I work in remote locations all across the state of Alaska - my bear defense preferences are; 12 gauge loaded with slugs for brush and in a camp, and the .45-70 loaded with hardcast +P rounds when I'm on open tundra or terrain with good visibility. I almost prefer the .45-70 because it's also an awesome moose round. Full disclosure though: I haven't had to kill any bear in self-defense yet, I've been both exceptionally lucky and very careful.
Some tell stories about charging big bears to show their bravery. The wise know that usually happens with defecating in your pants at the same time. The truly wise would prefer not to have an experience.
@@paulreid7129 I certainly wouldn’t use it - penetration is the name of the game, I like a jacketed sabot slug myself. I’ve only seen a grizzly turn from a charge once, and that was because of a dog I had with me; meanwhile I was fighting with the 7.5” barrel on my Ruger Super Redhawk. Never count on a bear being spooked or turned by anything other than a kill shot.
I'd go with the 12 gauge. It did more damage and transfered more energy. A 3 inch 1.5 Oz slug is a big, heavy powerful round. I'd feel pretty comfortable in Bear territory with a Shotgun loaded with Breneke Black Magic Magnum slugs.
Yes, I was surprised the revolver penetrated so much farther. My guess before watching was that the rifle would prevail, but not by much. Now I want an in-depth presentation from Paul Harrell.
I was wondering if the shotgun and rifle projectiles were moving too fast for their own good for this test. Just too much velocity at point-blank for the projectile construction.
To even up the comparison a long barrel for the 500S&Wmag would be interesting. Maybe the Big Horn Armory Model 89 lever gun? Other than the one you have with you, I'm still not for sure which bullet style, caliber and firearm combination is best. I'm more concerned with a defensive aspect over the hunting scenario, if that matters when comparing all options. Also, a little more concerned with Brown Bears than Black Bears, not to underestimate any wild animal's capabilities.
I used to think these plate tests were useless but as a standardized disposable medium it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for all the data and enjoyment I get from your channel mate.
Seems like the 12ga had more punch, as it moved the rear cinder block more than the other two loads. I'm sure the soft lead, as well as diameter, limited the penetration. I prefer 12ga magnum slugs. Seems to me there's more damage crested. However, I am very impressed by the other two. Thank you tons for this video
Yea, I was confused about the 45-70 not penetrating the farthest with the longer barrel more velocity? The hard cast in the 500 would make sense, I suppose?
I agree with your conclusion for hunting. But for emergencies and self defense against a big bear, I'll take the 12 gauge in a good pump. Even big bears are soft skinned. The energy dump on that 12 gauge was truly impressive. As expected.
I would pick the 4570 also, but use a harder bullet that would hold together at mag loads. I think if it had not disintegrated, it would have given the 500 a run for it's money. I had a Ruger #1 for many years and it did incredible things with heavy reloads and hard cast bullets. Great vid, thanks.
@@Key5ser5oze "hunting" a bear and "stopping" a bear charging are completely different as well. Hunting the bear doesn't know you're there and a bow doesn't produce a shock wave like a gun... There bear just sorta bleeds out and wanders off like "WTF just happened to me". A pissed off bear will definitely chase your ass up a tree and run faster than dogs through woods.... That is when you need a gun....a bow is not the weapon of choice since it's likely to maul you before it bleeds out. Hitting a running bear is extremely difficult anyway.
Even though the .500 penetrated much further in... you can see it did not have the expansion of energy as the 12 gauge and .45 70 which leads me to believe the later two would have probably stopped a charging bear more effectively. I can be wrong on this, please feel free to correct me!
I think all of them have been proven to stop bears, just a 12 gauge can do it for 1/4 the price. Not to mention before the pandemic you could pick up the ammo from any Walmart for less than a 1/4 the price.
I love lever guns esp Marlins and the .45-70 is an outstanding choice but in big brown/mountain grizzly country I think I’d have to go with a 12 gauge pump for my defensive choice. It’s a toss up, but I like the power those bear slugs put out and I think under duress it might be easier to short stroke a lever action rifle than a pump shottie. Love your videos man🐻👍
Very interesting! The impact of all these rounds was impressive. Couldn't help notice how the 12 gauge slug blew all the plates off the table. It takes a lot of force to push such a large object through those plates. Impressive all the way around. Thank you!
@@WHOTEEWHO You're welcome. I've been stocking up on 00 buckshot and slugs for home defense so your 'Bear Rounds" feature caught my attention. Besides, I've been wondering about loads for dangerous game.
