads us to the golden ratio geometry 28. Pyramids in China, Mexico and Egypt align with the Orion star system

Avi Loeb is so inspiring, thank you for all your work and persistence, your work has made me very happy, which I guess is odd but it helps me know that there is always something new to learn and be prepared for something you don’t expect. I feel like humans are programmed to expect things which is possibly why some people cant cope with the new

Wow...wow,what an amazing conversation...what a delightful Bernardo Kastrup...wow... Thank you

Excellent as ever many thanks! To me it seemed that despite all the claims that they don’t disagree about very much etc they in fact appeared to have fundamentally very different world views - and that whenever Bernardo delicately touched on this Avi closed it down… it would’ve been nice to hear more talk of Bernardo’s idealism, and to hear Avi’s views on this and them debating that - any thoughts on this? Nevertheless marvellous and inspirational

Amazing discussion, I’ll return to this for years to come, wow! Thank you ❤️

I love learning!!!

This truly was a wonderful pairing of minds in the most congenial, respectful and at times humorous way. In addition, I agree podcasts are the best way to garner enough information in the search for greater knowledge. Bernardo ❤ and to Avi, I so appreciated your humor. Thank you both.

Avi Loeb's capacity for critical thinking correlates beautifully with Stephen hawking's ability to do jumping jacks.

Thank you, I agree about the hardship of young scientists and the beaten path, missing the low hanging fruit of the unbeaten path.. As Deepak Chopra shares the new paradigm has to fit into the old. Dialogues like this will support them to hang in there to change the system inside out.

Terrific dialogue, Avi and Bernardo. Kudos! Great minds have done great work in the wilderness.

I'm 15 minutes in--just heard the amazing comparison between scientists and messiahs--and am super excited to make listening to the rest of this the point of the day.

Way to go Fidias! THIS is how a podcast should be. A debate between two extremely smart people who have something to say. Keep it up!

What a great pairing !

Thank you Javier Bardem for bringing the two most esteemed gentlemen on your podcast, we really appreciate it 👏👏👏

Keep up the struggle Avi, haters are gonna hate,

Excellent editing! I wanted them to dive deeper into BK's points about Consciousness to witness Avi's reactions to that.

I enjoyed this discussion, although like some others have noted, it was a largely a one-sided affair. I did find that a little frustrating because whilst Bernardo did ask some great questions, I was expecting some debate in all this, it was too passive for my tastes. Respectful is important and both guys were which was great, but it would have been nice to drill into that conflation angle, and make the obvious distinction that AI and consciousness are not one and the same. That all said, I definitely like Avi Loeb attitude around the importance of a "childlike curiosity", and I will definitely check out more of his content having watched this one.

Avi, do not be downhearted. There are many of us in your camp. Unfortunately, the vast majority of humans are mired in the materialistic world of yesterday and most people, being followers only, can not break free from that. Forget them and carry on with your fantastic work!!!

Brilliant stuff❤❤ thanks for this beauty

Hey Fidias. Can you bring Joscha Bach and Jonathan Pageau on the show. Thanks for the podcast

I'm not convinced at this point that A.I. is creating "new art" or "new knowledge". It does appear to have a very deep "remixing" ability based on its extensive learned beds, and that is certainly a part of knowledge. But the proof (or unproof) of the pudding will be the likes of whether it will come up with alternative treatments for cancer that no medics have thought of, and those treatments rapidly proceed, in short order, to singificant improvements in survival rate, not just 0.1 or 0.2% but 5% or 10% if not 25% or 35%. Then we would really have to sit up and take notice. Another example would be if it figured out somethng in physics as applied to engineering that we absoutely cannot, such as how to harness some kind of anti-gravity effect for propulsion. Again, I see no evidence at this point that AI systems are capable of these things. There is a lot of hype out there. As well, the issue of something so much resembling by its behaviours something that is conscious, that therefore it must BE conscious...is a sketchy argument. Yes, we infer that of our fellow human beings, but it is not in fact clear that life has an alternate path to expressing consciousness. It MIGHT have, but this is by no means certain. Personally, I think it is doubtful we will have a situation where we can't tell the difference between ourselves and our artificial systems. I thnk the differences, while subtle in some respects, will also be pretty obvious in other respects. This is the case now, and I am not seeing any real indications that this is about to change.

Best intro ever :D Great guests too

great combination of guests

Mind blowing and enriching🙂

Anyone know what papers they're referring to regarding Oumuamua and dark comets?

It is strange and elucidating to observe and learn how the topic of non-human intelligence, UAP an such addresses the hole on the hull off the current mainstream science garments, which are deeply tied to politics and force/violence of power human relations...

Very nice

Listen until the end. Extremely important conversation at the end about how misinformation affects both of these guests in their work.

I like Avi but I wish he would let Kastrup finish his thoughts before he interrupts. Every time he is debating Avi on AI vs Consciousness Avi cuts him off before he gets to the main point. Kastrup has PHDs in BOTH computer science AND philosophy and his views are highly useful for a conversation like this. Kastrup is both a scientist as well as a philosopher and is unique in experience to discuss AI vs Consciousness. Shame he wasn’t often allowed to complete his arguments. But with that said this was still a fun debate.