The much larger shock to the rear cinder block from the 12 gauge gives a good indication of the power. Keep in mind that a 12 gauge's .79 caliber is also having to move quite a bit more paper to penetrate than a 45 or 50. Sort of like comparing a sledgehammer to a nail. A nail will penetrate more, but which one is delivering more energy?
Hollow points are NOT grizzly bullets! Grizzly flesh is the second densest on earth. (Cape Buffalo being 1st).The hollow points blow up almost immediately NOT reaching the vitals, nor being able to bone shatter & keep traveling on through. Granted, the wound will kill the bear eventually but not before it kills you. Thats why the hard cast WFN Hot/heavy loads are better. Keep their bone shattering & penetration abilities & the Wide Flat Nose still has tremendous shock wave energy. Ive used both in my 45/70. The 350 grain H.P. simply blew up right under the skin. The Hard cast WFN went stem to stern while destroying everything in its path. Stopped just under the rear flank fur on a 10 ft (Squared ) black bear & dropped it like a sack of rocks @ 100 yds charging. 420 grain WFN pumped up to 2100 FPS. Buffalo Bore loads a 430 grain WFN @ 2000 FPS whose terminal ballistics were almost identical. The 500 surprised me! Loaded w proper HEAVY Hard Cast WFNs would be amazing! Maybe even better than the 45/70... Go figure!!! Ive switched up from a 44 mag w 320 grain WFNs to the 454 Casul. Havent had a chance to get the hot heavy bear slugs for it yet but its lightest loads beat my 44s BEST loads. If u can, get the Hot/heavy Buffalo Bore loads & repeat the test only w soaked paper plates if possible to simulate the hydraulic shock effect too. Pretty impressive vid there bud in any case. Always a pleasure!!
tie oneon , 20 guage? maybe if the bears small & your using slugs. Better than a 44? Again, depends on the loading used. I carry a 45/70 w HOT WFN hard casts but I live in Alaska & our bears are HUGE. The short bbl bear pump shotguns w BRENNEKE bear slugs is common choice there for close "in your face" action & my backup was a 44 mag with 320 grain WFN HOT loaded slugs but Ive recently switched up to the 454. The handgun is just a backup if the bear takes your rifle away from you or your down & can shoot it in the face. You can kill most bears w a 22 rimfire if its a perfect eye shot or up the nose into the brain. But for body shots I go for BIG & HOT! Dont like head shots because i mount the skulls above our cabins door to greet visitors with. But in an ATTACK wouldnt hesitate a blink if I had to.
tie oneon , Your in more danger living in town. Home invasions, drunk drivers, tweakers, ect. Out in the bush if your neighbors give u any trouble u just shoot em & eat em. Course, our neighbors all have 4 legs. 😁
Had hard cast bullets been used (which is usually recommended for bear) I think the 45-70 would have faired a lot better. Great video. Thanks for putting in the work.
I’d still go with the 12 gauge. It’s not just penetration your looking for it’s wound size. And if you used hard cast rounds in the 45-70 or 500 you probably would of shot straight through it.
I Live in Bear county and I'll tell you from personal experience, if you run into a Bear at close-range you're going to need to shoot something that makes BIG HOLES. Most of the time I carry a 12 ga. With 3 inch slugs . They work. / Great video 👍
It's the kinetic energy that you're looking for. AKA stopping power! 12 Guage slugs are great up close or a charging grizzly. But aren't worth a dam over a hundred yards!
I know a genuine "Native" Gal from Alaska. And back home in the center of Bear County she wares a .44 magnum revolver just to walk around in her own back yard. She says the neighbors all carry .44 mag. Carbines! Guess that's where all them nice Rugers ended up!
Bill Elt I hunt with a .405 Win, .45-70 Gvnt, .500 S&W, or a .300 WM. The .405 is T/C Encore, in .45-70 I carry a H&R Buffalo Rifle or Marlin 1895 Cowboy, the .500 in a NEF Handi-Rifle with 22” brl, for use in hvy brush! The .300 WM, Savage 110. I reload the .45-70 with 405 gr Cast Performance Heat Treated Solids. The .500 I reload with 370gr CP HTS. The .300 with 180gr X-Bullets. I coat all Cast Performance bullets with Lee’s Liquid Alox. I get no leading in the bores! For Back/up I carry a Ruger Bisley.44 Rem Mag or a S&W M25 in .45 Colt. Both reloaded with Cast Performance HT Solids. The .44 with 240 gr, the .45 with 260 gr.
Michael Hedgepeth I don’t know of a 45-70 magnum either but manufacturers do sell “magnum loads” for 45-70. Kind of like a +P, will fit in any firearm chambered for it but may not be safe in any firearm chambered for it.
Thre is a point of no return thus no net gain i velocity with pistol cartridges. All the powder burns in the barrel at a certain length and after that point, friction takes it's toll and a drop if of velocity.
@@denisdegamon8224 They make lever guns for the .460 and .500 s&w and the gains are crazy. In fact the .460 out shines the 45-70 with 300 gr. Or less. The .500 is an animal in the lever gun. (Bighorn arms)
My issue with the magnums and heavy guns is from my experience as a guide on the family ranch. Guys that came out with a heavy guns always shot poorly. I think they flinch. Which makes for more wounding of animals. Bad placement. One guy kept missing hogs. He had brought a second gun that was a .223 and I suggested that he take it. He immediately took the hog cleanly. Most guys won't admit it but unless they are well experienced with the magnums and shoot a lot they flinch and make for poor in the humanity area hunters. Just my thoughts. Placement is more important than power. Of course I am not saying use a 22 short. Ha ha
If you are going to use a gun that has a lot of kick it is best to practice with it before hunting with it because you are right you have to get over flinching. I hunt deer in a shotgun zone & had to overcome flinching. Also shot placement is key, but if I had to pick one of the three, I would pick the 12 gage because it will put more of the energy into the animal instead of through it.
The construction of the bullet makes all the Diff in these kinda of tests and actual penetration, the .500 magnum bullet was the tougher bullet, the 45-70 with a heat treated hardcast bullet is truly amazing on penetration.
@John Twelvegage dropped multiple deer where they stood with basic Remington 1oz rifled HP slugs between 80-110 yards. You can reach out with 12 gauge if you practice
12 gauge, Cheap, manageable recoil , heavy , gets the job done. Also, if bear decides after charging to NOT to get in your personal space then they won't get shot.
I live in the U. S. Northeast. Our bears here are nowhere near grizzly size, so a 45LC is more than enough gun. I carry a 45-70 - just because that is the rifle I happen to have. No magnum rounds or high powered horse play. My hip carry choice is a 44 mag. Again, it is enough.
I love the marlin 45-70 gbl. I carry it often. I put a red dot site on mine. It will take you anywhere you want to go. It isn't a long range gun but for the range that's available. It's devastating. Where I live all my shots are going to be 20 to 75 yards in the type of woods we have. peace out.
[whoa] that brennike was *brutal* - I mean, medieval as in "carve'm up, hang'em high, and burn'em on the stake" brutal. Lever action is old school, so *yeeeeeeeehaw* !!! The 4570 casing is so, so _shiny_ . . . Hope you kept it :) Oh, the S&W, so easy on the eyes, and the .500 magnum bullet is just _murdering_ those plates. All in all: Grizzlies, beware!
Guys, you need to watch "Alaskan Troopers". Every time they had to get a gun for bear and moose protection the Troopers and Game Wardens use mostly 12 gauge shotguns with Black Magic slugs and Marlin 45/70 Guide Guns with 45/70 ammo. Seen at least 7 of 'em use them in the series. What they didn't use was..... pepper spray. Only one used his issue AR-15.
There do Exist From Companies Like Double Tap, Grizzly Cartridge and Buffalo Bore and HSM that Produce Hard Cast Solids that are Quite Potent and Heavy Loads for Dangerous Game Situations. 45-70 is made in some extremely Heavy Loadings and a Marlin Holds a Good Number of Rounds. A Good Quality Pump Shotgun Loaded With Some Potent Slugs is a Good Combo. A Large Frame Revolver in .357, .44, .45 Colt + P, .454, .460 and .500 Using Hard Cast Heavy Bullets is the Way to Go. Always Bring Enough Gun for the Job.
45/70 will out penetrate the others if you back up 25 yards. High velocity rounds take several yards to become stable. The jacket separation is indicative. Use hard cast or other proper ammo and the 45/70 will penetrate more deeply
way back in the day bullet penetration was measured using ⅞" pine boards in a rigid box. Perhaps you may consider using something like that in a future video
Veitnam Veteran. For close encouters of 75 yards or less the 12 gauge pump and a 45 ACP on your side will do the job fine. For longer ranges like 75 to 300 yards you will need a .223/308 or better. The .223 or 308 will be better if you have 75 to 300 yard range encounter. You will need a pistol of some sort but I would not under a 357 Magnum to 45 ACP. The 9MM does not always do the job.
Wow, nice test! I'm really surprised how much the 12g slug and the 4570 disintegrated but the 500 magnum stayed fairly intact! If I'm bear hunting, I think I'd take a semi-auto shotgun with the slugs... or maybe dual wield like your last comparison video!
Blake Hendrix , Bit of advise, get a pump action. WAY more dependable!! Semi autos are nice for bird hunting but like any semi auto prone to jamming. Pumps dont jam. Especially w hot/heavy BEAR loads.