At 22.22, when Avi dodges the criticism of commiting the same thing he earlier criticised. Especially his “then I will know that we got there” comment, is so crazy to me. Seems very ignorant in my opinion .

The creation is always living in the eyes of its creator. This applies to paintings, AI, or carbon-based organisms.

Beautiful

Beautiful honest conversation. The west has lots of great minds discussing the reality of time with the progress of materialistic growth, But the mystical things what are on, and few are not ready to accept the mysterious happening. I have seen the great leader Dalia lama's wisdom at play in India, The catholic religious and believers are heavily into action. Hopefully and ultimately like Bernard says nature works through you and then you have no choice but to accept and endure with humility and peace. Thank you, love and peace to all

I find the discussion about AI and Stephen Hawking fascinating. I think the difference between them is the concept of a ‘soul’ but that is undefined yet something we recognise as an essential element of being human. We just don’t yet know exactly what that is at this point in time. My 2 cents…

What does it mean to violate a law in Japan, delete the video, pretend it never happened, and not release an apology video? Your actions have been widely reported in Japan.

At around 1:30:00 Bernardo gets emotional about something that crushed him. I am missing context, did he explain what he's talking about? I so rarely see him emotional like that, I am very curious...

Great job Fidias - you making your place in heaven!

The principle of will, as an internal force driving progress, has been explored by numerous philosophers such as Plato, Schopenhauer, Spinoza, and Nietzsche. This concept highlights willpower as a fundamental driver of human action and existence. Plato discussed will and desire as central in the pursuit of truth and goodness, guided by reason. Schopenhauer viewed will as the essential force of nature and reality, a blind power behind our desires and actions. Spinoza described desire as the essence of humans, seeing will as determined by external causes yet striving for self-preservation. Nietzsche emphasized the will to power as the motivating force of life's evolution and expression. These perspectives, despite their differences, agree on will as a defining feature of conscious life, distinguishing living beings from artificial intelligence. AI, as currently understood, lacks inherent desires or will; it operates based on parameters set by its creators, unable to evolve or adapt independently. This fundamental distinction underscores the limits of AI in replicating the complexity of conscious experience found in living entities.

It’s terrifying to think psychologists would have any influence on AI.

So Ph Ds and being good at math don't guarantee making people smarter. Avi Loeb completely missed the points Bernado made. I stopped watching around 30 min.

01:03:17 "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." ― Frank Zappa

1:19:12 .. This is why cats appear to have 9 lives. .. They jump to a nearby paralell universe where they don't die. People are like that also. .. The Aliens showed me this. Although there are only 6-8 nearby parallel universes. This jump is achieved through consciousness. .. I've done it. Every anecdote is a data point AND every data point is an anecdote.

Sorry but the CERN accelerator was necessary to open the dimensional portal for SHIVA to enter our material world. SHIVA comes to monitor the current APOCALYPSE. I crossed HAWKING in a pub of Cambridge UK around 1999.

We have and use emotions as a buffer for decision making. Without them..we wouldn't jump up to say or do the things we do. Im not wanting to hate on Loeb. Ive always liked him. Here tho, it feels like he is... programmed.

OUMUAMUA came to trig a spark of lucidity in humanity's reflexion. Think about the probabilities for such a event ?

I'm not sure why there's so much animosity against Avi. Post the 30-minute mark, the conversation gets a lot friendlier and lighthearted, they agree on many points. Avi seems like a nice guys, people should calm down

Interesting conversation; too many ads!

Sobresaliente! If god is an alien the maga would gun him down. -Thank you Bernardo and Avi - very artistic presentation - sorry there are so many non curious persons- You both are doing the pondering for the future species- love the conjugation of physics and idealism - yes combining science with not only religion but with the humanities, philosophy, psychiatry - like Avi said a universe for the goos the true the beautiful - A NEW SPECIES - ELEMENTOS ESPÍRITUS ! Much like the vision of CHARDIN! Don’t let the dumb critics - make you lose your curiosity as Bernardo his authenticity!

Let us test CHAT GP5’s CONSCIOUSNESS like the emerit professor Stanislas DEHAENE ( Neuropsychology chair at Collège de France)does, in his scientific experiences on human subjects, by asking : “ Are you CONSCIOUS ? “ and here is CHAT GPT5’s answer : “ As an AI assistant, I do not possess consciousness or self-awareness. I am a program designed to process and generate text based on algorithms and data inputs. My responses are generated based on patterns and rules programmed into me by developers."

"When you find a partner it gives meaning to your existence." - Avi Loeb The truth at every level, in any dimension of duality. It's where Saint Augustine lay down his pen; it's where all this rhetoric will cease as we will be full-filled. Meanwhile, Here we are, in excellent company. Thank You! (Bernardo is puzzled as to the reason for his inner sense of meaning. I would say that an 'inner conjunctionem' has existed in his soul from the beginning of his life on earth. The inner marriage of yin and yang, the divine partnership that defines our wholeness.)