Third Black Bear I killed was with my 45/70 Ruger #1. The Bear weighed about 340 lbs. I used a 405 gr soft point loaded with 52.0 gr of IMR 3031. That old Boar Acted like he was struck with a lighting bolt. He was graveyard dead as I walked up on him. I hit him on the point of the shoulder from about 70 yards. My Yankee cousin killed his with a 25-06. It took him 3 shots. I'm sooo embarrassed! To your point, a 45/70 is Good Medicine for Bears!
12 gauge lightfield sabot slug 3.5" 600gr 1890fps 4759ft.lbs energy can't beat it I love my 45-70 & 500 mag but that 12 gauge is dropping any game every time
Geeza that 12 gauge did some damage. Like u said tho id take my 45-70 i know thats a beast. Good video to watch wasnt thinkin 2 times as many for the 500 mag. But i am a 45-70 junkie. Keep them coming who-tee-who love that stuff
I have yet to obtain a 45-70....had my heart set on a .458 WM, but too expensive. Reportedly, 45-70 can be loaded from very mild, for target shooting with pistol bullets, to almost-.458wm levels, assuming a strong enough gun....
Ya you can get 405 grain hardcasf traveling at 2000 FPS. But keep in mind the 45-70 shots like an ark. So training on low recoil rounds will be way diferent, as much as 12 inches at 50yards. Yes it will bruise up your shoulder nicely, but training on what you would use while hunting is a must.
I still think the 12 gauge is king for “Bear protection”I did a similar test but with cut cardboard squares.My standard Foster slugs actually did better then the bernanky black magic slugs.45/70 I think would be better for hunting.The S@W 500 is cool but it’s a boat anchor,you need a really nice chest rig to carry it around.
The slug is producing more energy and effectively dissipates it into the target. Notice how the whole stack of plates is knocked off the table with the slug. They would all probably do a decent job (although I think most shooters will do better with a long gun under the pressure of a bear charge) but I would bet on a shotgun and a well set up pump offers rapid follow up shots as well
Take a 458 win mag 510grain soft nosed . This would penetrate all those paper plates and the solids will penetrate the entire length of a bear. The 458 Lott would be even better and the 416 rigby would be good for a 100 to 200 yard shot. On the other hand the 375 h&h might just be the best of the lot !
You should look at what a .444 can do. I chose that cal over the 45-70 because of the ballistics. Hornady makes a leverevolution load for that and it's really impressive in the fact that the range is increased a lot
I would choose the .500 on a hiking, camping, or floating trip. For a hunt it's the 45-70 all day. Why the pistol? Because it will be WHERE I need it WHEN I need it, not leaning up against a tree somewhere.
Your test was at point blank range. Realistically, if you were hunting bear you would not want to have a pist off Grizzly bear that close to you. You would probably be dead before you got a shot off. Try the test at 50-yards. A majority of the hunting guides in the Yukon all pack 45-70 lever action rifles to backup their bear hunting clients. Also, try a 3-inch 12-gauge sabot hardened slug in a rifled barrel for a better comparison. Oh, by the way the fly thought there was a picnic and was looking for a free lunch. ;) The paper plates as a medium is brilliant!
I think with this test you should of used the 45-70 hard cast bullet the heaviest one you can get.With the 500 S&W the 700 gr hard cast,that way the bullets would survive.
I am shocked the .500 went through, not just more but Twice as many, WOW! Still take my 45-70 to Alaska when I visit my brother and hunt Elk and Caribou.
These videos are interesting. I was expecting the 45-70 to win this contest. I have heard that a 220 grain 30-06 load is also considered the minimum for grizzly. It would be cool to see how that would fare against 12g, 45-70, and 500 S&W.
The 45-70 is also accurate at 200 yards, whereas the shotgun and revolver are close-up weapons. And if you have a pissed off bear charging your butt, I’d rather not wait for it to get closer to assure an accurate shot. If you ask me, 200 yards is still too close for a pissed off bear. Cuddly Teddy bear, my ass! I have a friend who lost two and a half fingers to a large black bear during a driven deer hunt. The bear felt trapped, and fought his way out. We had to kill the bear. One of the young, eager guys in our party offered to field dress the bear. It was a warm week, and when the young guy cut open the bear’s abdominal wall, the putrid gases from the bear’s diaphragm expelled in the guy’s face. This guy was puking so hard, he couldn’t balance enough to kneel. Ah, the memories…
i'm a bit partial to a pump shotgun with a proper slug, however I just can't get on board with a boat anchor tied to my side. In the event it comes down to me, a bear with a side arm, i'll take accuracy with something just a tad smaller.