Paga ya lo que has engañado en mi tierra 🎌🙌🏻. Sin vergüenza

Really... If a top chap ( I hope) like mr lobe opens his truth up to give us a few more, then started being bashed then all hope is lost...

Avi, you are stellar!!! I am glad you are not alone and have someone like Bernardo supporting and sharing your thoughts. We need scientists like you guys to help the world advance otherwise I think we will be heading to an extinction event given the way politics drive the world! Keep on and hope will be able to support as people Charles Hoskinson did and do

Unless you want to hear Avi Loeb plug and contradict himself for two hours straight, skip this one. Kastrup was disappointingly submissive. Gotta credit him, though, for finding common ground where there was very little.

Advertisements took up more time than actual content!

Loeb is, sadly, less than impressive.

😊

Why would governments spend resources researching something they already know...especially if they don't want others to know

Interesting….he does not seem to realize we are metaphysical consciousness

I hope Avi's family in Israel is safe & sound after the terrorist attacks earlier this month. Been very concerned if he was affected.

Simulating flirting is not the same as flirting. It's an awful metaphor he's using to make an argument with this Hawking limit. Comes off as batshit crazy to me, in terms of a broken logic.

How to determine if an AI system has consciousness? How about asking do you have consciousness? If the AI system answers yes, it is either telling the truth, or lying. If it is lying, it must be programmed to do so. But this can be analysed and tested by creating more similar systems, etc. So far we know very well what an AI system is and how it works and where it gets its information from.

Some of Avi Loebs perceptions are...dumb...vague.. ambiguous

😅😅😅, Bernardo is wonderfull

Avi Loeb does not at all get the hard problem of consciousness. He has not even gotten started on the problem. Does not even know what the problem is. He's very advanced in astrophysics, but on the hard problem of consciousness, he is no more advanced than a child. He should be embarrassed, but he doesn't know enough about the problem even to be embarrassed.

wow loeb truly does not shut up.

I find Avi argomentation so naïve that I've lost interest in him, he couldn't handle the difference between conscious experience and the apparent conscious aspect of an intelligent system

Avi is so handsome 😘

The host is hilarious 😅😊

1:30:22 still found nothing

Avi Loeb talks way too much and it’s a lot of self contradicting none sense unfortunately

What is the point of the blue-haired guy in the middle?

"Baby universe" feels a bit "mad scientist". ✌

AI!!? Avi? 😢 Why the obsession with GPT?

Metafísica é uma prática espiritual, não consciente ! Mude então o contexto ou o argumento!

Big fan of BOTH..But see complexity does not equal concsiuosness..Look at the Amoeba its concious , builds a house like structure and is biologically simple. Complex computers may emulate conciousness but its not the same. Whoever it is that is OBSESSED with attacking Avis papers is a lunatic.

Is it true that you committed a crime in Japan? Is it true that you took free rides and stole food without paying? Is it true that you haven't apologized yet?

Loeb is a grifter and should not be taken seriously.

× million respect to Avi Loeb.🫶🦾

NICE! i love these two as BRILLIANT examples of kooky, sellout, borderline scammer "scientists" (and "philosophers") this conversation seems rife with opportunity to showcase the polemics these scammers engage in. thank you ! (just to be clear: Mr. Kastrup is absolutely super well versed, and knowledgeable AND puts forth good arguments..... for the most part. Avi- on the other hand- is FULL kook mode. he is probably in debt or dying, so he's scammin! good for him! another wonderful Harvard fruit!)

The metabolism argument might be imho one of the weakest I’ve heard as a means to tell whether or not an entity can support consciousness. It’s not too dissimilar to those scholastics argument that wanted to prove the nature of something by attribution of its self as a property. A sleeping pill would make you sleep by means of its having “sleeping properties”. In other words, a mere truism with no new insights. Cheers

It's a shame that Avi doesn't (apparently) treat conciousness with the same seriousness/scientific vigour that he gives to concepts like Plenty, Pride and Messianic interventions...and hard to take the advocation of even more essentially (globally) useless 'technology' (in fact an expensive, in all regards, sophisticated digital Ego/ID device) that some actually joyfully choose to tag themselves with... Galileo may be the only publically acknowledged gov sanctioned project 'investigating' UAP but why not even make reference to all the black budget R&D that has been going on for years... there is slick distraction going here....

Attached to their ego trying to show off, trying to be the adult expert in the room, like Sabine Hossenfelder?

Loeb disappointed me on numerous occasions. Many of his views seemed contrary to one another.

“I don’t think free will is a red herring”…. You didn’t explain or reason why it is a red herring when avi compared free will to randomness…. If you say it is a red herring, you need to give us a logical reason….

Well imho, for a smart guy, Avi is not very intelligent, and full of hubris, 33:23 this is as much as I can tolerate.

Avi Loeb is just like most scientists, he thinks he is being philosophically deep, but...

He is assuming happiness and peace are the most important things. Huge fallacy.

technology created by human beings with all their frailties is going to save us save from ourselves!?!?!? Good Luck. 😂😂😂

Let's hurry to the pig box.

So sad.