And for close protection of bear attack 10mm will also do the trick ! I personally up in Northeast WI. wouldn't use any less than 10mm. Good to see your numbers going up !
Larry Guess Thanks Larry ! I'm even looking at maybe 45. Paul Harrell had some real good results with his 45 against the 10. Its only Black bears.Beleave it or not all different kinds of wolf's up their also. Seen the bears and only heard the wolfs on my Property in N.E. Marionette county Wi.
Give me the 12g with the 500 on my hip. You can see the kinetic energy of the 12ga. by how much it makes the back block jump compared to the others. That alone will make a bear stand and take notice.
10 mm better less recoil hits hard penitrates good with hard cast bigger capacity 5 rounds fired is still only 1/3 mag lighter easy to aim recoil not bad am 69 shoot mine one handed ,am big bore fan pistol rifle you can load light or heavy but ya cant make a little bullet do a big job no matter how fast it goes small fast rock or big ass slow Boulder dead is dead dont realy matter how it got that way
Marlin 1895 SS. They also make a 1895 "Cowboy" with octagon barrel and full length mag tube, and a 1895 "Guide" with an 18.5 inch ported barrel. I believe the US Park service uses the Guide model, loadex with the "light" 430 grain Garrett cartridges for "up close and personal hand shaking distance" on Griz and Brown Bear. (that one is "guaranteed" to shoot ldngthwise through a Cape buffalo. Their heavy 535 grain (note the .458 Win Magnum is "only" 500 grains) is supposed to shoot lengthwise through an adult bull elephant. A guy did use a Marlin guide rifle a few years back to take all 5 of the African Big 5. Garrett had the details on their website.
First off my grizzly gun would be my Winchester model70 in 375 h&h mag. Second that slug dumped a crap ton of energy into those plates and that was awesome to watch. Lastly the 500 mag just WOW!!
You hit it in the knee, you'll have time for a second shot. A guide told me he shot for the front shoulder first on a charging bear. ( Him being off to the side of his party) Which knocked it down. Then he killed it. He had something like a 460 or 475. I really don't remember that many years ago. Bullet sticking out of the cartridge was as big as my thumb.
NOTE: the Brenneke Black Magic is an A+ choice, but the other bullet choices are ridiculous for bear defense...WFNGC, LFNGC, or Belt Mountain Punch bullets are a must in either caliber; both are FAR MORE analogous in construction to the Brenneke, and absolutely needed for penetration into and through heavy bear tissues...✅
The S&W .500 Mag is a total waste of money, ammo is expensive as hell and they are a heavy unbalanced and uncomfortable gun to shoot, save your money a good Ruger Super Redhawk .44 mag will get the job done at half the cost.
If you shoot the 500 S&W from an H&R Handi Rifle, the difference would have been even more pronounced and it would have made it apples to apples, as a handgun always has a disadvantage against a rifle.
For what it is worth, this test tells more about how the projectile was made than about the relative power of the cartridge. If I wanted to compare penetration I would use exactly the same hard-cast projectile components and eliminate hollow-point projectiles all together.
But, is that sling arrangement something you will have prepared all the time, while hiking over large rocks and between trees? Is it just a range setup, under ideal conditions?
I'd be interested to see how the HSM Bear Load stacks up (430gr @ ~1800fps iirc), I imagine the hard cast lead bullets could penetrate much better than the expanding bullets you used
If I'm hunting Alaskan brown bear I don't want to shoot him within shotgun range. I know how fast they can move, I lived in Yakutat, Alaska for a year..
they've been clocked moving straight ahead in sprint runs at 37 mph,they can bring a horse down with one swipe,standing your ground to unload dead center is only recourse,they hunt you or you kill them dead,wounded bear is bad news
I like the 500 mag most of all, but $$$. I have forested property up in Utah I bought a couple of year ago. About every other time I'm there I see a bear (black bear). So I carry my Remington 870 Express magnum loaded with 5 Brenneke 3in magnum black Magic magnum slugs. And a ruger superblackhawk loaded with 6 320gr hardcast loads. I think that should be more than enough power for the lower 48.
Better yet a hard cast, gas checked bullet that is over 405 grains would be better yet. I have cast 500 grain flat nose and 535 grain postell Buffalo bullets that hold togeher and can penetrate a one plus ton Buffalo, shot through both shoulders at over 200 yards. now that is penetration of over 48 inches of thick hide, heavy bone and muscle.
I knew a guy who lived in the boonies in Alaska back in the 80's and his bear gun was 12 gauge-deer slug. A 357 mag or 44 was his side arm. I honestly don't remember that though.
